Celestial and Half-Celestial [Archive] - Wizards Community

Celestial and Half-Celestial [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jachra
05-01-07, 02:06 AM Why is a Half-Celestial stronger than a Celestial?

It smacks to me of the rash of half-vampire half-werewolf junk that's been going around...

I mean, c'mon. You mix a Celestial and a Non-Celestial being and you get a Half-Celestial, who is more powerful than either parent.
Mix two weak critters and all of a sudden the offspring is a superhero?
2 + 2 is apparently 50. (This last may be going a bit far... ;D)
Fireclave
05-01-07, 02:39 AM Seems like a staple of fantasy to me. The offspring of a celestrial being is always destined for greatness. It's like a universal law...or something.
StruckingFuggle
05-01-07, 02:52 AM No, that's not it.

It's a failure of terminology.

"Celestial" creatures are usually extraplanar versions of creatures that dwell in the celestial planes. A Bear from Byopia, for example.

"Half-Celestial", meanwhile, is the direct offspring of a more powerful Celestial outsider, an Archon or an Angel or something like that.
Jachra
05-01-07, 03:53 PM It states explicitly in the creature entry that a Half-Celestial is a result of a Celestial creature mating with a non-Celestial creature. Page 31 of the MM.
Thane26425
05-01-07, 04:05 PM It does look odd at first, but here is how I handle it. If a player wants a half-celestial character, they can have one. They get all the base modifications, like ability increases, immunities and such, plus the ECL increase. However, they don't get the other special abilities, like the spellcasting, unless they advance AS a half-celestial. That is to say, a human half-celestial how pursues a career as a mage gets the base modifications but none of the healing spells and so on as they advance as a mage. If they devoted a few levels to the helf-celestial template, then they would get spells, etc., equal to their template level.
vegetalss4
05-01-07, 04:14 PM i have some other fun
a Half-Celestial is an outsider BUT
a Celestial creature is not
Witch
05-01-07, 04:16 PM It states explicitly in the creature entry that a Half-Celestial is a result of a Celestial creature mating with a non-Celestial creature. Page 31 of the MM.
No, you're confusing terminology.

Let's refer to this sentence, which is how it is explained:

"Celestial creatures can be mistaken for half-celestials, more powerful creatures that are created when a celestial mates with a noncelestial creature."
A Celestial Creature refers to a creature with the Celestial template.
A Celestial refers to an angel, an archon, an eladrin or a guardinal.
A half-celestial refers to an offspring of a celestial (not a celestial creature) and a creature that isn't a true celestial.
Jachra
05-02-07, 12:27 AM Sooo basically it's just dumb terminology.
Witch
05-02-07, 12:39 PM You're allowed your personal opinion on that, ofcourse. It's fairly clear to me, though.
Dragonborn
05-02-07, 01:50 PM You're allowed your personal opinion on that, ofcourse. It's fairly clear to me, though.

Would you also say that a Half-Fiend (a creature with the Half-Fiend template) is a cross between a normal creature a Fiendish creature (a creature with the Fiendish template), and not a normal creature and a Fiend (A Demon, Devil, or other evil outsider)? Except for alignment, the Half-Fiend and Half-Celestial templates are nearly identical.
lint trap
05-02-07, 02:45 PM A celestial creature isn't normally a Celestial, and a fiendish creature isn't normally a Fiend. As Witch said, a celestial creature is a normal creature with a hint of the upper plains in their blood; it's the Aasimar of the animal kingdom. A Half-Whatever is the product of a Celestial or Fiend and a "normal" creature.

Perhaps a more accurate term would be "Celestial-touched template," not "Celestial template."
Jachra
05-03-07, 02:16 AM It's close enough for comfort.
The difference between 'a celestial' and 'a celestial creature,' is only perfectly clear in the warped logic that forms a number of aspects of this game.

After all, would not a Diva be a celestial creature? It is a being of celestial nature, after all.

In order for it to make sense, you need a whole new glossary of terms that only operate under specific circumstances.
Dead_Weasel
05-03-07, 03:01 AM Devas are Angels. Angels are Celestials. Their Celestial nature is stated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm), not implied or intuited.
Jachra
05-03-07, 05:03 AM This does not invalidate my point; indeed, it aids it. It says a half-celestial is the result of a celestial crossed with a non-celestial, which could be interpreted as being a creature with the celestial template.

The only thing that prevents it is the odd mental twists one needs to accept some concepts. The omission of the word 'creature' for instance.

A 'Celestial Creature' refers exclusively to creatures with the Celestial template, so say some earlier. Which is somewhat counter-intuitive, as any celestial being of any sort would be, by definition, a Celestial Creature.
FreAkOuTRG
05-03-07, 06:33 AM This does not invalidate my point; indeed, it aids it. It says a half-celestial is the result of a celestial crossed with a non-celestial, which could be interpreted as being a creature with the celestial template.

The only thing that prevents it is the odd mental twists one needs to accept some concepts. The omission of the word 'creature' for instance.

A 'Celestial Creature' refers exclusively to creatures with the Celestial template, so say some earlier. Which is somewhat counter-intuitive, as any celestial being of any sort would be, by definition, a Celestial Creature.

You think too much.

Did you know? A creature can have both the Celestial and the Half-Celestial templates.
The Vorpal Tribble
05-03-07, 10:37 AM I can't say as I had the slightest difficult understanding it and I know for a fact I think too much.
Jachra
05-03-07, 02:49 PM Not so much thinking too much as thinking differently.

And yeah! It's funny, innit? I wonder what base a half-fiend half-celestial uses...
Domriso
05-03-07, 02:59 PM I treat the celestial template as an acquired template rather than inherited. The way I DM it, half-celestial creatures arise when a creature with the celestial template mates. The reason it is more powerful is that a celestial creature is basically a creature who was tainted with good, but the half-celestial is literally partially celestial because it is part of its blood. For creatures born from actual celestials, such as an archon, I create specialized templates. That way there are differences between the separate species. I do the same thing with fiends.
mvincent
05-03-07, 07:23 PM "Celestial" creatures are usually extraplanar versions of creatures that dwell in the celestial planes. A Bear from Byopia, for example.

"Half-Celestial", meanwhile, is the direct offspring of a more powerful Celestial outsider, an Archon or an Angel or something like that.Makes sense to me. Thank you for the clarification.
Dead_Weasel
05-03-07, 09:41 PM A Celestial Creature is not a Celestial for the same reason an Azer is not an elemental; just because the creature occupies a plane whose natives are of a certain type, does not mean that the creature becomes that type as well. They might change, and probably will as a result of adaptation to their new environment, but this does not mean that in changing they will become exactly the same as the other inhabitants.
Sticking a couple of condors in the middle of the city might force them to evolve into something that is not a condor, but it is unlikely to force them to evolve into pigeons.
I concede that the name of the template describing this process with regard to the planes confuses matters.

As I see it, the logic behind the structure goes like this: the humble platypus is a mammal. At some point in time, long in the past, some kooky DM applied the Avian template to all living platypi (platypuses?). The platypus has characteristics that most mammals do not possess, and most avians do possess. This does not, however, make it an avian. Thus, even when the platypus mates with a non-platypus mammal (bear with me here, I know I am stretching the analogy too far) the resulting offspring, perhaps even possessing some avian-like qualities, is a mammal.

Maybe that is not the logic WotC used, and maybe it does not make sense to you. But that's how I treat the Celestial Creature template.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jachra 05-01-07, 02:06 AM	Why is a Half-Celestial stronger than a Celestial? It smacks to me of the rash of half-vampire half-werewolf junk that's been going around... I mean, c'mon. You mix a Celestial and a Non-Celestial being and you get a Half-Celestial, who is more powerful than either parent. Mix two weak critters and all of a sudden the offspring is a superhero? 2 + 2 is apparently 50. (This last may be going a bit far... ;D)
Fireclave 05-01-07, 02:39 AM	Seems like a staple of fantasy to me. The offspring of a celestrial being is always destined for greatness. It's like a universal law...or something.
StruckingFuggle 05-01-07, 02:52 AM	No, that's not it. It's a failure of terminology. "Celestial" creatures are usually extraplanar versions of creatures that dwell in the celestial planes. A Bear from Byopia, for example. "Half-Celestial", meanwhile, is the direct offspring of a more powerful Celestial outsider, an Archon or an Angel or something like that.
Jachra 05-01-07, 03:53 PM	It states explicitly in the creature entry that a Half-Celestial is a result of a Celestial creature mating with a non-Celestial creature. Page 31 of the MM.
Thane26425 05-01-07, 04:05 PM	It does look odd at first, but here is how I handle it. If a player wants a half-celestial character, they can have one. They get all the base modifications, like ability increases, immunities and such, plus the ECL increase. However, they don't get the other special abilities, like the spellcasting, unless they advance AS a half-celestial. That is to say, a human half-celestial how pursues a career as a mage gets the base modifications but none of the healing spells and so on as they advance as a mage. If they devoted a few levels to the helf-celestial template, then they would get spells, etc., equal to their template level.
vegetalss4 05-01-07, 04:14 PM	i have some other fun a Half-Celestial is an outsider BUT a Celestial creature is not
Witch 05-01-07, 04:16 PM	It states explicitly in the creature entry that a Half-Celestial is a result of a Celestial creature mating with a non-Celestial creature. Page 31 of the MM. No, you're confusing terminology. Let's refer to this sentence, which is how it is explained: "Celestial creatures can be mistaken for half-celestials, more powerful creatures that are created when a celestial mates with a noncelestial creature." A Celestial Creature refers to a creature with the Celestial template. A Celestial refers to an angel, an archon, an eladrin or a guardinal. A half-celestial refers to an offspring of a celestial (not a celestial creature) and a creature that isn't a true celestial.
Jachra 05-02-07, 12:27 AM	Sooo basically it's just dumb terminology.
Witch 05-02-07, 12:39 PM	You're allowed your personal opinion on that, ofcourse. It's fairly clear to me, though.
Dragonborn 05-02-07, 01:50 PM	You're allowed your personal opinion on that, ofcourse. It's fairly clear to me, though. Would you also say that a Half-Fiend (a creature with the Half-Fiend template) is a cross between a normal creature a Fiendish creature (a creature with the Fiendish template), and not a normal creature and a Fiend (A Demon, Devil, or other evil outsider)? Except for alignment, the Half-Fiend and Half-Celestial templates are nearly identical.
lint trap 05-02-07, 02:45 PM	A celestial creature isn't normally a Celestial, and a fiendish creature isn't normally a Fiend. As Witch said, a celestial creature is a normal creature with a hint of the upper plains in their blood; it's the Aasimar of the animal kingdom. A Half-Whatever is the product of a Celestial or Fiend and a "normal" creature. Perhaps a more accurate term would be "Celestial-touched template," not "Celestial template."
Jachra 05-03-07, 02:16 AM	It's close enough for comfort. The difference between 'a celestial' and 'a celestial creature,' is only perfectly clear in the warped logic that forms a number of aspects of this game. After all, would not a Diva be a celestial creature? It is a being of celestial nature, after all. In order for it to make sense, you need a whole new glossary of terms that only operate under specific circumstances.
Dead_Weasel 05-03-07, 03:01 AM	Devas are Angels. Angels are Celestials. Their Celestial nature is stated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm), not implied or intuited.
Jachra 05-03-07, 05:03 AM	This does not invalidate my point; indeed, it aids it. It says a half-celestial is the result of a celestial crossed with a non-celestial, which could be interpreted as being a creature with the celestial template. The only thing that prevents it is the odd mental twists one needs to accept some concepts. The omission of the word 'creature' for instance. A 'Celestial Creature' refers exclusively to creatures with the Celestial template, so say some earlier. Which is somewhat counter-intuitive, as any celestial being of any sort would be, by definition, a Celestial Creature.
FreAkOuTRG 05-03-07, 06:33 AM	This does not invalidate my point; indeed, it aids it. It says a half-celestial is the result of a celestial crossed with a non-celestial, which could be interpreted as being a creature with the celestial template. The only thing that prevents it is the odd mental twists one needs to accept some concepts. The omission of the word 'creature' for instance. A 'Celestial Creature' refers exclusively to creatures with the Celestial template, so say some earlier. Which is somewhat counter-intuitive, as any celestial being of any sort would be, by definition, a Celestial Creature. You think too much. Did you know? A creature can have both the Celestial and the Half-Celestial templates.
The Vorpal Tribble 05-03-07, 10:37 AM	I can't say as I had the slightest difficult understanding it and I know for a fact I think too much.
Jachra 05-03-07, 02:49 PM	Not so much thinking too much as thinking differently. And yeah! It's funny, innit? I wonder what base a half-fiend half-celestial uses...
Domriso 05-03-07, 02:59 PM	I treat the celestial template as an acquired template rather than inherited. The way I DM it, half-celestial creatures arise when a creature with the celestial template mates. The reason it is more powerful is that a celestial creature is basically a creature who was tainted with good, but the half-celestial is literally partially celestial because it is part of its blood. For creatures born from actual celestials, such as an archon, I create specialized templates. That way there are differences between the separate species. I do the same thing with fiends.
mvincent 05-03-07, 07:23 PM	"Celestial" creatures are usually extraplanar versions of creatures that dwell in the celestial planes. A Bear from Byopia, for example. "Half-Celestial", meanwhile, is the direct offspring of a more powerful Celestial outsider, an Archon or an Angel or something like that.Makes sense to me. Thank you for the clarification.
Dead_Weasel 05-03-07, 09:41 PM	A Celestial Creature is not a Celestial for the same reason an Azer is not an elemental; just because the creature occupies a plane whose natives are of a certain type, does not mean that the creature becomes that type as well. They might change, and probably will as a result of adaptation to their new environment, but this does not mean that in changing they will become exactly the same as the other inhabitants. Sticking a couple of condors in the middle of the city might force them to evolve into something that is not a condor, but it is unlikely to force them to evolve into pigeons. I concede that the name of the template describing this process with regard to the planes confuses matters. As I see it, the logic behind the structure goes like this: the humble platypus is a mammal. At some point in time, long in the past, some kooky DM applied the Avian template to all living platypi (platypuses?). The platypus has characteristics that most mammals do not possess, and most avians do possess. This does not, however, make it an avian. Thus, even when the platypus mates with a non-platypus mammal (bear with me here, I know I am stretching the analogy too far) the resulting offspring, perhaps even possessing some avian-like qualities, is a mammal. Maybe that is not the logic WotC used, and maybe it does not make sense to you. But that's how I treat the Celestial Creature template.