Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raven Dark 12-14-04, 04:02 PM	I have a Kenku Transmuter (MM III) who wants to gain the ability to turn into a Raven Swarm and back again via a Wish spell or some other magical ritual. The problem is I don't have stats for a Raven Swarm. I'm considering basing them off the Bat Swarm in the MM (since bats and ravens in the MM are very similar) and going from there. Can anyone help me pull this off? Also, if my DM lets my character gain the ability to do this, I intend to make it a Change Shape (Su) ability usable at will if at all possible. EDIT: Crap, Change Shape only allows for changes within one size category. That means my Medium Kenku can't change into a thousand Tiny Ravens... :( Maybe I can model it after Polymorph or something. Boy, its going to get confusing now... :weep:
Sarig the Genie 12-14-04, 04:22 PM	If rules and story collide, err on the side of cool <-- from someones sig.
Raven Dark 12-14-04, 04:29 PM	If rules and story collide, err on the side of cool <-- from someones sig. Gah...! Now I can't even use Polymorph to turn into a Swarm as per the "Rules of the Game: Polymorph 3" article. :mad: EDIT: Ahah! The Alternate Form ability looks like it will work.
Sarig the Genie 12-14-04, 04:30 PM	Which is my point exactly. I know a lot (if not, most) people here disagree with me, but I say the rules are more like guidelines. There's nothing stopping you from house-ruling that this could work.
Edymnion 12-14-04, 04:38 PM	The Warlock gains the ability to become a limited kind of swarm as an invocation, you might want to check him out. Personally though, I would make the swarm thing be flavor text for other things. Teleport? You explode into ravens in one location, and a swarm of ravens merges to form you at the destination. Blurr? Maybe you turned into a tightly packed mass of ravens flying around. As for turning into an actual swarm to get it's abilities, dunno if I'd allow that or not...
Shemeska the Marauder 12-14-04, 04:45 PM	1) That's just a cool idea, kudos. 2) When rules and flavor text/story/coolness collide, the rules will lose every single time. If you don't agree with this you aren't playing the same game as me and I pity you.
Kyy'Dakh 12-14-04, 05:05 PM	I don't have a lot of experience with swarms, so I don't know how to settle any balance issues that come up, but if I were your DM, I'd actively work towards finding/creating a mutually agreeable method. It's just such a gosh darn nifty idea. ;)
Raven Dark 12-14-04, 05:22 PM	I think I will try and obtain the Alternate Form (Su) ability to turn into a Raven Swarm. As for the swarm itself, here is what I came up with. Tell me if you like it and if it is balanced compared to its CR. Raven Swarm Tiny Animal (Swarm) HD: 3d8 (13 hp) Initiative: +2 Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 40 ft. (average) AC: 14 (+2 size, +2 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 12 Base Attack/Grapple: +2/- Attack: Swarm (1d6) Full Attack: Swarm (1d6) Space/Reach: 10 ft./0 ft. Special Attacks: Distraction, smite fallen Special Qualities: Evasion, half damage from slashing and piercing, low-light vision, swarm traits Saves: Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +3 Abilities: Str 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6 Skills: Listen +7 & Spot +7 Feats: Ability Focus (distraction), Alertness, Weapon FinesseB Climate/Terrain: Temperate forests Organization: Solitary, flight (2-4 swarms), or nest (11-20 swarms) Challenge Rating: 2 Treasure: None Alignment: Always Neutral Advancement: None Level Adjustment: - A whirring mass of quick, darting shadows sweeps closer. Hundreds of caws fill the air. A raven swarm is a mass of small, fierce carnivorous ravens gone mad with a thirst for blood. Such swarms are always unnatural and are generally caused by an evil spellcaster or some other external influence. Combat A raven swarm seeks to surround and attack any living creature it encounters. The swarm deals 1d6 points of damage to any creature whose space it occupies at the end of its move. Distraction (Ex): Any living creature that begins its turn with a swarm in its square must succeed on a DC 13 Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based. Smite Fallen (Ex): Raven swarms inflict double damage against pinned, prone, or helpless combatants. Evasion (Ex): With a successful Reflex save against against an attack that allows a Reflex save for half damage, a raven swarm takes no damage.
Raven Dark 12-14-04, 05:34 PM	Smite Fallen (Ex): Raven swarms inflict double damage against pinned, prone, or helpless combatants. Evasion (Ex): With a successful Reflex save against against an attack that allows a Reflex save for half damage, a raven swarm takes no damage. Since I designed this creature after a Bat Swarm, I wanted it to be about as powerful. So I added the Smite Fallen ability to replace the Bat Swarm's Wounding ability, and I added Evasion to replace the Bat Swarm's immunity to slashing and piercing ability (since a Raven Swarm's component creatures are bigger and can be hurt by normal weapons). Thus, both the Bat Swarm and the Raven Swarm have 1 special offensive ability and 1 special defensive ability. The way I see it, Smite Fallen is much weaker than Wounding in that it is very limited in use (its mostly there for style), whereas Evasion is very powerful (particularly for a swarm) and is arguably more powerful than immunity to slashing and piercing in this instance. Thus, I believe there is balance. What do you guys think?
Mithral Icesilver 12-15-04, 04:53 PM	Weaker offensive, stronger defensive .... looks balanced to me.
PhaedrusXY 12-16-04, 06:57 AM	There is a Swarm Shifter template in Libris Mortis that allows an Undead to gain the ability to turn into an Undead Swarm. It increases the Challenge Rating by +1, and so would probably warrant a level adjustment of +1 or more as well. It is quite a powerful ability, actually. Most swarms are totally immune to weapon damage, and don't have to make attack rolls to damage creatures. If you paid for the ability with a Wish, I probably wouldn't assign you a level adjustment as a DM, since you had to blow 5,000 XP on it already, and I use the level adjustment buyoff rules from Unearthed Arcana, anyway. I like the Raven Swarm. But why not make it a swarm of crows, then you can call it a Murder of Crows. ;) Would fit well with the Smite Fallen ability, too, hehe.
Raven Dark 12-16-04, 06:59 PM	I like the Raven Swarm. But why not make it a swarm of crows, then you can call it a Murder of Crows. ;) Would fit well with the Smite Fallen ability, too, hehe. Good idea. Murder of Crows Tiny Animal (Swarm) HD: 3d8 (13 hp) Initiative: +2 Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 40 ft. (average) AC: 14 (+2 size, +2 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 12 Base Attack/Grapple: +2/- Attack: Swarm (1d6) Full Attack: Swarm (1d6) Space/Reach: 10 ft./0 ft. Special Attacks: Distraction, smite fallen Special Qualities: Evasion, half damage from slashing and piercing, low-light vision, swarm traits Saves: Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +3 Abilities: Str 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6 Skills: Listen +7 & Spot +7 Feats: Ability Focus (distraction), Alertness, Weapon FinesseB Climate/Terrain: Temperate forests Organization: Solitary, flight (2-4 swarms), or nest (11-20 swarms) Challenge Rating: 2 Treasure: None Alignment: Always Neutral Advancement: None Level Adjustment: - A whirring mass of quick, darting shadows sweeps closer. Hundreds of caws fill the air. A murder of crows is a mass of small, fierce carnivorous crows gone mad with a thirst for blood. Such swarms are always unnatural and are generally caused by an evil spellcaster or some other external influence. Combat A murder of crows seeks to surround and attack any living creature it encounters. The swarm deals 1d6 points of damage to any creature whose space it occupies at the end of its move. Distraction (Ex): Any living creature that begins its turn with a swarm in its square must succeed on a DC 13 Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based. Smite Fallen (Ex): Murder of crows inflict double damage against pinned, prone, or helpless combatants. Evasion (Ex): With a successful Reflex save against against an attack that allows a Reflex save for half damage, a murder of crows takes no damage. In my games, I will call them Raven Swarms since I am very fond of Ravens. You are more than welcome to use it in your game and call it Murder of Crows if you wish.
Slagger the Chuul 12-17-04, 12:54 AM	There was a deathraven swarm as one of the divine wrath swarms in the Book of Exalted Deeds, but at CR 20 with the ability to pluck out your eyes and/or kill you with each attack, they're probably not in the same league as the ability you're designing. Oh, they also made it impossible to return from death without a miracle or wish.
Raven Dark 12-22-04, 08:48 AM	Would anyone else like to comment on my Raven Swarm?