Close-up look at the Strige? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Close-up look at the Strige? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ra-Tiel
12-21-04, 12:47 PM Hi.
Sorry if this has been discussed elswhere, but I haven't found anything regarding my question with search.

Has anybody taken a look at the 3.5 stirge? Our group (4 players: lizardfolk fighter 2, elven ranger 6, human rogue 6 (nsc), fey-ri wizard 3, drow favored soul 3) is playing "the World's Largest Dungeon" and we encounter these little bastards more often than is good for us (that means: 6+ in one room).

They have a +7 bonus to attack, that's ok, but the description says that it was a touch attack!?

And they deal 1d4 points of Con damage (max 4pts), without any hp damage.

That means, that a lvl 20 fighter inside his +5 adamantine full-plate can be Con-damaged to death with touch attacks from 1 or 2 dozen CR 1/2 creatures, because DR doesn't negate special attacks like ability damage, right?! :uh-huh:

That all for a mere CR 1/2? Sounds more like CR 1, or even 2 or 3.

Do I get something wrong, or are stirges just overwhelmingly powerfull for their CR??
Morwen
12-21-04, 01:36 PM Well, the average Stirge has 5 hit points (from 1 to 10), and has an AC of 16. So, any 6th level fighter-type PC should be able to take one down with one strike. Getting close enough to make a touch attack should also provoke AoOs, so the con-loss your party would take should be minimal even with 6-7 of them at once.
JonahBlack
12-21-04, 02:03 PM Yeah, my 8th level cleric ran into a bunch of these nasty buggers. Fortunately, he's got the sun domain, and just cast 'Fire Shield'. That sorta took the wind out of their sails.
RPGDudeNYC
12-21-04, 05:38 PM At the risk of looking like a fool...

I'm a bit confused about Stirges. I recently used them in my campaign and found them to be incredibly underpowered. I suspect it's due to a gross misinterpretation of the description on my part. Here are three things in the description of the Stirge in the SRD:

Attack: Touch +7 melee (attach)

Base Attack/Grapple: +1/–11 (+1 when attached)

Attach (Ex): If a stirge hits with a touch attack, it uses its eight pincers to latch onto the opponent’s body. An attached stirge is effectively grappling its prey. The stirge loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of 12, but holds on with great tenacity. Stirges have a +12 racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above).
So, here's how I played it out.

• First, the stirge attacks with a +7 touch attack and hits.
• Second, the stirge attempts a grapple. With a -11 grapple, it fails nearly every time.
• Third, because it never succeeds at the grapple check, it never starts a turn attached to the victim. So...the stirge is unable to use Blood Drain.

I realized quickly, though too late, that my interpretation of the description of the Attach ability had to be completely wrong. I assumed that once the stirge hit the victim it then had to make a grapple attempt to become attached.

Could it be that stirges don't have to actually make a grapple attempt? If they hit with the touch attack are they automatically grappling? Does the victim not get an opposed grapple roll?
RPGDudeNYC
12-21-04, 05:49 PM :banghead: OMG! Now I realize my mistake. It's amazing how writing something out actually makes you see it more clearly. Tell me if this is how I should have done it:

• First, the stirge attacks with a +7 touch attack and hits, automatically becoming Attached.
• Second, the stirge makes a grapple attempt at +1, because it's attached.
• Third, the victim makes an opposed grapple roll.
• Fourth, if the stirge loses the grapple it becomes unattached. If it wins, it will start the next turn attached (unless another character kills it or something) and uses its Blood Drain abililty.
devinmdp
12-21-04, 05:51 PM Yes you were wrong. The stirge is "effectively grappling" when it hits. The grapple check would only be used later if the victim wanted to break the hold.

Also, stirges are only ridiculously overpowered in very limited circumstances. 1st level spells like Burning Hands or Colour Spray can take down hordes of them. Even if they are attached. If I were in a mid level group being harrangued by stirges, I might drop a 4D4 Burning Hands spell right on top of my party. And likely they'd thank me for it.

With 5 hp, the stirges will die on average even if they save. Yes, the PCs will take 5 to 10 hp of damage, but that, unlike CON damage, can be easily healed.

No....sorry.....stirges are only overpowered if you are a bunch of fighters without cleave or great cleave and without Combat Reflexes.

6 stirges on a 10th level fighter with no Combat Reflexes and no Cleave could take him down. Especially if they win initiative.

But otherwise, there are so many low level spells that can pound them en masse (Sound Burst anyone?) that its not even funny.

Devin
Ra-Tiel
12-22-04, 05:13 AM Thank you for your input.

I think we (our group and our DM) got the stirge's attack just wrong. The way we played, it is like this: stirge hits => Blood Drain the same round and eventually opposed grapple to get rid of it. Or is it indeed this way? I would be thankful if you could clarify the attack routine of the stirges to me :rolleyes:

I asked my question first because we all but our rogue and our ranger have loosy spot and listen modifiers, and so most members of our group are usually surprised (therefore, no attacks of opp, because nobody does have Combat Reflexes) and with my character having a touch AC of 12 and a Con of 14 you can imagine how I look like when we get out of a fight with a handful stirges. I gets even worse, when you consider that I'm the party's main healer, and in "WLD" your are just plain dead without a healer type character (cleric, healer, or in my case favored soul).

And I am still just confused about that touch attack thing. Does that mean that a little strige does not need to find a weak spot in your armor to damage you?! :confused: It just sits on your half-plate and punches right through?!? I also compared them to v3.0 and found a quite huge difference: in v3.0 they did 1d3-5 + 1d4 Con damage - that means they did hp damage and then the Con damage. And if I remember my old player's handbook correctly, all special damage forms accompanying an attack were negated if the attack didn't do hp damage to you (like poison from a giant spider's bite: no bite damage, no poison injected). That was removed in v3.5 and I wonder: why? That fighers/paladins/rangers/any characters in adamantine armor can no longer be harmed by CR 1/2 creatures? What was the price of Adamant again? :thinks: (beware: sarcasm!)
Morwen
12-22-04, 06:23 AM Thank you for your input.

I think we (our group and our DM) got the stirge's attack just wrong. The way we played, it is like this: stirge hits => Blood Drain the same round and eventually opposed grapple to get rid of it. Or is it indeed this way? I would be thankful if you could clarify the attack routine of the stirges to me :rolleyes:

It will attack one turn, and become attached if it hits. Then, the next turn, if it is still attached, it will use the Blood Drain ability.
RPGDudeNYC
12-22-04, 09:59 AM OK, so here's another try at the attack routine.

1. The stirge attacks. If it hits, it automatically becomes Attached and is grappling.
2. If the stirge is Attached, the victim can attempt to break free of the grapple. At this point, both the victim and the stirge get grapple rolls.
3. Depending on the results of the grapple struggle, the following happens.• If the stirge wins the grapple it stays attached.
• If the victim wins the grapple the stirge is unattached.4. At the stirge's next turn, if it is still attached it uses its Blood Drain abililty.
devinmdp
12-22-04, 01:25 PM The reason stirges need a touch attack is that they are very small and very adept at finding the holes and seams in armour, and their can insert their needle like noses through mail armour with ease. This makes sense. It's the same reason swarms get to cause damage without making an attack roll at all. Stirges are kind of part way between swarms and normal creatures.

Devin

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ra-Tiel 12-21-04, 12:47 PM	Hi. Sorry if this has been discussed elswhere, but I haven't found anything regarding my question with search. Has anybody taken a look at the 3.5 stirge? Our group (4 players: lizardfolk fighter 2, elven ranger 6, human rogue 6 (nsc), fey-ri wizard 3, drow favored soul 3) is playing "the World's Largest Dungeon" and we encounter these little bastards more often than is good for us (that means: 6+ in one room). They have a +7 bonus to attack, that's ok, but the description says that it was a touch attack!? And they deal 1d4 points of Con damage (max 4pts), without any hp damage. That means, that a lvl 20 fighter inside his +5 adamantine full-plate can be Con-damaged to death with touch attacks from 1 or 2 dozen CR 1/2 creatures, because DR doesn't negate special attacks like ability damage, right?! :uh-huh: That all for a mere CR 1/2? Sounds more like CR 1, or even 2 or 3. Do I get something wrong, or are stirges just overwhelmingly powerfull for their CR??
Morwen 12-21-04, 01:36 PM	Well, the average Stirge has 5 hit points (from 1 to 10), and has an AC of 16. So, any 6th level fighter-type PC should be able to take one down with one strike. Getting close enough to make a touch attack should also provoke AoOs, so the con-loss your party would take should be minimal even with 6-7 of them at once.
JonahBlack 12-21-04, 02:03 PM	Yeah, my 8th level cleric ran into a bunch of these nasty buggers. Fortunately, he's got the sun domain, and just cast 'Fire Shield'. That sorta took the wind out of their sails.
RPGDudeNYC 12-21-04, 05:38 PM	At the risk of looking like a fool... I'm a bit confused about Stirges. I recently used them in my campaign and found them to be incredibly underpowered. I suspect it's due to a gross misinterpretation of the description on my part. Here are three things in the description of the Stirge in the SRD: Attack: Touch +7 melee (attach) Base Attack/Grapple: +1/–11 (+1 when attached) Attach (Ex): If a stirge hits with a touch attack, it uses its eight pincers to latch onto the opponent’s body. An attached stirge is effectively grappling its prey. The stirge loses its Dexterity bonus to AC and has an AC of 12, but holds on with great tenacity. Stirges have a +12 racial bonus on grapple checks (already figured into the Base Attack/Grapple entry above). So, here's how I played it out. • First, the stirge attacks with a +7 touch attack and hits. • Second, the stirge attempts a grapple. With a -11 grapple, it fails nearly every time. • Third, because it never succeeds at the grapple check, it never starts a turn attached to the victim. So...the stirge is unable to use Blood Drain. I realized quickly, though too late, that my interpretation of the description of the Attach ability had to be completely wrong. I assumed that once the stirge hit the victim it then had to make a grapple attempt to become attached. Could it be that stirges don't have to actually make a grapple attempt? If they hit with the touch attack are they automatically grappling? Does the victim not get an opposed grapple roll?
RPGDudeNYC 12-21-04, 05:49 PM	:banghead: OMG! Now I realize my mistake. It's amazing how writing something out actually makes you see it more clearly. Tell me if this is how I should have done it: • First, the stirge attacks with a +7 touch attack and hits, automatically becoming Attached. • Second, the stirge makes a grapple attempt at +1, because it's attached. • Third, the victim makes an opposed grapple roll. • Fourth, if the stirge loses the grapple it becomes unattached. If it wins, it will start the next turn attached (unless another character kills it or something) and uses its Blood Drain abililty.
devinmdp 12-21-04, 05:51 PM	Yes you were wrong. The stirge is "effectively grappling" when it hits. The grapple check would only be used later if the victim wanted to break the hold. Also, stirges are only ridiculously overpowered in very limited circumstances. 1st level spells like Burning Hands or Colour Spray can take down hordes of them. Even if they are attached. If I were in a mid level group being harrangued by stirges, I might drop a 4D4 Burning Hands spell right on top of my party. And likely they'd thank me for it. With 5 hp, the stirges will die on average even if they save. Yes, the PCs will take 5 to 10 hp of damage, but that, unlike CON damage, can be easily healed. No....sorry.....stirges are only overpowered if you are a bunch of fighters without cleave or great cleave and without Combat Reflexes. 6 stirges on a 10th level fighter with no Combat Reflexes and no Cleave could take him down. Especially if they win initiative. But otherwise, there are so many low level spells that can pound them en masse (Sound Burst anyone?) that its not even funny. Devin
Ra-Tiel 12-22-04, 05:13 AM	Thank you for your input. I think we (our group and our DM) got the stirge's attack just wrong. The way we played, it is like this: stirge hits => Blood Drain the same round and eventually opposed grapple to get rid of it. Or is it indeed this way? I would be thankful if you could clarify the attack routine of the stirges to me :rolleyes: I asked my question first because we all but our rogue and our ranger have loosy spot and listen modifiers, and so most members of our group are usually surprised (therefore, no attacks of opp, because nobody does have Combat Reflexes) and with my character having a touch AC of 12 and a Con of 14 you can imagine how I look like when we get out of a fight with a handful stirges. I gets even worse, when you consider that I'm the party's main healer, and in "WLD" your are just plain dead without a healer type character (cleric, healer, or in my case favored soul). And I am still just confused about that touch attack thing. Does that mean that a little strige does not need to find a weak spot in your armor to damage you?! :confused: It just sits on your half-plate and punches right through?!? I also compared them to v3.0 and found a quite huge difference: in v3.0 they did 1d3-5 + 1d4 Con damage - that means they did hp damage and then the Con damage. And if I remember my old player's handbook correctly, all special damage forms accompanying an attack were negated if the attack didn't do hp damage to you (like poison from a giant spider's bite: no bite damage, no poison injected). That was removed in v3.5 and I wonder: why? That fighers/paladins/rangers/any characters in adamantine armor can no longer be harmed by CR 1/2 creatures? What was the price of Adamant again? :thinks: (beware: sarcasm!)
Morwen 12-22-04, 06:23 AM	Thank you for your input. I think we (our group and our DM) got the stirge's attack just wrong. The way we played, it is like this: stirge hits => Blood Drain the same round and eventually opposed grapple to get rid of it. Or is it indeed this way? I would be thankful if you could clarify the attack routine of the stirges to me :rolleyes: It will attack one turn, and become attached if it hits. Then, the next turn, if it is still attached, it will use the Blood Drain ability.
RPGDudeNYC 12-22-04, 09:59 AM	OK, so here's another try at the attack routine. 1. The stirge attacks. If it hits, it automatically becomes Attached and is grappling. 2. If the stirge is Attached, the victim can attempt to break free of the grapple. At this point, both the victim and the stirge get grapple rolls. 3. Depending on the results of the grapple struggle, the following happens.• If the stirge wins the grapple it stays attached. • If the victim wins the grapple the stirge is unattached.4. At the stirge's next turn, if it is still attached it uses its Blood Drain abililty.
devinmdp 12-22-04, 01:25 PM	The reason stirges need a touch attack is that they are very small and very adept at finding the holes and seams in armour, and their can insert their needle like noses through mail armour with ease. This makes sense. It's the same reason swarms get to cause damage without making an attack roll at all. Stirges are kind of part way between swarms and normal creatures. Devin