Colossal Great Wyrm Red Dragon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Colossal Great Wyrm Red Dragon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Roivas
09-09-06, 11:20 PM I've just bought the mini, now my players have to fight it. I'm letting them make 27th level chracters for the fight since it isn't going to be alone, the players will also have to content with the dragons minions, and the dragon has been built from the ground up by me to maximize it's potential deadlyness.
Now I come to the details, any advice people could give for spells for the dragon, traps for it's lair, and minions to slow the players down would be helpful.
So far I have it's feats picked, decided the dragon has a ring of elemental immunity [cold], and I might have a few Dragonkin with class levels topping them at around CR 20-23. Also I could use help making higher than CR 10 traps to fill the lair. Any advice is appreciated.
dok
09-10-06, 01:20 AM Well, by the RAW, a party of four 27th level PCs will tear through a Great Wrym Red Dragon (CR 26) like tissue paper; this isn't even close to a fair fight.

However, if you're looking for general tactics:

Spells: Red Dragons have access to cleric spells. Buffs will be handy, but will also be quickly dispelled. So there are three categories of spells I'd suggest looking at:
a.) Spells that give extra attacks. Spiritual Weapon uses the Dragon's BAB, and if it's targeting a PC, it might be far enough away from the dragon to avoid an area dispel. It attacks every round, and the dragon doesn't need to do much with it. Dito for crushing fist: it deals damage without the Dragon needing to do much. Whirlwind of Teeth from the BoVD is another good choice: it deals damage and is redirected as a free action.

b.) Spells that help instantly, or spells that don't specifically target the Dragon. Expect the dragon to be hit by a targeted dispel or disjunction. Spells like Fog cloud/Solid Fog/Acid Fog/Cloudkill limit the PCs visibility & hinder them, while the dragon's Blindsense (possibly with the Blindfight feat) let it be considerably less bothered. Obviously, heal is a no-brainer for the dragon to have on-hand, and disjunction should be considered, since the dragon has no chance of successfully dispelling the PCs buffs otherwise.

c.) Spells to seperate out party members. Forcecage is an equally obvious choice for isolating party members, as is maze. Grasping hand is a poor choice, since freedom of movement is a given at that level.

-d.) Some spells to avoid. Spells like enervation and Power Word: Kill sound like a neat idea, but really aren't, since most PCs will have death ward in place. Reverse Gravity will sort out any PCs incapable of flight, but since I expect most of them to be able to fly, it too is a waste.

e.) Wait for the inevitable disjunction, then drop time stop and rebuff. Greater Spell Immunity is a good post-disjunction buff, shutting down any four annoying spells of your choice (horrid wilting, disintegrate, plus whatever other clever spells the PCs have already used to great effect)

Traps: An old favorite of mine was the Dragon in an active volcano. Let the PCs enter a large open chamber that is very hot. The whole room is natural stone cooled from lava, and the air wavers with Severe Heat. (per the DMG definition) The room is hot because the floor is a relatively thin shell of cooled lava; the dragon will fly into the room, and dive right into the middle of the party breaking through the floor. This will leave a large hole of open lava, but also crack the entire floor, seperating the room into floating islands of stone over molten rock. (this will also raise the temperature of the room to Extreme heat) This tactic works best if the Dragon attempts to Snatch a PC as they dive through the stone.
The dragon can swim through the lava to another chamber nearby, and scrape the cooling stone off itself, but its doubtful the PCs can follow. (even if they are immunte to heat, can they Swim through Lava, and do they have Blindsense to find an opening?)
Roivas
09-10-06, 02:22 AM Thanks for the advice, I'll make sure to ward the dragon against the really obvious spells. As far as them tearing though him like tissue, the beast has max HP totalling over 1000, and isn't alone. It has many monsters who will be fighting the players at the same time. I do like you trap though.
Slagger the Chuul
09-10-06, 05:00 AM Pack antimagic field. Widened for the dragon (since it's big) or regular for its minions. Even a mordenkainen's disjunction will take a shot or two on average before it gets shut down, and that's a good ratio (especially for the 6th-level spell slot you spent on a minion vs. the 9th level spell slot the characters use trying to break it). Even epic PCs can have trouble if you grapple them without the benefit of their magical effects.

And for the fighters? Improved Disarm. You've got the size, Strength, and natural BAB to win without much difficulty, even if the defender is using a two-handed weapon and locked gauntlets. Don't forget that it can also be used to strip the PCs of non-weapons.
obrysii
09-10-06, 11:28 AM Someone posted this a while ago, so I don't take credit for it:

"It casts like a 19th level caster, with access to all Sor/Wiz and all Cleric spells and domain spells, just for the heck of it. Since getting the drop on a 1201+ year old dragon with Int 26, Wis 27 (before magic) in its lair is so extremely unlikely as to be laughable, expect it to be buffed. Severely buffed. We could be talking about a mage-armored shielded protected-from-good divine-favored mirror-imaged stat-buffed energy-resisting displaced blinking energy-protected greater-invisible fireshielded free-moving righteously-mighty spell turning mind-blanked shapechanging dragon inside a forbiddanced, private sanctumed area using a projected image and backed up by some victims of greater planar binding while you try to get into its lair through dozens of traps, not to mention walls of every flavor. Access to miracle means that he can have had nearly any spell effect it really, really wants, and I haven't even started thinking about non-Core spells or using magic items off its vast hoard."
Wolf72
09-10-06, 12:51 PM make sure your roll up all the treasure too ... and distribute the useful items to the minions.
Roivas
09-10-06, 08:33 PM I'm actually in the middle of making the dragon's main 4 allies, the antiparty. A group of choatic evil creatures starting with the githzerai ninja, a dragonkin barbarian, a vampire human cleric, and possibly a kobold sorcerer. The forbidance spell is already up, and the rest of it's buffs spells will be ready long before the party gets to him. I decided against giving the dragon wish or miracle as these spells complicate matters, I'll also be avoiding disjuction as that spell like a nuclear warhead. If I use it, they will.
As far as disarm goes, the idea has quite a bit of merit since the one of the players carries a gargantuan full blade in spite the fact he's a half-giant. He'll drop the thing for sure, making him helpless, and right at the dragon's feet.
The antimagic field would negate the dragon's allies as well, but I doubt he'll care if it means saving his own hide.
Thank you all for the advice, it has been very helpful.
SpellSticher
09-12-06, 03:44 AM Post how the battle turns out.
Armoracia Rusticana
09-12-06, 05:24 AM Antimagic field is a nice idea, actually. Dragon has huge, no, wait - colossal advantage in non-magical fight. if you have decided to place that fight indoors, you should make sure that dragon will use tactical advantages of his chambers, too. I like vulcano idea... close up with PC casters, threat them both and be ready to hit. Think about placing antimagic trap right in the meeting chamber - as dragon enters the room (through the floor, in the bursts of lava!) trap activates, making the whole room cut of magic. Than sunder weapons, snatch spellcasters to drown them in lava and full attack melee guys. Grapple is your friend - with no ability boosts, no size increases, with pathetic BAB and Str score you gonna own them all. Should they have a rogue in the party, concentrate attacks on him - his damage capabilities gonna be least affected with antimagic. And he will hurt you while you are in grapple. Fortunaly, rogues don't last long when dragons tear them apart...
Derren S.
09-12-06, 01:47 PM Give it the Blinding Breath spell. Not many parties prepare against blindness and the save is nearly impossible to make.
CryoSilver
09-12-06, 02:34 PM When I DM, dragons and BBEGs always have max hp and use the elite array.

Beyond that, be a real jerk and give the dragon Wraithstrike and Haste :P

Use Greater Dispel on the PCs
obrysii
09-12-06, 02:44 PM When I DM, dragons and BBEGs always have max hp and use the elite array.

Beyond that, be a real jerk and give the dragon Wraithstrike and Haste :P

Use Greater Dispel on the PCs

Disjunction is even better.
CryoSilver
09-12-06, 02:51 PM I don't like screwing over my players.

The only time I use Disjunction on them is when the treasure they get is worth more than what they lose. I suppose that could be the case with a dragon though...
Dale warrior
09-12-06, 06:31 PM Only advise I can give is to remember

A) The dragon is on his home turf and knows the ins and outs of its lair

B) The dragon will have made sure he has an escape route

C) The dragon knows they are coming I think simulacrum can be used to replicate the dragon by giving his two sorcerer levels, other spells can be used if you dont want to alter the dragon to create a duplicate of the dragon to make the Players waste their spells.
Mind Flayer Monk
09-12-06, 11:39 PM All the mulitple buffing stuff is a little too much, the durations would probably be too short on the buffs. I think at most the dragon should have 3 buffs on it.

I think the big thing is smart use of terrain and its core abilites. For example catching players in a small narrow area where everything is breath weaponed or Tripping warriors and eating clerics and wizzies or most likely people that are feared.

Just play like a dragon :) do some stuff for drama purposes and not just for winning, that will make it more fun I think.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
09-13-06, 01:23 PM And, if you want to be a real bastard, give it Maximize Breath Weapon, or the Rapidstrike tree. Seriously, those feats should come with a CR adjustment.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Roivas 09-09-06, 11:20 PM	I've just bought the mini, now my players have to fight it. I'm letting them make 27th level chracters for the fight since it isn't going to be alone, the players will also have to content with the dragons minions, and the dragon has been built from the ground up by me to maximize it's potential deadlyness. Now I come to the details, any advice people could give for spells for the dragon, traps for it's lair, and minions to slow the players down would be helpful. So far I have it's feats picked, decided the dragon has a ring of elemental immunity [cold], and I might have a few Dragonkin with class levels topping them at around CR 20-23. Also I could use help making higher than CR 10 traps to fill the lair. Any advice is appreciated.
dok 09-10-06, 01:20 AM	Well, by the RAW, a party of four 27th level PCs will tear through a Great Wrym Red Dragon (CR 26) like tissue paper; this isn't even close to a fair fight. However, if you're looking for general tactics: Spells: Red Dragons have access to cleric spells. Buffs will be handy, but will also be quickly dispelled. So there are three categories of spells I'd suggest looking at: a.) Spells that give extra attacks. Spiritual Weapon uses the Dragon's BAB, and if it's targeting a PC, it might be far enough away from the dragon to avoid an area dispel. It attacks every round, and the dragon doesn't need to do much with it. Dito for crushing fist: it deals damage without the Dragon needing to do much. Whirlwind of Teeth from the BoVD is another good choice: it deals damage and is redirected as a free action. b.) Spells that help instantly, or spells that don't specifically target the Dragon. Expect the dragon to be hit by a targeted dispel or disjunction. Spells like Fog cloud/Solid Fog/Acid Fog/Cloudkill limit the PCs visibility & hinder them, while the dragon's Blindsense (possibly with the Blindfight feat) let it be considerably less bothered. Obviously, heal is a no-brainer for the dragon to have on-hand, and disjunction should be considered, since the dragon has no chance of successfully dispelling the PCs buffs otherwise. c.) Spells to seperate out party members. Forcecage is an equally obvious choice for isolating party members, as is maze. Grasping hand is a poor choice, since freedom of movement is a given at that level. -d.) Some spells to avoid. Spells like enervation and Power Word: Kill sound like a neat idea, but really aren't, since most PCs will have death ward in place. Reverse Gravity will sort out any PCs incapable of flight, but since I expect most of them to be able to fly, it too is a waste. e.) Wait for the inevitable disjunction, then drop time stop and rebuff. Greater Spell Immunity is a good post-disjunction buff, shutting down any four annoying spells of your choice (horrid wilting, disintegrate, plus whatever other clever spells the PCs have already used to great effect) Traps: An old favorite of mine was the Dragon in an active volcano. Let the PCs enter a large open chamber that is very hot. The whole room is natural stone cooled from lava, and the air wavers with Severe Heat. (per the DMG definition) The room is hot because the floor is a relatively thin shell of cooled lava; the dragon will fly into the room, and dive right into the middle of the party breaking through the floor. This will leave a large hole of open lava, but also crack the entire floor, seperating the room into floating islands of stone over molten rock. (this will also raise the temperature of the room to Extreme heat) This tactic works best if the Dragon attempts to Snatch a PC as they dive through the stone. The dragon can swim through the lava to another chamber nearby, and scrape the cooling stone off itself, but its doubtful the PCs can follow. (even if they are immunte to heat, can they Swim through Lava, and do they have Blindsense to find an opening?)
Roivas 09-10-06, 02:22 AM	Thanks for the advice, I'll make sure to ward the dragon against the really obvious spells. As far as them tearing though him like tissue, the beast has max HP totalling over 1000, and isn't alone. It has many monsters who will be fighting the players at the same time. I do like you trap though.
Slagger the Chuul 09-10-06, 05:00 AM	Pack antimagic field. Widened for the dragon (since it's big) or regular for its minions. Even a mordenkainen's disjunction will take a shot or two on average before it gets shut down, and that's a good ratio (especially for the 6th-level spell slot you spent on a minion vs. the 9th level spell slot the characters use trying to break it). Even epic PCs can have trouble if you grapple them without the benefit of their magical effects. And for the fighters? Improved Disarm. You've got the size, Strength, and natural BAB to win without much difficulty, even if the defender is using a two-handed weapon and locked gauntlets. Don't forget that it can also be used to strip the PCs of non-weapons.
obrysii 09-10-06, 11:28 AM	Someone posted this a while ago, so I don't take credit for it: "It casts like a 19th level caster, with access to all Sor/Wiz and all Cleric spells and domain spells, just for the heck of it. Since getting the drop on a 1201+ year old dragon with Int 26, Wis 27 (before magic) in its lair is so extremely unlikely as to be laughable, expect it to be buffed. Severely buffed. We could be talking about a mage-armored shielded protected-from-good divine-favored mirror-imaged stat-buffed energy-resisting displaced blinking energy-protected greater-invisible fireshielded free-moving righteously-mighty spell turning mind-blanked shapechanging dragon inside a forbiddanced, private sanctumed area using a projected image and backed up by some victims of greater planar binding while you try to get into its lair through dozens of traps, not to mention walls of every flavor. Access to miracle means that he can have had nearly any spell effect it really, really wants, and I haven't even started thinking about non-Core spells or using magic items off its vast hoard."
Wolf72 09-10-06, 12:51 PM	make sure your roll up all the treasure too ... and distribute the useful items to the minions.
Roivas 09-10-06, 08:33 PM	I'm actually in the middle of making the dragon's main 4 allies, the antiparty. A group of choatic evil creatures starting with the githzerai ninja, a dragonkin barbarian, a vampire human cleric, and possibly a kobold sorcerer. The forbidance spell is already up, and the rest of it's buffs spells will be ready long before the party gets to him. I decided against giving the dragon wish or miracle as these spells complicate matters, I'll also be avoiding disjuction as that spell like a nuclear warhead. If I use it, they will. As far as disarm goes, the idea has quite a bit of merit since the one of the players carries a gargantuan full blade in spite the fact he's a half-giant. He'll drop the thing for sure, making him helpless, and right at the dragon's feet. The antimagic field would negate the dragon's allies as well, but I doubt he'll care if it means saving his own hide. Thank you all for the advice, it has been very helpful.
SpellSticher 09-12-06, 03:44 AM	Post how the battle turns out.
Armoracia Rusticana 09-12-06, 05:24 AM	Antimagic field is a nice idea, actually. Dragon has huge, no, wait - colossal advantage in non-magical fight. if you have decided to place that fight indoors, you should make sure that dragon will use tactical advantages of his chambers, too. I like vulcano idea... close up with PC casters, threat them both and be ready to hit. Think about placing antimagic trap right in the meeting chamber - as dragon enters the room (through the floor, in the bursts of lava!) trap activates, making the whole room cut of magic. Than sunder weapons, snatch spellcasters to drown them in lava and full attack melee guys. Grapple is your friend - with no ability boosts, no size increases, with pathetic BAB and Str score you gonna own them all. Should they have a rogue in the party, concentrate attacks on him - his damage capabilities gonna be least affected with antimagic. And he will hurt you while you are in grapple. Fortunaly, rogues don't last long when dragons tear them apart...
Derren S. 09-12-06, 01:47 PM	Give it the Blinding Breath spell. Not many parties prepare against blindness and the save is nearly impossible to make.
CryoSilver 09-12-06, 02:34 PM	When I DM, dragons and BBEGs always have max hp and use the elite array. Beyond that, be a real jerk and give the dragon Wraithstrike and Haste :P Use Greater Dispel on the PCs
obrysii 09-12-06, 02:44 PM	When I DM, dragons and BBEGs always have max hp and use the elite array. Beyond that, be a real jerk and give the dragon Wraithstrike and Haste :P Use Greater Dispel on the PCs Disjunction is even better.
CryoSilver 09-12-06, 02:51 PM	I don't like screwing over my players. The only time I use Disjunction on them is when the treasure they get is worth more than what they lose. I suppose that could be the case with a dragon though...
Dale warrior 09-12-06, 06:31 PM	Only advise I can give is to remember A) The dragon is on his home turf and knows the ins and outs of its lair B) The dragon will have made sure he has an escape route C) The dragon knows they are coming I think simulacrum can be used to replicate the dragon by giving his two sorcerer levels, other spells can be used if you dont want to alter the dragon to create a duplicate of the dragon to make the Players waste their spells.
Mind Flayer Monk 09-12-06, 11:39 PM	All the mulitple buffing stuff is a little too much, the durations would probably be too short on the buffs. I think at most the dragon should have 3 buffs on it. I think the big thing is smart use of terrain and its core abilites. For example catching players in a small narrow area where everything is breath weaponed or Tripping warriors and eating clerics and wizzies or most likely people that are feared. Just play like a dragon :) do some stuff for drama purposes and not just for winning, that will make it more fun I think.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 09-13-06, 01:23 PM	And, if you want to be a real bastard, give it Maximize Breath Weapon, or the Rapidstrike tree. Seriously, those feats should come with a CR adjustment.