complete Insectoid and arthropodic creatures [Archive] - Wizards Community

complete Insectoid and arthropodic creatures [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Prak, the Mad
08-04-06, 07:30 PM my recent creation of a Thri-kreen has lead me to examine insects, and I found that, well, if anything, Thri-kreen are more human than insect, because insects should have several other qualities, including:

Tremorsense(antennae)
Scent(antennae)
+2 Move Silently(no heartbeat due to circulatory system, "blood"[haemolymph] lubricates body)
indiscernable anatomy(possibly, maybe just a light fortification effect, due to interior anatomy being quite different from any other creature's)
minor regeneration(all arthropods can regenerate lost limbs, I believe)
limited susceptibility to fatigue, spericles, the holes through which arthropods breath, are arrayed along body and limbs, these holes provide much more oxygen to the muscles than a human's respiratory system, an insect could, assuming sufficient nurishment, continue moving for days.

given this, one can assume one of two things, either the designers didn't research insects(the likely case), or that insectoid humanoids are more humanoid than insectoid...
pileobone
08-04-06, 07:52 PM Perhaps, but in a system as complex and yet simple as D&D, assuming is a dangerous game. I'm sure the designers realized some, if not all of this, but decided to leave it out for simplicity sake.

EDIT: Long live the Unitarian Jihad!!
Prak, the Mad
08-04-06, 08:03 PM all true, though I like the idea of my thri-kreen being tireless... meh, the dm wanders the boards, maybe he'll see this and make his own decision without me pushing things...
Th_Ar_Al
08-04-06, 09:00 PM If I remember rigth insects can't grow to large (in real world), because of the lack of lumbs. They can't give oxigen to they bodies =P. but maybe I am wrong.
Prak, the Mad
08-05-06, 02:20 AM If I remember rigth insects can't grow to large (in real world), because of the lack of lumbs. They can't give oxigen to they bodies =P. but maybe I am wrong.
actually, IIRC, you're almost right, technically spiders can't grow much larger than "small" because of their respiratory system, but spiders and insects are different. Spiders have what is known as a book-lung, they also move their legs by pumping air through them, so the anatomy of a spider prevents them from getting particularly large, however, D&D has spiders that could dwarf medium buildings, and it says nothing about their anatomy being different, so....
Cthulhu3125
08-05-06, 09:09 AM Another limiting factor for the size of insects is the mechanism of operation of the leg joints. The muscles are inside the exoskeleton, which is different from the mammalian situation of having muscles attached to an internal skeleton. Eventually, you reach a size where the weight of the exoskeleton is too great to be moved by an internal musculature.
Th_Ar_Al
08-05-06, 10:25 AM Like I said: real world, that is something that DnD never cared about =P

if I remember well in the pre-historic past existed very big insects and scorpions, some are big as a dog. Still aren't the godzilla-enemies things that we see in DnD this mean that they are possible, but they are extinct so this mean that they aren't that powerfull anyway what Cthulhu3125 is probably one of the factors that helped they destruction. =P
Draconigeno
08-05-06, 10:44 AM Another limiting factor on Insect size is the fact that inorder to support the insect/arachnid's mass at a near human size, the exoskeleton needs to be so thick that there is little internal room for vital organs.

However, this does not nessicarily apply to a fantasy world like D&D. If it did then there wouldn't be spiders the size of cottages (or small villiages at the colossal size) nor would there be upright mobile mantids such as Thri-kreen.

My point here is that rl arthropod traits need not apply to D&D creatures. The Designers did not nessicarily poorly research these things so much as they just went with more easily worked, and hence balanced for the game, traits. If, for example, a Thri-kreen had tremosense or indecernible anatomy then DMs may be less apt to allow them as playable characters.
Prak, the Mad
08-05-06, 05:28 PM Another limiting factor on Insect size is the fact that inorder to support the insect/arachnid's mass at a near human size, the exoskeleton needs to be so thick that there is little internal room for vital organs.

However, this does not nessicarily apply to a fantasy world like D&D. If it did then there wouldn't be spiders the size of cottages (or small villiages at the colossal size) nor would there be upright mobile mantids such as Thri-kreen.

My point here is that rl arthropod traits need not apply to D&D creatures. The Designers did not nessicarily poorly research these things so much as they just went with more easily worked, and hence balanced for the game, traits. If, for example, a Thri-kreen had tremosense or indecernible anatomy then DMs may be less apt to allow them as playable characters.
yeah, that's the main problem, and actually, I'd say thri-kreen and other (monstrous) humanoid insectoids should have scent, +2 move silently and reduced susceptibility to fatigue from travel. the other traits shoud only apply to vermin and magical beasts.
Draconigeno
08-06-06, 09:30 AM yeah, that's the main problem, and actually, I'd say thri-kreen and other (monstrous) humanoid insectoids should have scent, +2 move silently and reduced susceptibility to fatigue from travel. the other traits shoud only apply to vermin and magical beasts.

If you DM supports giving those traits to thri-kreen/humanoid insects then it is entirely his decision. Likely those traits would bring an additional +1 to LA at minimum, a hard-nosed DM may tack on +2 to LA just to be certain the LA is balanced.
Prak, the Mad
08-06-06, 09:47 PM yeah, but I really don't think it's worth a +1 even, not by savage species...(it may be 3.0, but it's the only thing that talks about LA, so it's what I go by until they make a 3.5 LA guide.)
utilitarian
08-06-06, 10:25 PM my recent creation of a Thri-kreen has lead me to examine insects, and I found that, well, if anything, Thri-kreen are more human than insect, because insects should have several other qualities, including:

Tremorsense(antennae)
Scent(antennae)
+2 Move Silently(no heartbeat due to circulatory system, "blood"[haemolymph] lubricates body)
indiscernable anatomy(possibly, maybe just a light fortification effect, due to interior anatomy being quite different from any other creature's)
minor regeneration(all arthropods can regenerate lost limbs, I believe)
limited susceptibility to fatigue, spericles, the holes through which arthropods breath, are arrayed along body and limbs, these holes provide much more oxygen to the muscles than a human's respiratory system, an insect could, assuming sufficient nurishment, continue moving for days.

given this, one can assume one of two things, either the designers didn't research insects(the likely case), or that insectoid humanoids are more humanoid than insectoid...
Not all insects are created equal. The Thri-kreen's antennae aren't sensitive enough to give it Scent, but on the other hand Dromite antennae are.

I think the no heartbeat thing is too minor to warrant a bonus on move silently. How often are you given away by your heartbeat?

They still HAVE anatomy, it's just not the same as human anatomy. Far more bizzarre things have weirder anatomies than insectoid humans. How the hell do you know how to get at a beholder's weak points? Case in point, critting is considered to have hit a weak point, regardless of whether you know where they are or not, and Sneak Attack is considered to also give you the ability to discern where those weak points ARE.

Do we know that Thri-kreen breathe through sphiracles? They're not true insects after all. Perhaps they don't.

Case in point, they're a.) not insects, but insectoid humanoids, and b.) A race of beings in a fantasy setting that was never intended to be held up to a detailed entomological analysis. It's a game. A fantasy game. You know what else is inaccurate to real life? Wizards hurling fireballs at floating eyeballs!

Besides, if you added all the changes you're suggesting they'd be like LA+5 or something like that and that'd just be silly.
Prak, the Mad
08-06-06, 10:35 PM Not all insects are created equal. The Thri-kreen's antennae aren't sensitive enough to give it Scent, but on the other hand Dromite antennae are.

I think the no heartbeat thing is too minor to warrant a bonus on move silently. How often are you given away by your heartbeat?

They still HAVE anatomy, it's just not the same as human anatomy. Far more bizzarre things have weirder anatomies than insectoid humans. How the hell do you know how to get at a beholder's weak points? Case in point, critting is considered to have hit a weak point, regardless of whether you know where they are or not, and Sneak Attack is considered to also give you the ability to discern where those weak points ARE.

Do we know that Thri-kreen breathe through sphiracles? They're not true insects after all. Perhaps they don't.

Case in point, they're a.) not insects, but insectoid humanoids, and b.) A race of beings in a fantasy setting that was never intended to be held up to a detailed entomological analysis. It's a game. A fantasy game. You know what else is inaccurate to real life? Wizards hurling fireballs at floating eyeballs!

Besides, if you added all the changes you're suggesting they'd be like LA+5 or something like that and that'd just be silly.
yes, well, some of us like a bit of realism in our games, does gravity work in your game? or is too realistic?
Rotipher
08-06-06, 10:38 PM If anything, spiracles would be a liability, as they'd prevent a thri-kreen from ever holding its breath. Alan Dean Foster's "thranx", an alien race much like small thri-kreen, could drown if they so much as waded across a shallow pond.
Ninetails Demon
08-06-06, 10:48 PM [QUOTE=Prak, the Mad]limited susceptibility to fatigue, spericles, the holes through which arthropods breath, are arrayed along body and limbs, these holes provide much more oxygen to the muscles than a human's respiratory system, an insect could, assuming sufficient nurishment, continue moving for days.[QUOTE]

Unless it was changed from 2e to 3e, Thri-Kreen don't sleep. I think that goes with the whole idea of limited fatigue.
Prak, the Mad
08-06-06, 10:49 PM ... good point
Prak, the Mad
08-06-06, 10:52 PM [QUOTE=Prak, the Mad]limited susceptibility to fatigue, spericles, the holes through which arthropods breath, are arrayed along body and limbs, these holes provide much more oxygen to the muscles than a human's respiratory system, an insect could, assuming sufficient nurishment, continue moving for days.[QUOTE]

Unless it was changed from 2e to 3e, Thri-Kreen don't sleep. I think that goes with the whole idea of limited fatigue.
I don't remember that, though I may have missed it... I'll check
Hammerclaw
08-10-06, 05:03 PM Monte Cook had a nice article on his web-site several years ago about adding tremorsense and a watered down version of no discernable anatomy (i.e. 50% that critical hits/sneak attacks didn't function, just regular damage, ranger bonus unaffected). He suggested the two together would increase a vermin's CR by 1 or if less than 1, than by 1 step. (1/3 became 1/2, 1/2 became 1, etc.) Unfortunately, I can't seem to find the article on his current web-site. Shame. He had stats for giant cockroaches and giant maggots, too.

Not sure how those two, would affect insectile player character races, but adding scent, while logical, would be unbalancing. Perhaps explain it that, as the race evolved to sentience, that the finer scent sense was lost. Perhaps a monstrous scent feat could be developed for those that wish to recapture that lost ability. Would prove logical for many sentient yet beastial races. Not just insectile ones.
Prak, the Mad
08-11-06, 01:44 AM yep, saw monte cook's article, and why is scent unbalancing?
Callahan
08-11-06, 09:27 AM you know, I'd dissagry with you if I didn't personaly shoot a grasshopper five times with a bb-gun.

I had about 25% of it's body left and was still hopping around. It finaly died after I stepped on it.

Long story short: Insects are REALLY tough.
Prak, the Mad
08-11-06, 05:24 PM I'd... hurt you, if I knew you...

but thank you for helping my case with your wonderful[/sarcasm] animal cruelity story...
was_fired
08-11-06, 10:36 PM Not animal, vermin. The fact is though that if you want more "realism" in your game by adding these traits you should also add in some of the negative effects:

* Tremorsense(antennae)
* Scent(antennae)
Result in insects being nearly unable to smell things form a distance. Atennaes are great since they allow for tasting of the air, but since they also serve as auditory receptors for bugs as opposed to say ears they leave bugs in a poor state for hearing. I'm sure you are already aware the the shape of your ear is largely responsible for allowing you to determine where sounds come from. Insects lack this. So what, impose a -4 penalty to all Listen checks since bugs have inferior auditory sensors?

* +2 Move Silently(no heartbeat due to circulatory system, "blood"[haemolymph] lubricates body)

This one isn't even possible for large insects, and as such isn't worth discussing. The book lung of the spider is actually move advanced than the muscle propelled fluids which insects deal with. A creature with an intellegence score needs some sort of circulatory system in order to feed its brain barring an aberations anatomy which bugs lack.

indiscernable anatomy(possibly, maybe just a light fortification effect, due to interior anatomy being quite different from any other creature's)

True, most are much more resistant to death due to limb loss and the like, but since a circulatory system is required as bugs get larger this benefit would be lost. Only tiny creatures can get away with this effect, and that doesn't just apply to bugs it applies to almost all very small animals since blood clots more easily when tiny.

* minor regeneration(all arthropods can regenerate lost limbs, I believe)

Yep, but this also means every week or month when this takes place the insect will have to be helpless for a few hours depending on size (the larger the longer the helpless period). I wouldn't give the player control over this natural bodily function so it could get to be a real pain. Also a day or two before the molt the creature should experiance a penalty to dexterity due to the improper fit. Also for a few hours after the molt the creature should have no natural armor bonus.

* limited susceptibility to fatigue, spericles, the holes through which arthropods breath, are arrayed along body and limbs, these holes provide much more oxygen to the muscles than a human's respiratory system, an insect could, assuming sufficient nurishment, continue moving for days.

In exchange for vulnerability to dehydration and not being able to hold your breath as long (Con Score / 2 Rounds rounded down). The major reason large animals lack breathing holes is because they dry out quickly. The membrane needs to stay moist for the the creature to breathe. Now odds are larger animals would also have lungs since they can't bring in enough air so lets just assume these are suplimentary and can't cause suffocation. They can still lose water, and do so quickly so lets say that instead of checking against dehydration daily bugs need to do it hourly when in an arid enviorment.
was_fired
08-11-06, 10:47 PM All of that said it is easier to ignore all of this and just use the RAW. Too much realism is a waste of time, and half-assed realism is just plain annoying.
Insane Pixie
08-11-06, 11:09 PM you know, I'd dissagry with you if I didn't personaly shoot a grasshopper five times with a bb-gun.

I had about 25% of it's body left and was still hopping around. It finaly died after I stepped on it.

Long story short: Insects are REALLY tough.

Short story shorter: Callahan is a terrible person.

;)

All of that said it is easier to ignore all of this and just use the RAW. Too much realism is a waste of time, and half-assed realism is just plain annoying.

Amen.

Although, I wouldn't mind if those features were added to new vermin.
Callahan
08-12-06, 12:29 AM swatting a bug, shooting a bug, what's the difference?

I didn't know that it'd survive it, that's why I shot it five times, to make sure it had a humane death... but the bastard just plain wouldn't accept fate.

Anyhow, I do suggest that you make this personalised much like the special undead in Libris Mortis.

True Insectoid
Toughness: +2 hp per level
Indiscernible anatomy: critical don't work 50% of the time
Tremor Sense
(regeneration would be out of game. As in it could re-grow limbs but gains no hit points during combat)

Level adjustment +1
was_fired
08-12-06, 02:41 AM In callahn's defense I seriously doubt that every here hasn't at some point watched a bug die a horrible death or simply kill a bug in a horrible way. Be in ants under a magnifying glass, throwing a daddy long legs into a camp fire, partially squashing a roach (those things are tough to kill without making your shoes messy), or some other random inhumane death. This is all made better by the fact that it's just a bug. One of the lifeforms humans care about the least.

Right now I am sitting next to a 10 gallon tank full of crickets. They are alive to feed my leopard gecko (he's been chomping crickets for over a decade now). I've seen the buggers drown themselves by running under water and staying there. I've seen 'em go for a swim to be pulled down under a newt and devoured. Watching my baby water dragon eat them was by far the best though as he would thrash them around be finally eating them. So really it's hard for a guy like me to care about bugs since when I see a cricket or worm I think herp food. When I see a mosquito I think, time to kill it. When I see a moth I wonder how long until my cat notices it and has some fun with his snack. Sure I am nicer to nicer looking bugs, but in the end unless a bug has a use to me I couldn't care less about it. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Prak, the Mad 08-04-06, 07:30 PM	my recent creation of a Thri-kreen has lead me to examine insects, and I found that, well, if anything, Thri-kreen are more human than insect, because insects should have several other qualities, including: Tremorsense(antennae) Scent(antennae) +2 Move Silently(no heartbeat due to circulatory system, "blood"[haemolymph] lubricates body) indiscernable anatomy(possibly, maybe just a light fortification effect, due to interior anatomy being quite different from any other creature's) minor regeneration(all arthropods can regenerate lost limbs, I believe) limited susceptibility to fatigue, spericles, the holes through which arthropods breath, are arrayed along body and limbs, these holes provide much more oxygen to the muscles than a human's respiratory system, an insect could, assuming sufficient nurishment, continue moving for days. given this, one can assume one of two things, either the designers didn't research insects(the likely case), or that insectoid humanoids are more humanoid than insectoid...
pileobone 08-04-06, 07:52 PM	Perhaps, but in a system as complex and yet simple as D&D, assuming is a dangerous game. I'm sure the designers realized some, if not all of this, but decided to leave it out for simplicity sake. EDIT: Long live the Unitarian Jihad!!
Prak, the Mad 08-04-06, 08:03 PM	all true, though I like the idea of my thri-kreen being tireless... meh, the dm wanders the boards, maybe he'll see this and make his own decision without me pushing things...
Th_Ar_Al 08-04-06, 09:00 PM	If I remember rigth insects can't grow to large (in real world), because of the lack of lumbs. They can't give oxigen to they bodies =P. but maybe I am wrong.
Prak, the Mad 08-05-06, 02:20 AM	If I remember rigth insects can't grow to large (in real world), because of the lack of lumbs. They can't give oxigen to they bodies =P. but maybe I am wrong. actually, IIRC, you're almost right, technically spiders can't grow much larger than "small" because of their respiratory system, but spiders and insects are different. Spiders have what is known as a book-lung, they also move their legs by pumping air through them, so the anatomy of a spider prevents them from getting particularly large, however, D&D has spiders that could dwarf medium buildings, and it says nothing about their anatomy being different, so....
Cthulhu3125 08-05-06, 09:09 AM	Another limiting factor for the size of insects is the mechanism of operation of the leg joints. The muscles are inside the exoskeleton, which is different from the mammalian situation of having muscles attached to an internal skeleton. Eventually, you reach a size where the weight of the exoskeleton is too great to be moved by an internal musculature.
Th_Ar_Al 08-05-06, 10:25 AM	Like I said: real world, that is something that DnD never cared about =P if I remember well in the pre-historic past existed very big insects and scorpions, some are big as a dog. Still aren't the godzilla-enemies things that we see in DnD this mean that they are possible, but they are extinct so this mean that they aren't that powerfull anyway what Cthulhu3125 is probably one of the factors that helped they destruction. =P
Draconigeno 08-05-06, 10:44 AM	Another limiting factor on Insect size is the fact that inorder to support the insect/arachnid's mass at a near human size, the exoskeleton needs to be so thick that there is little internal room for vital organs. However, this does not nessicarily apply to a fantasy world like D&D. If it did then there wouldn't be spiders the size of cottages (or small villiages at the colossal size) nor would there be upright mobile mantids such as Thri-kreen. My point here is that rl arthropod traits need not apply to D&D creatures. The Designers did not nessicarily poorly research these things so much as they just went with more easily worked, and hence balanced for the game, traits. If, for example, a Thri-kreen had tremosense or indecernible anatomy then DMs may be less apt to allow them as playable characters.
Prak, the Mad 08-05-06, 05:28 PM	Another limiting factor on Insect size is the fact that inorder to support the insect/arachnid's mass at a near human size, the exoskeleton needs to be so thick that there is little internal room for vital organs. However, this does not nessicarily apply to a fantasy world like D&D. If it did then there wouldn't be spiders the size of cottages (or small villiages at the colossal size) nor would there be upright mobile mantids such as Thri-kreen. My point here is that rl arthropod traits need not apply to D&D creatures. The Designers did not nessicarily poorly research these things so much as they just went with more easily worked, and hence balanced for the game, traits. If, for example, a Thri-kreen had tremosense or indecernible anatomy then DMs may be less apt to allow them as playable characters. yeah, that's the main problem, and actually, I'd say thri-kreen and other (monstrous) humanoid insectoids should have scent, +2 move silently and reduced susceptibility to fatigue from travel. the other traits shoud only apply to vermin and magical beasts.
Draconigeno 08-06-06, 09:30 AM	yeah, that's the main problem, and actually, I'd say thri-kreen and other (monstrous) humanoid insectoids should have scent, +2 move silently and reduced susceptibility to fatigue from travel. the other traits shoud only apply to vermin and magical beasts. If you DM supports giving those traits to thri-kreen/humanoid insects then it is entirely his decision. Likely those traits would bring an additional +1 to LA at minimum, a hard-nosed DM may tack on +2 to LA just to be certain the LA is balanced.
Prak, the Mad 08-06-06, 09:47 PM	yeah, but I really don't think it's worth a +1 even, not by savage species...(it may be 3.0, but it's the only thing that talks about LA, so it's what I go by until they make a 3.5 LA guide.)
utilitarian 08-06-06, 10:25 PM	my recent creation of a Thri-kreen has lead me to examine insects, and I found that, well, if anything, Thri-kreen are more human than insect, because insects should have several other qualities, including: Tremorsense(antennae) Scent(antennae) +2 Move Silently(no heartbeat due to circulatory system, "blood"[haemolymph] lubricates body) indiscernable anatomy(possibly, maybe just a light fortification effect, due to interior anatomy being quite different from any other creature's) minor regeneration(all arthropods can regenerate lost limbs, I believe) limited susceptibility to fatigue, spericles, the holes through which arthropods breath, are arrayed along body and limbs, these holes provide much more oxygen to the muscles than a human's respiratory system, an insect could, assuming sufficient nurishment, continue moving for days. given this, one can assume one of two things, either the designers didn't research insects(the likely case), or that insectoid humanoids are more humanoid than insectoid... Not all insects are created equal. The Thri-kreen's antennae aren't sensitive enough to give it Scent, but on the other hand Dromite antennae are. I think the no heartbeat thing is too minor to warrant a bonus on move silently. How often are you given away by your heartbeat? They still HAVE anatomy, it's just not the same as human anatomy. Far more bizzarre things have weirder anatomies than insectoid humans. How the hell do you know how to get at a beholder's weak points? Case in point, critting is considered to have hit a weak point, regardless of whether you know where they are or not, and Sneak Attack is considered to also give you the ability to discern where those weak points ARE. Do we know that Thri-kreen breathe through sphiracles? They're not true insects after all. Perhaps they don't. Case in point, they're a.) not insects, but insectoid humanoids, and b.) A race of beings in a fantasy setting that was never intended to be held up to a detailed entomological analysis. It's a game. A fantasy game. You know what else is inaccurate to real life? Wizards hurling fireballs at floating eyeballs! Besides, if you added all the changes you're suggesting they'd be like LA+5 or something like that and that'd just be silly.
Prak, the Mad 08-06-06, 10:35 PM	Not all insects are created equal. The Thri-kreen's antennae aren't sensitive enough to give it Scent, but on the other hand Dromite antennae are. I think the no heartbeat thing is too minor to warrant a bonus on move silently. How often are you given away by your heartbeat? They still HAVE anatomy, it's just not the same as human anatomy. Far more bizzarre things have weirder anatomies than insectoid humans. How the hell do you know how to get at a beholder's weak points? Case in point, critting is considered to have hit a weak point, regardless of whether you know where they are or not, and Sneak Attack is considered to also give you the ability to discern where those weak points ARE. Do we know that Thri-kreen breathe through sphiracles? They're not true insects after all. Perhaps they don't. Case in point, they're a.) not insects, but insectoid humanoids, and b.) A race of beings in a fantasy setting that was never intended to be held up to a detailed entomological analysis. It's a game. A fantasy game. You know what else is inaccurate to real life? Wizards hurling fireballs at floating eyeballs! Besides, if you added all the changes you're suggesting they'd be like LA+5 or something like that and that'd just be silly. yes, well, some of us like a bit of realism in our games, does gravity work in your game? or is too realistic?
Rotipher 08-06-06, 10:38 PM	If anything, spiracles would be a liability, as they'd prevent a thri-kreen from ever holding its breath. Alan Dean Foster's "thranx", an alien race much like small thri-kreen, could drown if they so much as waded across a shallow pond.
Ninetails Demon 08-06-06, 10:48 PM	[QUOTE=Prak, the Mad]limited susceptibility to fatigue, spericles, the holes through which arthropods breath, are arrayed along body and limbs, these holes provide much more oxygen to the muscles than a human's respiratory system, an insect could, assuming sufficient nurishment, continue moving for days.[QUOTE] Unless it was changed from 2e to 3e, Thri-Kreen don't sleep. I think that goes with the whole idea of limited fatigue.
Prak, the Mad 08-06-06, 10:49 PM	... good point
Prak, the Mad 08-06-06, 10:52 PM	[QUOTE=Prak, the Mad]limited susceptibility to fatigue, spericles, the holes through which arthropods breath, are arrayed along body and limbs, these holes provide much more oxygen to the muscles than a human's respiratory system, an insect could, assuming sufficient nurishment, continue moving for days.[QUOTE] Unless it was changed from 2e to 3e, Thri-Kreen don't sleep. I think that goes with the whole idea of limited fatigue. I don't remember that, though I may have missed it... I'll check
Hammerclaw 08-10-06, 05:03 PM	Monte Cook had a nice article on his web-site several years ago about adding tremorsense and a watered down version of no discernable anatomy (i.e. 50% that critical hits/sneak attacks didn't function, just regular damage, ranger bonus unaffected). He suggested the two together would increase a vermin's CR by 1 or if less than 1, than by 1 step. (1/3 became 1/2, 1/2 became 1, etc.) Unfortunately, I can't seem to find the article on his current web-site. Shame. He had stats for giant cockroaches and giant maggots, too. Not sure how those two, would affect insectile player character races, but adding scent, while logical, would be unbalancing. Perhaps explain it that, as the race evolved to sentience, that the finer scent sense was lost. Perhaps a monstrous scent feat could be developed for those that wish to recapture that lost ability. Would prove logical for many sentient yet beastial races. Not just insectile ones.
Prak, the Mad 08-11-06, 01:44 AM	yep, saw monte cook's article, and why is scent unbalancing?
Callahan 08-11-06, 09:27 AM	you know, I'd dissagry with you if I didn't personaly shoot a grasshopper five times with a bb-gun. I had about 25% of it's body left and was still hopping around. It finaly died after I stepped on it. Long story short: Insects are REALLY tough.
Prak, the Mad 08-11-06, 05:24 PM	I'd... hurt you, if I knew you... but thank you for helping my case with your wonderful[/sarcasm] animal cruelity story...
was_fired 08-11-06, 10:36 PM	Not animal, vermin. The fact is though that if you want more "realism" in your game by adding these traits you should also add in some of the negative effects: * Tremorsense(antennae) * Scent(antennae) Result in insects being nearly unable to smell things form a distance. Atennaes are great since they allow for tasting of the air, but since they also serve as auditory receptors for bugs as opposed to say ears they leave bugs in a poor state for hearing. I'm sure you are already aware the the shape of your ear is largely responsible for allowing you to determine where sounds come from. Insects lack this. So what, impose a -4 penalty to all Listen checks since bugs have inferior auditory sensors? * +2 Move Silently(no heartbeat due to circulatory system, "blood"[haemolymph] lubricates body) This one isn't even possible for large insects, and as such isn't worth discussing. The book lung of the spider is actually move advanced than the muscle propelled fluids which insects deal with. A creature with an intellegence score needs some sort of circulatory system in order to feed its brain barring an aberations anatomy which bugs lack. indiscernable anatomy(possibly, maybe just a light fortification effect, due to interior anatomy being quite different from any other creature's) True, most are much more resistant to death due to limb loss and the like, but since a circulatory system is required as bugs get larger this benefit would be lost. Only tiny creatures can get away with this effect, and that doesn't just apply to bugs it applies to almost all very small animals since blood clots more easily when tiny. * minor regeneration(all arthropods can regenerate lost limbs, I believe) Yep, but this also means every week or month when this takes place the insect will have to be helpless for a few hours depending on size (the larger the longer the helpless period). I wouldn't give the player control over this natural bodily function so it could get to be a real pain. Also a day or two before the molt the creature should experiance a penalty to dexterity due to the improper fit. Also for a few hours after the molt the creature should have no natural armor bonus. * limited susceptibility to fatigue, spericles, the holes through which arthropods breath, are arrayed along body and limbs, these holes provide much more oxygen to the muscles than a human's respiratory system, an insect could, assuming sufficient nurishment, continue moving for days. In exchange for vulnerability to dehydration and not being able to hold your breath as long (Con Score / 2 Rounds rounded down). The major reason large animals lack breathing holes is because they dry out quickly. The membrane needs to stay moist for the the creature to breathe. Now odds are larger animals would also have lungs since they can't bring in enough air so lets just assume these are suplimentary and can't cause suffocation. They can still lose water, and do so quickly so lets say that instead of checking against dehydration daily bugs need to do it hourly when in an arid enviorment.
was_fired 08-11-06, 10:47 PM	All of that said it is easier to ignore all of this and just use the RAW. Too much realism is a waste of time, and half-assed realism is just plain annoying.
Insane Pixie 08-11-06, 11:09 PM	you know, I'd dissagry with you if I didn't personaly shoot a grasshopper five times with a bb-gun. I had about 25% of it's body left and was still hopping around. It finaly died after I stepped on it. Long story short: Insects are REALLY tough. Short story shorter: Callahan is a terrible person. ;) All of that said it is easier to ignore all of this and just use the RAW. Too much realism is a waste of time, and half-assed realism is just plain annoying. Amen. Although, I wouldn't mind if those features were added to new vermin.
Callahan 08-12-06, 12:29 AM	swatting a bug, shooting a bug, what's the difference? I didn't know that it'd survive it, that's why I shot it five times, to make sure it had a humane death... but the bastard just plain wouldn't accept fate. Anyhow, I do suggest that you make this personalised much like the special undead in Libris Mortis. True Insectoid Toughness: +2 hp per level Indiscernible anatomy: critical don't work 50% of the time Tremor Sense (regeneration would be out of game. As in it could re-grow limbs but gains no hit points during combat) Level adjustment +1
was_fired 08-12-06, 02:41 AM	In callahn's defense I seriously doubt that every here hasn't at some point watched a bug die a horrible death or simply kill a bug in a horrible way. Be in ants under a magnifying glass, throwing a daddy long legs into a camp fire, partially squashing a roach (those things are tough to kill without making your shoes messy), or some other random inhumane death. This is all made better by the fact that it's just a bug. One of the lifeforms humans care about the least. Right now I am sitting next to a 10 gallon tank full of crickets. They are alive to feed my leopard gecko (he's been chomping crickets for over a decade now). I've seen the buggers drown themselves by running under water and staying there. I've seen 'em go for a swim to be pulled down under a newt and devoured. Watching my baby water dragon eat them was by far the best though as he would thrash them around be finally eating them. So really it's hard for a guy like me to care about bugs since when I see a cricket or worm I think herp food. When I see a mosquito I think, time to kill it. When I see a moth I wonder how long until my cat notices it and has some fun with his snack. Sure I am nicer to nicer looking bugs, but in the end unless a bug has a use to me I couldn't care less about it. :)