Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raziel1845 02-21-06, 06:32 PM	Quoting the DMG with the definition of cold immunity. "A creature with cold immunity, such as a frost giant, never takes cold damage. It has vulnerability to fire, which means it takes half again as much (+50%) damage as normal from fire, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed, or if the save is a success or failure." Now I was wondering whether or not another monster like a Skeleton, which also lists cold immunity in it's description, would have fire vulnerability even though it doesn't list it in the stat block. I believe that only creautres with the cold subtype, like the frost giant, should be vulnerable to fire, and that the "it" in the description is referring to the frost giant in particular, and not all creauters with cold immunity. However my DM disagress and believes that the "it" refers to all creatures with cold immunity, despite the lack of listing of fire vulnerability under all the creautes that have cold immunity but aren't cold subtypes. So, who is right?
The Vorpal Tribble 02-21-06, 06:36 PM	Skeletons are merely immune to cold because there is nothing really to freeze and damage. They do not take half again as much damage. An undead with the Cold Subtype however would take half again as much. Its the cold subtype, not the immunity, that causes them to take extra damage. Only if it lists them as having fire vulnerability does it count.
cwslyclgh 02-21-06, 06:37 PM	Now I was wondering whether or not another monster like a Skeleton, which also lists cold immunity in it's description, would have fire vulnerability even though it doesn't list it in the stat blockNo, the reason a frost giant is vulnerable to fire is because it has the (cold) subtype, not because it ahs immunity to cold (the cold subtype is also what gives it this immunity to cold coincedently). Look up cold subtype in the appendix. A creature with immunity to cold does not automatically have vulnerability to fire unless A> the stat block says so, or B> the immunity to cold comes as a result of having the (cold) subtype.
turtlemonkey 02-21-06, 08:23 PM	OKay i was under the same impression and really would like it cleared up. because some of the classes that ever give fire immunity would then impart cold vunerability but looking at the D&D glossery.. fire immunity, and fire subtype give same description http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_fireimmunity&alpha=F http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_firesubtype&alpha=F and respected cold counter parts http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_coldimmunity&alpha=C http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_coldsubtype&alpha=C with the only difference being the subtype is found in the MM, and MM3, and immunity is found in the PHB. as it reads, immunity, and subtype both impart fire invunerability, and cold vunerability (possibly to balance out hte fact cold and fire are probably have the most dmging type spells)... if this is true, it was more so just kinda lazyness that cold vunerability isnt written in. i mean granted it makes more sense for a skelton to NOT be vunerable to fire... but as written it is. perhaps more so oversight? id really like to get others opinions
cwslyclgh 02-21-06, 08:28 PM	it quite frankly doesn't matter what the PHB says, the MM is the primary source on monster abilities.
turtlemonkey 02-21-06, 08:34 PM	yeah, but this would also factor in when say.. a player gets half dragon... as its gets the immunity (and if fire/cold immunity as written) theyd get the cold/fire vunerability along with it... or some other class that imparts immunity... and since the question is on immunity, not subtype (no question weather vunerability is in the subtype). and PHB is the only one written that has immunity in it... accually the PHB is quite relavant
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 02-21-06, 08:41 PM	The DMG is wrong. The PHB is wrong. The MM is the primary source on this, and it does not state that immunity grants vulnerability. It's a careless mistake by the editor.
JiCi 02-21-06, 08:43 PM	yeah, but this would also factor in when say.. a player gets half dragon... as its gets the immunity (and if fire/cold immunity as written) theyd get the cold/fire vunerability along with it... or some other class that imparts immunity... and since the question is on immunity, not subtype (no question weather vunerability is in the subtype). and PHB is the only one written that has immunity in it... accually the PHB is quite relavantA half-dragon does not have or gain an elemental subtype, so a half-silver dragon does not get the cold subtype and thus does not take half again much damage from fire. It's all in the subtype.
turtlemonkey 02-21-06, 09:34 PM	i agree subtypes give immunity and vunerability.. but as written in glossery (and DMG), immunity gives vunerability also... and even assuming your not using a monster, but say a PrC (id have to look in some of my other books for what classes give fire/cold immunity so i cant say any off top of my head), and it gives immunity, the DMG would be the primary source, right? and since DMG is the one that accually has immunity, while MM is the one that has subtypes (no argument on subtypes). So youd go to DMG, look up immunity, and find invunerability, and low and behold see vunerability to other. there is no errata ive found about this, so its either A. and oversight never brought to their attention, or B. supposd to be that way (possibly for balance reasons) and an oversight in monster descriptions (perhaps to save space or something, since as written under any immunities, they gain vunerabilities). also since the DMG is the primary source for prc's wouldnt this over right any thing the MM states as its the secondary source (and by secondary source i mean DMG is the only one with fire/cold immunity even in it) i mean by RAW, invunerability to fire/cold gives vunerability to counter part... maybe it doesnt nessicarly make sense and needs to be errta, but as written thats what its saying