Change Shape Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Change Shape Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lilt
05-15-04, 03:05 PM A coupple of questions:
For the green, grey, and Death Slaad Change Shape power: what counts as 'any humanoid form'?
Does it just count Humanoid-typed creatures? What about Montrous Humanoid-typed creatures? What about Giants who are primarily humanoid-shaped and within the size limits, or other outsiders with a primarily humanoid shape (such-as another type of slaad or a hound archon)
Do creatures using change shape use their own natural armor or the natural armor of the form they change into?
I may have more questions later.
Told ya so
Would a creature's gear also change when a creature uses Change Shape?
The Livewire
05-15-04, 05:31 PM Well I beleive humanoids and monstrous humanoids are two different types, so you're stuck w/humanoids

as to the natural armour...

Looking at alternate form it says you gain the new form's, so I'd be inclined to say you don't w/change shape. (bummer)

now let me add one serious and one silly question...

If you change shape into a Grimlock do you get blindsense? or are you just blind? Likewise if you change into a drow, do you get 120' darkvision?

silly question: if you turn into a drow, are your weapons poisoned? It is an (EX) ability after all...
ieattrollsforbreakfast
05-15-04, 05:39 PM I think the change shape allows you to change into any humanoid, not anything with the humanoid type. In other words, you can change into anything with two arms, two legs, a body and a head (in the same positions as a human obviously).
Lilt
05-15-04, 06:02 PM My thinking about changing into monstorous humanoids was as follows:

It allows you to take on any humanoid form.
Meaning: Any form that is humanoid.
Which is different from: Any form posessed by a strictly humanoid creature.

I was just wondering wether or not there were accepted readings of it.

I guessed that you kept your natural armor as the Change Shaped creature also keeps its physical attributes (which natural armor could be considered a form of). That and the entry in the appendix gave me a strong 'unless otherwise noted, it retains it's old qualities' feel.

For the grimlock example: I think they would get Darkvision.

For the Drow example: I think the line 'a character hit by a drow's poisoned weapon...' gives the GM grounds to disallow it (unless the character did actually poison the weapon)
Ssussunriyh
05-15-04, 07:14 PM Here's something I wrote for a homebrew monster dubbed a Morph (sort of a pseudo-doppelganger):

Change Shape (Su): A morph can assume the shape of any Medium humanoid. It can remain in the new form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but a morph reverts to its natural form when killed. (This ability functions like the spell Alter Self*, except that the morph is limited to humanoid forms of Medium size.**)

*Note that a morph's Change Shape ability only affects its body, not its clothing or equipment. (For this reason, morphs tend to wear clothes that are loose and comfortable.)

**A morph can assume the form of any Medium sized creature of the Humanoid type, and can also mimic certain other types of creatures with varying degrees of success. It would not possess these creatures' special qualities due to type or subtype, or any of their Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-like abilities. For example:

Monstrous Humanoid: A morph could imitate the form of a medusa, for example, but it would not possess the medusa's poison or petrifying gaze. A morph could not take the form of a centaur or a derro; the former is Large size, the latter is Small.

Fey: A morph could imitate the shape of a dryad, faun, nymph, or satyr, but would not have any special attacks or qualities unique to the creature or to the Fey type.

Other Types: A morph cannot become another creature type by shapechanging, but this does not preclude the morph assuming the general appearance of a vampire or janni, for example, and using Bluff (perhaps in concert with illusions or other magic) to fool observers into believing that it really is one.

(Note that this list is not all-inclusive, these are merely examples. DMs are encouraged to use individual discretion.)

So, it's just mimicking the outward appearance, not actually becoming the new creature. Of course, YMMV...
Lilt
05-15-04, 11:02 PM Hmm. Just a thought. If you strictly set it to anything of the humanoid-type then any of the forms of a lycanthrope are fair game, even the animal forms as the creature type is still technically 'humanoid'.

The Tiger hybrid form would definately be a sweet choice if it was allowed as a humanoid form... Pounce+Rake lets you do a lot of damage.

Small forms, however, would be useful due to the bonuses to AC and Attacks they get. These are usually countered by penalties to strength that small creatures get, but change shape lets you keep your natural strength.

Another interesting point: AFAIK there are no Large humanoid-typed creatures, yet the entry for change shape under the Green Slaad states that it can change into medium-size or large humanoids.
Ssussunriyh
05-15-04, 11:15 PM Regarding lycanthropes, in the 3.5 MM their creature type is listed as "Shapechanger."
The Livewire
05-16-04, 12:07 AM Originally posted by Ssussunriyh
Regarding lycanthropes, in the 3.5 MM their creature type is listed as "Shapechanger."

funny mine says humanoid with the shapechanger subtype.
Ssussunriyh
05-16-04, 01:05 AM You're right, Shapechanger is a subtype, not a type. My mistake.
The Livewire
05-16-04, 10:44 AM NP, we all do it.

I got a nasty look from the DM last night when I suggested the 'if I turn into a drow, my weapons are poisoned' thing. He wasn't amused
;-)
Lilt
05-16-04, 05:51 PM Another thing I just noticed is that you don't get the special qualities of the creature you change into. That means no Immunities, Resistances, Scent, Most vision types (except for blindsight which is a special attack for some odd reason), Ink Cloud (from squid-like creatures) and numerous other abilities that Alternate Form would grant you.
The Livewire
05-18-04, 07:36 PM Originally posted by Lilt
Another thing I just noticed is that you don't get the special qualities of the creature you change into. That means no Immunities, Resistances, Scent, Most vision types (except for blindsight which is a special attack for some odd reason), Ink Cloud (from squid-like creatures) and numerous other abilities that Alternate Form would grant you.

That actually works to my benefit for the grimlock/blindsight trick, but not for my drow trick :-(

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lilt 05-15-04, 03:05 PM	A coupple of questions: For the green, grey, and Death Slaad Change Shape power: what counts as 'any humanoid form'? Does it just count Humanoid-typed creatures? What about Montrous Humanoid-typed creatures? What about Giants who are primarily humanoid-shaped and within the size limits, or other outsiders with a primarily humanoid shape (such-as another type of slaad or a hound archon) Do creatures using change shape use their own natural armor or the natural armor of the form they change into? I may have more questions later. Told ya so Would a creature's gear also change when a creature uses Change Shape?
The Livewire 05-15-04, 05:31 PM	Well I beleive humanoids and monstrous humanoids are two different types, so you're stuck w/humanoids as to the natural armour... Looking at alternate form it says you gain the new form's, so I'd be inclined to say you don't w/change shape. (bummer) now let me add one serious and one silly question... If you change shape into a Grimlock do you get blindsense? or are you just blind? Likewise if you change into a drow, do you get 120' darkvision? silly question: if you turn into a drow, are your weapons poisoned? It is an (EX) ability after all...
ieattrollsforbreakfast 05-15-04, 05:39 PM	I think the change shape allows you to change into any humanoid, not anything with the humanoid type. In other words, you can change into anything with two arms, two legs, a body and a head (in the same positions as a human obviously).
Lilt 05-15-04, 06:02 PM	My thinking about changing into monstorous humanoids was as follows: It allows you to take on any humanoid form. Meaning: Any form that is humanoid. Which is different from: Any form posessed by a strictly humanoid creature. I was just wondering wether or not there were accepted readings of it. I guessed that you kept your natural armor as the Change Shaped creature also keeps its physical attributes (which natural armor could be considered a form of). That and the entry in the appendix gave me a strong 'unless otherwise noted, it retains it's old qualities' feel. For the grimlock example: I think they would get Darkvision. For the Drow example: I think the line 'a character hit by a drow's poisoned weapon...' gives the GM grounds to disallow it (unless the character did actually poison the weapon)
Ssussunriyh 05-15-04, 07:14 PM	Here's something I wrote for a homebrew monster dubbed a Morph (sort of a pseudo-doppelganger): Change Shape (Su): A morph can assume the shape of any Medium humanoid. It can remain in the new form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but a morph reverts to its natural form when killed. (This ability functions like the spell Alter Self, except that the morph is limited to humanoid forms of Medium size.) Note that a morph's Change Shape ability only affects its body, not its clothing or equipment. (For this reason, morphs tend to wear clothes that are loose and comfortable.) **A morph can assume the form of any Medium sized creature of the Humanoid type, and can also mimic certain other types of creatures with varying degrees of success. It would not possess these creatures' special qualities due to type or subtype, or any of their Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-like abilities. For example: Monstrous Humanoid: A morph could imitate the form of a medusa, for example, but it would not possess the medusa's poison or petrifying gaze. A morph could not take the form of a centaur or a derro; the former is Large size, the latter is Small. Fey: A morph could imitate the shape of a dryad, faun, nymph, or satyr, but would not have any special attacks or qualities unique to the creature or to the Fey type. Other Types: A morph cannot become another creature type by shapechanging, but this does not preclude the morph assuming the general appearance of a vampire or janni, for example, and using Bluff (perhaps in concert with illusions or other magic) to fool observers into believing that it really is one. (Note that this list is not all-inclusive, these are merely examples. DMs are encouraged to use individual discretion.) So, it's just mimicking the outward appearance, not actually becoming the new creature. Of course, YMMV...
Lilt 05-15-04, 11:02 PM	Hmm. Just a thought. If you strictly set it to anything of the humanoid-type then any of the forms of a lycanthrope are fair game, even the animal forms as the creature type is still technically 'humanoid'. The Tiger hybrid form would definately be a sweet choice if it was allowed as a humanoid form... Pounce+Rake lets you do a lot of damage. Small forms, however, would be useful due to the bonuses to AC and Attacks they get. These are usually countered by penalties to strength that small creatures get, but change shape lets you keep your natural strength. Another interesting point: AFAIK there are no Large humanoid-typed creatures, yet the entry for change shape under the Green Slaad states that it can change into medium-size or large humanoids.
Ssussunriyh 05-15-04, 11:15 PM	Regarding lycanthropes, in the 3.5 MM their creature type is listed as "Shapechanger."
The Livewire 05-16-04, 12:07 AM	Originally posted by Ssussunriyh Regarding lycanthropes, in the 3.5 MM their creature type is listed as "Shapechanger." funny mine says humanoid with the shapechanger subtype.
Ssussunriyh 05-16-04, 01:05 AM	You're right, Shapechanger is a subtype, not a type. My mistake.
The Livewire 05-16-04, 10:44 AM	NP, we all do it. I got a nasty look from the DM last night when I suggested the 'if I turn into a drow, my weapons are poisoned' thing. He wasn't amused ;-)
Lilt 05-16-04, 05:51 PM	Another thing I just noticed is that you don't get the special qualities of the creature you change into. That means no Immunities, Resistances, Scent, Most vision types (except for blindsight which is a special attack for some odd reason), Ink Cloud (from squid-like creatures) and numerous other abilities that Alternate Form would grant you.
The Livewire 05-18-04, 07:36 PM	Originally posted by Lilt Another thing I just noticed is that you don't get the special qualities of the creature you change into. That means no Immunities, Resistances, Scent, Most vision types (except for blindsight which is a special attack for some odd reason), Ink Cloud (from squid-like creatures) and numerous other abilities that Alternate Form would grant you. That actually works to my benefit for the grimlock/blindsight trick, but not for my drow trick :-(