Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Return of the Flumph 08-25-07, 03:18 AM	I like clockwork horrors. They are cool looking, they are menacing, and their fluff is killer. Unfortunately, their stats in the MM2 are, well, boring. Each form of clockwork horror is the same as the one before it, except with a few more hit dice and spell like abilities. Additionally, the famously broken adamantine horror deters many people from ever using these creatures at all. These are my homebrew clockwork horrors. Their fluff is identical to that in the MM2, but I have attempted to make them more diverse, more interesting, more balanced, and cover a wider CR range. A lot of these horrors are probably broken or miscalculated in one way or another, which is why I am posting them here for your PEACHing. Enjoy, and please, critique away. Slag Horror (prospector) Small Construct Hit Dice: 1d10 (5 hp) Initiative: +0 Speed: 30 ft./burrow 10 ft. Armor Class: 13 (+1 size, +2 natural) touch 11, flat footed 13 Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-4 Attack: 2 picks +2 melee (1d4) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Cavity Special Qualities: hive mind, tremorsense (30), skills Saves: Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +0 Abilities: Str 10, Dex 10, Con -, Int 4, Wis 10, Cha 4 Skills: Appraise (+4), Profession (Miner) (+4) Feats: Weapon Focus (picks) Challenge Rating: ½ Treasure: - Alignment: Always lawful evil Advancement: - Grayish and ugly, these frail, spindly horrors have a pair of small mining picks mounted on two short, stubby arms. Slag horrors are the lowest and cheapest form of clockwork horror, made from melted down scrap metal. Never sent into battle, slag horrors serve as the workers of the clockwork horror colony, digging tunnels, setting up fortifications, mining ore in safely captured territory, and performing other mindless tasks. In combat, they are used to deliver ammo to the clockwork hordes. Combat Slag horrors retreat from danger unless they are either cornered, or outnumber their opponents tremendously. They often burrow into the ground to escape attackers, and use their hive mind to call for backup. Cavity (Ex): A slag horror has a cavity inside its body that can hold various cargo. While most often used to transport ore, they can also be loaded with clips of shurikens and pressure darts. A slag horror can carry up to five clips, each holding ten blades or darts, at a time. Inserting them into a friendly clockwork horror takes a full round, during which time both horrors can take no other actions. Hive Mind (Ex): All clockwork horrors within fifty miles of each other can communicate telepathically at will. If one clockwork horror sees something interesting or dangerous, all of the others instantly know it. If one clockwork horror within this area is not flat footed or flanked, none of them are. Furthermore, if more than one clockwork horror gang up on a single opponent, they gain a +1 synergy bonus to attack rolls for every two horrors assisting. Lead Horror (Repairman) Small Construct Hit Dice: 1d10+10 (15 hp) Initiative: +1 Speed: 30 ft. Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, +1 dex, +3 natural) touch 12, flat footed 14 Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-3 Attack: claw +2 melee (1d6+1) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Spell Like Abilities Special Qualities: hive mind, tremorsense (30), skills Saves: Fort +0, Ref +1, Will +0 Abilities: Str 12, Dex 12, Con -, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 6 Skills: Knowledge (mechanics) (+5), Profession (Engineer) (+10) Feats: Dodge Challenge Rating: 1 Treasure: - Alignment: Always lawful evil Advancement: - Roundish in shape, these horrors have a single, three fingered claw on their lone arms. Kept just behind the front line, lead horrors are the engineers and repairmen of the clockwork hordes, serving the same function that healers do in living armies. Outside of combat, the lead horrors are charged with running the factories where more clockwork horrors are built. Although slightly tougher than slag horrors, they are not fighters, and will try to run and hide behind tougher horrors unless cornered. Combat While it can defend itself reasonably well, the purpose of a lead horror is to heal the other clockwork horrors around it and forge the parts to craft more soldiers. In addition to its mending ability, it can use its Profession (Engineering) skill to heal constructs in the same way that the Heal skill heals living things. Spell Like Abilities (Sp): 6/day-mending (heals clockwork horrors as a cure light wounds spell, caster level 5). Hive Mind (Ex): All clockwork horrors within fifty miles of each other can communicate telepathically at will. If one clockwork horror sees something interesting or dangerous, all of the others instantly know it. If one clockwork horror within this area is not flat footed or flanked, none of them are. Furthermore, if more than one clockwork horror gang up on a single opponent, they gain a +1 synergy bonus to attack rolls for every two horrors assisting. Iron Horror (Cannon Fodder) Small Construct Hit Dice: 3d10+10 (26 hp) Initiative: +1 Speed: 30 ft. Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, +1 dex, +3 natural) touch 12, flat footed 14 Base Attack/Grapple: +2/-2 Attack: blade +5 melee (1d8+3), pressure dart +3 ranged (1d8) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: - Special Qualities: hive mind, tremorsense (30) Saves: Fort +2, Ref +1, Will +0 Abilities: Str 14, Dex 12, Con -, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 6 Skills: Spot +2, Listen +3 Feats: Weapon Focus (blade), Dodge Challenge Rating: 2 Treasure: - Alignment: Always lawful evil Advancement: - These drones have a thin layer of extra plating, and have a blade similar to that of a battleaxe attached to their single arms. There is also a strange, tubelike orifice mounted just above the "head," from which emerges the tip of a dart. Iron horrors are by far the most common type of clockwork horror. These are the rank and file troops of the clockwork hive, flowing over the ground and through the tunnels like a river of bloodthirsty machinery. Disciplined and completely obediant, iron horrors make up for their stupidity by following the orders of more intelligent horrors to the letter. Highly disposable, iron horrors are used for both offense and defense, and almost always appear in large numbers. Combat Unlike slag and lead horrors, iron horrors are designed to fight, and do so fearlessly. Iron horrors have absolutely no instinct for self preservation, and willingly lay down their lives whenever and for whatever reason their superiors dictate. The pressure dart launcher built into the iron horror acts in all ways as a light crossbow, and can hold up to ten darts at a time. Hive Mind (Ex): All clockwork horrors within fifty miles of each other can communicate telepathically at will. If one clockwork horror sees something interesting or dangerous, all of the others instantly know it. If one clockwork horror within this area is not flat footed or flanked, none of them are. Furthermore, if more than one clockwork horror gang up on a single opponent, they gain a +1 synergy bonus to attack rolls for every two horrors assisting. Rust Horror (Pillager) Small Construct Hit Dice: 4d10-10 (12 hp) Initiative: +4 Speed: 30 ft. Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, +4 dex) touch 15, flat footed 11 Base Attack/Grapple: +3/-1 Attack: claw +8 melee (1d4), or touch +8 melee (rusting grasp) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Rust Special Qualities: hive mind, immune to rust, tremorsense (30) Saves: Fort +0, Ref +4, Will +0 Abilities: Str 10, Dex 18, Con -, Int 4, Wis 10, Cha 6 Skills: Spot +3, Listen +4 Feats: Weapon Finesse, Ability Focus (rust) Challenge Rating: 2 Treasure: - Alignment: Always lawful evil Advancement: - This clockwork horror appears to be a crumbling, rusted wreck. But it is still, somehow, moving toward you as if nothing was wrong. If a clockwork horror is subjected to a rust effect (such as a rusting grasp spell or a rust monster's attacks) it is transformed into a rust horror. Although extremely fragile due to their unstable composition, rust horrors are useful on the battlefield because of their ability to destroy the enemy's weapons and armor. They are almost always sent on raids, so that they can convert enemy metal into rust, making it easier for the slag horrors to carry it home. When the hive needs more rust horrors, it has its existing ones transform some others. If it needs fewer, the gold horrors restore some of them to their prior state. Rust (Su): A rust horror can cause metal objects to rust and disintegrate. If it hits an armored opponent, he or she must succeed at a reflex save (DC 18) or lose the armor. If the rust horror chooses to attack an opponent's weapon (treat as a disarm attempt, but use the opponent's touch AC), the weapon is rusted. The horror can effect up to fifty pounds of metal in a round with this ability. It can even use this to turn other clockwork horrors into more rust horrors. The gold horrors can reverse the transformation. Bronze Horror (Corporal) Small Construct Hit Dice: 5d10+10 (37 hp) Initiative: +0 Speed: 30 ft. Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +4 natural, +2 shield) touch 13, flat footed 15 Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+2 Attack: blade +7 melee (1d8+4) or pressure dart +5 ranged (1d8+1d6 lightning) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Offensive Posture, Scuttle, Charged Darts, Power Surge Special Qualities: hive mind, resist lightning (5), tremorsense (30) Saves: Fort +1, Ref +1, Will +1 Abilities: Str 16, Dex 10, Con -, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8 Skills: Spot +3, Listen +3, Climb +4, Balance +6 Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (pressure dart) Challenge Rating: 4 Treasure: - Alignment: Always lawful evil Advancement: - These horrors resemble the iron horrors in structure, but have sawlike blades instead of axe heads and also have another arm, this one bearing a shield. Combat subcommanders, bronze horrors are responsible for coordinating groups of iron horrors both in and out of battle. They act as intermediaries between the officers and cannon fodder, each one commanding a small squad of iron horrors and usually supported by one or two lead horrors. They are also fearsome combatants in their own right, and fight more effectively than their underlings in every way imaginable. Combat The chiefest advantage of a bronze horror is its mobility. They scuttle at will across the backs of their iron minions, darting to the most advantagous spot on the battlefield. A bronze horror will usually hang back and shoot for a few rounds while its minions attack in melee before closing in to finish the enemy with their massive blades. Offensive Posture (Ex): By lowering its shield and leaving itself more room to swing, a bronze horror can subtract 2 from its armor class but add 2 to its attack rolls. It must decide whether or not to do this every round. Scuttle (Ex): A bronze horror can walk across and even attack from the backs of other clockwork horrors, literally climbing over dozens of grunts to get to an optimal position. It must succeed at a Balance check (DC 12) every round in order to be able to act from their backs, and suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls. Charged Darts (Ex): Anyone hit by a bronze horror’s pressure darts takes 1d6 lightning damage. Power Surge (Ex): Once per minute, a bronze horror can act as if hasted for one round. Hive Mind (Ex): All clockwork horrors within fifty miles of each other can communicate telepathically at will. If one clockwork horror sees something interesting or dangerous, all of the others instantly know it. If one clockwork horror within this area is not flat footed or flanked, none of them are. Furthermore, if more than one clockwork horror gang up on a single opponent, they gain a +1 synergy bonus to attack rolls for every two horrors assisting. Copper Horror (Scout) Small Construct Hit Dice: 7d10+10 (48 hp) Initiative: +7 Speed: 40 ft./climb 30 ft./burrow 10 ft. Armor Class: 18 (+1 size, +3 dex, +4 natural) touch 12, flat footed 14 Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+3 Attack: drill +8 melee (2d4+3 and 1d6 lightning), or 2 pressure darts +9 ranged (1d8) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Silence, Eavesdropper, Charged Body, Breath Weapon, Self Destruct Special Qualities: hive mind, resist fire and lightning 5, extra quiver, tremorsense (60) Saves: Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +3 Abilities: Str 14, Dex 16, Con -, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 10 Skills: Spot +14, Listen +14, Search +7, Hide +11, Tumble +4, Move Silently +10 Feats: Improved Initiative, Run, Alertness Challenge Rating: 6 Treasure: - Alignment: Always lawful evil Advancement: - Covered with ridges and grooves, copper horrors have a noselike limb and two dart launchers, as well as a small, smoking "mouth." Although primarily used for spying and recon missions, copper horrors have many other uses as well, from elite combat troops to kamikazi suicide bombers. Cunning and resourceful, copper horrors act with greater independence than any other type of horror short of a gold. Combat Knowing themselves to be valuable to the hive, copper horrors are very crafty in maximizing their own usefulness. They creep across walls and ceilings to flank opponents, drop from the ceiling to explode on contact with the floor, and use a host of other tricks. When spying, they are good at remaining inconspicuous, and flee quickly and intelligently if discovered unless ordered to do otherwise. If cornered and clearly outmatched, or if ordered to, a copper horror will attempt to self destruct. Silence (Su): A copper horror makes no sound whatsoever. This is a magical effect, and can be dispelled or suppressed. Eavesdropper (Ex): A copper horror records everything it sees or hears within a “block box” inside its body cavity. If the horror is killed, there is a 25% chance of the box being destroyed, while a successful self destruct always destroys it. If a light spell is cast on the box, it replays everything the horror has seen and saved in a holographic form. If ghost sound is cast, it plays all the sounds it has heard and saved. Another copper horror can assimilate the information from another black box simply by holding it for a full round. The horror can save up to six hours worth of material at a time. Additional material cannot be saved to the blockbox once it has been removed from the horror. Charged Body (Ex): Any who make contact with the horror’s body, are hit by its drill, or touch it with unpadded metal objects (weapons with coated or nonmetal hilts don’t count) take 1d6 points of lightning damage. Breath Weapon (Su): Every other round, a copper horror can breath a cone of fire fifteen feet long, dealing 4d6 points of fire damage. A reflex save (DC 15) halves the damage. The save DC is strength based. Self Destruct (Su): As a full round action, a copper horror can explode, dealing 6d6 damage (half normal, half fire) to all within five feet. A reflex save (DC 15) halves the damage. This action takes a full round to use, and only succeeds if the horror is still alive at the end of its fatal round. A whirring sound is heard from within the creature’s body during these last six seconds. The save DC is strength based. Hive Mind (Ex): All clockwork horrors within fifty miles of each other can communicate telepathically at will. If one clockwork horror sees something interesting or dangerous, all of the others instantly know it. If one clockwork horror within this area is not flat footed or flanked, none of them are. Furthermore, if more than one clockwork horror gang up on a single opponent, they gain a +1 synergy bonus to attack rolls for every two horrors assisting. Silver Horror (air support) Small Construct Hit Dice: 9d10+10 (59 hp) Initiative: +5 Speed: 30 ft./fly 60 ft. (perfect) Armor Class: 22 (+1 size, +5 dex, +6 natural) touch 16, flat footed 17 Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+4 Attack: 4 claws +9 melee (1d6+2 and poison) (can only use 2 claws when grounded), or 3 shuriken +12 ranged (2 damage) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Poison, Glare, Self Destruct, Spell Like Abilities Special Qualities: hive mind, resist fire and lightning 10, tremorsense (30) Saves: Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +4 Abilities: Str 14, Dex 20, Con -, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 12 Skills: Spot +8, Listen +4, Concentrate +26, Tumble +18, Swim +8 Feats: Flyby Attack, Ability Focus (poison), Maximize Spell (magic missile), Extend Spell (melf’s acid arrow) Challenge Rating: 7 Treasure: - Alignment: Always lawful evil Advancement: - These gleaming horrors are slightly more elongated than most, and have two pairs of mechanical wasp wings. Its feet are tipped with dripping scythe blades, and its front is adorned with a complex array of crystals and metal spines. Silver horrors are the air support, hunters, and elite sentinels of the hive. Whether chasing down fleeing opponents, seeking out distant ore deposits for the bronze horrors to further examine, or swooping down on embattled opponents and slicing them with their poisoned claws while their earthbound kin surround them, silvers are some of the most aggressive and fearsome soldiers in the hive. Combat Evasive but aggressive, silver horrors excel at stalking their prey and making hit and run attacks. The crystals on their bodies can emit a blinding light, and they weild powerful offensive spells. When faced with magically resistant foes, they fire volleys of shuriken-like blades instead. They usually avoid melee unless they can catch the enemy flat footed. Poison (Ex): Claw. First and secondary damage 2 constitution. Fortitude save DC 18. The save DC is strength based. Glare (Ex): All who look directly at a silver horror from within sixty feet must succeed at a fortitude save (DC 14) each round, or be dazzled for one round. The save DC increases by 2 for every additional horror within ten feet of the one being looked at. The horror can supress or resume this ability as a free action. While active, the horror illuminates a sixty foot radius. Spell Like Abilities (Sp): At will-magic missile 1/day-shield, true strike, melf’s acid arrow. The save DC’s are charisma based. Self Destruct (Su): When reduced to 15 hit points or less, a silver horror can use its body as a missile for a kamikaze strike. The construct charges through the air at a target within one hundred and twenty feet and makes a touch attack. If it hits, both the horror and the target take 1d6 damage per ten feet traveled, max 10d6. A reflex save (DC 16) halves the damage. The save DC is strength based. Hive Mind (Ex): All clockwork horrors within fifty miles of each other can communicate telepathically at will. If one clockwork horror sees something interesting or dangerous, all of the others instantly know it. If one clockwork horror within this area is not flat footed or flanked, none of them are. Furthermore, if more than one clockwork horror gang up on a single opponent, they gain a +1 synergy bonus to attack rolls for every two horrors assisting. Electrum Horror (heavy assault) Small Construct Hit Dice: 11d10+10 (70 hp) Initiative: +2 Speed: 30 ft. Armor Class: 21 (+1 size, +2 dex, +8 natural) touch 13, flat footed 21 Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+18 Attack: +1 halberd +16/+11 melee (1d10+10 and 2d6 lightning), or battering ram +15 melee (1d6+9, 2d6 lightning, and shatter) or pressure dart +11 ranged (1d10 damage and 2d6 lightning) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Charged Body, Offensive Posture, Clout Special Qualities: hive mind, resist fire, lightning, and acid 10, SR 19, fast healing (2), tremorsense (30) Saves: Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +4 Abilities: Str 22, Dex 14, Con -, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 16 Skills: Jump +20, Climb +20, Tumble +11, Swim +11, Balance +12, Spot +6 Feats: Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Improved Grapple Challenge Rating: 8 Treasure: - Alignment: Always lawful evil Advancement: - Covered in layer upon layer of armored carapace and tipped with a long, serrated polearm "nose," this box shaped horror is studded with spikes, red gems that glow like evil eyes, and bits of wire. Beneath the halberd and dart launcher is a spring-loaded battering ram, retracted under the construct's belly for now. Electrum horrors are heavy seige units, used to batter down fortifications, stop powerful enemies in their tracks, and cut a swath through enemy foot soldiers. Despite their relatively high intelligence and good grasp of strategy, electrum horrors are capable of only limited independent action, and rarely give orders to their lessers. Combat An electrum horror is very good at doing one thing; breaking stuff. Whether the "stuff" happens to be a building or a living creature matters only in deciding whether to use the halberd or the ram. Rushing into melee at the head of the clockwork army, electrum horrors use pressure darts only when they cannot reach their enemies with their melee weapons. Charged Body (Ex): Any who make contact with the horror’s body, are hit by any of its listed attacks, or touch it with unpadded metal objects (weapons with coated or nonmetal hilts don’t count) take 2d6 points of lightning damage. Offensive Posture (Ex): As a standard action, an electrum horror can increase its combat effectiveness at the cost of mobility. It cannot move and its dexterity decreases to 10. However, it gains the ability to make two full attacks in a round. Clout (Ex): Anyone hit by an electrum horror’s battering ram must succeed at an opposed strength check or be knocked prone. Hive Mind (Ex): All clockwork horrors within fifty miles of each other can communicate telepathically at will. If one clockwork horror sees something interesting or dangerous, all of the others instantly know it. If one clockwork horror within this area is not flat footed or flanked, none of them are. Furthermore, if more than one clockwork horror gang up on a single opponent, they gain a +1 synergy bonus to attack rolls for every two horrors assisting. Gold Horror (spellcaster) Small Construct Hit Dice: 13d10+10 (81 hp) Initiative: +3 Speed: 30 ft. Armor Class: 21 (+1 size, +3 dex, +8 natural) touch 14, flat footed 19 Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+6 Attack: 2 +1 claws +11 melee (1d4+2 and 2d6 lightning) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Charged Body, Restore Metal, Transit Tunnel, Spell Like Abilities Special Qualities: hive mind, immune to rust, resist fire, lightning, and acid 10, SR 23, fast healing (5), tremorsense (30) Saves: Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +6 Abilities: Str 12, Dex 14, Con -, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 16 Skills: Concentrate +26, Spellcraft +23, Spot +15, Listen +15, Hide +16 Feats: Spell Focus (evocation), Improved Spell Resistance, Spell Penetration, Maximize Spell (lightning), Quicken Spell (obscuring mist) Challenge Rating: 10 Treasure: - Alignment: Always lawful evil Advancement: - Perfectly ball shaped, gold horrors have thin arms with small, scissorlike claws. Elite troubleshooters, gold horrors stay behind the front line and either buff the frontline fighters, or cast offensive spells at the enemy. Extremely intelligent and capable, gold horrors know a dozen uses for each of their spell like abilities, and use them with maximal efficiency and restraint (or lack thereof, depending on the situation). Most important is their ability to transport other clockwork horrors over large distances twice per day. Combat Gold horrors are never encountered without plenty of lesser horrors to guard them, and give orders frequently to their inferiors. Although they're defenses are intimidating, they will try to flee via transit tunnel if it looks like the enemy will be getting close enough to do any real damage. Charged Body (Ex): Any who make contact with the horror’s body, are hit by any of its claw attacks, or touch it with unpadded metal objects (weapons with coated or nonmetal hilts don’t count) take 2d6 points of lightning damage. Restore Metal (Su): A gold horror can restore rusted or corrupted metal back into its original state. It can effect up to fifty pounds of metal each round, and must touch it in order to do so. This ability is often used to cash in on the resources collected by the rust horrors. This ability is also capable of restoring a rust horror to its original state. Transit Tunnel (Su): Twice per day, as a full round action, two gold horrors within fifty miles of each other can open a dimensional conduit between one another for one round. This wormhole is five feet wide, and allows creatures and objects to travel from one place to the other. This is generally used either to call for reinforcements, or as an escape. Spell Like Abilities (Sp): At will-ray of frost, mage hand, lightning (DC 18), sound burst (DC 17), obscuring mist 3/day-bull’s strength, cat’s grace, fox’s cunning, owl’s wisdom, eagle’s splendor, dispel magic, wall of force, resilient shield, wall of fire (DC 19) 1/day-cone of cold, greater shadow conjuration. The save DC’s are charisma based. Hive Mind (Ex): All clockwork horrors within fifty miles of each other can communicate telepathically at will. If one clockwork horror sees something interesting or dangerous, all of the others instantly know it. If one clockwork horror within this area is not flat footed or flanked, none of them are. Furthermore, if more than one clockwork horror gang up on a single opponent, they gain a +1 synergy bonus to attack rolls for every two horrors assisting. Platinum Horror (field commander) Small Construct Hit Dice: 15d10+10 (92 hp) Initiative: +7 Speed: 30 ft. Armor Class: 25 (+1 size, +5 dex, +9 natural) touch 16, flat footed 19 Base Attack/Grapple: +11/+18 Attack: 3 +2 ghost touch tentacles +21 melee (2d6+9 and paralysis), or 2 sonic lances +19 ranged touch (5d6 sonic) Space/Reach: 5 ft./10 ft. Special Attacks: Paralysis, Improved Grab, Spinning Barbs, Summon Clockwork Horrors, Incorporeality, Spell Like Abilities Special Qualities: hive mind, immune to rust, resist fire, lightning, and acid 15, SR 23, fast healing (10), tremorsense (30) Saves: Fort +3, Ref +10, Will +8 Abilities: Str 24, Dex 24, Con -, Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 20 Skills: lots Feats: Combat Reflexes, Expertise, Improved Natural Attack (tentacles), Improved Trip, Dodge, Expert Grappler Challenge Rating: 12 Treasure: - Alignment: Always lawful evil Advancement: - Platinum horrors have three long, barbed wires waving in front of them like tentacles, and two nodules on the sides that resemble tiny megaphones. Generals and field marshals of the clockwork horrors, platinum horrors are strategic geniuses, and command the many ranks of lesser horror with complete confidence and capability. Although they usually hang back and issue orders and cast spells, watching the battle from distant safety, they do not hesitate to attack in person if they calculate that the odds are high enough in their favor. Combat If approached by enemies, a platinum horror will (after summoning backup, if it feels it needs it) cast mass slow or mass hold monster on the enemy before lashing out viciously with its tentacles and instructing its minions to surround the enemy. If it believes it is about to lose, it will teleport itself and its most valuable surviving minions to safety. Paralysis (Su): Anyone struck by a platinum horror’s tentacle must succeed at a fortitude save (DC 22) or be paralyzed for one round. The save DC is charisma based. Improved Grab (Ex): Tentacle. Deals automatic tentacle damage each round the hold is maintained. If it gets a hold, it can use its spinning barbs. Spinning Barbs (Ex): A platinum horror can cause the spikes on its tentacles to vibrate and whirl, tearing the flesh of whatever it grapples. A grappled creature takes an additional 2d6 damage each round. The total damage is thus 4d6+9. Call Clockwork Horrors (Su): Once per day, an electrum horror can call one gold horror, two electrum horrors, or four of any lesser clockwork horrors. Incorporeality (Su): Once per minute, an electrum horror can become incorporeal for one round as a free action. Spell Like Abilities (Sp): constant-true seeing, detect magic, detect life forms, detect scrying at will-mass slow (DC 18), mass haste, telekinesis (DC 20), mage armor, message, dimensional anchor, banish, false image, 1/day-telepathic bond, prying eyes, clairvoyance, invisibility sphere, enervation (DC 19), mass hold monster (DC 24), guards and wards, mass teleport. The save DC’s are charisma based. Hive Mind (Ex): All clockwork horrors within fifty miles of each other can communicate telepathically at will. If one clockwork horror sees something interesting or dangerous, all of the others instantly know it. If one clockwork horror within this area is not flat footed or flanked, none of them are. Furthermore, if more than one clockwork horror gang up on a single opponent, they gain a +1 synergy bonus to attack rolls for every two horrors assisting. Mithril Horror (elite sentinel) Medium Construct Hit Dice: 17d10+20 (113 hp) Initiative: +3 Speed: 40 ft. Armor Class: 28 (+3 dex, +14 natural) touch 13, flat footed 24 Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+21 Attack: 2 +2 omnistriking keen claws +24 melee (1d12+13 and 2d8 lightning), 4 +1 pressure darts +16 ranged (1d8+1 and 2d8 lightning), or +1 keen screw +16 ranged (2d6+5 and 2d8 lightning and impalement) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Impalement, Charged Body Special Qualities: hive mind, immune to rust, resist fire, lightning, and acid 15, resist cold and sonic 5, SR 24, fast healing (10), tremorsense (30), hardness 3 Saves: Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +10 Abilities: Str 28, Dex 16, Con -, Int 12, Wis 22, Cha 16 Skills: lots Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Sunder, Weapon Focus (claws), Weapon Specialization (claws), Improved Critical (claws) Challenge Rating: 13 Treasure: - Alignment: Always lawful evil Advancement: - Mithril horrors are more than twice the size of a normal clockwork horror, measuring seven feet long and four feet tall at the knee. They have a pair of massive, lobsterlike claws, as well as what looks like a power drill emerging from its front end. These are the personal bodyguards of the adamantine horror. They never give orders, or even speak. They just guard the Central Hive. Combat Bigger and stronger than other clockwork horrors, these constructs exist only to detect and kill intruders. Notable about them are the giant, spinning drills they fire in ranged combat. A mithril horror can carry up to three of these screws. Impalement (Ex): Anyone hit by a mithril horror’s screw must succeed at a reflex save (DC 27) or the screw gets stuck in the flesh, continuing to rotate. Those who fail the save continue to take 2d6 piercing and 2d8 lightning damage for 1d4 rounds. Charged Body (Ex): Any who make contact with the horror’s body, are hit by any of its attacks, or touch it with unpadded metal objects (weapons with coated or nonmetal hilts don’t count) take 2d8 points of lightning damage. Hive Mind (Ex): All clockwork horrors within fifty miles of each other can communicate telepathically at will. If one clockwork horror sees something interesting or dangerous, all of the others instantly know it. If one clockwork horror within this area is not flat footed or flanked, none of them are. Furthermore, if more than one clockwork horror gang up on a single opponent, they gain a +1 synergy bonus to attack rolls for every two horrors assisting. Adamantine Horror (mastermind) Small Construct Hit Dice: 20d10+10 (120 hp) Initiative: +11 Speed: 60 ft./burrow 60 ft./climb 60 ft./swim 60 ft. Armor Class: 33 (+1 size, +7 dex, +15 natural) touch 18, flat footed 26 Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+20 Attack: +3 omnistriking great sword of wounding +28/+23/+18 melee (1d10+16) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Spiked Carapace, Giant Size, Caustic Fumes, Ignition, Death Throws, Spell Like Abilities Special Qualities: hive mind, immune to rust resist fire, lightning, and acid 15, resist cold and sonic 5, SR 28, fast healing (15), tremorsense (30), hardness 5 Saves: Fort +5, Ref +12, Will +12 Abilities: Str 28, Dex 24, Con -, Int 26, Wis 24, Cha 24 Skills: lots Feats: Spell Focus (transmutation), Quicken Spell (plane shift), Ability Focus (ignition), Improved Spell Resistance, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Cleave Challenge Rating: 15 Treasure: - Alignment: Always lawful evil Blacker than charcoal and spiked like a sea urchin, this horror just says "don't **** with me" all over it. It has two arms, one ending in an oversized greatsword, the other in a small, mechanical hand. In the center of its "face" is a single, gigantic red gem, glowing painfully bright with hatred and greed. This is the supreme leader of all the clockwork horrors in existence. Fear it. Combat Kills people. Spiked Carapace (Ex): The adamantine horror’s body is covered with spikes that deal 1d4+9 damage per round to anyone grappling the construct. Giant Size (Su): Once per day, the adamantine horror can become Huge for one hour. During this time, it gains the stat block given below. Caustic Fumes (Ex): The adamantine horror can surround itself with a cloud of poisonous gases for a thirty foot radius. This functions as a nonmagical acid fog that lasts 1d4 rounds after the round it is emitted. The horror can spend a standard action to replenish the fumes before this time has elapsed. It can also use the fumes to fuel its ignition ability. Ignition (Su): The adamantine horror can cause its cloud of fumes to burst into flames. This ends the caustic fume cloud, but deals 15d6 fire damage to all besides the adamantine horror within the area. A reflex save (DC 29) halves the damage. The save DC is charisma based. Death Throws (Su): The round after it dies, the adamantine horror’s body begins making a soft, whirring sound (Listen DC 25). The sound grows gradually louder (the Listen DC decreases by 5 every round) for ten rounds, at which point the horror’s body explodes. The blast deals 20d6 damage (half normal, half sonic) to all within 100 feet, and ignores hardness (allowing it to collapse rooms and caverns). A reflex save (DC 27) halves the damage. The save DC is charisma based. Spell Like Abilities (Sp): At will-disintegrate (DC 26), scrying, sending 1/day-greater teleport, plane shift, implosion (DC 28). The save DC’s are charisma based. Hive Mind (Ex): All clockwork horrors within fifty miles of each other can communicate telepathically at will. If one clockwork horror sees something interesting or dangerous, all of the others instantly know it. If one clockwork horror within this area is not flat footed or flanked, none of them are. Furthermore, if more than one clockwork horror gang up on a single opponent, they gain a +1 synergy bonus to attack rolls for every two horrors assisting. Adamantine Horror (giant size) Huge Construct Hit Dice: 20d10+40 (150 hp) Initiative: +8 Speed: 60 ft./burrow 60 ft./climb 60 ft./swim 60 ft. Armor Class: 34 (-2 size, +4 dex, +22 natural) touch 12, flat footed 30 Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+39 Attack: +3 omnistriking great sword of wounding +32/+27/+22 melee (2d10+27) Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft. Special Attacks: Spiked Carapace, Caustic Fumes, Ignition, Death Throws, Spell Like Abilities Special Qualities: hive mind, immune to rust, resist fire, lightning, and acid 15, resist cold and sonic 5, SR 28, fast healing (15), tremorsense (30), hardness 5 Saves: Fort +5, Ref +9, Will +12 Abilities: Str 42, Dex 18, Con -, Int 26, Wis 24, Cha 24 Skills: lots Feats: Spell Focus (transmutation), Quicken Spell (plane shift), Ability Focus (ignition), Improved Spell Resistance, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Cleave Challenge Rating: 15 Treasure: - Alignment: Always lawful evil Spiked Carapace (Ex): The adamantine horror’s body is covered with spikes that deal 1d10+16 damage per round to anyone grappling the construct. Caustic Fumes (Ex): The adamantine horror can surround itself with a cloud of poisonous gases for a sixty foot radius. This functions as a nonmagical acid fog that lasts 1d4 rounds after the round it is emitted. The horror can spend a standard action to replenish the fumes before this time has elapsed. It can also use the fumes to fuel its ignition ability. Ignition (Su): The adamantine horror can cause its cloud of fumes to burst into flames. This ends the caustic fume cloud, but deals 15d6 fire damage to all besides the adamantine horror within the area. A reflex save (DC 29) halves the damage. The save DC is charisma based. Death Throws (Su): The round after it dies, the adamantine horror’s body begins making a soft, whirring sound (Listen DC 25). The sound grows gradually louder (the Listen DC decreases by 5 every round) for ten rounds, at which point the horror’s body explodes. The blast deals 20d6 damage (half normal, half sonic) to all within 100 feet, and ignores hardness (allowing it to collapse rooms and caverns). A reflex save (DC 27) halves the damage. The save DC is charisma based. Spell Like Abilities (Sp): At will-disintegrate (DC 26), scrying, sending 1/day-greater teleport, plane shift, implosion (DC 28). The save DC’s are charisma based. Hive Mind (Ex): All clockwork horrors within fifty miles of each other can communicate telepathically at will. If one clockwork horror sees something interesting or dangerous, all of the others instantly know it. If one clockwork horror within this area is not flat footed or flanked, none of them are. Furthermore, if more than one clockwork horror gang up on a single opponent, they gain a +1 synergy bonus to attack rolls for every two horrors assisting.
GoriceXII 08-25-07, 11:01 AM	First of all I love the general idea of them. I only wish I'd had access to this when I ran an adventure with clockwork creatures in it a couple of years ago. What I like best is that they make sense--you've more or less done stats for the different types in an army of clockwork. Sorry if I'm merely gushing but I know one of my players would want to hide under a blanket just hearing about these things. Inanimate strangely sentient objects are one of his nightmares. A few questions: 1. How do they reload? (the shurikens and darts for instance) I would suggest perhaps a reloader type horror for field operations. 2. What supports them? Beyond repairs and mining base metals I think your army needs a group of crafting horrors that produce more horrors. 3. We need a little more background since you've seriously advanced these monsters. (not a question but a comment, this)
Return of the Flumph 08-25-07, 10:23 PM	Thanks for the love about these yittle buggers. To answer your questions: 1. I imagine them having a hatch that opens to insert more ammo. Presumably, the lead horrors do this; perhaps I should give them an internal cavity where they store tons of ammo to supply to the soldiers. 2. Again, the lead horrors. I imagine them operating huge factories, with slag horrors bringing in ore to be smelted and crafted into more troops by the lead horrors. 3. I'm still trying to come up with better fluff for them (I had an idea where they maintain mining bases on the Plane of Earth, but that's about it). Any suggestions you have would be welcome.
Lyinginbedmon 08-26-07, 10:40 AM	Hmm...this seems to be going the way of the Sliver. I'm not complaining, I love this avenue of exploitation :D The Horrors are certainly my favourites from the MM2 and they inspired my Sovices (Their Hive Mind is directly lifted from the Horrors). It's good to see them getting some (unofficial) support. I'm going to need to fish out my MMI and examine the rebuilt horrors but at the moment they look good. Also "Combat: Kills people" :clap:
Return of the Flumph 08-27-07, 11:41 PM	No one has anything for me to correct?
GoriceXII 08-28-07, 02:55 AM	Waiting on the hatch thing and the reloader plan. It seems to me that maintenance is one weakness to be exploited (thank the gods).
Return of the Flumph 08-28-07, 03:11 AM	The slag horror is now capable of transporting and reloading ammo, and the lead horror's healing ability can be used much more often. Your gods have abandoned you.
GoriceXII 08-28-07, 04:18 AM	Damn. I can only say one thing: "Release the rust monsters!"
Lyinginbedmon 08-28-07, 06:25 AM	Damn. I can only say one thing: "Release the rust monsters!" That's a good point, they need something to counter the obvious use of rusting grasp
Return of the Flumph 08-28-07, 01:14 PM	Rust monsters... ... ... :banghead: CURSES! FOILED AGAIN!
Eldritch_Lord 08-28-07, 04:18 PM	Rust monsters... ... ... :banghead: CURSES! FOILED AGAIN! Not yet you aren't. If you can have a clockwork horror made of scrap metal, why not have a rusted version? You could do a "rust horror" template for the base metals, which would reduce their HP and AC but give them an at-will rusting grasp effect and the ability to get temp HP and boosted stats for every metal object they rust, and a "patina horror" template for the precious metals that would increase their AC, give them DR, and maybe some defensive spell-like abilities. Finally, give the adamantine horror immunity to rusting and an ability that lets it un-rust horrors or metal objects. This would give the horrors more fluff; I can see the horrors rusting entire cities' worth of metal, packing the flakes of rust inside the slag horrors, un-rusting them back in their lair, and producing new horrors with the new metal. Also, this would throw the PCs for a loop; the wizard would get a few horrors with his rusting grasp spell, look smug for a few seconds, then realize that what he did was just about as smart as casting harm on a lich. The DM can have lots of fun drawing out the moment and describing exactly how the rusted horrors are pulling themselves back together and fighting on.:devil: Hope that helps.
Lyinginbedmon 08-29-07, 06:23 AM	Not yet you aren't. If you can have a clockwork horror made of scrap metal, why not have a rusted version? You could do a "rust horror" template for the base metals, which would reduce their HP and AC but give them an at-will rusting grasp effect and the ability to get temp HP and boosted stats for every metal object they rust, and a "patina horror" template for the precious metals that would increase their AC, give them DR, and maybe some defensive spell-like abilities. Finally, give the adamantine horror immunity to rusting and an ability that lets it un-rust horrors or metal objects. This would give the horrors more fluff; I can see the horrors rusting entire cities' worth of metal, packing the flakes of rust inside the slag horrors, un-rusting them back in their lair, and producing new horrors with the new metal. Also, this would throw the PCs for a loop; the wizard would get a few horrors with his rusting grasp spell, look smug for a few seconds, then realize that what he did was just about as smart as casting harm on a lich. The DM can have lots of fun drawing out the moment and describing exactly how the rusted horrors are pulling themselves back together and fighting on.:devil: Hope that helps. Genius. Sheer genius. You took an undoubtable weakness and turned the solution from being immunity to something that contributes to the race as more than an immunity. Oh yeah, do this!
Return of the Flumph 08-29-07, 11:57 AM	Eldritch_Lord, I hereby pronounce you Clockwork Messiah. Doing it now. EDIT: Rust horrors added between iron and copper horrors (CR 3). They now have the ability to rust other clockwork horrors, so the hive can make more whenever it needs them. Gold horrors now have the ability to restore rusted metal, including rust horrors, to their original state. Gold, platinum, mithral, and adamantine horrors are now immune to rust.
Lyinginbedmon 08-29-07, 12:52 PM	Eldritch_Lord, I hereby pronounce you Clockwork Messiah. Does that mean he only works if he wind him up? :P EDIT: I've just noticed, the copper horrors have a "block box" that replays with either Light or Ghost Sound cast on it, but no clockwork horror as writ has either of those spells. How do they check the info?
Return of the Flumph 08-29-07, 01:15 PM	Copper horrors can play the contents at will. Perhaps I should specify that.
Lyinginbedmon 08-29-07, 04:12 PM	Adamantine horror is printed twice, neither of the copies explain what "omnistriking" means within the system
Return of the Flumph 08-29-07, 04:21 PM	Ah, sorry about that. "Omnistrike," in my campaigns, means that a weapon automatically overcomes any type of damage reduction. The lantern archon's light rays, for example, would be described as "omnistriking" at my gaming table. EDIT: explained the black box thing.
Lyinginbedmon 09-06-07, 03:29 PM	Adamantine Horror still needs the explanation of Omnistriking. Also, :bump:
GoriceXII 09-06-07, 04:04 PM	I love it. Still a chink, but not as big of one by far. It also emphasizes another aspect of the importance of the community to the horrors.
Baloth King 09-08-07, 04:54 PM	I could use these...
Dead_Weasel 09-17-07, 01:10 AM	I like clockwork horrors. They are cool looking, they are menacing, and their fluff is killer. Unfortunately, their stats in the MM2 are, well, boring. Each form of clockwork horror is the same as the one before it, except with a few more hit dice and spell like abilities. Additionally, the famously broken adamantine horror deters many people from ever using these creatures at all. I would like to point out that as the progenitor of the "race," as well as its overseer and the only source of the second-tier horrors, which are the only source of the third-tier horrors (so on and so forth), the destruction of the adamantine horror ensures the eventual demise of the "race." This puts in a role not unlike that of the dragons of the world, that of a creature which has to be a tough customer to croak, or else the victory is a little bit hollow. They travel from planet to planet stripping them apart, for Tyr's sake!
Return of the Flumph 09-17-07, 09:01 AM	I would like to point out that as the progenitor of the "race," as well as its overseer and the only source of the second-tier horrors, which are the only source of the third-tier horrors (so on and so forth), the destruction of the adamantine horror ensures the eventual demise of the "race." This puts in a role not unlike that of the dragons of the world, that of a creature which has to be a tough customer to croak, or else the victory is a little bit hollow. They travel from planet to planet stripping them apart, for Tyr's sake! Yes. That doesn't mean they should have inappropriate CR's.
AlanBruce 09-17-07, 01:09 PM	This Adamantine Horror is supposed to be unique, right? And he creates hundreds if not thousands of lesser horrors to serve and, in a way, worship him. I think the next step is quite logical: Give him a Divine Rank.
Return of the Flumph 09-17-07, 02:59 PM	This Adamantine Horror is supposed to be unique, right? And he creates hundreds if not thousands of lesser horrors to serve and, in a way, worship him. I think the next step is quite logical: Give him a Divine Rank. That certainly does have possibilities. I'll have to think about it, though; I don't want him to be THAT powerful. Perhaps godhood is his ultimate aspiration, and he's well and his way to meeting that goal. Definetely puts a greater sense of urgency into defeating him while he can still be defeated.
Lyinginbedmon 09-17-07, 03:07 PM	That certainly does have possibilities. I'll have to think about it, though; I don't want him to be THAT powerful. Perhaps godhood is his ultimate aspiration, and he's well and his way to meeting that goal. Definetely puts a greater sense of urgency into defeating him while he can still be defeated. If he's not that powerful, how do we explain his survival? This guy makes hordes of little critters with useful abilities, it would seem illogical for him to be regularly vulnerable and still be around. That's why most of the iconic characters in D&D stay unstatted, and the ones that aren't are made powerful.
Return of the Flumph 09-17-07, 05:02 PM	If he's not that powerful, how do we explain his survival? This guy makes hordes of little critters with useful abilities, it would seem illogical for him to be regularly vulnerable and still be around. Well, he does have hordes of little critters with useful abilities to defend him. :D Right now, he is a CR 15 monster. That makes him easily more than a match for your typical evil human warlord in a one and one battle, but his chances are 50/50 against the likes of an accomplished archmage or a trumpet archon. A balrog would easily pound him into shrapnel. What CR do you guys think would be most appropriate for the dictator and progenitor of the clockwork horrors?
Lyinginbedmon 09-17-07, 05:06 PM	20 minimum
Return of the Flumph 09-17-07, 05:17 PM	20 minimum Hmmm. I'll need to make a few more types of minions for him, then, or else broaden the CR gaps between the existing ones. Otherwise, there'd be no way to make him an appropriate boss for the clockwork horror hive.
AlanBruce 09-17-07, 05:40 PM	Hmmm. I'll need to make a few more types of minions for him, then, or else broaden the CR gaps between the existing ones. Otherwise, there'd be no way to make him an appropriate boss for the clockwork horror hive. I would add more HD to this creature while keeping it small. Expand his list of at will SLA, as suggested in MM2. And, if you want to even make him deadlier, give him Warlock levels, perhaps he "absorbed" his creators power and, in some bizzare magic/techno freak accident, acquired such obscure abilities. Perhaps use the Eldrith blast as a Supernatural Ability, just call it "Mega Beam" (think Mega Man's final bosses). Remember, this guy is unique. I wouldn't want him permanently dead. A few confrontations with him, the big mean bug teleports away. A few years later (Campaign time), this guy comes back with a new army bent on revenge on the PCs.
Wayback 09-18-07, 02:24 PM	To play into the whole mindset of the Adamantine Horror being nasty but not impossible thing to defeat you could give it some 'Its Baaaaaack' appeal. You could give it something on par with a Phylactery, a 'Power Core' or something that it makes a point of hiding away exceptionally well as its first goal after arriving on a new world. Should the Adamantine Horror ever fall it sends out pulses that start a reanimation process or nano-horrors to repair it. That or it could be some sort of backup device, switching all Horrors still active in the world to 'Retrieve and Repair the Boss' mode. Alternatively like bees, it could encode the instructions of how to 'ascend' to an Adamantine Horror into one of the 2nd tier progeny. On top of all this, it could track what manner of damage killed to Adamantine Horror and 'upgrade' it to be resistant to or more prepared for said kinds of attacks. The real tricky part for the PCs would be to find the Power Core and destroy it or risk an increasingly deadly Horror, not to mention an army of its servants that it could begin to upgrade to fight the PCs specifically. Not in huge jumps of "Your fire spells don’t affect it anymore" but the little Horrors having thicker armor or springy legs to hop away from fireballs.
Return of the Flumph 09-18-07, 02:39 PM	To play into the whole mindset of the Adamantine Horror being nasty but not impossible thing to defeat you could give it some 'Its Baaaaaack' appeal. You could give it something on par with a Phylactery, a 'Power Core' or something that it makes a point of hiding away exceptionally well as its first goal after arriving on a new world. Should the Adamantine Horror ever fall it sends out pulses that start a reanimation process or nano-horrors to repair it. That or it could be some sort of backup device, switching all Horrors still active in the world to 'Retrieve and Repair the Boss' mode. Alternatively like bees, it could encode the instructions of how to 'ascend' to an Adamantine Horror into one of the 2nd tier progeny. On top of all this, it could track what manner of damage killed to Adamantine Horror and 'upgrade' it to be resistant to or more prepared for said kinds of attacks. The real tricky part for the PCs would be to find the Power Core and destroy it or risk an increasingly deadly Horror, not to mention an army of its servants that it could begin to upgrade to fight the PCs specifically. Not in huge jumps of "Your fire spells don’t affect it anymore" but the little Horrors having thicker armor or springy legs to hop away from fireballs. Okay. THAT is cool. Here's a nasty idea. The true leader of the clockwork horrors is an incorporeal spirit...perhaps the ghost of the mage who invented them. If the adamantine horror gets destroyed, he goes back to the ethereal plane and instructs his minions to build a new body for him. This takes a long time, and there is a complicated spell the horrors need to cast to summon him back into his new body. To destroy it for good, the PC's will need a trap the soul or the like. Good?
Wayback 09-18-07, 03:11 PM	At least until some machine cult later gets it in their heads to find the gem with the mage's soul in it and put it into some new mechanical messiah they've created, heh.
Lyinginbedmon 09-18-07, 05:21 PM	Hmm...how about this: A while ago, I considered a mage using Magic Jar on a Warforged wearing the Circlet of Preservation, then killing the Warforged. The result was the mage's soul was inside the circlet, so could possess any Warforged body it was placed on or simply repair the one it was already on. Something similar: The original creator of the Clockwork Horrors was an absolute perfectionist transhumanist. He made this great and powerful race of constructs, but was himself still a pathetic weakling. So he builds the Adamantine Horror. Rather, he builds the shell of the horror. Inside he places an artifact to house his soul, allowing him to effectively possess the shell and control it as if it were his own body. So, when the Adamantine Horror is destroyed, the creator has a choice to make. He can stick around in this phylactery of sorts and potentially repair the shell himself, or he can flee to some secret region using spells, or he can entice a nearby construct to take the artifact for themselves, and possess them.
Return of the Flumph 09-18-07, 07:32 PM	Okay. Good addition there, Lyinginbed. How's this: The adamantine horror contains the phylactery of the mage who created the clockwork horrors. This looks like a single, razor-sharp gear with invisible runes all over it, One Ring style. The only way to destroy this artifact is by getting a chaotic good diety to shatter it. If the adamantine horror is destroyed, the clockwork horrors (and I mean every single one in existence) instantly become obsessed with recovering the gear. They are always aware of its location, regardless of what plane you hide it on or how many spells you cast over it. They will keep coming until they get it, trying via stealth at first, but resorting to an all out raid if that doesn't work. Once they get the cogwheel back, they build a new body for the boss.
Space_Dragon 03-04-08, 02:14 AM	nvm
jareddm 03-04-08, 11:39 AM	I know this thread was months ago, but I think it should be mentioned that in an old issue of Dragon, they did an ecology of the clockwork horrors and explained that 4 platinum horrors working together could reform an adamantine horror. I think it was a last resort sort of thing because it kills all four platinum horrors in the process, but it does keep the race going. Don't quote me on the specifics, I unfortunately do not have the issue in front of me.
Echoes of Deception 03-04-08, 01:23 PM	I would have to say no to the "spirit mage" avenue for this one. It's more than a little hokey, a smidgen convoluted and a tad weak. You want to know how the CR 15 adamantine horror survived so long? Intelligence 26 and a worldhorde of minions, that's how. PCs should have an intensely difficult time just finding the thing. Killing it, then, would be worse. It will almost certainly never go toe-to-toe with anything, always assuming that doing so would be its undoing, and thereby staying safe always. Also, you should never limit the clockwork horror community to "spider-like horrors only". The force of them obviously comes from that angle, but try imagining what kinds of weapons they would create, or buildings, or new spells, or psionics for that matter. Or planes hopping devices. Perhaps a machine that churns out new horrors from ore veins nearby? Or maybe create a few types of crystal horrors. Don't get too fancy; "mass produce" is this race's friend. Quartz, glass, sapphire, diamond... simple stones used in common, everyday talk. These could have intensely special uses, things the other horrors would be stumped at. Try a hand at machines that recycle destroyed horrors. You want the adamantine horror to come back if it were ever destroyed? It may have built a few of these machines on worlds where its grip is absolute, holding stores of adamantine in reserve for just such the occaision. Also, try creating a few epic clockwork horrors. Just because the adamantine horror isn't epic, doesn't mean it can't build one that is. These could serve as elite guard. The adamantine horror may actually wear one like armor or a home of sorts, further hiding it from being found out and protecting it from harm. And speaking of which, I think that these "horrors" if they really are horrific, would have designed advanced armor by now, which can be donned to give a single horror other advantages. A series of clockwork horror-only templates which can be taken up, one or two at a time, and later shed. Now, put together everything I just said, combine it with what was already posted, and try to tell me that kind of a threat wouldn't daunt your PCs. At least, the ones 30th level and below...
Japan_the_cougar 03-04-08, 06:04 PM	As great as these new horrors are (like the rest of Flumph's stuff), I personally like the MMII horrors more. I always saw the use of the horrors as some big WH40K ork rush thing, with thousands of lower-tier units swarming PCs and villages, weakening them for the kill by the higher-ranked constructs. If the PCs ever reach the adamantine horror, all their good spells would be done and used, with no way to regain since horrors will be constantly on their position to keep them from getting rest. So, once they reach the deceptively-low CR leader, they're not able to do much when they start getting blasted with disintegration and disjunction. Again, while the new horrors are good, they have too many SLAs to make them easy to use in a giant swarm fight. Having just one or two good ones rather than ten to fifteen utility ones makes it infinately easier and a bit less time-consuming. That said, I do like the slag horrors as a behind-the-scenes maitenence (sp) drone, but highly disapprove of the rust horrors. The reason clockwork horrors invade cities/planets is to collect more metal to propogate their kind. Having a unit that does exactly the opposite is counterintuitive to their progress and would be eliminated at the first possible moment. Of course, having a few immune to rust is a fun way to mess with players...
Eldritch_Lord 03-05-08, 10:29 PM	That said, I do like the slag horrors as a behind-the-scenes maitenence (sp) drone, but highly disapprove of the rust horrors. The reason clockwork horrors invade cities/planets is to collect more metal to propogate their kind. Having a unit that does exactly the opposite is counterintuitive to their progress and would be eliminated at the first possible moment. Of course, having a few immune to rust is a fun way to mess with players... However, the rust horror does 2 things: 1) It can grab and carry metal in a highly compact form, since the higher horrors can just un-rust it at home base; and 2) It helps propagate the "race" since the horrors don't all lose to rusting grasp.
vlsigma 03-06-08, 01:09 PM	However, the rust horror does 2 things: 1) It can grab and carry metal in a highly compact form, since the higher horrors can just un-rust it at home base; and 2) It helps propagate the "race" since the horrors don't all lose to rusting grasp. These things have to have a weakness of some sort. Rust makes sense, but like cougar said they don't all have to be weak against rusting grasp. Another idea would be to make rust horrors renagades or on the run from the others. Say that, like rust monsters, they can turn metal to rust on contact, which makes them an obvious threat to the hive. They go into hiding to prevent their destruction by the hive, and live to rust things to gain sustinense or power or just for fun.
Space_Dragon 03-06-08, 04:00 PM	These things have to have a weakness of some sort. orly?
Eldritch_Lord 03-06-08, 04:15 PM	These things have to have a weakness of some sort. Rust makes sense, but like cougar said they don't all have to be weak against rusting grasp. Another idea would be to make rust horrors renagades or on the run from the others. Say that, like rust monsters, they can turn metal to rust on contact, which makes them an obvious threat to the hive. They go into hiding to prevent their destruction by the hive, and live to rust things to gain sustinense or power or just for fun. Their weakness is that individually they're not very powerful. In great numbers, using attrition tactics, they're a threat; however, area spells and many attacks can take care of them just fine. Not everything has to have a glaring "I win!" weakness; rusting grasp is just as cheap on horrors by PCs as it is on PCs by rust monsters, and no one is saying PCs need that weakness.
Echoes of Deception 03-06-08, 04:43 PM	I hate to burst your bubble, but as a DM of 11 years experience, I am saying that PCs need the weakness to rust monsters. It makes them get more creative and ensures that they don't get too relaxed in their "power". And I believe that saying that rusting grasp is cheap on a creature whose flavor includes attacking en masse is wrong. It's just as cheap as using disintegrate on the undead. It's a fine "weakness", just like being subject to dehydration is a fine "weakness" for humanoids.
Eldritch_Lord 03-06-08, 09:30 PM	I hate to burst your bubble, but as a DM of 11 years experience, I am saying that PCs need the weakness to rust monsters. It makes them get more creative and ensures that they don't get too relaxed in their "power". Also speaking as a DM, if you need a rust monster to challenge your players, you're doing something wrong. If your players are getting complacent, sure, you can throw a rust monster at them; you could also play monsters creatively, use the environment, or otherwise liven things up. The rust monster isn't meant to be unleashed on the PCs because nothing else will hurt them, it's meant to present an interesting encounter. And I believe that saying that rusting grasp is cheap on a creature whose flavor includes attacking en masse is wrong. It's just as cheap as using disintegrate on the undead. It's a fine "weakness", just like being subject to dehydration is a fine "weakness" for humanoids. I wasn't saying rusting grasp, in and of itself, is cheap; I was saying that deliberately not providing for it as a weakness would be cheap. To use the example of disintegrate vs. undead: it is fine to use, by itself. However, if you take, say, an underpowered-as-written undead and beef it up but specifically decide not to give it some measure of protection against a no save, no SR spell, you are simply giving it a gaping hole in its defenses that makes fighting one boring if the PCs know about the weakness. The rusting grasp part was unrelated to the horde tactics part; I was saying that horrors don't need to keep their weakness to rusting because they already have a weakness (individual vulnerability vs. strength in numbers), not that the rust weakness is a result of that.
Echoes of Deception 03-06-08, 10:51 PM	Also speaking as a DM, if you need a rust monster to challenge your players, you're doing something wrong. If your players are getting complacent, sure, you can throw a rust monster at them; you could also play monsters creatively, use the environment, or otherwise liven things up. The rust monster isn't meant to be unleashed on the PCs because nothing else will hurt them, it's meant to present an interesting encounter. Oh, yes... because you can ask anyone who has seen my work; creativity is one of my more serious weak points, and a vivid or interactive world is completely alien to me. Surely, any or all of the twenty-some long-term players who've participated in my campaign will tell you that I'm doing something very wrong and that I've consistently failed to produce interesting and/or lively encounters for them, whether they were pitted in one of a gamut of types of battle; learning useful skills from experienced smiths, craftsmen and tradesmen; negotiating or bartering with merchants and suppliers; joining and participating in the work of mercenary, mages' or warriors' guilds; praying to or supplicating for blessings or gifts from the gods or their temples; becoming involved with the political affairs of the world's various villages, tribes, towns, cities, kingdoms or temples; delving into one of the great libraries to research knowledge to aid in accomplishing one of their current goals; or even just travelling overland in any the variety of ways necessary to reach some of the campaign's more fantastic locales - from walking, to sailing, to riding, to joining a caravan, to gliding, to flying, to cave crawling, or hiring a powerful mage for plane shifting or, in two cases, teleportation. Certainly, I'm doing something very wrong with such a drab, uninteresting hack 'n' slash world which serves no end but to mindlessly throw monsters at the players until they simply cannot be harmed by anything so I must resort to using a rust monster of all things to cut them back down to size whenever this problem repeatedly arises due to my own ineptitude. I'd also like to state that the above paragraph is meant to be spoken in a very dry, monotone and nearly emotionless voice to better deliver the unamused sarcasm so rampant therein. I don't post anything in fervor and very rarely do I post on impulse. And never in spasmous reaction to affrontery. I wasn't saying rusting grasp, in and of itself, is cheap; I was saying that deliberately not providing for it as a weakness would be cheap. To use the example of disintegrate vs. undead: it is fine to use, by itself. However, if you take, say, an underpowered-as-written undead and beef it up but specifically decide not to give it some measure of protection against a no save, no SR spell, you are simply giving it a gaping hole in its defenses that makes fighting one boring if the PCs know about the weakness.I agree. The rusting grasp part was unrelated to the horde tactics part; I was saying that horrors don't need to keep their weakness to rusting because they already have a weakness (individual vulnerability vs. strength in numbers), not that the rust weakness is a result of that.I disagree. I see no problem with any given creature having more than one weakness, even ones as glaring as these. I feel this way because, in this instance, clockwork horrors are supposed to be easy to defeat if you know the right tricks or encounter them relatively alone. I believe they should also be vulnerable to rust and similar effects because such a thing is normally anathema to metallic creatures. I am not saying that the rust horror is an absolutely bad idea. But I am saying that if it were to be in the first place, I don't think it should be accepted as a part of the clockwork horror hive. It should be an abomination, sought to be destroyed by the hive whenever it appears. It may be okay, if it were trading off one weakness for another... immunity to rust effects in exchange for not having the strength of numbers that members of the normal hive have to back them up... that might be alright. Maybe, but I'm not so sure.
Space_Dragon 03-06-08, 11:01 PM	tl;dr Kay. clockwork horrors are supposed to be easy to defeat if you know the right tricks Says who? or encounter them relatively alone. Aside from the upper-echelon horrors, they are weak when encountered alone. What are you complaining about with this? I believe they should also be vulnerable to rust and similar effects because such a thing is normally anathema to metallic creatures. Clockwork horrors ain't normal. I am not saying that the rust horror is an absolutely bad idea. But I am saying that if it were to be in the first place, I don't think it should be accepted as a part of the clockwork horror hive. It should be an abomination, sought to be destroyed by the hive whenever it appears. It may be okay, if it were trading off one weakness for another... immunity to rust effects in exchange for not having the strength of numbers that members of the normal hive have to back them up... that might be alright. Maybe, but I'm not so sure. Uh-huh. Tell me, if I made a bunch of creatures with the same general stats as these horrors, but made them Magical Beasts instead of Constructs, would you still be complaining about their lack of an Achilles Heel?
Echoes of Deception 03-06-08, 11:39 PM	Says who?The norm. Most of the things in the game are easy to defeat if you know the right tricks. There are very few exceptions to the rule. Since clockwork horrors are normal, they aren't an exception. Aside from the upper-echelon horrors, they are weak when encountered alone. What are you complaining about with this?I'm not "complaining" about anything, here. I don't see why you think I would be. Clockwork horrors ain't normal.I disagree, and will continue to disagree. Unless, of course, you'd like to posit some evidence or even just opine on why they aren't... Uh-huh. Tell me, if I made a bunch of creatures with the same general stats as these horrors, but made them Magical Beasts instead of Constructs, would you still be complaining about their lack of an Achilles Heel?Assuming the flavor of your creation caught my attention long enough for me to consider responding... Yes, obviously.
Eldritch_Lord 03-07-08, 04:59 PM	Oh, yes... because you can ask anyone who has seen my work; creativity is one of my more serious weak points, and a vivid or interactive world is completely alien to me. Surely, any or all of the twenty-some long-term players who've participated in my campaign will tell you that I'm doing something very wrong and that I've consistently failed to produce interesting and/or lively encounters for them, whether they were pitted in one of a gamut of types of battle; learning useful skills from experienced smiths, craftsmen and tradesmen; negotiating or bartering with merchants and suppliers; joining and participating in the work of mercenary, mages' or warriors' guilds; praying to or supplicating for blessings or gifts from the gods or their temples; becoming involved with the political affairs of the world's various villages, tribes, towns, cities, kingdoms or temples; delving into one of the great libraries to research knowledge to aid in accomplishing one of their current goals; or even just travelling overland in any the variety of ways necessary to reach some of the campaign's more fantastic locales - from walking, to sailing, to riding, to joining a caravan, to gliding, to flying, to cave crawling, or hiring a powerful mage for plane shifting or, in two cases, teleportation. Certainly, I'm doing something very wrong with such a drab, uninteresting hack 'n' slash world which serves no end but to mindlessly throw monsters at the players until they simply cannot be harmed by anything so I must resort to using a rust monster of all things to cut them back down to size whenever this problem repeatedly arises due to my own ineptitude. I'd also like to state that the above paragraph is meant to be spoken in a very dry, monotone and nearly emotionless voice to better deliver the unamused sarcasm so rampant therein. I don't post anything in fervor and very rarely do I post on impulse. And never in spasmous reaction to affrontery. Well I'm sorry if you felt affronted, but in the post I responded to: You said you "hate to burst [my] bubble", implying you think that your point of view is more valid than mine; You pulled out the "I've DMed for X years" card, which so far as I have seen is only done to impress people with your argument; You said that "PCs need the weakness to rust monsters", when (A) the 1e rust monster was made to challenge parties nothing else could and (B) PCs shouldn't need a particular weakness for you to exploit, you should be able to do that without special help; You said "It makes them get more creative", implying that without the rust monster they aren't creative (which shouldn't matter to you, because remarking on your players' creativity has nothing to do with your own creativity); You said it "ensures that they don't get too relaxed in their 'power'", which to me says that players in your campaigns do get relaxed in their power, which would mean you aren't challenging them enough. Taken together, what other conclusion should I have drawn? Perhaps that's not the intent you had, but that's what came across. And, before writing your long-winded rant, you might have noticed I said play monsters creatively, as in "have them do things they don't normally do"; in my post do you see me criticize your RP skills, worldbuilding, plotlines, ingenuity, or creativity in other areas? I didn't think so I disagree. I see no problem with any given creature having more than one weakness, even ones as glaring as these. I feel this way because, in this instance, clockwork horrors are supposed to be easy to defeat if you know the right tricks or encounter them relatively alone. I believe they should also be vulnerable to rust and similar effects because such a thing is normally anathema to metallic creatures. But that's the thing--if you catch them alone, they're already easy to beat. Their major (and sometimes only) strength is their numbers. Leaving a weakness just for the purpose of leaving a weakness has no effect on their difficulty encountered alone, when they're already pushovers, and makes what should be a fun, tactical, demanding encounter with many of them turns into "Okay, how many rusting grasps can I prepare today?" And so what if rust is anathema to metal creatures? They're magic metal spiders! It's okay for them not to have a normal vulnerability; making them change into a rust horror rather than die is more interesting and exciting anyway. It's just like launching a fireball at a creature you don't know is immune to fire, or trying to slay living something immune to death attacks--is it more memorable to one-hit kill a monster with finger of death or have it shrug it off and come after you again? I am not saying that the rust horror is an absolutely bad idea. But I am saying that if it were to be in the first place, I don't think it should be accepted as a part of the clockwork horror hive. It should be an abomination, sought to be destroyed by the hive whenever it appears. It may be okay, if it were trading off one weakness for another... immunity to rust effects in exchange for not having the strength of numbers that members of the normal hive have to back them up... that might be alright. Maybe, but I'm not so sure. Well, they wouldn't be considered abominations, since the higher horrors can turn them back to metal whenever they want; they serve a useful purpose, gaining metals in ways no other horror can; and it's much better to be able to simply unrust a horror than to have to build another from scratch.
Echoes of Deception 03-08-08, 12:16 AM	Well I'm sorry if you felt affronted, but in the post I responded to: You said you "hate to burst [my] bubble", implying you think that your point of view is more valid than mine; You pulled out the "I've DMed for X years" card, which so far as I have seen is only done to impress people with your argument; You said that "PCs need the weakness to rust monsters", when (A) the 1e rust monster was made to challenge parties nothing else could and (B) PCs shouldn't need a particular weakness for you to exploit, you should be able to do that without special help; You said "It makes them get more creative", implying that without the rust monster they aren't creative (which shouldn't matter to you, because remarking on your players' creativity has nothing to do with your own creativity); You said it "ensures that they don't get too relaxed in their 'power'", which to me says that players in your campaigns do get relaxed in their power, which would mean you aren't challenging them enough. I was not implying that my point of view was more valid than yours, I was pointedly disagreeing with your assessment that no one was saying that PCs need a weakness to rust monsters. I was saying just that. Of course I was trying to impress you. But apparently not in the same way you took it. I've had eleven years of experience with experimentation with what players. I think that should count for something when I opine on a subject about what players do or do not need. I was not, however, trying to shock and awe you or anyone else at how long I've been at this. (A) Whatever happened to this?The rust monster isn't meant to be unleashed on the PCs because nothing else will hurt them, it's meant to present an interesting encounter. (B) Having metal equipment that can be hit by a rust monster's ability is not a special weakness. It's one the inherent weaknesses of using metal equipment. But I do agree, PCs should not need a special list of particular weaknesses just so that DMs can exploit them. No. "More" doesn't mean that without the "more" part, alternatives do not exist. I don't know where you could get that idea. Instead, I implied that happening across the rare rust monster, which is usually an unexpected occurance, players are normally forced to think on their feet or suffer unpleasant consequences. On your paranthetic comment, I believe that a strong and vivid gaming environment should influence the thoughts of players in a like manner. Therefore, a more creative roleplaying environment should cause players to become more creative, themselves. So, if the players cannot improve creativity, it must mean that the DM is not performing at par. I put power in quotations for a reason. Power is extremely relative, usually depending on both the level of the characters and the luck of the players. Also, if you think complacency always means that players aren't being challenged enough, I would recommend you attempt to build a full-world environment as an exercise. In my personal experience, I have found that even for a fantasy realm, it seems excessively unrealistic when the world around players levels up with them. Therefore, my campaign world allows them to level steadily, but also makes them seek out higher level environs and situations as they progress. In the mean time of their more challenging adventures, they will invariably encounter proof that they have been advancing in terms of relative power. Depending on players' or characters' attitudes, outlooks or patience, this can cause them to become complacent before they reach another adventure with a level comparable to theirs. Encountering a rust monster, or similar creature, can break this path to complacency, and keep the players on their toes in the future. But, if you think this means that I'm not providing enough challenge for my players, I suppose you're entitled to your opinion. Taken together, what other conclusion should I have drawn? I think I just covered this, but if you need clarification, just let me know. in my post do you see me criticize your RP skills, worldbuilding, plotlines, ingenuity, or creativity in other areas? I didn't think so Not directly, no. But telling me that I'm doing something wrong if I need a rust monster to challenge my players, and then explaining to me that based on my statements you believe I'm not challenging my players enough, it would certainly seem that you are. Especially if you include the suggestion to try playing monsters creatively, use the environment or try to liven up "things" in any other way, it would seem that you are criticizing those things. But that's the thing--if you catch them alone, they're already easy to beat. Their major (and sometimes only) strength is their numbers. Leaving a weakness just for the purpose of leaving a weakness has no effect on their difficulty encountered alone, when they're already pushovers, and makes what should be a fun, tactical, demanding encounter with many of them turns into "Okay, how many rusting grasps can I prepare today?" And so what if rust is anathema to metal creatures? They're magic metal spiders! It's okay for them not to have a normal vulnerability; making them change into a rust horror rather than die is more interesting and exciting anyway. It's just like launching a fireball at a creature you don't know is immune to fire, or trying to slay living something immune to death attacks--is it more memorable to one-hit kill a monster with finger of death or have it shrug it off and come after you again?Leaving rusting as a weakness gives players a way to succeed after spending time figuring out a way to succeed without going through the trials of a demanding, tactical combat. Not everyone avidly enjoys that kind of thing. Rusting grasp is a mid to high level druid spell, anyway. If your party has a druid, and s/he can prepare enough of them to make himself a serious threat to clockwork horrors at the cost of having strength in other ways, why should you want to rob them of that? According to one of my players who has seen this thread, it's borderline deus ex machina, and I've never met a player who likes that. Well, they wouldn't be considered abominations, since the higher horrors can turn them back to metal whenever they want; they serve a useful purpose, gaining metals in ways no other horror can; and it's much better to be able to simply unrust a horror than to have to build another from scratch.If they wouldn't be considering racial heretics by the hive, I disagree with their existence. I do not believe that clockwork horrors should have the ability to be immune to rust, especially be means of a creature that can undo the damage done by players who actually have a druid that can do the damage in the first place. The horrors themselves should have to just cut their losses and move on in the normal hive manner.
Space_Dragon 03-08-08, 12:43 AM	I'm gradually converting all these horrors to hybrid 3e/4e rules in another thread. I've been watching this discussion, and have taken some things into account. The updated clockwork horrors will be much more focused on teamwork and hive-like behavior, mechanically as well as fluffwise. The rust horrors are staying in (as a template now), but rust can STILL be a weakness for the horrors. Rather than rusting your weapons instantly, rust horrors have to hit your items multiple times (much like a sunder attempt), making them less dangerous. Also, when you turn it into a rust horror, the base horror loses all its other special abilities. In some cases, casting RG on a particularly deadly spellcasting horror can be a good idea. Additionally, all clockwork horrors are now much more individually vulnerable. Divide and conquer is to be a critical weak point for the horrors; force them to fight individually instead of cooperatively, and you won't need rusting spells to take them down with ease.
Eldritch_Lord 03-08-08, 12:34 PM	Not directly, no. But telling me that I'm doing something wrong if I need a rust monster to challenge my players, and then explaining to me that based on my statements you believe I'm not challenging my players enough, it would certainly seem that you are. Especially if you include the suggestion to try playing monsters creatively, use the environment or try to liven up "things" in any other way, it would seem that you are criticizing those things. It looks like this whole thing has resulted from lack of tone. I thought your post was stating that you needed to rely on rust monsters rather than using them as an alternative, and you took my follow-up post to be more critical than I meant it to be. I'm willing to drop it if you are. Leaving rusting as a weakness gives players a way to succeed after spending time figuring out a way to succeed without going through the trials of a demanding, tactical combat. Not everyone avidly enjoys that kind of thing. Mmm, I guess. I just don't think you should be able to turn a tactical combat into an easy one with a single ability. Fire resistance against a red dragon is expected and necessary; rust against horrors (a no save, no SR ability) will just one-shot the weaker ones. Rusting grasp is a mid to high level druid spell, anyway. If your party has a druid, and s/he can prepare enough of them to make himself a serious threat to clockwork horrors at the cost of having strength in other ways, why should you want to rob them of that? According to one of my players who has seen this thread, it's borderline deus ex machina, and I've never met a player who likes that. Rusting grasp is effective against any metal creature. Positive energy is effective against any undead. If you can have undead with turn resistance you should be able to have constructs with resistance or immunity to rust. The thing is, rusting grasp is an aberration among spells. It's a no save, no SR guaranteed damage spell against metal creatures. Shatter has a save and SR when used against crystalline creatures. Sunbeam and sunburst have a save and SR when used against plants or undead. Disrupt undead has SR. Maybe my problem is with rusting grasp more than horrors, but no other group of monsters has such blanket, automatic vulnerability to a single ability. A caster can prepare all shatters and not auto-win against crystalling creatures; a caster can prepare all sunbeams and not auto-win against undead; a caster can prepare all rusting grasps and is practically guaranteed to kill every metal creature given enough time. If they wouldn't be considering racial heretics by the hive, I disagree with their existence. I do not believe that clockwork horrors should have the ability to be immune to rust, especially be means of a creature that can undo the damage done by players who actually have a druid that can do the damage in the first place. The horrors themselves should have to just cut their losses and move on in the normal hive manner. If resurrected characters wouldn't be considering heretics by the party, I disagree with their existence. I do not believe that high-level PCs should have the ability to ignore death, especially be means of a cleric that can undo the damage done by monsters who actually have a BBEG that can do the damage in the first place. The party members themselves should have to just cut their losses and move on in the normal PC manner. If players can bring party members back, why not monsters?
Echoes of Deception 03-08-08, 10:32 PM	Yes, I'm perfectly willing to drop the subject. Let's get back to the matter at hand. A single weapon or soldier is often all it takes to turn the tide of battle, so I see no reason that a single spell shouldn't be able to do the same. However, given your reasoning, I agree with you that ferrous creatures should have the ability to pick up a resistance to rusting effects. Certain other ferrous creatures, but not these horrors, ought to have an immunity to it, as well. I agree whole-heartedy, here. But, I do not think that ferrous clockwork horrors should have that immunity. For rusting resistance, I think that a monstrous feat may be in order. What do you think? Its effect could stack... On the topic of ressurecting monsters... I don't think that it's quite the same thing. Normal PC behaviour is difficult to pin down, but for good-aligned characters or loyal characters, it seems usual that they would attempt to seek out magic to return their companions to life. People tend to miss people that way. But never have I even heard of members of a hive so much as twitch when one of their own falls, or return for their corpses after a battle is over, to give them good burials or seek divine aid. Thematically, or with plotline, it could be appropriate for some monsters to return to life, others... not so much.
Eldritch_Lord 03-09-08, 01:39 PM	A single weapon or soldier is often all it takes to turn the tide of battle, so I see no reason that a single spell shouldn't be able to do the same. However, given your reasoning, I agree with you that ferrous creatures should have the ability to pick up a resistance to rusting effects. Certain other ferrous creatures, but not these horrors, ought to have an immunity to it, as well. I agree whole-heartedy, here. But, I do not think that ferrous clockwork horrors should have that immunity. Might I ask why you agree that ferrous creatures in general should be able to develop resistance, but not horrors in particular? Putting aside rust horrors, and only considering rusting grasp? For rusting resistance, I think that a monstrous feat may be in order. What do you think? Its effect could stack... That might be an acceptable solution. Something along the lines of a delayed effect, or less damage, or DR X against rust...hmm. Have to think on that. On the topic of ressurecting monsters... I don't think that it's quite the same thing. Normal PC behaviour is difficult to pin down, but for good-aligned characters or loyal characters, it seems usual that they would attempt to seek out magic to return their companions to life. People tend to miss people that way. But never have I even heard of members of a hive so much as twitch when one of their own falls, or return for their corpses after a battle is over, to give them good burials or seek divine aid. Thematically, or with plotline, it could be appropriate for some monsters to return to life, others... not so much. Well, I would normally agree, but (A) the rust horrors can be easily brought back--any gold horror can go "POOF! Unrust!" whereas resurrecting a wasp wouldn't work--and (B) they provide talents the other horrors wouldn't have, namely easy transportation of materials and effective co-opting of other creatures' metal. And technically they aren't returning to life; they'd be transformed into rust, so it is more like a polymorph effect than anything else.
DarthCestual 03-09-08, 01:43 PM	I really dig what you've got here Flumph. Something I didn't see mentioned, I may have missed it, is that clockwork horrors could have originated on Mechanus, perhaps they were driven from that realm by the modrons. Originally the horrors were simply vermin of Mechanus, driven from their home plane they have since evolved and have a desire to return there and overthrow the modrons and have their revenge. Just a thought. :cool:
Lyinginbedmon 03-09-08, 02:17 PM	They actually did originate on Mechanus, according to their original entry in Monster Manual II