Concept of Turning Vulnerability (for high hp undead, who you can actually turn!!!!) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Concept of Turning Vulnerability (for high hp undead, who you can actually turn!!!!) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Paladin2004
07-18-05, 10:09 AM I was reading a post early that talked about how undead didn't get many hit points because of the lack of a con bonus, and so the only way to make undead with a challenging number of hit points was to make it have a large number of hit dice , whic meant it was harder to turn, which was very frustrating for clerics, even thought they were low CR undead (just had a good number of hp), they were hard to turn - they talked about this problem being in the game design, well why not just introduce turning vulnerability?

So the amount of turning vulnerability the undead has was counted against its hit dice for when someone was trying to turn it?

For example it could work like, if a undead had a turning vulnerability of 3 , then for turning it was counted as if it had 3 less hit dice for the purpose of the turning effect.

Also I was thinking how would this turning Vulnerability adjust the CR of the undead.

I was thinking that for every point of Turning vulnerability that the monsters CR should decrease by 1/4 a point.

So if an undead usually had a CR of 10, but had been given by the DM a Turning Vulnerability of 5, then its new CR would be (8 and 1/4)

Tell me what you think, As myself, I’m not exactly sure how much it should ajust the CR, but tell me what you think :D
Rinian2
07-18-05, 11:54 AM It is an interesting idea, but why would you do it?

If you're going up against a really powerful undead why should it be turned like it was weaker?

The whole idea that level and luck participate in a successful turning works for me. Just giving a bonus to turn something doesn't add anything to the creature at all.

I'm pretty sure that there are items out there that give the divine character bonuses to turn out there, so what's the point of taking away these items usefulness?

On the whole, the idea is interesting but it seems flawed to me.

If your characters are not ready to tackle powerful undead, then the solution is simple; don't tackle them.
Rotipher
07-18-05, 12:02 PM It's more in keeping with the "flavor" of powerful undead if you compensate for their low hit points by giving them some kind of unnatural resiliance, not just more hit dice. Ghosts often rejuvenate themselves even after they've been defeated; liches can revive again and again if their phylacteries remain intact; vampires have the frustrating ability to go gaseous and escape, then return after they've healed with supernatural speed. If you want a powerful undead creature to keep going and going, take your inspiration from these classic monsters, and give it a special quality PCs will need to figure out how to defeat (like reconciling the dilemma than brought them back from the grave, or deducing a special vulnerability a la the old "Van Richten's Guides"), not just piles of hit points.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Paladin2004 07-18-05, 10:09 AM	I was reading a post early that talked about how undead didn't get many hit points because of the lack of a con bonus, and so the only way to make undead with a challenging number of hit points was to make it have a large number of hit dice , whic meant it was harder to turn, which was very frustrating for clerics, even thought they were low CR undead (just had a good number of hp), they were hard to turn - they talked about this problem being in the game design, well why not just introduce turning vulnerability? So the amount of turning vulnerability the undead has was counted against its hit dice for when someone was trying to turn it? For example it could work like, if a undead had a turning vulnerability of 3 , then for turning it was counted as if it had 3 less hit dice for the purpose of the turning effect. Also I was thinking how would this turning Vulnerability adjust the CR of the undead. I was thinking that for every point of Turning vulnerability that the monsters CR should decrease by 1/4 a point. So if an undead usually had a CR of 10, but had been given by the DM a Turning Vulnerability of 5, then its new CR would be (8 and 1/4) Tell me what you think, As myself, I’m not exactly sure how much it should ajust the CR, but tell me what you think :D
Rinian2 07-18-05, 11:54 AM	It is an interesting idea, but why would you do it? If you're going up against a really powerful undead why should it be turned like it was weaker? The whole idea that level and luck participate in a successful turning works for me. Just giving a bonus to turn something doesn't add anything to the creature at all. I'm pretty sure that there are items out there that give the divine character bonuses to turn out there, so what's the point of taking away these items usefulness? On the whole, the idea is interesting but it seems flawed to me. If your characters are not ready to tackle powerful undead, then the solution is simple; don't tackle them.
Rotipher 07-18-05, 12:02 PM	It's more in keeping with the "flavor" of powerful undead if you compensate for their low hit points by giving them some kind of unnatural resiliance, not just more hit dice. Ghosts often rejuvenate themselves even after they've been defeated; liches can revive again and again if their phylacteries remain intact; vampires have the frustrating ability to go gaseous and escape, then return after they've healed with supernatural speed. If you want a powerful undead creature to keep going and going, take your inspiration from these classic monsters, and give it a special quality PCs will need to figure out how to defeat (like reconciling the dilemma than brought them back from the grave, or deducing a special vulnerability a la the old "Van Richten's Guides"), not just piles of hit points.