Constructs and Charisma [Archive] - Wizards Community

Constructs and Charisma [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Titan W
10-18-06, 05:23 PM I was reading through the monster manual and I noticed that constructs use INT as a non-ability (Being mindless) however have Wisdom and Charisma as normal abilities (albeit charisma is usually a 1). Now by the description of constructs it would seem to me that constructs would have INT as an ability and charisma as the non-ability as it would seem that when making a construct a wizard or other spellcaster might value its ability to process information and know things about what it is doing. I could understand quickie constructs like Animated Objects to have low INT as they are really just tools, however if a caster was to invest the resources into an Iron Golem, it would seem they would make it have at least some intelligence, and skills, however no sense of self (and thus be a creature with skill but no desire to have its own will or value of its own existence).

I was wondering what others' opinions on this were.
Insane Pixie
10-18-06, 05:30 PM Most constructs are mindless, controlled by their creator. Aka, Intelligence as a non-ability.

Charisma is 1 because constructs have no force of personality. Or, hell, a personality at all.

Intelligence also means a degree of free will. I don't want to spend obscene amounts of gold and xp on an Iron Golem for it to one day tell me that it's decided to leave my service. What's a mage going to do? Can't use magic.
Talisman
10-18-06, 05:59 PM Mindless constructs are essentially robots, and we all know what happens when robots start thinking for themselves. They're programmed to follow orders, and show absolutely no initiative on their own.

Rules-wise, Wis measures a creature's perception of the world around it, and Cha measures its sense of self/force of personality. The two together represent awareness. Objects, by definition, do not have have Wis or Cha--they are not aware. Constructs are creatures, and therefore have the dimmest, slightest hint of awareness of themselves and existing. The old "I think, therefore I am."
Slagger the Chuul
10-19-06, 04:25 AM To quote from the SRD on mental ability scores (and nonability scores):

Charisma
Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.

Without a Charisma score, the golem wouldn't even be capable of recognizing the difference between itself and any other creature; it wouldn't be able to recognize a creator that could give it instructions, or even tell that it has a body which it can control to carry out those instructions.

If an insanse wizard (wow, aren't there a lot of them) somehow created a golem with Wisdom, but no Charisma score, it would just stand there watching whatever it happened to be facing. Even if it had an Intelligence score to rival the gods (admittedly not hard for some gods), it would have no desire to act or even think about the things at which it was looking.
AntiDjinn
10-19-06, 05:17 AM If you can't distinguish self from non-self then you can't even determine that there is a "you" and a separate "everything else." It would be very hard for even robots to act if they don't know they exist as a distinct being in the cosmos. How would one know that an order given by its creator didn't just pop up as a glitch in its own perception? How can it even follow a simple order of "Get up and walk over there" when it can't perceive the boundaries of its own body or understand that it can interact with things other than itself?
ZeronHitaro
10-19-06, 02:30 PM IMO: Wisdom = Abililty to carry out specific orders.

Low Wis. = Orders like "Go over there."

High Wis. = Orders like "Travel forward 40 ft., duck down, and jump to the left."
Slagger the Chuul
10-19-06, 07:24 PM High Wis. = Orders like "Travel forward 40 ft., duck down, and jump to the left."

And at what point do they do the time warp?
ZeronHitaro
10-19-06, 08:30 PM :P I was just trying to make an example of a similar command only with the high wisdom one being more complex in nature. Hence forth more difficult to carry out. You don't tell your dog "Go out 30 yards and bring back that green ball." you give him a simplier, more broad command: "Fetch!".

To illustrate the Pros of the more complex command:

Situation:
-30 yards away
-2 Balls, one bigger than the other, one green one blue
-2 sticks
-all within 2 feet of each other

Low Wisdom = Less complex commands must be used

Using "Fetch": Odds are that any one of those items will be brought back.

High Wisdom= You can be more specific with your orders

Using "Go out 30 yards and bring back that small green ball": You will get the specific item you requested for.
Slagger the Chuul
10-20-06, 02:28 AM :P I was just trying to make an example of a similar command only with the high wisdom one being more complex in nature. Hence forth more difficult to carry out. You don't tell your dog "Go out 30 yards and bring back that green ball." you give him a simplier, more broad command: "Fetch!".

Back to being serious for a moment, I don't think that's the province of Wisdom. After all, dogs have a higher Wisdom score than humans in D&D.
ZeronHitaro
10-20-06, 12:02 PM Well, then, "being serious" what do you suggest is the stat that influences how advanced of programming that a golem can follow? :P Intellegence is out of the question.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
10-20-06, 12:43 PM Back to being serious for a moment, I don't think that's the province of Wisdom. After all, dogs have a higher Wisdom score than humans in D&D.
They probably do in real life. Ever tried the ball trick, where you have a ball in your hand and pretend to throw it, but don't let go? In my experience, dogs figure out that the ball never left your hand faster than people.
Slagger the Chuul
10-21-06, 02:14 AM Well, then, "being serious" what do you suggest is the stat that influences how advanced of programming that a golem can follow? :P Intellegence is out of the question.

The more limited ability of a dog is about it understanding your language, not its mental ability to do as you say. The golem has no real intellect, but it can understand language and follow commands that are reasonably straightforward, like "kill those adventurers".

The golem won't be able to do it in a smart way, of course; it's basically capable, but it doesn't have the power of true intelligence to think deductively. Here's an example of its lack of deductive ability:

The golem is standing in a room, with the only other feature inside being an overturned table in the corner. Its master has commanded it to kill anyone who enters unless they say a password.

Some adventurers enter and the doors slam and lock (it's a magic room :P ), forcing them to fight. Since the golem quickly turns out to be too tough, their party cleric casts obscuring mist and they all take cover behind the overturned table. Here's where the limits of the golem's non-Intelligence come into play. Because it only saw them where they were last standing, it doesn't know where they went, and it isn't smart enough to realize that behind the table is the only place they could have gone.

Because the golem can't think deductively, it literally can't put two and two together to work something out. It's only capable of dealing with exactly what it knows by direct observation; it can't combine an idea like "missing adventurers" with "table that could hide adventurers" to do its job. Of course, the instant they reappear, it will attack again, but they could pull the same trick a hundred times, and it would never learn any better.
ZeronHitaro
10-21-06, 11:05 AM The more limited ability of a dog is about it understanding your language, not its mental ability to do as you say. The golem has no real intellect, but it can understand language and follow commands that are reasonably straightforward, like "kill those adventurers".

The golem won't be able to do it in a smart way, of course; it's basically capable, but it doesn't have the power of true intelligence to think deductively. Here's an example of its lack of deductive ability:

The golem is standing in a room, with the only other feature inside being an overturned table in the corner. Its master has commanded it to kill anyone who enters unless they say a password.

Some adventurers enter and the doors slam and lock (it's a magic room :P ), forcing them to fight. Since the golem quickly turns out to be too tough, their party cleric casts obscuring mist and they all take cover behind the overturned table. Here's where the limits of the golem's non-Intelligence come into play. Because it only saw them where they were last standing, it doesn't know where they went, and it isn't smart enough to realize that behind the table is the only place they could have gone.

Because the golem can't think deductively, it literally can't put two and two together to work something out. It's only capable of dealing with exactly what it knows by direct observation; it can't combine an idea like "missing adventurers" with "table that could hide adventurers" to do its job. Of course, the instant they reappear, it will attack again, but they could pull the same trick a hundred times, and it would never learn any better.

You're talking about the ability to think for itself, that's not what I'm refering to. I'm refering to it's ability to analyze and carry out an order given. The golem doesn't have to have the "brain power" to do things in a "smart way" anyhow. Look at robots we have today (closest comparison). They can be given programming orders to do things the "smart way".

Example: Going from Point A to Point B

Low Wisdom Programming: Going in a straight line, unaware of a large pothole and gets itself flipped over.

High Wisdom Programming: Detects pothole, goes around it and makes it to Point B.

Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition.

By RAW (at least according to how WOTC designed Constructs), you do not need an Intellegence score to follow a given order. And by RAW, you can be litterally as dumb as a rock and still be aware of what's going on around you. So using your scenario and my Wisdom theory.

Golem's Creator: Standing on top of golem, seems the whole thing and spots the PCs hiding.

Low Wisdom Command options: Smash everything in that *indicatied where the PCs ducked* direction golem!

High Wisdom Command options: They're behind that table! Get them!

For an analogy, think of Wisdom for Golems like versions of Windows.

Wisdom Score that is low = Windows 95.

Wisdom Score that is high = Windows XP

Same basic programming, however XP has the potential to outperform the 95 version.
Slagger the Chuul
10-22-06, 12:19 AM High Wisdom Command options: They're behind that table! Get them!

Well, you could phrase that slightly differently for a construct with lower Wisdom, such as: "Kill the creatures behind that table".
ZeronHitaro
10-22-06, 03:17 PM Well, you could phrase that slightly differently for a construct with lower Wisdom, such as: "Kill the creatures behind that table".
Maybe and maybe not. This goes back to my core arguement of Wisdom affecting what orders the Golem can and cannot follow. For another computer analogy and human analogy, I shall go into a minor speal for a moment. And just so you don't get confused, I'm treating the command in a poor imitation of the old MS-DOS run computers.

Golem- Wisdom 5

Order: "Kill the creatures behind that table"

Result:

(Inside Golem's "Brain"):
Command:C:Golem95.exe
C:Golem95.exe/Killthecreaturesbehindthattable
.
.
.
Fatal Error:
Abort,Retry,Fail?

At such low wisdom scores, the golem does not have enough perception and intution to be able to understand such an order. Hence why simpler ones like "Smash anything in that direction" are easier to follow as it's less specific.

Golem- Wisdom 10

Order: "Kill the creatures behind that table"

Result:

(Inside Golem's "Brain"):
Command:C:Golem98.exe
C:Golem98.exe/Killthecreaturesbehindthattable
.
.
.
Loading: Execute Command

In this case, the wisdom is high enough for the command to be understood. However this is where my "Human" analogy comes in. 10 Wisdom is about average human wisdom.

Example: A human after just waking up probably has a very low (if nearly non-existant) INT temp. score due to groggyness. Think about when you first wake up. Pretty much by instinct you stumble to where ever you're going in the mornings. (In my case, the bathroom) Due to have little/no INT score, you fail checks (Yes, nerd moment) to remember you stacked a few boxes in the hallway. Your Wisdom score is not high enough to be unconciously aware of them, hence you stub your toe and utter cursing. This is similar in what you were saying earlier to adventures being able to "trick" the Golem.

Golem- Wisdom 15

Order: "Kill the creatures behind that table"

Result:

(Inside Golem's "Brain"):
Command:C:GolemXP.exe
C:GolemXP.exe/Killthecreaturesbehindthattable
.
.
Command Approved: Now Executing

There is one key difference between this Golem and the last Golem. His higher wisdom score allows for greater perception of the environment and greater intution.

Example: This golem would be aware of a Grease spell placed before him as it is a sudden change in the environment, and therefore would have the intuition to go around it in order to carry out it's objective.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Titan W 10-18-06, 05:23 PM	I was reading through the monster manual and I noticed that constructs use INT as a non-ability (Being mindless) however have Wisdom and Charisma as normal abilities (albeit charisma is usually a 1). Now by the description of constructs it would seem to me that constructs would have INT as an ability and charisma as the non-ability as it would seem that when making a construct a wizard or other spellcaster might value its ability to process information and know things about what it is doing. I could understand quickie constructs like Animated Objects to have low INT as they are really just tools, however if a caster was to invest the resources into an Iron Golem, it would seem they would make it have at least some intelligence, and skills, however no sense of self (and thus be a creature with skill but no desire to have its own will or value of its own existence). I was wondering what others' opinions on this were.
Insane Pixie 10-18-06, 05:30 PM	Most constructs are mindless, controlled by their creator. Aka, Intelligence as a non-ability. Charisma is 1 because constructs have no force of personality. Or, hell, a personality at all. Intelligence also means a degree of free will. I don't want to spend obscene amounts of gold and xp on an Iron Golem for it to one day tell me that it's decided to leave my service. What's a mage going to do? Can't use magic.
Talisman 10-18-06, 05:59 PM	Mindless constructs are essentially robots, and we all know what happens when robots start thinking for themselves. They're programmed to follow orders, and show absolutely no initiative on their own. Rules-wise, Wis measures a creature's perception of the world around it, and Cha measures its sense of self/force of personality. The two together represent awareness. Objects, by definition, do not have have Wis or Cha--they are not aware. Constructs are creatures, and therefore have the dimmest, slightest hint of awareness of themselves and existing. The old "I think, therefore I am."
Slagger the Chuul 10-19-06, 04:25 AM	To quote from the SRD on mental ability scores (and nonability scores): Charisma Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score. Without a Charisma score, the golem wouldn't even be capable of recognizing the difference between itself and any other creature; it wouldn't be able to recognize a creator that could give it instructions, or even tell that it has a body which it can control to carry out those instructions. If an insanse wizard (wow, aren't there a lot of them) somehow created a golem with Wisdom, but no Charisma score, it would just stand there watching whatever it happened to be facing. Even if it had an Intelligence score to rival the gods (admittedly not hard for some gods), it would have no desire to act or even think about the things at which it was looking.
AntiDjinn 10-19-06, 05:17 AM	If you can't distinguish self from non-self then you can't even determine that there is a "you" and a separate "everything else." It would be very hard for even robots to act if they don't know they exist as a distinct being in the cosmos. How would one know that an order given by its creator didn't just pop up as a glitch in its own perception? How can it even follow a simple order of "Get up and walk over there" when it can't perceive the boundaries of its own body or understand that it can interact with things other than itself?
ZeronHitaro 10-19-06, 02:30 PM	IMO: Wisdom = Abililty to carry out specific orders. Low Wis. = Orders like "Go over there." High Wis. = Orders like "Travel forward 40 ft., duck down, and jump to the left."
Slagger the Chuul 10-19-06, 07:24 PM	High Wis. = Orders like "Travel forward 40 ft., duck down, and jump to the left." And at what point do they do the time warp?
ZeronHitaro 10-19-06, 08:30 PM	:P I was just trying to make an example of a similar command only with the high wisdom one being more complex in nature. Hence forth more difficult to carry out. You don't tell your dog "Go out 30 yards and bring back that green ball." you give him a simplier, more broad command: "Fetch!". To illustrate the Pros of the more complex command: Situation: -30 yards away -2 Balls, one bigger than the other, one green one blue -2 sticks -all within 2 feet of each other Low Wisdom = Less complex commands must be used Using "Fetch": Odds are that any one of those items will be brought back. High Wisdom= You can be more specific with your orders Using "Go out 30 yards and bring back that small green ball": You will get the specific item you requested for.
Slagger the Chuul 10-20-06, 02:28 AM	:P I was just trying to make an example of a similar command only with the high wisdom one being more complex in nature. Hence forth more difficult to carry out. You don't tell your dog "Go out 30 yards and bring back that green ball." you give him a simplier, more broad command: "Fetch!". Back to being serious for a moment, I don't think that's the province of Wisdom. After all, dogs have a higher Wisdom score than humans in D&D.
ZeronHitaro 10-20-06, 12:02 PM	Well, then, "being serious" what do you suggest is the stat that influences how advanced of programming that a golem can follow? :P Intellegence is out of the question.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 10-20-06, 12:43 PM	Back to being serious for a moment, I don't think that's the province of Wisdom. After all, dogs have a higher Wisdom score than humans in D&D. They probably do in real life. Ever tried the ball trick, where you have a ball in your hand and pretend to throw it, but don't let go? In my experience, dogs figure out that the ball never left your hand faster than people.
Slagger the Chuul 10-21-06, 02:14 AM	Well, then, "being serious" what do you suggest is the stat that influences how advanced of programming that a golem can follow? :P Intellegence is out of the question. The more limited ability of a dog is about it understanding your language, not its mental ability to do as you say. The golem has no real intellect, but it can understand language and follow commands that are reasonably straightforward, like "kill those adventurers". The golem won't be able to do it in a smart way, of course; it's basically capable, but it doesn't have the power of true intelligence to think deductively. Here's an example of its lack of deductive ability: The golem is standing in a room, with the only other feature inside being an overturned table in the corner. Its master has commanded it to kill anyone who enters unless they say a password. Some adventurers enter and the doors slam and lock (it's a magic room :P ), forcing them to fight. Since the golem quickly turns out to be too tough, their party cleric casts obscuring mist and they all take cover behind the overturned table. Here's where the limits of the golem's non-Intelligence come into play. Because it only saw them where they were last standing, it doesn't know where they went, and it isn't smart enough to realize that behind the table is the only place they could have gone. Because the golem can't think deductively, it literally can't put two and two together to work something out. It's only capable of dealing with exactly what it knows by direct observation; it can't combine an idea like "missing adventurers" with "table that could hide adventurers" to do its job. Of course, the instant they reappear, it will attack again, but they could pull the same trick a hundred times, and it would never learn any better.
ZeronHitaro 10-21-06, 11:05 AM	The more limited ability of a dog is about it understanding your language, not its mental ability to do as you say. The golem has no real intellect, but it can understand language and follow commands that are reasonably straightforward, like "kill those adventurers". The golem won't be able to do it in a smart way, of course; it's basically capable, but it doesn't have the power of true intelligence to think deductively. Here's an example of its lack of deductive ability: The golem is standing in a room, with the only other feature inside being an overturned table in the corner. Its master has commanded it to kill anyone who enters unless they say a password. Some adventurers enter and the doors slam and lock (it's a magic room :P ), forcing them to fight. Since the golem quickly turns out to be too tough, their party cleric casts obscuring mist and they all take cover behind the overturned table. Here's where the limits of the golem's non-Intelligence come into play. Because it only saw them where they were last standing, it doesn't know where they went, and it isn't smart enough to realize that behind the table is the only place they could have gone. Because the golem can't think deductively, it literally can't put two and two together to work something out. It's only capable of dealing with exactly what it knows by direct observation; it can't combine an idea like "missing adventurers" with "table that could hide adventurers" to do its job. Of course, the instant they reappear, it will attack again, but they could pull the same trick a hundred times, and it would never learn any better. You're talking about the ability to think for itself, that's not what I'm refering to. I'm refering to it's ability to analyze and carry out an order given. The golem doesn't have to have the "brain power" to do things in a "smart way" anyhow. Look at robots we have today (closest comparison). They can be given programming orders to do things the "smart way". Example: Going from Point A to Point B Low Wisdom Programming: Going in a straight line, unaware of a large pothole and gets itself flipped over. High Wisdom Programming: Detects pothole, goes around it and makes it to Point B. Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. By RAW (at least according to how WOTC designed Constructs), you do not need an Intellegence score to follow a given order. And by RAW, you can be litterally as dumb as a rock and still be aware of what's going on around you. So using your scenario and my Wisdom theory. Golem's Creator: Standing on top of golem, seems the whole thing and spots the PCs hiding. Low Wisdom Command options: Smash everything in that indicatied where the PCs ducked direction golem! High Wisdom Command options: They're behind that table! Get them! For an analogy, think of Wisdom for Golems like versions of Windows. Wisdom Score that is low = Windows 95. Wisdom Score that is high = Windows XP Same basic programming, however XP has the potential to outperform the 95 version.
Slagger the Chuul 10-22-06, 12:19 AM	High Wisdom Command options: They're behind that table! Get them! Well, you could phrase that slightly differently for a construct with lower Wisdom, such as: "Kill the creatures behind that table".
ZeronHitaro 10-22-06, 03:17 PM	Well, you could phrase that slightly differently for a construct with lower Wisdom, such as: "Kill the creatures behind that table". Maybe and maybe not. This goes back to my core arguement of Wisdom affecting what orders the Golem can and cannot follow. For another computer analogy and human analogy, I shall go into a minor speal for a moment. And just so you don't get confused, I'm treating the command in a poor imitation of the old MS-DOS run computers. Golem- Wisdom 5 Order: "Kill the creatures behind that table" Result: (Inside Golem's "Brain"): Command:C:Golem95.exe C:Golem95.exe/Killthecreaturesbehindthattable . . . Fatal Error: Abort,Retry,Fail? At such low wisdom scores, the golem does not have enough perception and intution to be able to understand such an order. Hence why simpler ones like "Smash anything in that direction" are easier to follow as it's less specific. Golem- Wisdom 10 Order: "Kill the creatures behind that table" Result: (Inside Golem's "Brain"): Command:C:Golem98.exe C:Golem98.exe/Killthecreaturesbehindthattable . . . Loading: Execute Command In this case, the wisdom is high enough for the command to be understood. However this is where my "Human" analogy comes in. 10 Wisdom is about average human wisdom. Example: A human after just waking up probably has a very low (if nearly non-existant) INT temp. score due to groggyness. Think about when you first wake up. Pretty much by instinct you stumble to where ever you're going in the mornings. (In my case, the bathroom) Due to have little/no INT score, you fail checks (Yes, nerd moment) to remember you stacked a few boxes in the hallway. Your Wisdom score is not high enough to be unconciously aware of them, hence you stub your toe and utter cursing. This is similar in what you were saying earlier to adventures being able to "trick" the Golem. Golem- Wisdom 15 Order: "Kill the creatures behind that table" Result: (Inside Golem's "Brain"): Command:C:GolemXP.exe C:GolemXP.exe/Killthecreaturesbehindthattable . . Command Approved: Now Executing There is one key difference between this Golem and the last Golem. His higher wisdom score allows for greater perception of the environment and greater intution. Example: This golem would be aware of a Grease spell placed before him as it is a sudden change in the environment, and therefore would have the intuition to go around it in order to carry out it's objective.