Clockwork Horrors...???!!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Clockwork Horrors...???!!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Magnus1986
04-21-04, 02:01 PM All right, you've probably already discussed this tons of times in this forum already, but I have to ask: What the Hell had gotten into the designers making the clockwork horrors?!

All right, I can accept the electrum and the gold versions, and although CR 7 is a bit low for the platinum horror, I've seen worse violations.

But then there's the Adamantine version.
88 hp; not too great, but not too bad either
AC 28; good for a CR 9 creature.
+8 to initiative and spd 50 ft; VERY good
+18 to hit and almost 20 in average dmg; VERY good
So far, so good. BUT:
Construct traits, SR, immunity to electricity and flat-footing(?) just puts it way out of there. And just to kill any fun for a group: Two instant death spells with high saves and Mordenkainen's disjunction AT WILL!!!

Come on...
was_fired
04-21-04, 02:41 PM Your right the creature is unusable. Not just under CRed it can not be used as written at any CR. At a higher CR it will have too few HP making any battle with it a nuke off and at its current CR it is nearly unbeatable. If you want to use that it has to be completely rewritten and frankly I am too lazy to bother which such a flavorless boss monster.
Vaalingrade Ashland
04-21-04, 05:53 PM Clockwork Horrors seem to have gotten treated as traps.

However, they are useful high CR encounters when you remember thier nature. You're never going to run into a single CH. Oh no, no, no. You're going to hit a nest of about twenty of the suckers that are more than likely controlled by someone.
was_fired
04-21-04, 07:11 PM Val I would agree for all of them except the Adamantium Horror which is the subject of the original and my earlier post. It is described as being a unique creature to explain its power, but they forgot the balance this offensive power with its CR and defensive capacity. Your right it could be treated like a save or die trap (same CR even), but for some reason I don't think most parties would have much fun with a DC 25 disjunction or implossion (I know wizards can easily get it far higher).
Vaalingrade Ashland
04-21-04, 09:12 PM Sorry, whenever I hear 'disjunction' I drown it out with :nonono: . Worst. Spell. Ever.
Shemeska the Marauder
04-21-04, 10:37 PM Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland
Sorry, whenever I hear 'disjunction' I drown it out with :nonono: . Worst. Spell. Ever.

Not if you're the DM... *snicker*

One of my players has gotten nailed by that spell 6 times in the past four sessions, and not out of any undue attention by myself. And this isn't even taking into account his one on one encounter with a triple HD Nishru last session. (each PC was sequestered away to fight a single creature of their choosing when they broke the seal of that being on an iron container keyed to open a door for the group. He chose the one with a riddle hinting at a Nishru. Oh the sweet irony.

"The 4 Disjunctions weren't enough?! Sweet Jesus ARRRGGHH!!!" - that player of mine
Vaalingrade Ashland
04-21-04, 11:31 PM I am the DM and effectively cutting the party's CR in half ain't my idea of good gaming.

Now throw in the fact that this is now being indirectly recomended for use against 9th level parties and you've got yourself an atrocity.

Creatures like this really need extra notation in addition to CR, much like Dragons need.
Baron Phylos
04-22-04, 02:23 PM I'd disregard the CR where the Clockwork Horrors are concerned. Seeing that their typical MO is to overwhelm entire material plane worlds/crystal spheres with gigantic space faring hordes.

The replicators from the Stargate SG1 tv show are basically an underpowered ripoff of the Clockwork Horrors.
NightScreamer20
04-22-04, 02:48 PM How about this?

Adamantine Horror
Small Construct
Hit Dice: 16d10 (88 hp)
Initiative: +8 (Improved initiative)
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 28 (+1 size, +4 Dex, +13 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+3
Attack: Razor saw +18 melee (2d10+7)
Full Attack: Razor saw +18 melee (2d10+7)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Disintegrate, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Construct traits, electricity immunity, linked mind, spell vulnerability, SR 22
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +9, Will +12
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 19, Con -, Int 17, Wis 24, Cha 21
Skills: Escape artist +8, Hide +8, Jump +36, Move Silently +8
Feats: Cleave (B), Great Cleave (B), Improved Initiative (B), Power Attack (B), Sunder (B)
Environment: Any land and underground
Organization: Assembly (1 plus 1-2 platinum horrors, 3-4 gold horrors, and 5-20 electrum horrors)
Challenge Rating: 12
Treasure: 50% coins, 50% goods (gems only)
Alignment: Always Lawful Evil
Advancement: -

Combat
Disintegrate (Sp): Every 1d4+1 rounds an Adamantine Horror may fire a ray of destructive energy. The ray has a range of 120 ft. and only affects the first object in its path; that is, it may not affect more than one target per use. A creature or object struck by the ray must make a DC 22 Fort save, the save DC is Charisma-based. On a failure a creature takes 28d6 damage, a creature brought to 0 or fewer hit points by the ray is entirely disintegrated leaving only a trace of fine dust. On a successful save the creature or object is still dealt 5d6 damage, any creature brought to 0 or fewer hit points is affected normally.
Spell-Like Abilities: 4/day - implosion DC 24; 1/day - mordenkainen's disjunction DC 24. Caster level 14th.
Vaalingrade Ashland
04-22-04, 03:22 PM It still has 88hp, 5 uses of 9th level spell like abilities a day, one of which it the single worst spell at any level, all for a measly CR 9. What exactly did you change?
NightScreamer20
04-22-04, 03:48 PM It's better than being able to use them 'at will', I forgot to change the CR to 16.

And now that's done.
was_fired
04-22-04, 03:51 PM Too weak for a CR 16. All this thing can do is get one MD off which will hopefully do nothing and then die.
NightScreamer20
04-22-04, 04:29 PM CR 12?
Oakspar77777
04-22-04, 06:49 PM Your problem is not with the creature, it is with the MD spell.

Well, get over it. MD is not that broke, in fact, it is right on.

With average treasure per encounter, the average party is going to have slightly above average treasure (to take into account the use of disposable items). This is further expanded by death and XP cost for spells and item creation, since they mean more encounters with treasure per level.

SO, your party gets hit by MD. Not everyone looses their gear. Sure, the fighter is toast, but that is why intellegent fighters take Iron Will.

A few rounds later, the thing is dead, and you have a body made our of Adamantine (plus its little buddies corpses as well). Your fighter can melt it down for his own Adamantine Full Plate (just about the time he should be able to start affording such things). Seems to me he comes out prett good.

Of course, who is getting to the CR9 creature at level 9 anyways? Moreover, who fights it when it is alone? No, CR 9 is just for the XP award for the LV 15 party that is taking out the Clockwork Horrors.
Vaalingrade Ashland
04-22-04, 06:56 PM The first half of your post is dead wrong. The second half is dead right. I'm conflicted.
was_fired
04-22-04, 07:28 PM To be honest mord's disjunction is a lot less threatening to a 9th level party than implossion is. Consider that implossion means a DC 25 fort save or die for one PC a round. A 9th level wizard has a base fort save of +3 with 14 con and a cloak of res +4 this goes all they up to +9. They die 75% of the time. If this battle is going to take 3 rounds going over the standard party which D&D is based upon and the groups cleric and rogue is stated like the wizard they have a fort save of for the cleric +12 which gives a 60% failure rate. So you have a 97.25% chance of losing at least one PC, a 67.5% chance of losing two PCs, and a 33.75% chance of losing three PCs. I would hardly call that one fourth of the parties resources.

Lets look at the 15th level party now without the cloaks of resistance shown above (I have seen many groups like this). You have the wizard and rogue with +7 fort save and a cleric with a +11 to his fort save. See above for the odds except in this case the odds of death are higher.
Ozar
04-22-04, 08:15 PM What book are these in?
ksbsnowowl
04-22-04, 11:29 PM The Monster Manual II, IIRC.
flyingmoose
04-23-04, 12:41 AM Clockwork horrors aren't so tough. The kind of groups you're supposed to encounter work out to about a CR 15 at best. By 15th level, you've got enough at your disposal to take out almost anything your CR given a little lead time and a decent battle plan.

Have any of you actually playtested these with a party of the appropriate level? I'm wondering if anybody has any actual experience with these monsters rather than just a bunch of theory.
Vaalingrade Ashland
04-23-04, 01:15 AM I have, only without the broken spell-like in the adamantine horror.

Approximately thirty CHs in a cave complex taking advantage of cover and the instability of the terrain vs a level 16 party.

The lightning bolts were what gave them the worst problems. The adamantine horror got one shot off from behind a line of electrums before the fighters focused thier firepower on him and the mages sealed him behind a wall of stone.
was_fired
04-23-04, 06:56 AM On a side note CR is a measure for individual creatures and used to assign XP for a battle. EL is for a group of creatures and is used to decide if the encounter is balanced for a group. I could be wrong but I am fairly sure this is how it works. The lowest CR a 14th level party can get XP for fighting is a CR 7.
Magnus1986
04-23-04, 07:18 AM You're right, it's not supposed to come creeping out of a hole in the ground all by itself. But that's not the point. It should still have the CR it deserves!

Anyway, I know for a fact that the PCs in my group would manage, somehow, to fight it by itself. I don't know how they do it, but they always do it.

It would probably start by the rogue skulking in, getting a full overview over the situation. Then, the mage would seal of the adamantine skunk with some spell, or they would simply tear down the walls in the cave to block it off from doing anything.

But wait... the mage can't do a thing, because of M's disjunction, and disintegrate is always a good way to dig out in a round or two... MAN, this thing even prohibits good roleplaying!!!
Shifting Master
04-23-04, 10:26 AM At first glance, this creature seems so incredibly broken that I would never use it. However, after reading the description, it is suddenly obvious that this creature would never be on its own, ever. It would have a dozen other CHs surrounding it. The adamantine horror is designed to be used in a multiple-creature encounter, not alone against PCs. Notice in the organization section that it says 1 + 1d2 platinum + 1d2+2 (3-4) golds and 5d4 (5-20) electrums. With average amounts, this becomes
1 adamantine
2 platinum
3 gold
13 electrum

CR 9 +
2 CR 7=CR 9 +
2 CR 5=CR 7 +
12 CR 4=CR 11 +
1 CR 4 +
1 CR 5

2 CR 9=CR 11 + CR 11=CR 13

CR 13 +
CR 7 +
CR 5 +
CR 4
equals about CR 14. Now I think that these abilities are pretty balanced.

If you don't understand my logic, I don't blame you, but it's something like this.

2 of CR X = 1 CR X + 2
2 to the "n" of CR X = 1 CR X + 2 to the "n"

Look at the XP tables in the DMG. It's pretty accurate, for the most part.
Dackad
04-23-04, 01:40 PM I've always wanted to use the Clockwork Horrors, they seemed pretty cool, but like pretty much everyone else, the Adamantine Horror's Implosion and Disjunction at will kinda turned me off of the idea.

Without those abilities, the Horror isn't really that tough....
Vaalingrade Ashland
04-23-04, 07:06 PM A good idea when using the clockwork horrors in a game is to have them controled by someone else instead of the adamantine horror.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Magnus1986 04-21-04, 02:01 PM	All right, you've probably already discussed this tons of times in this forum already, but I have to ask: What the Hell had gotten into the designers making the clockwork horrors?! All right, I can accept the electrum and the gold versions, and although CR 7 is a bit low for the platinum horror, I've seen worse violations. But then there's the Adamantine version. 88 hp; not too great, but not too bad either AC 28; good for a CR 9 creature. +8 to initiative and spd 50 ft; VERY good +18 to hit and almost 20 in average dmg; VERY good So far, so good. BUT: Construct traits, SR, immunity to electricity and flat-footing(?) just puts it way out of there. And just to kill any fun for a group: Two instant death spells with high saves and Mordenkainen's disjunction AT WILL!!! Come on...
was_fired 04-21-04, 02:41 PM	Your right the creature is unusable. Not just under CRed it can not be used as written at any CR. At a higher CR it will have too few HP making any battle with it a nuke off and at its current CR it is nearly unbeatable. If you want to use that it has to be completely rewritten and frankly I am too lazy to bother which such a flavorless boss monster.
Vaalingrade Ashland 04-21-04, 05:53 PM	Clockwork Horrors seem to have gotten treated as traps. However, they are useful high CR encounters when you remember thier nature. You're never going to run into a single CH. Oh no, no, no. You're going to hit a nest of about twenty of the suckers that are more than likely controlled by someone.
was_fired 04-21-04, 07:11 PM	Val I would agree for all of them except the Adamantium Horror which is the subject of the original and my earlier post. It is described as being a unique creature to explain its power, but they forgot the balance this offensive power with its CR and defensive capacity. Your right it could be treated like a save or die trap (same CR even), but for some reason I don't think most parties would have much fun with a DC 25 disjunction or implossion (I know wizards can easily get it far higher).
Vaalingrade Ashland 04-21-04, 09:12 PM	Sorry, whenever I hear 'disjunction' I drown it out with :nonono: . Worst. Spell. Ever.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-21-04, 10:37 PM	Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland Sorry, whenever I hear 'disjunction' I drown it out with :nonono: . Worst. Spell. Ever. Not if you're the DM... snicker One of my players has gotten nailed by that spell 6 times in the past four sessions, and not out of any undue attention by myself. And this isn't even taking into account his one on one encounter with a triple HD Nishru last session. (each PC was sequestered away to fight a single creature of their choosing when they broke the seal of that being on an iron container keyed to open a door for the group. He chose the one with a riddle hinting at a Nishru. Oh the sweet irony. "The 4 Disjunctions weren't enough?! Sweet Jesus ARRRGGHH!!!" - that player of mine
Vaalingrade Ashland 04-21-04, 11:31 PM	I am the DM and effectively cutting the party's CR in half ain't my idea of good gaming. Now throw in the fact that this is now being indirectly recomended for use against 9th level parties and you've got yourself an atrocity. Creatures like this really need extra notation in addition to CR, much like Dragons need.
Baron Phylos 04-22-04, 02:23 PM	I'd disregard the CR where the Clockwork Horrors are concerned. Seeing that their typical MO is to overwhelm entire material plane worlds/crystal spheres with gigantic space faring hordes. The replicators from the Stargate SG1 tv show are basically an underpowered ripoff of the Clockwork Horrors.
NightScreamer20 04-22-04, 02:48 PM	How about this? Adamantine Horror Small Construct Hit Dice: 16d10 (88 hp) Initiative: +8 (Improved initiative) Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares) Armor Class: 28 (+1 size, +4 Dex, +13 natural) Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+3 Attack: Razor saw +18 melee (2d10+7) Full Attack: Razor saw +18 melee (2d10+7) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Disintegrate, spell-like abilities Special Qualities: Construct traits, electricity immunity, linked mind, spell vulnerability, SR 22 Saves: Fort +5, Ref +9, Will +12 Abilities: Str 20, Dex 19, Con -, Int 17, Wis 24, Cha 21 Skills: Escape artist +8, Hide +8, Jump +36, Move Silently +8 Feats: Cleave (B), Great Cleave (B), Improved Initiative (B), Power Attack (B), Sunder (B) Environment: Any land and underground Organization: Assembly (1 plus 1-2 platinum horrors, 3-4 gold horrors, and 5-20 electrum horrors) Challenge Rating: 12 Treasure: 50% coins, 50% goods (gems only) Alignment: Always Lawful Evil Advancement: - Combat Disintegrate (Sp): Every 1d4+1 rounds an Adamantine Horror may fire a ray of destructive energy. The ray has a range of 120 ft. and only affects the first object in its path; that is, it may not affect more than one target per use. A creature or object struck by the ray must make a DC 22 Fort save, the save DC is Charisma-based. On a failure a creature takes 28d6 damage, a creature brought to 0 or fewer hit points by the ray is entirely disintegrated leaving only a trace of fine dust. On a successful save the creature or object is still dealt 5d6 damage, any creature brought to 0 or fewer hit points is affected normally. Spell-Like Abilities: 4/day - implosion DC 24; 1/day - mordenkainen's disjunction DC 24. Caster level 14th.
Vaalingrade Ashland 04-22-04, 03:22 PM	It still has 88hp, 5 uses of 9th level spell like abilities a day, one of which it the single worst spell at any level, all for a measly CR 9. What exactly did you change?
NightScreamer20 04-22-04, 03:48 PM	It's better than being able to use them 'at will', I forgot to change the CR to 16. And now that's done.
was_fired 04-22-04, 03:51 PM	Too weak for a CR 16. All this thing can do is get one MD off which will hopefully do nothing and then die.
NightScreamer20 04-22-04, 04:29 PM	CR 12?
Oakspar77777 04-22-04, 06:49 PM	Your problem is not with the creature, it is with the MD spell. Well, get over it. MD is not that broke, in fact, it is right on. With average treasure per encounter, the average party is going to have slightly above average treasure (to take into account the use of disposable items). This is further expanded by death and XP cost for spells and item creation, since they mean more encounters with treasure per level. SO, your party gets hit by MD. Not everyone looses their gear. Sure, the fighter is toast, but that is why intellegent fighters take Iron Will. A few rounds later, the thing is dead, and you have a body made our of Adamantine (plus its little buddies corpses as well). Your fighter can melt it down for his own Adamantine Full Plate (just about the time he should be able to start affording such things). Seems to me he comes out prett good. Of course, who is getting to the CR9 creature at level 9 anyways? Moreover, who fights it when it is alone? No, CR 9 is just for the XP award for the LV 15 party that is taking out the Clockwork Horrors.
Vaalingrade Ashland 04-22-04, 06:56 PM	The first half of your post is dead wrong. The second half is dead right. I'm conflicted.
was_fired 04-22-04, 07:28 PM	To be honest mord's disjunction is a lot less threatening to a 9th level party than implossion is. Consider that implossion means a DC 25 fort save or die for one PC a round. A 9th level wizard has a base fort save of +3 with 14 con and a cloak of res +4 this goes all they up to +9. They die 75% of the time. If this battle is going to take 3 rounds going over the standard party which D&D is based upon and the groups cleric and rogue is stated like the wizard they have a fort save of for the cleric +12 which gives a 60% failure rate. So you have a 97.25% chance of losing at least one PC, a 67.5% chance of losing two PCs, and a 33.75% chance of losing three PCs. I would hardly call that one fourth of the parties resources. Lets look at the 15th level party now without the cloaks of resistance shown above (I have seen many groups like this). You have the wizard and rogue with +7 fort save and a cleric with a +11 to his fort save. See above for the odds except in this case the odds of death are higher.
Ozar 04-22-04, 08:15 PM	What book are these in?
ksbsnowowl 04-22-04, 11:29 PM	The Monster Manual II, IIRC.
flyingmoose 04-23-04, 12:41 AM	Clockwork horrors aren't so tough. The kind of groups you're supposed to encounter work out to about a CR 15 at best. By 15th level, you've got enough at your disposal to take out almost anything your CR given a little lead time and a decent battle plan. Have any of you actually playtested these with a party of the appropriate level? I'm wondering if anybody has any actual experience with these monsters rather than just a bunch of theory.
Vaalingrade Ashland 04-23-04, 01:15 AM	I have, only without the broken spell-like in the adamantine horror. Approximately thirty CHs in a cave complex taking advantage of cover and the instability of the terrain vs a level 16 party. The lightning bolts were what gave them the worst problems. The adamantine horror got one shot off from behind a line of electrums before the fighters focused thier firepower on him and the mages sealed him behind a wall of stone.
was_fired 04-23-04, 06:56 AM	On a side note CR is a measure for individual creatures and used to assign XP for a battle. EL is for a group of creatures and is used to decide if the encounter is balanced for a group. I could be wrong but I am fairly sure this is how it works. The lowest CR a 14th level party can get XP for fighting is a CR 7.
Magnus1986 04-23-04, 07:18 AM	You're right, it's not supposed to come creeping out of a hole in the ground all by itself. But that's not the point. It should still have the CR it deserves! Anyway, I know for a fact that the PCs in my group would manage, somehow, to fight it by itself. I don't know how they do it, but they always do it. It would probably start by the rogue skulking in, getting a full overview over the situation. Then, the mage would seal of the adamantine skunk with some spell, or they would simply tear down the walls in the cave to block it off from doing anything. But wait... the mage can't do a thing, because of M's disjunction, and disintegrate is always a good way to dig out in a round or two... MAN, this thing even prohibits good roleplaying!!!
Shifting Master 04-23-04, 10:26 AM	At first glance, this creature seems so incredibly broken that I would never use it. However, after reading the description, it is suddenly obvious that this creature would never be on its own, ever. It would have a dozen other CHs surrounding it. The adamantine horror is designed to be used in a multiple-creature encounter, not alone against PCs. Notice in the organization section that it says 1 + 1d2 platinum + 1d2+2 (3-4) golds and 5d4 (5-20) electrums. With average amounts, this becomes 1 adamantine 2 platinum 3 gold 13 electrum CR 9 + 2 CR 7=CR 9 + 2 CR 5=CR 7 + 12 CR 4=CR 11 + 1 CR 4 + 1 CR 5 2 CR 9=CR 11 + CR 11=CR 13 CR 13 + CR 7 + CR 5 + CR 4 equals about CR 14. Now I think that these abilities are pretty balanced. If you don't understand my logic, I don't blame you, but it's something like this. 2 of CR X = 1 CR X + 2 2 to the "n" of CR X = 1 CR X + 2 to the "n" Look at the XP tables in the DMG. It's pretty accurate, for the most part.
Dackad 04-23-04, 01:40 PM	I've always wanted to use the Clockwork Horrors, they seemed pretty cool, but like pretty much everyone else, the Adamantine Horror's Implosion and Disjunction at will kinda turned me off of the idea. Without those abilities, the Horror isn't really that tough....
Vaalingrade Ashland 04-23-04, 07:06 PM	A good idea when using the clockwork horrors in a game is to have them controled by someone else instead of the adamantine horror.