Celestial Lion entry in MM [Archive] - Wizards Community

Celestial Lion entry in MM [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Martryn
11-15-04, 07:49 PM Take a look at it. Does it make sense? The base attack should be +7, should it not, due to it being a magical beast. :confused: Or is there something I'm overlooking in the augmented animal, or something. :confused:

It has 7 HD so it should have a base attack of +7, as per fighter. And with a STR of 21, that's a +5 bonus. :confused: You have a claw attack at +12. Right. Or does it have 5 HD. Don't have MM with me, but chesk it out and tell me what I'm not seeing. The claw attack should be like +10 or something, not +7. Eh? :confused: :confused:
Count Arioch the 28th
11-15-04, 07:52 PM It's an augmented animal, so they're probably giving it animal BaB instead of magical beast BaB.

Now, as to which one is correct, I actually don't know.
Martryn
11-15-04, 08:02 PM I figured that because its stats are exactly identical to a regular lions. It is a pressing concern though because I gave the paladin character in my game a celestial lion mount (paladin of Nobanion, FR). I really need to know which one you are supposed to use. The editing in the book sucks. I can't tell what's going on and where they get their numbers half the time.
cwslyclgh
11-15-04, 08:25 PM a template only makes the changes that the template says to make, if a template is supposed to have you recalculte attack bonus saves, and skill points based upon the new type it tells you so. however if you were to advance that creature HD after the template was applied it would get the benifits of being a magical beast and its BAB would advance at a 1:1 ratio.
Morwen
11-15-04, 08:35 PM A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of the new type, but the features of the original.

Since one of the features of "animal" is 3/4 BAB progression, that's the BAB you use with a Magical Beast that is an Augmented Animal. In other words, the Celestial Lion entry has the correct BAB.

You can find this out by looking in the MM glossary.
Nuntius128
11-15-04, 11:52 PM I think it would have to deal with how a Lion becomes a Celestial Lion. The template itself wouldn't add any BAB, however, if its a Paladins Mount, that would mean that it was Celestial at birth, so it would've been a Magical Beast from the get go, with Magical Beast BAB from its first HD. I think that it would definitely have the Magical Beast BAB progression, and not Animal BAB. However, if a Lion were to somehow become Celestial by a god's will, its BAB wouldn't change. I'd say you're right, and yes, they could use some better proofreading, or explain their templates better.
ieattrollsforbreakfast
11-16-04, 07:06 AM I think it would have to deal with how a Lion becomes a Celestial Lion. The template itself wouldn't add any BAB, however, if its a Paladins Mount, that would mean that it was Celestial at birth, so it would've been a Magical Beast from the get go, with Magical Beast BAB from its first HD. I think that it would definitely have the Magical Beast BAB progression, and not Animal BAB. However, if a Lion were to somehow become Celestial by a god's will, its BAB wouldn't change. I'd say you're right, and yes, they could use some better proofreading, or explain their templates better.

While this could work from a flavour point of view it doesnt agree with the rules as written. Templates, inherited or aquired, do not alter the features of the base creature at all other than what is specified in the entry. The celestial lion, born celestial or not, will have the BAB of a normal lion.
Nuntius128
11-16-04, 10:10 AM While this could work from a flavour point of view it doesnt agree with the rules as written. Templates, inherited or aquired, do not alter the features of the base creature at all other than what is specified in the entry. The celestial lion, born celestial or not, will have the BAB of a normal lion.

Very true. It would only be a flavor thing. But, it could use some clearing up, for the sake of this post.
Raven Dark
11-16-04, 10:15 AM ...however, if you were to advance that creature's HD after the template was applied it would get the benefits of being a Magical Beast and its BAB would advance at a 1:1 ratio.

No it wouldn't. It would continue to advance at an Animal's BAB progression.
Martryn
11-16-04, 11:30 AM Crap, this is complicated. So, despite the magical beast stuff, that's only there for show, It gets all stats and skills and feats and saves and BAB as an animal? Got you. Boy, is he going to be disappointed.
fistanthius
11-16-04, 11:57 AM The section on templates in the back of the MM says that a template does not change the base attack bonus, unless the template has an entry for base attack/grapple. In the case of Celestial, it does not so the bab stays the same, even though the type changes to extraplanar magical beast (if on the prime)
Morwen
11-16-04, 03:33 PM Crap, this is complicated. So, despite the magical beast stuff, that's only there for show, It gets all stats and skills and feats and saves and BAB as an animal? Got you. Boy, is he going to be disappointed.
No, it's not just for show. The Magical Beast type awards the creature the traits of Magical Beast, but since it has the subtype Augmented Animal, it gets the features of Animal. See the MM glossary to figure out what that means.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Martryn 11-15-04, 07:49 PM	Take a look at it. Does it make sense? The base attack should be +7, should it not, due to it being a magical beast. :confused: Or is there something I'm overlooking in the augmented animal, or something. :confused: It has 7 HD so it should have a base attack of +7, as per fighter. And with a STR of 21, that's a +5 bonus. :confused: You have a claw attack at +12. Right. Or does it have 5 HD. Don't have MM with me, but chesk it out and tell me what I'm not seeing. The claw attack should be like +10 or something, not +7. Eh? :confused: :confused:
Count Arioch the 28th 11-15-04, 07:52 PM	It's an augmented animal, so they're probably giving it animal BaB instead of magical beast BaB. Now, as to which one is correct, I actually don't know.
Martryn 11-15-04, 08:02 PM	I figured that because its stats are exactly identical to a regular lions. It is a pressing concern though because I gave the paladin character in my game a celestial lion mount (paladin of Nobanion, FR). I really need to know which one you are supposed to use. The editing in the book sucks. I can't tell what's going on and where they get their numbers half the time.
cwslyclgh 11-15-04, 08:25 PM	a template only makes the changes that the template says to make, if a template is supposed to have you recalculte attack bonus saves, and skill points based upon the new type it tells you so. however if you were to advance that creature HD after the template was applied it would get the benifits of being a magical beast and its BAB would advance at a 1:1 ratio.
Morwen 11-15-04, 08:35 PM	A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of the new type, but the features of the original. Since one of the features of "animal" is 3/4 BAB progression, that's the BAB you use with a Magical Beast that is an Augmented Animal. In other words, the Celestial Lion entry has the correct BAB. You can find this out by looking in the MM glossary.
Nuntius128 11-15-04, 11:52 PM	I think it would have to deal with how a Lion becomes a Celestial Lion. The template itself wouldn't add any BAB, however, if its a Paladins Mount, that would mean that it was Celestial at birth, so it would've been a Magical Beast from the get go, with Magical Beast BAB from its first HD. I think that it would definitely have the Magical Beast BAB progression, and not Animal BAB. However, if a Lion were to somehow become Celestial by a god's will, its BAB wouldn't change. I'd say you're right, and yes, they could use some better proofreading, or explain their templates better.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 11-16-04, 07:06 AM	I think it would have to deal with how a Lion becomes a Celestial Lion. The template itself wouldn't add any BAB, however, if its a Paladins Mount, that would mean that it was Celestial at birth, so it would've been a Magical Beast from the get go, with Magical Beast BAB from its first HD. I think that it would definitely have the Magical Beast BAB progression, and not Animal BAB. However, if a Lion were to somehow become Celestial by a god's will, its BAB wouldn't change. I'd say you're right, and yes, they could use some better proofreading, or explain their templates better. While this could work from a flavour point of view it doesnt agree with the rules as written. Templates, inherited or aquired, do not alter the features of the base creature at all other than what is specified in the entry. The celestial lion, born celestial or not, will have the BAB of a normal lion.
Nuntius128 11-16-04, 10:10 AM	While this could work from a flavour point of view it doesnt agree with the rules as written. Templates, inherited or aquired, do not alter the features of the base creature at all other than what is specified in the entry. The celestial lion, born celestial or not, will have the BAB of a normal lion. Very true. It would only be a flavor thing. But, it could use some clearing up, for the sake of this post.
Raven Dark 11-16-04, 10:15 AM	...however, if you were to advance that creature's HD after the template was applied it would get the benefits of being a Magical Beast and its BAB would advance at a 1:1 ratio. No it wouldn't. It would continue to advance at an Animal's BAB progression.
Martryn 11-16-04, 11:30 AM	Crap, this is complicated. So, despite the magical beast stuff, that's only there for show, It gets all stats and skills and feats and saves and BAB as an animal? Got you. Boy, is he going to be disappointed.
fistanthius 11-16-04, 11:57 AM	The section on templates in the back of the MM says that a template does not change the base attack bonus, unless the template has an entry for base attack/grapple. In the case of Celestial, it does not so the bab stays the same, even though the type changes to extraplanar magical beast (if on the prime)
Morwen 11-16-04, 03:33 PM	Crap, this is complicated. So, despite the magical beast stuff, that's only there for show, It gets all stats and skills and feats and saves and BAB as an animal? Got you. Boy, is he going to be disappointed. No, it's not just for show. The Magical Beast type awards the creature the traits of Magical Beast, but since it has the subtype Augmented Animal, it gets the features of Animal. See the MM glossary to figure out what that means.