Constrict "Automatic" Damage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Constrict "Automatic" Damage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheCrawlingSpleen
10-12-06, 06:29 PM In the Monster Manual it says that a creature with the Constrict (Ex) special attack "can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check...if the creature also has the improved grab ability, it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab."

In addition, the entry for pretty much anything with tentacles that constrict (Otyugh, Kraken, etc.) states that the creature "deals automatic tentacle damage with a successful grapple check." This leads me to ask:

1. What is "automatic" damage?

2. How is a monster using Constrict any different from a monster making a grapple check to damage its opponent or to attack with a natural weapon as per Player's Handbook p. 156?

:confused:

Any help would be appreciated.
Slagger the Chuul
10-12-06, 11:55 PM 1. What is "automatic" damage?

2. How is a monster using Constrict any different from a monster making a grapple check to damage its opponent or to attack with a natural weapon as per Player's Handbook p. 156?

"Automatic damage" simply means that the creature automatically deals the damage without having to make an additional attack roll or opposed check. In other words, the constricting creature deals constrict damage every time it makes a successful grapple check, even if it wasn't grappling in order to deal damage (for example, if a kraken made a grapple check to pin someone, it would still deal constriction damage).

As for the unarmed strike, page 156 of the Player's Handbook describes the damage dealt as "equivalent to an unarmed strike"; this is not the same as a natural weapon. An unarmed strike is a sort of baseline unarmed attack that is inferior to almost every natural attack out there. As listed in the table of weapons on page 116 of the Player's Handbook, the base unarmed strike damage of a Medium creature is 1d3 points of nonlethal damage, so a Gargantuan creature like the kraken would deal 1d8 points of nonlethal damage + half its Strength modifier (since an unarmed strike is considered a light weapon) or 1d8+6 points of nonlethal damage.

The constrict damage is in addition to this, so when a kraken chooses the "Damage Your Opponent" option in a grapple, it deals 1d8+6 points of nonlethal damage, plus 2d8+12 or 1d6+6 points of lethal damage (depending on whether it used a tentacle or an arm).

If the kraken wants to take a -4 penalty, it can convert the unarmed strike damage to lethal damage. Thanks to its size and constrict ability, "Damage Your Opponent" is a better grapple option for the kraken than "Attack Your Opponent". If the kraken decided to use A.Y.O., it would only deal natural weapon damage (instead of unarmed strike and constrict damage) and would have to use an attack roll, instead of a grapple check.

I hope that helps.
TheCrawlingSpleen
10-13-06, 01:16 AM I hope that helps.

Slagger, that was exactly what I needed to know. The MM is usually very good at explaining things, but sometimes I get confused.

Thanks again! :D
TheCrawlingSpleen
10-15-06, 11:17 PM Okay, so I had thought this issue resolved, but I had a stupid impulse, and foolishly looked for official word on constrict. The constrict bit was pretty much what Slagger said, but a new problem arose, as illustrated below.

"Monsters and Grappling

The rules don't say much about how monsters conduct grappling combat.

It's easiest, however, to allow a monster one grappling attack per natural weapon it has, provided that the natural weapon can hold on to the target in some fashion. The monster uses its listed grapple bonus when attacking with a primary natural weapon (or weapons) and its listed grapple bonus -5 for any secondary natural weapons. If the monster's grapple attack deals damage to a foe, the damage is lethal (unless the monster takes a -4 penalty to deal nonlethal damage) and equal to the damage rating for the natural weapon. For example, a troll grappling with a claw has a grapple bonus of +14 and deals 1d6+6 point of damage with the attack."

I put the bit above in bold.

So does that mean that a Kraken grappling a character can make nine grapple checks for damage (2 tentacles, 6 arms, 1 bite)? It seems a bit inconsistent, since a human has 2 arms but only makes 1 grapple check for damage. Besides, making 9 grapple checks would slow the game down just a tad, don't you think?
Insane Pixie
10-15-06, 11:22 PM To the multiple limbs for multiple grappling attempts thing: no, you can't do that. However, there are a few monstrous feats (see Savage Species) that allow that.

<EDIT> Okay, I was wrong there. But there are feats somewhere that allow what you're saying.
TheCrawlingSpleen
10-16-06, 12:40 AM To the multiple limbs for multiple grappling attempts thing: no, you can't do that. However, there are a few monstrous feats (see Savage Species) that allow that.

<EDIT> Okay, I was wrong there. But there are feats somewhere that allow what you're saying.

I just wanted to make it clear that the passage on multiple limbs for multiple grappling attempts thing was not my idea; blame Skip Williams. I have edited my last post to make it clearer that it was a quote. My question was: what the heck is the good Mr. Williams saying?
Slagger the Chuul
10-16-06, 04:47 AM My question was: what the heck is the good Mr. Williams saying?

Generally they say what they happen to think is a good idea; it's not always supported by the rules that are written in the books we get.

It's probably not game-breaking to allow the monster to use the damage of its natural attack (even if it's not what the core books say), but making one check per natural attack gets insane with some creatures, and making a large number of opposed rolls really slows the game down.

Just imagine the Rules of the Game suggestions with one of our worst possibilities, the giant squid. I'll attempt to represent just a little bit of the agony involved (for the players; we can safely assume the grappled character is in just a tiny bit of pain).

It goes a little something like this: the giant squid rolls a grapple check, the player rolls an opposing grapple check, the giant squid deals tentacle damage if it won, the giant squid also deals constrict damage if it won, the giant squid rolls a grapple check, the player rolls an opposing grapple check, the giant squid deals tentacle damage if it won, the giant squid also deals constrict damage if it won, the giant squid rolls a grapple check, the player rolls an opposing grapple check, the giant squid deals tentacle damage if it won, the giant squid also deals constrict damage if it won, the giant squid rolls a grapple check, the player rolls an opposing grapple check, the giant squid deals tentacle damage if it won, the giant squid also deals constrict damage if it won, the giant squid rolls a grapple check, the player rolls an opposing grapple check, the giant squid deals tentacle damage if it won, the giant squid also deals constrict damage if it won, the giant squid rolls a grapple check, the player rolls an opposing grapple check, the giant squid deals tentacle damage if it won, the giant squid also deals constrict damage if it won, the giant squid rolls a grapple check, the player rolls an opposing grapple check, the giant squid deals tentacle damage if it won, the giant squid also deals constrict damage if it won, the giant squid rolls a grapple check, the player rolls an opposing grapple check, the giant squid deals tentacle damage if it won, the giant squid also deals constrict damage if it won, the giant squid rolls a grapple check, the player rolls an opposing grapple check, the giant squid deals tentacle damage if it won, the giant squid also deals constrict damage if it won, the giant squid rolls a grapple check, the player rolls an opposing grapple check, the giant squid deals tentacle damage if it won, the giant squid also deals constrict damage if it won, the giant squid rolls a grapple check (with a -5 penalty), the player rolls an opposing grapple check, the giant squid deals bite damage if it won.

That's just one full round of grappling from the giant squid; next round (if the player survived the hit point damage and Intelligence drain) it can do it all over again.
TheCrawlingSpleen
10-16-06, 11:13 AM That's just one full round of grappling from the giant squid; next round (if the player survived the hit point damage and Intelligence drain) it can do it all over again.

:rofl: that's exactly what I figured would happen.
TheCrawlingSpleen
10-25-06, 09:55 PM Just in case anyone wanted to know, I think I've finally come to a conclusion on the whole "multiple grappling attempts for multiple natural weapons" issue. I think that the key is the phrase "multiple natural weapons." I figure that a creature like a giant squid doesn't make 11 grapple checks (God be praised!) but instead would make only 2 (one for the tentacles, and one at -5 for the beak). Interestingly enough, this actually lines up with the "extra grapple checks for extra attacks" concept presented by the Rules of the Game pages, since the squid has a BAB of +9, giving it 2 grapple checks (+9/+4). Admittedly, it doesn't always work that perfectly (a Kraken would get 4 grapple checks with its +20 BAB, but it only has 3 Nat. weapons) but I mean dang! Sometimes it's almost like those rules guys know what they're doing...:plotting:

I just thought that was interesting. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheCrawlingSpleen 10-12-06, 06:29 PM	In the Monster Manual it says that a creature with the Constrict (Ex) special attack "can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check...if the creature also has the improved grab ability, it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab." In addition, the entry for pretty much anything with tentacles that constrict (Otyugh, Kraken, etc.) states that the creature "deals automatic tentacle damage with a successful grapple check." This leads me to ask: 1. What is "automatic" damage? 2. How is a monster using Constrict any different from a monster making a grapple check to damage its opponent or to attack with a natural weapon as per Player's Handbook p. 156? :confused: Any help would be appreciated.
Slagger the Chuul 10-12-06, 11:55 PM	1. What is "automatic" damage? 2. How is a monster using Constrict any different from a monster making a grapple check to damage its opponent or to attack with a natural weapon as per Player's Handbook p. 156? "Automatic damage" simply means that the creature automatically deals the damage without having to make an additional attack roll or opposed check. In other words, the constricting creature deals constrict damage every time it makes a successful grapple check, even if it wasn't grappling in order to deal damage (for example, if a kraken made a grapple check to pin someone, it would still deal constriction damage). As for the unarmed strike, page 156 of the Player's Handbook describes the damage dealt as "equivalent to an unarmed strike"; this is not the same as a natural weapon. An unarmed strike is a sort of baseline unarmed attack that is inferior to almost every natural attack out there. As listed in the table of weapons on page 116 of the Player's Handbook, the base unarmed strike damage of a Medium creature is 1d3 points of nonlethal damage, so a Gargantuan creature like the kraken would deal 1d8 points of nonlethal damage + half its Strength modifier (since an unarmed strike is considered a light weapon) or 1d8+6 points of nonlethal damage. The constrict damage is in addition to this, so when a kraken chooses the "Damage Your Opponent" option in a grapple, it deals 1d8+6 points of nonlethal damage, plus 2d8+12 or 1d6+6 points of lethal damage (depending on whether it used a tentacle or an arm). If the kraken wants to take a -4 penalty, it can convert the unarmed strike damage to lethal damage. Thanks to its size and constrict ability, "Damage Your Opponent" is a better grapple option for the kraken than "Attack Your Opponent". If the kraken decided to use A.Y.O., it would only deal natural weapon damage (instead of unarmed strike and constrict damage) and would have to use an attack roll, instead of a grapple check. I hope that helps.
TheCrawlingSpleen 10-13-06, 01:16 AM	I hope that helps. Slagger, that was exactly what I needed to know. The MM is usually very good at explaining things, but sometimes I get confused. Thanks again! :D
TheCrawlingSpleen 10-15-06, 11:17 PM	Okay, so I had thought this issue resolved, but I had a stupid impulse, and foolishly looked for official word on constrict. The constrict bit was pretty much what Slagger said, but a new problem arose, as illustrated below. "Monsters and Grappling The rules don't say much about how monsters conduct grappling combat. It's easiest, however, to allow a monster one grappling attack per natural weapon it has, provided that the natural weapon can hold on to the target in some fashion. The monster uses its listed grapple bonus when attacking with a primary natural weapon (or weapons) and its listed grapple bonus -5 for any secondary natural weapons. If the monster's grapple attack deals damage to a foe, the damage is lethal (unless the monster takes a -4 penalty to deal nonlethal damage) and equal to the damage rating for the natural weapon. For example, a troll grappling with a claw has a grapple bonus of +14 and deals 1d6+6 point of damage with the attack." I put the bit above in bold. So does that mean that a Kraken grappling a character can make nine grapple checks for damage (2 tentacles, 6 arms, 1 bite)? It seems a bit inconsistent, since a human has 2 arms but only makes 1 grapple check for damage. Besides, making 9 grapple checks would slow the game down just a tad, don't you think?
Insane Pixie 10-15-06, 11:22 PM	To the multiple limbs for multiple grappling attempts thing: no, you can't do that. However, there are a few monstrous feats (see Savage Species) that allow that. <EDIT> Okay, I was wrong there. But there are feats somewhere that allow what you're saying.
TheCrawlingSpleen 10-16-06, 12:40 AM	To the multiple limbs for multiple grappling attempts thing: no, you can't do that. However, there are a few monstrous feats (see Savage Species) that allow that. <EDIT> Okay, I was wrong there. But there are feats somewhere that allow what you're saying. I just wanted to make it clear that the passage on multiple limbs for multiple grappling attempts thing was not my idea; blame Skip Williams. I have edited my last post to make it clearer that it was a quote. My question was: what the heck is the good Mr. Williams saying?
Slagger the Chuul 10-16-06, 04:47 AM	My question was: what the heck is the good Mr. Williams saying? Generally they say what they happen to think is a good idea; it's not always supported by the rules that are written in the books we get. It's probably not game-breaking to allow the monster to use the damage of its natural attack (even if it's not what the core books say), but making one check per natural attack gets insane with some creatures, and making a large number of opposed rolls really slows the game down. Just imagine the Rules of the Game suggestions with one of our worst possibilities, the giant squid. I'll attempt to represent just a little bit of the agony involved (for the players; we can safely assume the grappled character is in just a tiny bit of pain). It goes a little something like this: the giant squid rolls a grapple check, the player rolls an opposing grapple check, the giant squid deals tentacle damage if it won, the giant squid also deals constrict damage if it won, the giant squid rolls a grapple check, the player rolls an opposing grapple check, the giant squid deals tentacle damage if it won, the giant squid also deals constrict damage if it won, the giant squid rolls a grapple check, the player rolls an opposing grapple check, the giant squid deals tentacle damage if it won, the giant squid also deals constrict damage if it won, the giant squid rolls a grapple check, the player rolls an opposing grapple check, the giant squid deals tentacle damage if it won, the giant squid also deals constrict damage if it won, the giant squid rolls a grapple check, the player rolls an opposing grapple check, the giant squid deals tentacle damage if it won, the giant squid also deals constrict damage if it won, the giant squid rolls a grapple check, the player rolls an opposing grapple check, the giant squid deals tentacle damage if it won, the giant squid also deals constrict damage if it won, the giant squid rolls a grapple check, the player rolls an opposing grapple check, the giant squid deals tentacle damage if it won, the giant squid also deals constrict damage if it won, the giant squid rolls a grapple check, the player rolls an opposing grapple check, the giant squid deals tentacle damage if it won, the giant squid also deals constrict damage if it won, the giant squid rolls a grapple check, the player rolls an opposing grapple check, the giant squid deals tentacle damage if it won, the giant squid also deals constrict damage if it won, the giant squid rolls a grapple check, the player rolls an opposing grapple check, the giant squid deals tentacle damage if it won, the giant squid also deals constrict damage if it won, the giant squid rolls a grapple check (with a -5 penalty), the player rolls an opposing grapple check, the giant squid deals bite damage if it won. That's just one full round of grappling from the giant squid; next round (if the player survived the hit point damage and Intelligence drain) it can do it all over again.
TheCrawlingSpleen 10-16-06, 11:13 AM	That's just one full round of grappling from the giant squid; next round (if the player survived the hit point damage and Intelligence drain) it can do it all over again. :rofl: that's exactly what I figured would happen.
TheCrawlingSpleen 10-25-06, 09:55 PM	Just in case anyone wanted to know, I think I've finally come to a conclusion on the whole "multiple grappling attempts for multiple natural weapons" issue. I think that the key is the phrase "multiple natural weapons." I figure that a creature like a giant squid doesn't make 11 grapple checks (God be praised!) but instead would make only 2 (one for the tentacles, and one at -5 for the beak). Interestingly enough, this actually lines up with the "extra grapple checks for extra attacks" concept presented by the Rules of the Game pages, since the squid has a BAB of +9, giving it 2 grapple checks (+9/+4). Admittedly, it doesn't always work that perfectly (a Kraken would get 4 grapple checks with its +20 BAB, but it only has 3 Nat. weapons) but I mean dang! Sometimes it's almost like those rules guys know what they're doing...:plotting: I just thought that was interesting. :)