Contradictory Info on Abishai in FCII? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Contradictory Info on Abishai in FCII? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
420
04-09-07, 04:31 PM From the Fiendish Codex II:

Exceptions to the Normal Advancement Track (pg. 11)
Abishai, the devilish, draconic spawn of Tiamat, advance on their own track. They begin as lemures, then progress to white abishai, then black abishai, then green, blue, and finally red. In theory, a red abishai can earn promotion to chain devil, then continue on the standard advancement path, but in reality, almost none ever depart from the abishai hierarchy.

Advanced Abishai (pg. 111)
Some scholars mistakingly believe that all abishais begin life as white and change color to black, green, blue, and red as they age. In truth, each variety of abishai is a distinct kind of creature, and those that advance in station become something else entirely (typically barbazu).

So which is it? Do they advance within the abishai track or not? If not do they don't, do they advance to chain devils (kytons) or bearded devils (barbazu).

-420
Naderion
04-10-07, 06:50 AM The first doesn't make sense. Chain Devils are no Baatezu and so are not part of the baatezu progression-chain. They are just living on the same plane like Barghests in Gehenna or Nightmares in Hades,

Both FC1 and FC2 completely ignore anything that was in 2nd Ed. It's just designed to look cool to unknowing new players and allow to create more and more creatures that can be published in books for selling.

In Planescape, there were only 13 types of Baatezu with a clear (but complicated) order of progression and lawfull as the Baatezu are, it's virtually impossible to change that. Of course there may be an infinite number of other devils in the nine hells, just like the Kytons or Bezekiras, but they are not of the baatezu race. In this old hierarchy, Gelugons and Amnizus were actually more powerfull than cornugons and there were only three kinds of abishai, not five.
Witch
04-10-07, 10:37 AM From the Fiendish Codex II:

Exceptions to the Normal Advancement Track (pg. 11)

Advanced Abishai (pg. 111)

So which is it? Do they advance within the abishai track or not? If not do they don't, do they advance to chain devils (kytons) or bearded devils (barbazu).

-420
Have you considered the possibility that this is a voluntary contradiction, allowing you to make your own choice?
420
04-10-07, 01:10 PM The first doesn't make sense. Chain Devils are no Baatezu and so are not part of the baatezu progression-chain.
I didn't even consider that but you're right. Seems odd that the Infernal Advancement Path table (pg. 10) lists Imps and Chain Devils. Neither of which are Baatezu. Very strange.

Have you considered the possibility that this is a voluntary contradiction, allowing you to make your own choice?

I did consider that until I cracked open the Monsters of Faerūn and discovered that the quote from the Abishai description in FCII is actually a hacked up version the MoF (pg. 13):
Some human scholars believe that abishais move up the hierarchy of minor devils, starting as white abishai, becoming black, then green, blue, and finally red. These scholars are mistaken: Abishais have no hope than the rest of Baator's inhabitants and glory in opportunities to take their pain out on mortals.
So someone just cut and paste the description from MoF, changed the wording a bit in the first sentence and rewrote the part about devils not advancing.

Maybe I'll make my Abishai just as confused about their own situation as the FCII seems to be. After all, all that red tape and bureaucracy has got to confuse even the mightiest fiends on occasion.

-420
Witch
04-11-07, 06:11 AM I didn't even consider that but you're right. Seems odd that the Infernal Advancement Path table (pg. 10) lists Imps and Chain Devils. Neither of which are Baatezu. Very strange.
It's 3.5E revisionism. I don't hold anything against revisionism on itself, but it needs to make sense. At the moment, it doesn't, so I suggest you either alter it or ignore it :)

So someone just cut and paste the description from MoF, changed the wording a bit in the first sentence and rewrote the part about devils not advancing.
Ah.

Maybe I'll make my Abishai just as confused about their own situation as the FCII seems to be. After all, all that red tape and bureaucracy has got to confuse even the mightiest fiends on occasion.
But I doubt they'd be confused to the point where they didn't know what they got promoted to :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
420 04-09-07, 04:31 PM	From the Fiendish Codex II: Exceptions to the Normal Advancement Track (pg. 11) Abishai, the devilish, draconic spawn of Tiamat, advance on their own track. They begin as lemures, then progress to white abishai, then black abishai, then green, blue, and finally red. In theory, a red abishai can earn promotion to chain devil, then continue on the standard advancement path, but in reality, almost none ever depart from the abishai hierarchy. Advanced Abishai (pg. 111) Some scholars mistakingly believe that all abishais begin life as white and change color to black, green, blue, and red as they age. In truth, each variety of abishai is a distinct kind of creature, and those that advance in station become something else entirely (typically barbazu). So which is it? Do they advance within the abishai track or not? If not do they don't, do they advance to chain devils (kytons) or bearded devils (barbazu). -420
Naderion 04-10-07, 06:50 AM	The first doesn't make sense. Chain Devils are no Baatezu and so are not part of the baatezu progression-chain. They are just living on the same plane like Barghests in Gehenna or Nightmares in Hades, Both FC1 and FC2 completely ignore anything that was in 2nd Ed. It's just designed to look cool to unknowing new players and allow to create more and more creatures that can be published in books for selling. In Planescape, there were only 13 types of Baatezu with a clear (but complicated) order of progression and lawfull as the Baatezu are, it's virtually impossible to change that. Of course there may be an infinite number of other devils in the nine hells, just like the Kytons or Bezekiras, but they are not of the baatezu race. In this old hierarchy, Gelugons and Amnizus were actually more powerfull than cornugons and there were only three kinds of abishai, not five.
Witch 04-10-07, 10:37 AM	From the Fiendish Codex II: Exceptions to the Normal Advancement Track (pg. 11) Advanced Abishai (pg. 111) So which is it? Do they advance within the abishai track or not? If not do they don't, do they advance to chain devils (kytons) or bearded devils (barbazu). -420 Have you considered the possibility that this is a voluntary contradiction, allowing you to make your own choice?
420 04-10-07, 01:10 PM	The first doesn't make sense. Chain Devils are no Baatezu and so are not part of the baatezu progression-chain. I didn't even consider that but you're right. Seems odd that the Infernal Advancement Path table (pg. 10) lists Imps and Chain Devils. Neither of which are Baatezu. Very strange. Have you considered the possibility that this is a voluntary contradiction, allowing you to make your own choice? I did consider that until I cracked open the Monsters of Faerūn and discovered that the quote from the Abishai description in FCII is actually a hacked up version the MoF (pg. 13): Some human scholars believe that abishais move up the hierarchy of minor devils, starting as white abishai, becoming black, then green, blue, and finally red. These scholars are mistaken: Abishais have no hope than the rest of Baator's inhabitants and glory in opportunities to take their pain out on mortals. So someone just cut and paste the description from MoF, changed the wording a bit in the first sentence and rewrote the part about devils not advancing. Maybe I'll make my Abishai just as confused about their own situation as the FCII seems to be. After all, all that red tape and bureaucracy has got to confuse even the mightiest fiends on occasion. -420
Witch 04-11-07, 06:11 AM	I didn't even consider that but you're right. Seems odd that the Infernal Advancement Path table (pg. 10) lists Imps and Chain Devils. Neither of which are Baatezu. Very strange. It's 3.5E revisionism. I don't hold anything against revisionism on itself, but it needs to make sense. At the moment, it doesn't, so I suggest you either alter it or ignore it :) So someone just cut and paste the description from MoF, changed the wording a bit in the first sentence and rewrote the part about devils not advancing. Ah. Maybe I'll make my Abishai just as confused about their own situation as the FCII seems to be. After all, all that red tape and bureaucracy has got to confuse even the mightiest fiends on occasion. But I doubt they'd be confused to the point where they didn't know what they got promoted to :)