Colossal Scorpion: Correct CR? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Colossal Scorpion: Correct CR? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
isbavatar
06-01-05, 01:24 AM With 300 hit points, a decent armor class (26), an attack bonus that won't miss (+34), an improved grab backed by a +58 to the hold, tremorsense, a 50' move, a 30' reach, and a poison DC that even the toughest 12th-level dwarven fighter could easily fail (DC 33), I cannot help but wonder if the creature is severely misrepresented by its CR of 12.

Granted, one could use a Fly spell to hover above it and pepper it with arrows, or hope that one's spells could bypass it rather hefty saves (+25/+12/+13), but wow, there really is not a method by which a like-leveled party could go toe-to-toe with the creature and win without relying on 'cheap' tactics (e.g. Flying), is there? Besides, our DM has an understandable habit of not granting experience points (regardless of CR) unless there is some sort of challenge... seeing as how it is called a Challenge Rating, I suppose.
PrinceAzar
06-01-05, 01:29 AM Just remember, it's a giant bug! :D

And I find it funny you call fly a cheap method/spell in a game with spells such as Forcecage, Wish, Time Stop, and various other spells that far excede it in power :rolleyes:
Kintara
06-01-05, 01:57 AM Flying isn't a "cheap tactic." If your party kills a Collossal scorpion by flying over it, then you were simply being smart. One reason why it's CR 12 is that "--" next to Intelligence. You had to prepare that Fly, didn't you? What about the rest of the party? Maybe they found cover (maybe not, they are damn fast, and have huge reach), and let you kill it with spells (maybe you used Orbs). That still cost resources, didn't it? Assuming you have a decent archer in the group, and he's in a position to take pot shots, then good for you. That's why you have an archer. Let's hope he brought enough arrows.

Not every group has a good archer, and sometimes the spellcaster already used his Fly.

Don't let your DM screw you out of experience for not being stupid. Besides, a good DM will make the situation complicated, or at least make the roof low.
allenthailand
06-01-05, 02:03 AM My group had the misfortune to walk right past a collossal Scorpion. He was watching a mountain pass, and they elected to become invisible and walk past. Well, they didn't reckon on tremorsense! :evillaugh

The scorpion ended up grabbing both the casters, the wizard and the cleric, and stung the cleric to boot. The cleric was down to 1 hp after all that, and the mage had about 10... they both Dimensioned Doored there way out of that situation, while the rest of the party ran, leaving a tamed monster/cohort to take the hit for them.

They decided to rest then, and came back flying. They took it out without ever being in danger.

IMO it's a bit underpowered for its CR.
d_nychus
06-01-05, 10:00 AM They rested and WERE PREPARED FOR THE ENCOUNTER. Restate: PREPARED FOR THE ENCOUNTER.

Every encounter is an easy one if the party is at full strength and prepared. Even a dragon can be a pushover with a properly prepared encounter. That is not a good judgement for CR.

What happened the first time around, with the party getting trashed, that is a good example. They were not specifically prepared for the thing, and it was a normal encounter. That is how you should judge CRs.

I feel the CR is fine. I can see it being a decent fight for a 12th level party, though not a deadly one. But if you want to see some truly stupid CRs, look at the giant scorpions and spiders in the 3.0 MM. Colossal scorpions had 416 hp, DC 54 poison with 2d8 Str damage, +44 to hit, +68 grapple, for a CR 11. This was thanks to the poorly thought-out advancement rules of 3.0 that got more and more ridiculous the higher the HD of the creature was.

Besides, our DM has an understandable habit of not granting experience points (regardless of CR) unless there is some sort of challenge... seeing as how it is called a Challenge Rating, I suppose.

No, that's not understandable. That's a poor DM. If something the party does or has available at the time makes the fight easier than normal, then that is simply smart tactics by the players, and should be rewarded by full xp and treasure. However, if there is something external that the party cannot control that makes the fight easier (like the scorpion held immobile by an effect not of the party's making or found on fire or something), that warrants a reduction in xp, as shown in the DMG.

If something is within the CR range to award xp, you should always get at least some xp for defeating/overcoming it, unless it was, say, actively not opposing you (like bar room commoners trying to get away from the PC trying to kill them for xp).
Glenn4Moose
06-01-05, 10:57 AM If any of you made a knowledge(nature) or a survival check, you could know the possibility of vermin. Using that knowledge, the best spell for turning a horridly vicious battle into a nominal encounter would be repel vermin!

Repel Vermin
Abjuration
Level: Brd 4, Clr 4, Drd 4, Rgr 3
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 10 ft.
Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation centered on you
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None or Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

An invisible barrier holds back vermin. A vermin with Hit Dice of less than one-third your level cannot penetrate the barrier.

A vermin with Hit Dice of one-third your level or more can penetrate the barrier if it succeeds on a Will save. Even so, crossing the barrier deals the vermin 2d6 points of damage, and pressing against the barrier causes pain, which deters most vermin.

Unless your dm has a very hungry vermin, it won't cross the barrier or if it does it gets dealt damage. Then the cleric just moves back 15 so it has to cross it again. 2d6 may not seem like a lot but, if played like it should be, it will bother the critter enough to go find an easier meal.
The Abominable Darkling
06-01-05, 02:24 PM There are a lot of spells that can deal with the scorpion. If you're a party of typical fighter-types; however, then you're pretty much screwed.
Gelth
06-03-05, 02:52 PM Well, the biggest threat of the scorpion (the poison) is negated by something many higher-level parties do routinely as soon as they can. One Hero's Feast in the morning completely negates poison for the rest of the day.
After that it's just a big bag of hitpoints, with reasonably good attacks.
As others point out it has no range, no tactical ability and no special attacks beyond grappling, and that only works on the first couple people, then it's claws are full.

--Penn
yonman
06-03-05, 04:34 PM Don't forget that a CR 12 is meant for FOUR level 12 adventurers, and this would be a battle that would reduce approximately 25% of the party's resources. It doesn't mean that it would kill them in an equal fight.

In the above example, the party almost got killed and if they hadn't dimensioned doored out of there they would have surely lost 50% of their party (cleric/Wizard).

Coming back and annihilating it isn't unreasonable since they knew ahead of time what they were dealing with. I'm also pretty sure that they used more than 25% of their party's resources if not their spells.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
isbavatar 06-01-05, 01:24 AM	With 300 hit points, a decent armor class (26), an attack bonus that won't miss (+34), an improved grab backed by a +58 to the hold, tremorsense, a 50' move, a 30' reach, and a poison DC that even the toughest 12th-level dwarven fighter could easily fail (DC 33), I cannot help but wonder if the creature is severely misrepresented by its CR of 12. Granted, one could use a Fly spell to hover above it and pepper it with arrows, or hope that one's spells could bypass it rather hefty saves (+25/+12/+13), but wow, there really is not a method by which a like-leveled party could go toe-to-toe with the creature and win without relying on 'cheap' tactics (e.g. Flying), is there? Besides, our DM has an understandable habit of not granting experience points (regardless of CR) unless there is some sort of challenge... seeing as how it is called a Challenge Rating, I suppose.
PrinceAzar 06-01-05, 01:29 AM	Just remember, it's a giant bug! :D And I find it funny you call fly a cheap method/spell in a game with spells such as Forcecage, Wish, Time Stop, and various other spells that far excede it in power :rolleyes:
Kintara 06-01-05, 01:57 AM	Flying isn't a "cheap tactic." If your party kills a Collossal scorpion by flying over it, then you were simply being smart. One reason why it's CR 12 is that "--" next to Intelligence. You had to prepare that Fly, didn't you? What about the rest of the party? Maybe they found cover (maybe not, they are damn fast, and have huge reach), and let you kill it with spells (maybe you used Orbs). That still cost resources, didn't it? Assuming you have a decent archer in the group, and he's in a position to take pot shots, then good for you. That's why you have an archer. Let's hope he brought enough arrows. Not every group has a good archer, and sometimes the spellcaster already used his Fly. Don't let your DM screw you out of experience for not being stupid. Besides, a good DM will make the situation complicated, or at least make the roof low.
allenthailand 06-01-05, 02:03 AM	My group had the misfortune to walk right past a collossal Scorpion. He was watching a mountain pass, and they elected to become invisible and walk past. Well, they didn't reckon on tremorsense! :evillaugh The scorpion ended up grabbing both the casters, the wizard and the cleric, and stung the cleric to boot. The cleric was down to 1 hp after all that, and the mage had about 10... they both Dimensioned Doored there way out of that situation, while the rest of the party ran, leaving a tamed monster/cohort to take the hit for them. They decided to rest then, and came back flying. They took it out without ever being in danger. IMO it's a bit underpowered for its CR.
d_nychus 06-01-05, 10:00 AM	They rested and WERE PREPARED FOR THE ENCOUNTER. Restate: PREPARED FOR THE ENCOUNTER. Every encounter is an easy one if the party is at full strength and prepared. Even a dragon can be a pushover with a properly prepared encounter. That is not a good judgement for CR. What happened the first time around, with the party getting trashed, that is a good example. They were not specifically prepared for the thing, and it was a normal encounter. That is how you should judge CRs. I feel the CR is fine. I can see it being a decent fight for a 12th level party, though not a deadly one. But if you want to see some truly stupid CRs, look at the giant scorpions and spiders in the 3.0 MM. Colossal scorpions had 416 hp, DC 54 poison with 2d8 Str damage, +44 to hit, +68 grapple, for a CR 11. This was thanks to the poorly thought-out advancement rules of 3.0 that got more and more ridiculous the higher the HD of the creature was. Besides, our DM has an understandable habit of not granting experience points (regardless of CR) unless there is some sort of challenge... seeing as how it is called a Challenge Rating, I suppose. No, that's not understandable. That's a poor DM. If something the party does or has available at the time makes the fight easier than normal, then that is simply smart tactics by the players, and should be rewarded by full xp and treasure. However, if there is something external that the party cannot control that makes the fight easier (like the scorpion held immobile by an effect not of the party's making or found on fire or something), that warrants a reduction in xp, as shown in the DMG. If something is within the CR range to award xp, you should always get at least some xp for defeating/overcoming it, unless it was, say, actively not opposing you (like bar room commoners trying to get away from the PC trying to kill them for xp).
Glenn4Moose 06-01-05, 10:57 AM	If any of you made a knowledge(nature) or a survival check, you could know the possibility of vermin. Using that knowledge, the best spell for turning a horridly vicious battle into a nominal encounter would be repel vermin! Repel Vermin Abjuration Level: Brd 4, Clr 4, Drd 4, Rgr 3 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 10 ft. Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation centered on you Duration: 10 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None or Will negates; see text Spell Resistance: Yes An invisible barrier holds back vermin. A vermin with Hit Dice of less than one-third your level cannot penetrate the barrier. A vermin with Hit Dice of one-third your level or more can penetrate the barrier if it succeeds on a Will save. Even so, crossing the barrier deals the vermin 2d6 points of damage, and pressing against the barrier causes pain, which deters most vermin. Unless your dm has a very hungry vermin, it won't cross the barrier or if it does it gets dealt damage. Then the cleric just moves back 15 so it has to cross it again. 2d6 may not seem like a lot but, if played like it should be, it will bother the critter enough to go find an easier meal.
The Abominable Darkling 06-01-05, 02:24 PM	There are a lot of spells that can deal with the scorpion. If you're a party of typical fighter-types; however, then you're pretty much screwed.
Gelth 06-03-05, 02:52 PM	Well, the biggest threat of the scorpion (the poison) is negated by something many higher-level parties do routinely as soon as they can. One Hero's Feast in the morning completely negates poison for the rest of the day. After that it's just a big bag of hitpoints, with reasonably good attacks. As others point out it has no range, no tactical ability and no special attacks beyond grappling, and that only works on the first couple people, then it's claws are full. --Penn
yonman 06-03-05, 04:34 PM	Don't forget that a CR 12 is meant for FOUR level 12 adventurers, and this would be a battle that would reduce approximately 25% of the party's resources. It doesn't mean that it would kill them in an equal fight. In the above example, the party almost got killed and if they hadn't dimensioned doored out of there they would have surely lost 50% of their party (cleric/Wizard). Coming back and annihilating it isn't unreasonable since they knew ahead of time what they were dealing with. I'm also pretty sure that they used more than 25% of their party's resources if not their spells.