celestial charger problem [Archive] - Wizards Community

celestial charger problem [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
savant_warlord13
12-09-05, 06:58 PM why do celestial charger have a lower charisma score than other unicorns?
cwslyclgh
12-09-05, 09:13 PM because they gave it ability scores as a character rather then as a monster... normal monsters abilities are all assumed to be 10 or 11 (3 of each) base plus racial modifiers.

people given abilities as characters recieve either the elite array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 or the non elite array of 13, 12, 11, 10,9,8 as base scores plus racial modifiers (note that the arrays can be applied to the abilities in any order).

as far as the celestial charger specifically is concerned they obviously put the 8 on charisma when they changed from the normal monster ability array to the non-elite array. (and they put the 9 on constitution).
savant_warlord13
12-09-05, 09:16 PM and why would they give something with levels in cleric a low charisma score? that is the second most important stat for clerics!
cwslyclgh
12-09-05, 09:18 PM perhaps because they are not min-maxing powergamers.
savant_warlord13
12-09-05, 09:36 PM that's not powergaming! its common sense!
runestar
12-09-05, 09:59 PM And why does the charger have an LA of +8 while the normal unicorn has a LA of only +4? Shouldn't they both have the same LA of +4?
savant_warlord13
12-09-05, 10:28 PM another good point
cwslyclgh
12-10-05, 03:57 AM that's not powergaming! its common sense!

perhaps who ever made the charger does not agree that charisma is a clerics second most important stat :::shrug::: especialy if you knew that your charisma was going to be 22 anyway...

for instance I can see cleric builds where Con or even Dex would be placed ahead of Charisma simply because of the choices you plan on making later, outside of game circumstances can also play a role, for example if you know that your DM seldom uses undead then a high charisma might be wasted points.

And why does the charger have an LA of +8 while the normal unicorn has a LA of only +4? Shouldn't they both have the same LA of +4? No because the celestail charger is a unicorn with the celestial template + cleric levels (it still seems off though, the celestial template adds +2 LA, so it would appear that the celestial charger should have a +6 LA)
runestar
12-10-05, 06:54 AM No because the celestail charger is a unicorn with the celestial template + cleric levels (it still seems off though, the celestial template adds +2 LA, so it would appear that the celestial charger should have a +6 LA)

What template :confused: Its simply a elite unicorn advanced to 8HD with 7 lvs of cleric(even its cr reflects this accurately). Nowhere in its stats do I see the existance of any template.

Also, I believe even if said template was used, its LA would be +4 rather than +2(it seems odd that MM would use material from BOED instead of material located in another section of the same book). But this is unrelated. The point is that the LA of the charger should remain the same.
cwslyclgh
12-10-05, 03:40 PM What template :confused: Its simply a elite unicorn advanced to 8HD with 7 lvs of cleric(even its cr reflects this accurately). Nowhere in its stats do I see the existance of any template. You are simply wrong. It clearly states that "the celestial charger described here is a 8 HD celestial unicorn with seven levels of cleric." not only that but if you look at the stats you will see the DR 10/magic, reisitance to acid, cold, and electricity 10, smite evil, and SR 20, all of which come from the celestial template, and not stuff that normal unicorns possess.

Also, I believe even if said template was used, its LA would be +4 rather than +2(it seems odd that MM would use material from BOED instead of material located in another section of the same book). But this is unrelated. The point is that the LA of the charger should remain the same.The celestial template is locted not in the BoED but in the minster manual on page 31. it has a LA of +2, all leveal adjustments from templates base races and what have you stack, there for it should most definatly not have the same LA. (although as I said before it appears the LA should be +6 not +8).
runestar
12-10-05, 10:36 PM Ahh.... :embarrass How could I have missed the application of the celestial template? But yeah, it does not change the fact that the LA is miscalculated. :P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
savant_warlord13 12-09-05, 06:58 PM	why do celestial charger have a lower charisma score than other unicorns?
cwslyclgh 12-09-05, 09:13 PM	because they gave it ability scores as a character rather then as a monster... normal monsters abilities are all assumed to be 10 or 11 (3 of each) base plus racial modifiers. people given abilities as characters recieve either the elite array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 or the non elite array of 13, 12, 11, 10,9,8 as base scores plus racial modifiers (note that the arrays can be applied to the abilities in any order). as far as the celestial charger specifically is concerned they obviously put the 8 on charisma when they changed from the normal monster ability array to the non-elite array. (and they put the 9 on constitution).
savant_warlord13 12-09-05, 09:16 PM	and why would they give something with levels in cleric a low charisma score? that is the second most important stat for clerics!
cwslyclgh 12-09-05, 09:18 PM	perhaps because they are not min-maxing powergamers.
savant_warlord13 12-09-05, 09:36 PM	that's not powergaming! its common sense!
runestar 12-09-05, 09:59 PM	And why does the charger have an LA of +8 while the normal unicorn has a LA of only +4? Shouldn't they both have the same LA of +4?
savant_warlord13 12-09-05, 10:28 PM	another good point
cwslyclgh 12-10-05, 03:57 AM	that's not powergaming! its common sense! perhaps who ever made the charger does not agree that charisma is a clerics second most important stat :::shrug::: especialy if you knew that your charisma was going to be 22 anyway... for instance I can see cleric builds where Con or even Dex would be placed ahead of Charisma simply because of the choices you plan on making later, outside of game circumstances can also play a role, for example if you know that your DM seldom uses undead then a high charisma might be wasted points. And why does the charger have an LA of +8 while the normal unicorn has a LA of only +4? Shouldn't they both have the same LA of +4? No because the celestail charger is a unicorn with the celestial template + cleric levels (it still seems off though, the celestial template adds +2 LA, so it would appear that the celestial charger should have a +6 LA)
runestar 12-10-05, 06:54 AM	No because the celestail charger is a unicorn with the celestial template + cleric levels (it still seems off though, the celestial template adds +2 LA, so it would appear that the celestial charger should have a +6 LA) What template :confused: Its simply a elite unicorn advanced to 8HD with 7 lvs of cleric(even its cr reflects this accurately). Nowhere in its stats do I see the existance of any template. Also, I believe even if said template was used, its LA would be +4 rather than +2(it seems odd that MM would use material from BOED instead of material located in another section of the same book). But this is unrelated. The point is that the LA of the charger should remain the same.
cwslyclgh 12-10-05, 03:40 PM	What template :confused: Its simply a elite unicorn advanced to 8HD with 7 lvs of cleric(even its cr reflects this accurately). Nowhere in its stats do I see the existance of any template. You are simply wrong. It clearly states that "the celestial charger described here is a 8 HD celestial unicorn with seven levels of cleric." not only that but if you look at the stats you will see the DR 10/magic, reisitance to acid, cold, and electricity 10, smite evil, and SR 20, all of which come from the celestial template, and not stuff that normal unicorns possess. Also, I believe even if said template was used, its LA would be +4 rather than +2(it seems odd that MM would use material from BOED instead of material located in another section of the same book). But this is unrelated. The point is that the LA of the charger should remain the same.The celestial template is locted not in the BoED but in the minster manual on page 31. it has a LA of +2, all leveal adjustments from templates base races and what have you stack, there for it should most definatly not have the same LA. (although as I said before it appears the LA should be +6 not +8).
runestar 12-10-05, 10:36 PM	Ahh.... :embarrass How could I have missed the application of the celestial template? But yeah, it does not change the fact that the LA is miscalculated. :P