Post/Author/DateTime	Post
valvorik 11-13-04, 05:47 PM	The Cinder Swarm (MM III) has a Hide +16 check, +9 Spot. No racial modifiers noted. Breaking down source that is Size Fine giving +16 hide, Dex 22 giving +6 Hide Wis 11 giving no bonus Spot. 16 HD means skills ranks as Elemental with Int 4 are therefor 19 (2 per HD, x4 for 1st HD, subject to Int Adjustment, minimum 1 per level, 4 for 1st level). So that should mean it could put no ranks in Hide and have +22, and all ranks in Spot for +19. What gives? To check against another Swarm, Bat Swarm has 3HD, Int 2, Alertness, Wis 14, +4 racial bonus to Listen and Spot, and Listen/Spot +11 @. That comes out as 6 skill points, for +3 @, +2@ from feat, +4 @ from racial bonus, +2 @ ability = +11. So swarm should follow skill point rules naturally. To make it work, you have to assume that 10 ranks went into Hide, and that being bright gives it a -16 penalty to hide. I spotted this while also pondering, hmmm, a creature that is a mass of flickering and sparkling, crackling flames and cinders, shouldn't really have a good "Hide" check and should also be easier to hear than others, and trying to deconstruct to figure out if there was a penalty hidden for being "bright", and what other skill to replace Hide with. I don't favour that explanation without any notations. However, what I do think it makes sense is to give a burning creature (also fire elemental) a penalty on hide and on move silent. For hide, this stacks with size penalty or bonus. I think -16 is about right, in that a truly fine creature that is on fire can hide about as well as a normal sized creature. Also I think size bonus to swarms is a bit wonky since they are classed by the size of their members but actually take up larger spaces, a Cinder Swarm has 10' spacing, meaning it takes up an area the size of Large creature, which should therefor have -4 hide. It makes more sense to me thefore for its Hide to be -4 size, -16 on fire, +6 Dex = Hide -14, Spot +19.
cwslyclgh 11-13-04, 06:21 PM	nevermind... you already realized that...