CL for monsters above CR 20. [Archive] - Wizards Community

CL for monsters above CR 20. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sebastienurbanek
06-06-07, 08:58 AM Hi folks
I don't like the limitation to CL for monsters above CR 20 ; for example the celestial hebdomad with the Cl = CL of mere solars. How did you handle this? What is , for you the Cl or spell level class abilities for Barachiel or demon lords...Tanx
elondir
06-06-07, 09:25 AM I would use the Immortals Handbook: Epic Bestiary to recalculate the CR of the monster in question. It's a good CR system, and was mathematically derived, playtested, and tweaked. Due to its mathematical roots, ECL always equals its silver rule CR, even for epic monsters.

The math was derived from the following axioms:

An NPC has CR equal to his or her level.
Doubling the relative power raises the encounter level by 2.
An encounter with EL = APL (average party level) uses 25% of party resources and has an 87.5% chance of party victory.

Keep in mind though that due to axiom #2, CR and EL have a different relationship than you're used to. You calculate the EL of each of the PCs, take the average, apply a modifier for number of PCs, and compare it to the EL of the encounter, which can be wildly different due to the logarithmic (base 2) growth curve of EL.

EDIT: Oops, I thought you were talking about Effective Character Level not Caster Level. I would just include outsider levels to caster level. If they're not powerful enough then use the dicefreaks versions which are probably around 60th level or so.
runestar
06-06-07, 10:14 AM You could just make caster lv = cr.
I think that they were designed with lv20 parties in mind. Thus, higher caster lvs might make them hard to run due to certain abilities like holy word or blasphemy.:)
sebastienurbanek
06-06-07, 11:10 AM Tanx for the suggestion.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sebastienurbanek 06-06-07, 08:58 AM	Hi folks I don't like the limitation to CL for monsters above CR 20 ; for example the celestial hebdomad with the Cl = CL of mere solars. How did you handle this? What is , for you the Cl or spell level class abilities for Barachiel or demon lords...Tanx
elondir 06-06-07, 09:25 AM	I would use the Immortals Handbook: Epic Bestiary to recalculate the CR of the monster in question. It's a good CR system, and was mathematically derived, playtested, and tweaked. Due to its mathematical roots, ECL always equals its silver rule CR, even for epic monsters. The math was derived from the following axioms: An NPC has CR equal to his or her level. Doubling the relative power raises the encounter level by 2. An encounter with EL = APL (average party level) uses 25% of party resources and has an 87.5% chance of party victory. Keep in mind though that due to axiom #2, CR and EL have a different relationship than you're used to. You calculate the EL of each of the PCs, take the average, apply a modifier for number of PCs, and compare it to the EL of the encounter, which can be wildly different due to the logarithmic (base 2) growth curve of EL. EDIT: Oops, I thought you were talking about Effective Character Level not Caster Level. I would just include outsider levels to caster level. If they're not powerful enough then use the dicefreaks versions which are probably around 60th level or so.
runestar 06-06-07, 10:14 AM	You could just make caster lv = cr. I think that they were designed with lv20 parties in mind. Thus, higher caster lvs might make them hard to run due to certain abilities like holy word or blasphemy.:)
sebastienurbanek 06-06-07, 11:10 AM	Tanx for the suggestion.