Challenge ratings for NPC's [Archive] - Wizards Community

Challenge ratings for NPC's [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheDarklion
05-11-05, 11:26 AM I haven't found this anywhere in my books but i'm running a campaing where the last dude we have to kill is a 15th lvl human paladin.

Should he be counted as a Challenge rating 15 or what.

Most CR 15's in the monsters manual would anihalate this guy.
ShinQuickMan
05-11-05, 12:42 PM I haven't found this anywhere in my books but i'm running a campaing where the last dude we have to kill is a 15th lvl human paladin.

Should he be counted as a Challenge rating 15 or what.

Most CR 15's in the monsters manual would anihalate this guy.

Yup. For enemies with core races and PC classes, CR = level.
I do agree with you, however. NPCs with PC classes make for poor encounters for their challenge ratings. Their only saving grace is their equipment, which probably would still be worse than the ones the PCs possess. But then again, NPCs don't need to store their equipment like the PCs often have to...
TheDarklion
05-11-05, 08:50 PM Well if a lvl 15 NPC is a CR 15 does anyone have suggestions to maybe make him a little bit harder without changing the character drastically?
Colmarr
05-11-05, 09:08 PM I've found that the CRs for humanoid opponents can be off, but usually it's as a result of using them inappropriately.

Remember that CR is just a measure of the resources an opponent should cause the party to use up. A paladin with high AC, good saves, and reasonable melee ability, should prove a suitable challenge to the party. But be smart with him. Don't allow him to get surrounded. Target weaker (or easier-to-hit) party members first to try and take them out of the combat. He should use buffs appropriately, before combat begins if possible.

However, my advice is to try to steer clear of single humanoid opponents. A single CR15 wizard will likely be swamped by the party and disposed of within a round (simply by virtue of the fact that the party gets 4 actions to every one of his), but 4 CR11 humanoid opponents with a good spread of abilities (such as a rival adventuring party) will always prove incredibly difficult for the PCs to deal with. And it's still a CR 15 challenge.

Another thing that I've noticed helps is to throw in a few mooks. Whether they are level 1 fighters or level 2 warriors, their CR is so low as to not effect the EL of the combat. They will, however, occupy the party for at least a round, and that extra round can make all the difference between having a combat that is memorable and one which is a cake walk.

As an example, I recently pitted my PCs against a daemonic cult and a chain devil. The final encounter with the devil was EL7, of which the devil contributed CR6. The remainder of the cult was level 1 and 2 characters and even NPC classes like warriors. They did very little damage to the party overall, but they did set up and take AoOs, used the aid another action, and allowed the bad guys to gain flanking bonuses on hard-to-hit PCs. Mooks can be very helpful at balancing a combat.
ShinQuickMan
05-12-05, 07:13 AM Well, you're right at what you just posted, Colmarr, but this applies to most other intelligent monsters of the same challenge rating as NPC's with PC classes. It still doesn't change the fact that these NPC's make for feeble challenges at their levels (though I don't beleive you were actually implying that).

However, as I said before, their equipment is what would make NPC's noteworthy. IF you want to make this Paladin a more suiable challenge, give him some powerful one-hit items and the enqounter should be significantly tougher.
The Abominable Darkling
05-12-05, 12:36 PM Well if a lvl 15 NPC is a CR 15 does anyone have suggestions to maybe make him a little bit harder without changing the character drastically?Well, there are a few tricks I use for my games, but the absolute truth of it is that there's not a whole lot you can do. Anyway, here are some things to try:
"Roll" really well for hit points. Maybe your paladin could luck out and "roll" 10 on every hit die.
Give him really good ability scores (though you might consider this a "drastic" change). For my NPCs, I give them 24 + class level points for their abilities.
Give him lots of one-shot items. A few strategic potions can go a long way, but you generally can't rely on potions of buff spells since the PCs will just dispel the effects.
Give him a prestige class. While this is definately a drastic change, it goes a long way to giving an NPC interesting (and useful) abilities.However, at the end of the day, all of these are fairly minor things and won't make him a good challenge. The absolute best thing you can do is to give him minions to help him in battle--especially spellcasters.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheDarklion 05-11-05, 11:26 AM	I haven't found this anywhere in my books but i'm running a campaing where the last dude we have to kill is a 15th lvl human paladin. Should he be counted as a Challenge rating 15 or what. Most CR 15's in the monsters manual would anihalate this guy.
ShinQuickMan 05-11-05, 12:42 PM	I haven't found this anywhere in my books but i'm running a campaing where the last dude we have to kill is a 15th lvl human paladin. Should he be counted as a Challenge rating 15 or what. Most CR 15's in the monsters manual would anihalate this guy. Yup. For enemies with core races and PC classes, CR = level. I do agree with you, however. NPCs with PC classes make for poor encounters for their challenge ratings. Their only saving grace is their equipment, which probably would still be worse than the ones the PCs possess. But then again, NPCs don't need to store their equipment like the PCs often have to...
TheDarklion 05-11-05, 08:50 PM	Well if a lvl 15 NPC is a CR 15 does anyone have suggestions to maybe make him a little bit harder without changing the character drastically?
Colmarr 05-11-05, 09:08 PM	I've found that the CRs for humanoid opponents can be off, but usually it's as a result of using them inappropriately. Remember that CR is just a measure of the resources an opponent should cause the party to use up. A paladin with high AC, good saves, and reasonable melee ability, should prove a suitable challenge to the party. But be smart with him. Don't allow him to get surrounded. Target weaker (or easier-to-hit) party members first to try and take them out of the combat. He should use buffs appropriately, before combat begins if possible. However, my advice is to try to steer clear of single humanoid opponents. A single CR15 wizard will likely be swamped by the party and disposed of within a round (simply by virtue of the fact that the party gets 4 actions to every one of his), but 4 CR11 humanoid opponents with a good spread of abilities (such as a rival adventuring party) will always prove incredibly difficult for the PCs to deal with. And it's still a CR 15 challenge. Another thing that I've noticed helps is to throw in a few mooks. Whether they are level 1 fighters or level 2 warriors, their CR is so low as to not effect the EL of the combat. They will, however, occupy the party for at least a round, and that extra round can make all the difference between having a combat that is memorable and one which is a cake walk. As an example, I recently pitted my PCs against a daemonic cult and a chain devil. The final encounter with the devil was EL7, of which the devil contributed CR6. The remainder of the cult was level 1 and 2 characters and even NPC classes like warriors. They did very little damage to the party overall, but they did set up and take AoOs, used the aid another action, and allowed the bad guys to gain flanking bonuses on hard-to-hit PCs. Mooks can be very helpful at balancing a combat.
ShinQuickMan 05-12-05, 07:13 AM	Well, you're right at what you just posted, Colmarr, but this applies to most other intelligent monsters of the same challenge rating as NPC's with PC classes. It still doesn't change the fact that these NPC's make for feeble challenges at their levels (though I don't beleive you were actually implying that). However, as I said before, their equipment is what would make NPC's noteworthy. IF you want to make this Paladin a more suiable challenge, give him some powerful one-hit items and the enqounter should be significantly tougher.
The Abominable Darkling 05-12-05, 12:36 PM	Well if a lvl 15 NPC is a CR 15 does anyone have suggestions to maybe make him a little bit harder without changing the character drastically?Well, there are a few tricks I use for my games, but the absolute truth of it is that there's not a whole lot you can do. Anyway, here are some things to try: "Roll" really well for hit points. Maybe your paladin could luck out and "roll" 10 on every hit die. Give him really good ability scores (though you might consider this a "drastic" change). For my NPCs, I give them 24 + class level points for their abilities. Give him lots of one-shot items. A few strategic potions can go a long way, but you generally can't rely on potions of buff spells since the PCs will just dispel the effects. Give him a prestige class. While this is definately a drastic change, it goes a long way to giving an NPC interesting (and useful) abilities.However, at the end of the day, all of these are fairly minor things and won't make him a good challenge. The absolute best thing you can do is to give him minions to help him in battle--especially spellcasters.