Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 09-06-04, 11:41 PM	Alright, I've been seeing a lot of off-hand comments about "That stupid half-illithid template" and general references to it being WotC taking the whole "Half-Template" thing too far, etc. So I felt the need to clear some things up. First off, this is NOT a half-template in the traditional sense of the word. There are no half-illithids born of sexual relationships with illithids. In fact, there are no half-illithids BORN. Ever. The illithid reproductive process goes thus: An illithid goes to the elder brain pool, and lays eggs, through an asexual process. These eggs then proceed to hatch into tadpoles, which swim about eating each other and being preyed upon by the elder brain. After they reach a certain level of maturity, the surviving tadpoles are removed, and implanted in the brains of human or gith thralls. The Tadpole devours the brain of the subject, and replaces it with its own mass, then slowly alters the body into the form that is traditionally recognized as an illithid. This process of implantation and alteration is known as Ceremorphosis. Now, it's possible to implant illithid tadpoles in non-human and non-gith creatures, as long as they have a brain. This results in an incomplete metamorphosis, however. Often, the resultant creature has nonstandard intelligence for an illithid (most times lower, sometimes higher, dependent on the subject) and their innate psionic abilities are greatly diminished. However, they also retain many of the traits of the host creature, and retain much of its appearance. Most of these Half-Illithids are created due to a lack of proper hosts for ceremorphosis in the area, or as an experiment to find a "superior" Illithid. The results are often used as servants, though it is potentially possible for some to dominate the community they reside in (for example, a Half-Illithid Mature Adult Blue Dragon is hardly servant material). Thus, the name "Half-Illithid" is something of a misnomer, as it's not a hereditary half-template like the Half-Dragon, but rather a bizarre result of a breeding process that was first described in the 2E Illithiad. Therefore, accusations that WotC is just "making ridiculous things up to fill monster books" are unfounded. So, you know. Be quiet about it.
sciborg2 09-07-04, 12:06 AM	i knew that, i still thought it was stupid. imho, it diversifies something that maintain's its threat through some unity of form--worms and squids (celaphods?). Illithid lizardmen seem/look stupid to me. If this works, why not have illithid dragons conquer the multiverse? Again, my opinion, but I think it'd be like creating a beholder template.
Lord Schpungus 09-07-04, 02:15 AM	Don't forget that some people want to restrict classes back to fighter, thief, cleric, and wizard. Limiting other people is what they live for.
allenchan 09-07-04, 03:08 AM	Uhm... Where are you getting your sources from? Im a little bit confused. The Underdark book (which has the half-illithid template) uses it's example as a beholder i think and IIRC doesn't mention anything like that. I actually made a half-illithid spectral panther (from monsters of faerun) and it was pretty sick.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-07-04, 04:00 AM	Uhm... Where are you getting your sources from? Im a little bit confused. The Underdark book (which has the half-illithid template) uses it's example as a beholder i think and IIRC doesn't mention anything like that. I actually made a half-illithid spectral panther (from monsters of faerun) and it was pretty sick. I forget where it has been printed in 3e, though the most detail on it all comes from the 2e 'Illithiad'. A half illithid spectral panther? Whatever floats your boat, but the base critter isn't exactly, well, corporeal, and capable of having an illithid tadpole perform ceremorphosis. *shrug*
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 09-07-04, 04:12 AM	i knew that, i still thought it was stupid. imho, it diversifies something that maintain's its threat through some unity of form--worms and squids (celaphods?). Illithid lizardmen seem/look stupid to me. Actually, imho, the illithids maintain their threat through lovecraftian freakishness and a horde of underlings. This just adds another layer of underlings to the mix, not to mention a whole new way to create "Unspeakable abominations to nature". Oh, and it's cephalopods. Cephalo, meaning "Head" (as in electro-encephalogram) and "pod" meaning "foot". If this works, why not have illithid dragons conquer the multiverse? Same reason NORMAL dragons don't conquer the multiverse: They breed too slow, they attract too much attention, and there aren't enough of them. That, and there's a certain amount of restriction amongst the normal illithids, I imagine. If they create something better than themselves, then they'll lose power. Not to mention the fact that they tend to regard themselves as the pinnacle of perfection as a whole, barring lone experimenters. The society at large only really condones creating half-illithids as lessers, and servants. Kindof...overseers. Go-betweens between master and slave. Uhm... Where are you getting your sources from? Im a little bit confused. The Underdark book (which has the half-illithid template) uses it's example as a beholder i think and IIRC doesn't mention anything like that. I actually made a half-illithid spectral panther (from monsters of faerun) and it was pretty sick. I was going from the Illithiad (2e) and the MMII (3e). The Underdark version is a lot more permissive, and a lot less descriptive, but even THAT doesn't allow a spectral panther, IIRC.
Gez 09-07-04, 06:24 AM	Two more misconceptions. First: The Half-Illithid template (which should have been called Ceremorphised Creature, or Quasi-Illithid Creature, or Mindflaying Creature) is not in the MM2. It is in the Fiend Folio, along with a sidebar explaining "How Illithids Make More". Second: The Spectral Panther is totally corporeal. It has a Strength score and a material body and everything. However, it is capable of becoming incorporeal. It uses this capacity for hiding and hunting more efficiently. But its natural form is corporeal.
Sarig the Genie 09-07-04, 07:54 AM	The one in the Underdark is closer to the whole "half-creature" concept, as it's a result of Illithids messing with other creatures breeding stuff (You know what I mean, my english is a bit poor nowadays). I'd imagine they use a lot of magic when a creature is born or concieved or whatever. Since, Illithids being asexual and all, it'd be a bit hard for one to participate in the mating. One more thing though, it's really fun throwing a brain eating beholder at a party ;)
Count Arioch the 28th 09-07-04, 09:03 AM	Heh. the thread starter sounds like me when the half-golem template came out. I typed my fingers to nubs trying to clear up the fact that they were living creatures with golem prosthetic limbs, not a product of mating.
JabberWocky 09-07-04, 10:44 AM	Someone thought half-golems were the product of mating...? What? How? No, don't answer that. Personally, I take any "half" templates with a grain of salt these days. But then again, I can generally justify using anything in my games. Half-illithids in my games are the product of mind flayer experimentation, and not intentional breeding, and they are rare. After all, why would an illithid give a troll all the blessings of being a powerful psionic creature and still be, y'know, a FRIGGIN' TROLL? It doesn't quite make sense.
Shebnar 09-07-04, 02:13 PM	i knew that, i still thought it was stupid. imho, it diversifies something that maintain's its threat through some unity of form--worms and squids (celaphods?) They still mantain their unity of form. They still have tentacles, Mind Blast :D ... Half-Illithid are just deranged mutants, a variation of the main race: they must be considered freaks and outcast by true Illithid, or at least the useful products of some crazy experiment. Anyway I find the mechanics of the ceremorphosis very fascinating for game purposes: figure out a deep Mind Flayer enclave which has been ostracized by their community and has to survive spawning freaks from half-orcs, duergar, lizardmen... They have to find the balance between survival and the need for food (brains) and slaves. Obviously weakened by their unnatural breeding, they wait to lay their hands upon some humans, organizing manhunts throughout the Underdark. In the group I'm currently DMing there's an arrogant, xenophobic human mage who thinks humans will take over the world and dominate the 'lesser' races... I already imagine the Illithid Lord of the forementioned enclave who comes near the captured group and whispers to him: " 'The Future is in the Human Race': you don't know how your statement is true..." :devil: If this works, why not have illithid dragons conquer the multiverse? Maybe because dragons are not humanoids? :) The Underdark version of the template is IMHO too approssimative. If Mind Flayers spawn their kind from humans, it seems logical that a victim of the ceremorphosis should be at least humanoid, if not human. You can say non-humanoid half-illithids are the sporadic product of a mad Illithid scientist, but what's the point in creating another independent race (such as the Mindwitness) you can't easily enslave? They should be the exception, not the rule (besides, we can suppose that a totally unfitting creature can die in the ceremorphosis process). I do prefer the Fiend Folio version and I will always adopt it in my campaign.
sciborg2 09-07-04, 11:21 PM	hmmm...y'all may have convinced me. I just don't like templates to be silly, and *imho* I think the illithid 1/2 template fits that category. To each their own...
Xthoroth 09-09-04, 03:45 PM	Wow. I really have to sincerely thank you for that Lesson on Illithids. I thought that the Half-Illithid template was stupid when I heard about this particular mini.. but now that I actually understand it, I've totally changed my opinion. That's really damn cool. I think it makes perfect sense for an Illithid overlord to have half-illithids to oversee their creatures, for quite a few reasons. Wow. Thanks again!
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 09-09-04, 08:21 PM	Hee hee. If I can set even one person straight, it was worth typing.
Xeven the Mighty 09-09-04, 10:09 PM	I think your 'set straight' count is now two... I didn't even know that mindflayers were asexual..... Thanks. :D
Shemeska the Marauder 09-09-04, 10:46 PM	I think your 'set straight' count is now two... I didn't even know that mindflayers were asexual..... Except that they aren't. Illithids are hermaphroditic. :P
Xeven the Mighty 09-09-04, 11:18 PM	Oops... I said 'mindflayers', didn't I? Sorry... I ment 'Illithids'. And what exactly do you mean? I'm pretty stupid, so could you explain the word 'hermaphroditic' in layman's terms?
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 09-09-04, 11:19 PM	Except that they aren't. Illithids are hermaphroditic. Which, when you just inseminate yourself, is the "going-around-your-a**-to-get-to-your-elbow" version of asexuality. Unless they actually breed with each other....my pdf of the illithiad is swiss cheesed to hell, and it's possible I missed the part where that's mentioned.
Xeven the Mighty 09-09-04, 11:37 PM	Kinky... Kinda... Not really... :twitch: I don't think that I wanted to know that... MUST. CLEAN. BRAIN... WIPE. DIRTY. THOUGHTS. FROM. MIND... MUST. FORGET. SICKENING. KNOWLEDGE. :banghead:
edsonaoki 09-09-04, 11:47 PM	I think they could make "half-" templates for less popular monsters. Wouldn´t be cool a half-remorhaz minotaur? Or a half-grick dragonne?
Shemeska the Marauder 09-10-04, 12:18 AM	Kinky... Kinda... Not really... :twitch: I don't think that I wanted to know that... MUST. CLEAN. BRAIN... WIPE. DIRTY. THOUGHTS. FROM. MIND... MUST. FORGET. SICKENING. KNOWLEDGE. :banghead: LOL. It's not like there's anything else that vile lurking to frighten you. Oh, except lesser Yugoloths, all of 'em. And perhaps greater 'loths as well, though they tend to assume one or the other. :angel:
Voldenuit 09-10-04, 03:18 AM	The Illlithiad reports the following races as suitable for ceremorphosis into true illithids: Humans, Elves, Drow, Githyanki/zerai, Gnolls, Goblins, Grimlocks &Orcs The following races are unsuitable for ceremorphosis: Halflings, Dwarves, Derro, Duergar, Gnomes, Centauroids, Gians & Kuo-Toa It also states that usually only humanoid races within a certain size range are acceptable, and that non-mammalian races are always unsuitable. However, the Illithiad was written by a Prime sage and may not be entirely accurate. It may be that Wakeman simply never got to see or hear of any non-mammallian illithid-kin. I also remember reading about a Neothelid Hydra variant, but can't seem to remember which book it was in. Anyone know which one it's in? Cheers, V.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-10-04, 03:44 AM	Thanks for the list of info from the Illithiad, it's appreciated since I don't have a copy of it myself. I also remember reading about a Neothelid Hydra variant, but can't seem to remember which book it was in. Anyone know which one it's in? Eeeep! :mymy: A hydra variant neolithid? *shiver*
Voldenuit 09-10-04, 04:13 AM	Thanks for the list of info from the Illithiad, it's appreciated since I don't have a copy of it mysellf. Glad to be of service *bows grandly* btw, the Illithiad also mentions that illithids someimes attempt tadpole implantation in other species to create flayer-kin (our first hint of half-illithids). It goes on to describe one such variant, the Urophion, which is a half-illithid half-roper. :eek: A-HA! finally found my Thelihydra picture. http://member.telpacific.com.au/ephemera/thelihydra.jpg The Thelihydra is from Bruce Cordell's Hyperconscious, which is a pretty good expansion for 3.5 Psionics. Bruce also wrote the Illithiad and XPH, so one of these days, I'm going to have to forgive him for the Planar Handbook and give him credit for his other works. :D Cheers, V.
okaynowa 09-10-04, 05:05 AM	There was a great, great issue of Dragon back in the day (2nd edition times, children, between 1992 and 1993 I think)-- an October issue-- that was largely devoted to mind flayers. The issue included a write up of an expedition to an illithid-dominated alternate prime, and the stats for several "home world" creatures-- not half-illithids, but more like proto-illithids. I can't recall the names, but there was a pseudo simian type, a large predator, and a few other neat critters. All of them had four or more tentacles and a version of the "brain sucking" ability, and presumably all of them used the same tadpole/ceremorphosis method of reproduction (details were sketchy under the euphamistic 2nd ed). All in all, quite fun and creepy. Where, oh where did that back issue go? Unrelated comment:Mmmmm... beholder template [/Homer]
Temroc 09-10-04, 10:13 AM	I think your 'set straight' count is now two... I didn't even know that mindflayers were asexual..... Of course, it doesn't help that in one book they refer to female mind flayers *coughBoEDcough* :rant:
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 09-10-04, 02:23 PM	The Thelihydra is from Bruce Cordell's Hyperconscious, which is a pretty good expansion for 3.5 Psionics. Bruce also wrote the Illithiad and XPH, so one of these days, I'm going to have to forgive him for the Planar Handbook and give him credit for his other works. :D I wouldn't be so quick. He also wrote Die, Vecna, Die.
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 09-10-04, 03:29 PM	Of course, it doesn't help that in one book they refer to female mind flayers *coughBoEDcough* yeah, that irritated me to no end. They could've just said that she chose to refer to herself as female, and displayed more feminine personality traits. That would've made sense....
Gez 09-10-04, 03:38 PM	Of course, it doesn't help that in one book they refer to female mind flayers *coughBoEDcough* :rant: Technically, since mindflayers are hermaphroditic, they're all female (and all male, too). So, I guess it'll be like other asexual or hermaphroditic creatures (beholders, warforged, ladies of pain ;)...) and say the reference to a male or female specimen is just a question of poorly placed anthropocentrism, and maybe an indication of personality.
Temroc 09-10-04, 05:22 PM	Yeah, well why couldn't they have just said "it does this" or "Sreck does this" instead of "he/she does this". I mean, they manage to with constructs and oozes, which are all asexual/hermaphroditic (at least, I assume oozes are... they have a tendancy to just bud. And I guess a flesh golem could have a gender, depending on whose parts were used to make it, but to keep things simple...). So yeah, no excuse.
Voldenuit 09-10-04, 08:34 PM	I wouldn't be so quick. He also wrote Die, Vecna, Die. ARGH!!!! :headexplo :headexplo :headexplo Adds Cordell to his "Nixon" list. I also now remember how he used I-Ching symbols for his Illithid Creeds in Illithiad - something I felt was very culturally disrespectful... Looks like someone deserves a http://member.telpacific.com.au/ephemera/flay.gif
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 09-11-04, 03:41 AM	Yeah, well why couldn't they have just said "it does this" or "Sreck does this" instead of "he/she does this". I mean, they manage to with constructs and oozes, It really just comes down to the fact that they didn't research, and just slapped the creature in. I also now remember how he used I-Ching symbols for his Illithid Creeds in Illithiad - something I felt was very culturally disrespectful... Looking back, you're right, that's not so cool.
Voldenuit 09-11-04, 04:08 AM	Looking back, you're right, that's not so cool. It wasn't even Qualith ('thid writing), since qualith is made up of 4 lines of dashes - 'thids read it by running all 4 tentacles over it at once. Instead, the Creed logos had 6 rows, consisting of straight or broken lines, just like I-ching symbols :mymy: blegh. Cheers, V.
Khaibit_Ema_Neteru 09-11-04, 03:37 PM	I hadn't noticed that, but you're absolutely right
kasthevampire 09-26-04, 05:14 PM	this template is only for humannoids other than humans not dragons.
allenchan 09-26-04, 05:59 PM	this template is only for humannoids other than humans not dragons. The half-illithid was reprinted in the Underdark book, which is newer so holds superiority, and is applicable "to any coropreal creature that is not a construct" and are created by magical tampering of the reproduction process, not any direct mating, so it says.
Gez 09-26-04, 06:28 PM	"any corporeal creature that is not a construct" Yay! Half-illithid gelatinous cube! :rolleyes:
Shemeska the Marauder 09-26-04, 06:49 PM	The half-illithid was reprinted in the Underdark book, which is newer so holds superiority, and is applicable "to any coropreal creature that is not a construct" and are created by magical tampering of the reproduction process, not any direct mating, so it says. Given the physiology of illithids and their method of reproduction by ceremorphosis, that's a patently idiotic idea. You are of course free to do anything in your own games, but it doesn't make it logical or worthy of much respect. Frankly it smacks of munchkinism in the 'how dare you restrict something because of flavor!? Nooooo! I want my half celestial, half dragon, half illithid dire gelatenous cube tarrasque with wings and psion levels!' way. Sure you can feel free to do it in your own game, but it doesn't make it sound intelligent. *shrugs*
kasthevampire 09-26-04, 07:04 PM	Yay! Half-illithid gelatinous cube! :rolleyes: good point it should be any corpal creature that has a brain. lol it would be funny you see this cube with tenticals and a mind blast power