Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Algorithm_X 09-16-05, 10:52 PM	You ever find that maybe collosal wasn't adequate for the actual magnitude of a creatures size? Especially with epic or Lovecraftian beings? I extended the size chart as an experiment and I would appreciate your feed back, Table: Size Modifiers Size Size Modifier Example Vast –256 Twice as big as the previous, you could live on it an not notice Immense –128 Largest mountains on earth Enormous –64 Small mountain, Xixecal (Epic Handbook as shown page 168) Massive –32 a Hill Titanic – 16 Skyscaper Colossal –8 Ancient Red Wyrm Gargantuan –4 Purple Worm Huge –2 Storm Giant Large –1 Troll Medium +0 Human Small +1 Gnome Tiny +2 Cat Diminutive +4 Toad Fine +8 Mouse
Khelvaster 09-16-05, 10:56 PM	Also need some appropriate modifiers, like scaling natural armor up with uber-size. I don't need my xixecal dying to a swarm of first level warriors with improved initiative because they all can land a hit on a 2...
OamuTheMonk 09-17-05, 01:21 AM	...but it makes good sense, at least up to Massive. Creating combats around a creature of Enormous size would be a task for only the most ardent math fetishist. I might even suggest that creatures 6 size categories apart (or more) would simply be unable to attack each other directly. It would be like a human attempting to crush a microbe between his fingers.
Nuntius128 09-17-05, 01:40 AM	I can see it, I just don't like the idea that anything non-deific should be bigger than a dragon. :P Even deities shouldn't be bigger, IMHO. Those mods really feel more planetary than monsterous, to me.
Sledged 09-17-05, 02:17 AM	Why not go the opposite direction, too?Table: Size Modifiers Size Size Modifier Example Vast –256 Twice as big as the previous, you could live on it an not notice Immense –128 Largest mountains on earth Enormous –64 Small mountain, Xixecal (Epic Handbook as shown page 168) Massive –32 a Hill Titanic – 16 Skyscaper Colossal –8 Ancient Red Wyrm Gargantuan –4 Purple Worm Huge –2 Storm Giant Large –1 Troll Medium +0 Human Small +1 Gnome Tiny +2 Cat Diminutive +4 Toad Fine +8 Mouse Wee +16 Cricket Puny +32 Flea Minuscule +64 Bacteria cell Microscopic +128 Virus Nanoscopic +256 Atom
Sapp 09-17-05, 02:55 AM	Xixecal is not as large as a small mountain. It's 50ft by 50ft which is actually quite large... but not as large as a freaking mountain. The one in the picture in the Epic Level Handbook may have been larger than the average Xixecal, maybe a 150 HD one. Even then, it's not as large as a mountain. Sure, we can have stuff larger than Colossal, but really the size modifier doesn't make much sense after -16. After a certain point, it becomes almost impossible to miss them unless you're extremely far away, in which case your RANGE prevents you from hitting them anyway. I think that's why they stopped at Colossal. Perhaps the size modifier past Colossal would only apply as BONUSES for grappling, bull rushing and the like... not AC and AB penalties, because that's ridiculous. How could it be hard for a creature with a fist the size of a mountain have a hard time hitting you? What are you going to do? Hide in some hole? You'll be pulverized along with the hole... haha. That said, we should go by the metric system. Mega (Megas; "Great") Giga (Gigas; "Giant") Tera (Teras; "Monster") Table: Size Modifiers Size Size Penalty/Bonus(grapple) Example Omnipresent -16/+infinity Existence/Reality. Cosmic –16/+48 Has a noticeable gravitational field. (Example: Krynn, Earth) Mythic –16/+40 a large continent (example: Ansalon, Eurasia) Titanic –16/+32 a large island or small continent. Gigantic -16/+24 a Fortress or Castle Colossal –8/+16 Ancient Red Wyrm Gargantuan –4/+12 Purple Worm Huge –2/+8 Storm Giant Large –1/+4 Troll Medium +0/+0 Human Small +1/-4 Gnome Tiny +2/-8 Cat Diminutive +4/-12 Toad Fine +8/-16 House Fly Negligible +16/-24 Flea Microscopic +32/-32 Bacterium Atomic +64/-40 Atom Infinitesimal +128/-48 Quark Non-existent +256/-infinity Hypothetical non-entity. EDIT: The progression stopped between Negligible and Micro.
Realms of Chaos 09-17-05, 03:28 PM	Some things are better left unthought. Using some of the suggestions on this thread, I could for instance beat the earth's gravitational pull with an exceptional grapple check and float into space or by some twist of fate, I could hit an atom, split it, and make a large boom. This really shouldn't be discussed although I admit that as is, an animate object spell could possably animate the planet (as the planet would only be collosal).
Sapp 09-18-05, 03:46 AM	Just remember that no spell exists that could increase the size of a known creature to Cosmic size. I suspect that the creatures/entities that ARE Cosmic or Mythic sized (planets; Aspects of the World Serpent: Jφrmungandr, Merrshaulk, Jazirian, Ahriman, Io... etc) have ALWAYS been Cosmic or Mythic. Hence, they are old as Hell and they probably don't need the Grapple bonus I assigned for their size. I merely wanted to stick to the linear progression that the designers created (+4 for large, +8 for huge, +12 for gargantuan, +16 for colossal). I didn't think that would be enough. I kept it linear, but made it +8 per size category instead to simulate the bigger jumps. I don't think the Earth needs a grapple check because it's not living. If it was, it would be old enough to be beyond Epic, with more than enough feats to complement its grapple bonus. The size modifier shouldn't even matter for creatures of that size. For the opposite direction, assuming that the Atom is sentient and a valid monster to challenge, it would take more than a high BAB to split an atom. An atom receives total concealment and total cover from being invisible. Also, unless it was an unstable atom, it has probably been around for a long time (it's beyond Epic). It also get tons of feats such as Self-Concealment, Dodge, Mobility, and plenty of DR and Natural Armor feats, I'm sure. As for a flea (which isn't invisible like an atom), I'd be surprised if a fighter with +16 BAB couldn't hit an immobile flea.
Voila! 09-20-05, 05:03 PM	For truly enormous monsters, combat with one should be more like fighting it section by section. Granted, it would be tough as all hell, but it still is easier than trying to manage all of the combat modifiers for creatures that dwarf gods.
ticattack 09-21-05, 12:49 AM	I think it's more of a case of "After a certain size, it doesn't make much difference." Is it that much easier to hit the ground (The planet, cosmic) than it is to hit a house (Huge, I would imagine)? Is it 8 times as easy? If I swing a cricket bat at my house when I'm standing next to it, and then I swing it at the ground, I've got about the same chance at hitting it. The same way, is it twice as easy to hit an atom than it is a quark? Is it four times easy to hit a bacterium than it is to hit a quark? No. I can't hit a bacterium, I can't hit an atom, and I can't quark. No matter how skilled I became, if I had a BAB of +2 000 006, there's just no chance. I can see what you're saying, but the way I understand it, the size ranges cut off because after a certain difference, there's no further effect.
Mirri 09-21-05, 01:01 AM	I think it's more of a case of "After a certain size, it doesn't make much difference." Is it that much easier to hit the ground (The planet, cosmic) than it is to hit a house (Huge, I would imagine)? Is it 8 times as easy? If I swing a cricket bat at my house when I'm standing next to it, and then I swing it at the ground, I've got about the same chance at hitting it. The same way, is it twice as easy to hit an atom than it is a quark? Is it four times easy to hit a bacterium than it is to hit a quark? No. I can't hit a bacterium, I can't hit an atom, and I can't quark. No matter how skilled I became, if I had a BAB of +2 000 006, there's just no chance. I can see what you're saying, but the way I understand it, the size ranges cut off because after a certain difference, there's no further effect. I'm inclined to disagree. You can miss something that's the size of a building, even if you're standing on it... but once you reach "vast" it might have its own gravitational pull and become absolutely impossible to miss no matter where you throw something or how hard you throw it. (Not really, I'm just having fun) But in any case... I think you're right, but it's more like... "exactly how many of these mountain sized things could there be in the first place?" I cast animate object on... the earth!!!
D&D_Madness 5000 09-21-05, 06:20 PM	I cast animate object on... the earth!!! :confused: WTF :confused:
obrysii 09-21-05, 08:25 PM	:confused: WTF :confused: You don't understand? Animate Object allows animation of Colossal objects (albiet at caster level 32); since Colossal is the largest size possible, it means you could, for example, animate a castle; if you really wanted, you could, RAW, animate the prime material plane (the Earth, for example).
D&D_Madness 5000 09-22-05, 07:24 AM	You don't understand? Animate Object allows animation of Colossal objects (albiet at caster level 32); since Colossal is the largest size possible, it means you could, for example, animate a castle; if you really wanted, you could, RAW, animate the prime material plane (the Earth, for example). :nonono:I make no comment :nonono:
Ipsissimus 09-22-05, 02:24 PM	I suggest taking a look at the D20 Future books and looking up spaceship sizing.
Sapp 09-23-05, 02:16 AM	If someone wanted to be particularly precise or meticulous... we could say that it's impossible to miss Cosmic-sized creatures with a ranged weapon, (even on a natural 1) because they have their own strong gravitational pull. If you miss with your bow, the arrow will come flying right back and hit its mark. Also, range increments wouldn't apply when you're attacking cosmic-sized creatures.
Fiery_Overlord 09-23-05, 02:24 AM	Ok I have read the Space ship rules. I also think "collosal" is inadequate to describe an item that is 2000 ft on a side. As also pointed out above by having that as the top size catagory with no upward mass limit a 32 level caster could animate a whole planet (if the DM was an idiot or the game was humor based) by having larger things be larger it takes more to affect them. I found the idea that as higher larger sized "armor" isn't how hard something is to hit but how it ignores damage. This is an interesting idea and I think grant a minimum DR - to creatures of Massive size would be appropriate, with an appropriate scaling upwards for larger creatures. I think "planetary" should be a couple steps beyond "vast", maybe with "continental" or something similar in between.
Sapp 09-23-05, 02:29 AM	Yeah... Continental... Planetary... haha. While we're at it... Galactic... Cosmic... Cross-cosmological... Omnipresent/Trascendent. Anyone think of any other categories we can put in between?
Rocketboy13 09-23-05, 02:55 PM	Continental? Planetary?? Cosmic??? Any sane DM would shut down perceptions of areas so large. The hit point totals would be so large and the healing capacities so high, that it wouldn't even notice the players presence. Even with epic spells or a divine rank you would be unable to harm those creatures. :teach: You would end up battleing its immune system or similiarly small sections of the greater being. Unless of course you have a Death Star. If you need this system for interaction between Spelljammers or 2 exceptionally large creatures it would probably be easier to just slide the scales down. Collossal becomes the new medium, anything bigger scalles appropriately on the system. Collossal area 30ft/30ft becomes the new five foot square. Collossal+ becomes large and takes up a 10/10 space on the grid. Collossal++ occupies huge and so forth. You could even slide the scale down again, making Collossal into fine and progressing from there, no new terms needed. :uh-huh: I have never had an instance of interacting with a monster of such proportions that would require a mathmatical adjustment of that magnitude. Once they hit that level they usually become plot devices not monsters. :tiphat:
General_Ridley 09-23-05, 06:00 PM	Draconomicon has Collossal+ in case that matters here.
vardock 09-23-05, 06:49 PM	if you do make a creature of such immense porportitions. to balance the game the characters must be able to cast a very powerful spell. for example you could make a modified version of vengefuf gaze of god that deals full damage to either several targets( sections of its body ) or change it's effect to a wide area and have the full 305d6(or d20 if you power it up that way) dealt ot each 5ft square in the area it the creature. or you could give it a crippling weakness. for example it could be extreemly venerable to certian desises or ravages. another example would be extremly explosive sacks that grows on it for some purpose such as fuel dor rocket propulsion or breath weapon that could be set fire to. or have its insides readily accessable to the characters so they can go in and perform unnecessary heart surgery!
Fiery_Overlord 09-24-05, 01:52 AM	page 119 100 Epic Adventure Ideas... ...93 The sun is infested with moon-sized parasites, and may soon fail like so many other stars have fallen to this celestial infestation. Obviously it is indeed epic to deal with beings so large "colossal" is sorely inadequate.
Ipsissimus 09-24-05, 04:35 AM	Just call it Uge...and when they said, Uge? don't you mean Huge? You reply, no they so big the H didn't fit.
Krispieman 09-24-05, 08:49 AM	I think it's more of a case of "After a certain size, it doesn't make much difference." Is it that much easier to hit the ground (The planet, cosmic) than it is to hit a house (Huge, I would imagine)? Is it 8 times as easy? If I swing a cricket bat at my house when I'm standing next to it, and then I swing it at the ground, I've got about the same chance at hitting it. I've always looked at AC not just as a matter of "Do I hit?" but also "Do I deal damage?". Imagine a simple fighter in full-plate. He's not jumping and dodging around the place, so it's probably not hard to hit him. His armor does prevent most of those hits from doing any real damage to him. Naturally, this makes it so a Cosmic creature (planet?) would be easier to hit/damage than a house (Huge), but DR probably should be factored in somewhere. I mean, we're hit by microscopic things all the time, without noticing, because they can't bypass our skin (DR!). K-man :cool:
Sapp 09-24-05, 11:14 PM	That makes sense... High DR... Then again, just by the size bonuses to Constitution, cosmic-sized creatures would have Hit Points through the roof... What would 1 damage or two... or a hundred do to such a beast? Anyway, what kind of creatures would qualify for these sizes that surpass colossal? I can think of aspects of the World Serpent: Jφrmungandr, Merrshaulk, Jazirian, Ahriman, Io... Each one easily the size of a small planet. What else?
Voila! 09-27-05, 05:20 PM	Just out of curiosity, how big should a zaratan be? They're the island-sized turtles in the Arms & Equipment guide. If 2000 feet on a side makes Colossal seem inadequate, then how big should island turtles be?
Sapp 09-27-05, 05:27 PM	Hey, I remember those guys! They were in 2nd Edition MM. Does "gigantic" or "titanic" sound like a good enough size/adjective for you?
OamuTheMonk 09-27-05, 09:45 PM	...The more certain I am that these size categories are pointless. No one will ever use them in actual play. Any DM worth his salt that plans an encounter around a monster so big that it defies the standard categories will have a better system than just creating new size categories. It's kind of depressing, actually, how long a thread like this will last, considering how everyone that posts on it seems to have more and more suggestions for tweaking a system that will never see use in anyone's game anywhere (with the possible exception of the OP). It's like debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Sapp 09-28-05, 03:02 AM	It's all in good humor. I'm fairly sure most people caught that when we started talking about gravitational fields.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-28-05, 03:33 AM	Finally, we can begins statting Neth...
Algorithm_X 09-28-05, 12:47 PM	Neth, The Plane that lives. Here is one of the things that has bothered me about such immense beings and having them without stats, at epic levels you start creating spells that affect really large areas. Potentially able to devastate vast areas. Killing Neth is not an impossible dream (then raising him as undead... perhaps; sounds like an epic lich thing to do) Now I think it would be reasonable that beings titanic and beyond have a minimum DR and minimum UER (Universal Energy Resistance, meaning resistance to all energy types, named or unnamed) in the same respect the current larger size categories have minimum HD. I also think above a certain size Divine ranks should be required. Real life mythology tells of gods so fast the known universe is just a piece of their anatomy, what if it was more than metaphor in a particular game world? I am still working on the monster creation chart for ability scores, I have found conflicting algorithms to predict advancement past the established categories. If someone would like to input their thoughts on the appropriate formula, please do.