Copper dragon advice [Archive] - Wizards Community

Copper dragon advice [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mordor11
11-06-06, 12:32 PM Hail and well met

Myself and the group I am currently planning in will likely be entering a "Council of Wyms" type of quest.

In this enterprise, I am choosing to roleplay a Copper Dragon. Planning this, I reviewed the quite complete list of skills, abilities, etc the copper dragon has.

One question arose following that. It is stated in the copper dragon monster statistics block that abilities such as strength, etc, rise with the dragon growing in age (from Adult to Mature Adult and so on).

My question is when the age category update happens to make the dragon grow in size as well (Medium to large for example) some statistics move as well (Strength increases, Dexterity decreases and so on).

Are these modifications (size) to affect the dragon as well or are these modifications already included in the dragon stats block when age category updates?

Thanks for the clarification in advance
Derren S.
11-06-06, 01:06 PM They are already included. Just subtract 10/11 from the abilities in the MM to get the ability adjustments.
Mordor11
11-06-06, 01:52 PM My guess is that they are not.

Take for example, the STR increase from large to medium, ( + 4) (See tables: changes to statistics by Size in the 3.5 SRD)

If you include this in the dragon copper dragon statistics, the dragon changes size from small to medium when he goes from very young to young. At this point, the dragon's STR score increases by two points only.
obrysii
11-06-06, 02:18 PM My guess is that they are not.

Take for example, the STR increase from large to medium, ( + 4) (See tables: changes to statistics by Size in the 3.5 SRD)

If you include this in the dragon copper dragon statistics, the dragon changes size from small to medium when he goes from very young to young. At this point, the dragon's STR score increases by two points only.

Use the dragon stats as presented. Don't over think it. You don't gain the big boost from the "Changes to Statistics by Size" table in the SRD. That's for advancing monsters. Dragons already have their own rules. Follow those.
runestar
11-06-06, 10:36 PM Nor will you get +1stat every 4th HD...;)
Derren S.
11-07-06, 01:14 AM Nor will you get +1stat every 4th HD...;)

Where does it say that?
Mordor11
11-07-06, 07:51 AM Hooo. You guys ruin my evil plans! But thanks for the answers, helpful.
runestar
11-07-06, 11:40 AM Where does it say that?
It doesn't. The +1stat you are supposed to get every 4th HD is assumed to already have been factored into the stat bonuses you get.:)
obrysii
11-07-06, 12:16 PM It doesn't. The +1stat you are supposed to get every 4th HD is assumed to already have been factored into the stat bonuses you get.:)

...for monsters. As PCs, they ought to get it.
Doom_Linnorm
11-07-06, 12:27 PM They do, Draconomicon says so and it is confirmed a second time in the paragraph about dragons, intellegence and skillpoints.
Dragon PCs? Draconomicon is your friend.
Heck in my opinion it is quite easily my most treasured book anyway, despite the fact that I don't use dragons that much, and even less dragon fights (cus I wanna keep it special).
But it is an ESSENTIAL tool for propper running of a dragon.
Mordor11
11-07-06, 12:31 PM See see I get partial credits ;)
runestar
11-08-06, 01:26 AM ...for monsters. As PCs, they ought to get it.
Why should they? Let me reiterate - say you are playing a ogre SS progression, you will not get the +1stat bonus from your 4th giant HD as that 1 point is already considered to be part of the ogre's racial stat adjustments. You are not being shortchanged or anything.:confused:
obrysii
11-08-06, 11:57 AM Why should they? Let me reiterate - say you are playing a ogre SS progression, you will not get the +1stat bonus from your 4th giant HD as that 1 point is already considered to be part of the ogre's racial stat adjustments. You are not being shortchanged or anything.:confused:

Because, do we know where that Ogre put that +1 bonus on each 4th HD? No. So it's assumed that monsters do not gain them. However: PCs, even monstrous PCs, are special and do gain +1 per 4 HD.
Gorteck
11-08-06, 12:16 PM They are already included. Just subtract 10/11 from the abilities in the MM to get the ability adjustments.
i disagree with that on a few reasons ... i happin to know a few monsters that would give +40 to some abitys then if that was true and i dount think thats the case now +30? allright i can see that ... but when its +40 or more i dount think so ...
Derren S.
11-08-06, 12:38 PM i disagree with that on a few reasons ... i happin to know a few monsters that would give +40 to some abitys then if that was true and i dount think thats the case now +30? allright i can see that ... but when its +40 or more i dount think so ...

Subtracting 10/11 is the official method to generate ability adjustments for monster PCs.
Of course some monsters will have high ability scores but those monsters are normally not intended to be used as PC or have a high LA.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mordor11 11-06-06, 12:32 PM	Hail and well met Myself and the group I am currently planning in will likely be entering a "Council of Wyms" type of quest. In this enterprise, I am choosing to roleplay a Copper Dragon. Planning this, I reviewed the quite complete list of skills, abilities, etc the copper dragon has. One question arose following that. It is stated in the copper dragon monster statistics block that abilities such as strength, etc, rise with the dragon growing in age (from Adult to Mature Adult and so on). My question is when the age category update happens to make the dragon grow in size as well (Medium to large for example) some statistics move as well (Strength increases, Dexterity decreases and so on). Are these modifications (size) to affect the dragon as well or are these modifications already included in the dragon stats block when age category updates? Thanks for the clarification in advance
Derren S. 11-06-06, 01:06 PM	They are already included. Just subtract 10/11 from the abilities in the MM to get the ability adjustments.
Mordor11 11-06-06, 01:52 PM	My guess is that they are not. Take for example, the STR increase from large to medium, ( + 4) (See tables: changes to statistics by Size in the 3.5 SRD) If you include this in the dragon copper dragon statistics, the dragon changes size from small to medium when he goes from very young to young. At this point, the dragon's STR score increases by two points only.
obrysii 11-06-06, 02:18 PM	My guess is that they are not. Take for example, the STR increase from large to medium, ( + 4) (See tables: changes to statistics by Size in the 3.5 SRD) If you include this in the dragon copper dragon statistics, the dragon changes size from small to medium when he goes from very young to young. At this point, the dragon's STR score increases by two points only. Use the dragon stats as presented. Don't over think it. You don't gain the big boost from the "Changes to Statistics by Size" table in the SRD. That's for advancing monsters. Dragons already have their own rules. Follow those.
runestar 11-06-06, 10:36 PM	Nor will you get +1stat every 4th HD...;)
Derren S. 11-07-06, 01:14 AM	Nor will you get +1stat every 4th HD...;) Where does it say that?
Mordor11 11-07-06, 07:51 AM	Hooo. You guys ruin my evil plans! But thanks for the answers, helpful.
runestar 11-07-06, 11:40 AM	Where does it say that? It doesn't. The +1stat you are supposed to get every 4th HD is assumed to already have been factored into the stat bonuses you get.:)
obrysii 11-07-06, 12:16 PM	It doesn't. The +1stat you are supposed to get every 4th HD is assumed to already have been factored into the stat bonuses you get.:) ...for monsters. As PCs, they ought to get it.
Doom_Linnorm 11-07-06, 12:27 PM	They do, Draconomicon says so and it is confirmed a second time in the paragraph about dragons, intellegence and skillpoints. Dragon PCs? Draconomicon is your friend. Heck in my opinion it is quite easily my most treasured book anyway, despite the fact that I don't use dragons that much, and even less dragon fights (cus I wanna keep it special). But it is an ESSENTIAL tool for propper running of a dragon.
Mordor11 11-07-06, 12:31 PM	See see I get partial credits ;)
runestar 11-08-06, 01:26 AM	...for monsters. As PCs, they ought to get it. Why should they? Let me reiterate - say you are playing a ogre SS progression, you will not get the +1stat bonus from your 4th giant HD as that 1 point is already considered to be part of the ogre's racial stat adjustments. You are not being shortchanged or anything.:confused:
obrysii 11-08-06, 11:57 AM	Why should they? Let me reiterate - say you are playing a ogre SS progression, you will not get the +1stat bonus from your 4th giant HD as that 1 point is already considered to be part of the ogre's racial stat adjustments. You are not being shortchanged or anything.:confused: Because, do we know where that Ogre put that +1 bonus on each 4th HD? No. So it's assumed that monsters do not gain them. However: PCs, even monstrous PCs, are special and do gain +1 per 4 HD.
Gorteck 11-08-06, 12:16 PM	They are already included. Just subtract 10/11 from the abilities in the MM to get the ability adjustments. i disagree with that on a few reasons ... i happin to know a few monsters that would give +40 to some abitys then if that was true and i dount think thats the case now +30? allright i can see that ... but when its +40 or more i dount think so ...
Derren S. 11-08-06, 12:38 PM	i disagree with that on a few reasons ... i happin to know a few monsters that would give +40 to some abitys then if that was true and i dount think thats the case now +30? allright i can see that ... but when its +40 or more i dount think so ... Subtracting 10/11 is the official method to generate ability adjustments for monster PCs. Of course some monsters will have high ability scores but those monsters are normally not intended to be used as PC or have a high LA.