Changing/taking away subtypes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Changing/taking away subtypes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Starman IX
07-20-07, 12:34 PM Say I wanted to play a hound archon native to the material plane and without the lawful and good subtypes. Would this up his LA or down it?
Alac Luin
07-20-07, 11:49 PM If for no other reason then to open the dialog...

I would say no change in LA for dropping the lawful or good subtypes.
Each has benefits and drawbacks that even things out.
This is only an initial reaction, so input from others may have a better sense.

As for the Outsider part, this would depend on how your DM would treat it.
Are you adding the (native) subtype or are you just dropping the (extraplaner) subtype?
I would personally handle these differently.
Starman IX
07-21-07, 09:34 AM I was thinking about dropping the extraplanar and then adding native. Also, would taking the lawful/good subtypes away take away the spell-like abilities? They seem tied to the good part of the hound archon.
EvilVegan
07-21-07, 09:43 AM That would be a DMs call. The abilities are inherent to the archon abilities, but this may or may not be tied to their "paragon of good" nature.

If the campaign has hound archons that have lost their status or connection due to being native to the material plane they may or may not lose their abilities.

In other words, it deals with a fundamental element of the campaign cosmology. Do fallen/lost angels keep their abilities? Are they still "Always Good"?
EvilVegan
07-21-07, 09:50 AM I just noticed that you want to play the archon character. Tell us what abilities you want and then I can better judge what the LA would be, but getting an ECL 11 creature down in LA can be difficult, and changing subtypes won't necessarily change abilities.
Starman IX
07-21-07, 09:53 AM Not really, I was just using hound archon as an example. It could work for any alignment bound extraplanar creature with LA. Archons, eladrins, demons, devil, angels, whatever...
runestar
07-21-07, 09:54 AM Taking away the subtypes just means that you only lose the ability to overcome dr/evil and lawful. How significant will that be in your games?
EvilVegan
07-21-07, 10:03 AM Yeah, subtypes aren't that important and I'd be surprised if they were even considered in any LA consideration. They're icing on the cake, but not significant enough to grant/remove LA on their own.
Rerecros
07-21-07, 10:20 AM Taking away a subtype actually make a monster stronger.
A fiend that looses the evil subtype is now invulnerable to holy water, and it doesn't have a glowing neon sign above it's head when detect evil is cast on it.
Alac Luin
07-21-07, 01:53 PM Taking away a subtype actually make a monster stronger.
A fiend that looses the evil subtype is now invulnerable to holy water, and it doesn't have a glowing neon sign above it's head when detect evil is cast on it.
This is somewhat true for a one shot encounter, but not the case for a PC.
A fiend that looses their evil subtype cant overcome an planetar’s Damage reduction 10/evil.

The ability to overcome DR is a nice thing to have over the course of a campaign.
Of course, it depends on the campaign. :)

Overall, I'd say it should have no effect on the LA.

Now, I'd say the change on no longer being vulnerable to dismissals and banishments makes it more powerful, enough for a LA boost, no. (I've had a chance to think about it).
Shemeska the Marauder
07-22-07, 11:33 AM Taking away a subtype actually make a monster stronger.
A fiend that looses the evil subtype is now invulnerable to holy water, and it doesn't have a glowing neon sign above it's head when detect evil is cast on it.

But would it still actually be a fiend though? This is a case where a strict rules interpretation of losing the subtype doesn't mesh thematically at all with what that loss would entail.

A fiend losing its evil subtype, or an archon losing its law or good subtypes would be the equivalent of a fire elemental losing its fire subtype. It radically changes what the creature in question embodies, and as such creatures are the physical embodiment of their subtypes, they're going to lose many/most/all of the abilities that their kind possess.

I'd use Zalatian XXIII (fallen trumpet archon) in the module Lord of the Iron Fortress as an example (retained law subtype, lost good subtype, archon wasn't a subtype at that point, and his archon abilities were stripped or modified to reflect his new ethos).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Starman IX 07-20-07, 12:34 PM	Say I wanted to play a hound archon native to the material plane and without the lawful and good subtypes. Would this up his LA or down it?
Alac Luin 07-20-07, 11:49 PM	If for no other reason then to open the dialog... I would say no change in LA for dropping the lawful or good subtypes. Each has benefits and drawbacks that even things out. This is only an initial reaction, so input from others may have a better sense. As for the Outsider part, this would depend on how your DM would treat it. Are you adding the (native) subtype or are you just dropping the (extraplaner) subtype? I would personally handle these differently.
Starman IX 07-21-07, 09:34 AM	I was thinking about dropping the extraplanar and then adding native. Also, would taking the lawful/good subtypes away take away the spell-like abilities? They seem tied to the good part of the hound archon.
EvilVegan 07-21-07, 09:43 AM	That would be a DMs call. The abilities are inherent to the archon abilities, but this may or may not be tied to their "paragon of good" nature. If the campaign has hound archons that have lost their status or connection due to being native to the material plane they may or may not lose their abilities. In other words, it deals with a fundamental element of the campaign cosmology. Do fallen/lost angels keep their abilities? Are they still "Always Good"?
EvilVegan 07-21-07, 09:50 AM	I just noticed that you want to play the archon character. Tell us what abilities you want and then I can better judge what the LA would be, but getting an ECL 11 creature down in LA can be difficult, and changing subtypes won't necessarily change abilities.
Starman IX 07-21-07, 09:53 AM	Not really, I was just using hound archon as an example. It could work for any alignment bound extraplanar creature with LA. Archons, eladrins, demons, devil, angels, whatever...
runestar 07-21-07, 09:54 AM	Taking away the subtypes just means that you only lose the ability to overcome dr/evil and lawful. How significant will that be in your games?
EvilVegan 07-21-07, 10:03 AM	Yeah, subtypes aren't that important and I'd be surprised if they were even considered in any LA consideration. They're icing on the cake, but not significant enough to grant/remove LA on their own.
Rerecros 07-21-07, 10:20 AM	Taking away a subtype actually make a monster stronger. A fiend that looses the evil subtype is now invulnerable to holy water, and it doesn't have a glowing neon sign above it's head when detect evil is cast on it.
Alac Luin 07-21-07, 01:53 PM	Taking away a subtype actually make a monster stronger. A fiend that looses the evil subtype is now invulnerable to holy water, and it doesn't have a glowing neon sign above it's head when detect evil is cast on it. This is somewhat true for a one shot encounter, but not the case for a PC. A fiend that looses their evil subtype cant overcome an planetar’s Damage reduction 10/evil. The ability to overcome DR is a nice thing to have over the course of a campaign. Of course, it depends on the campaign. :) Overall, I'd say it should have no effect on the LA. Now, I'd say the change on no longer being vulnerable to dismissals and banishments makes it more powerful, enough for a LA boost, no. (I've had a chance to think about it).
Shemeska the Marauder 07-22-07, 11:33 AM	Taking away a subtype actually make a monster stronger. A fiend that looses the evil subtype is now invulnerable to holy water, and it doesn't have a glowing neon sign above it's head when detect evil is cast on it. But would it still actually be a fiend though? This is a case where a strict rules interpretation of losing the subtype doesn't mesh thematically at all with what that loss would entail. A fiend losing its evil subtype, or an archon losing its law or good subtypes would be the equivalent of a fire elemental losing its fire subtype. It radically changes what the creature in question embodies, and as such creatures are the physical embodiment of their subtypes, they're going to lose many/most/all of the abilities that their kind possess. I'd use Zalatian XXIII (fallen trumpet archon) in the module Lord of the Iron Fortress as an example (retained law subtype, lost good subtype, archon wasn't a subtype at that point, and his archon abilities were stripped or modified to reflect his new ethos).