Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kiwidoc 08-19-03, 11:13 AM	I am picking your brains after a discussion I got into on another board. My knowledge of aerodynamics and physics isn't very deep or complex, but it isn't basic either :) I have read many, many books about dragons and flight. I have also watched untold documentaries about flight. These comments are based on dragons as described and illustrated in D&D. My understanding is this - * The area of an animal or birds wings goes up according to the square of its length or height. The weight goes ip according to the cube. This means as the size increases the lifting ability of its wings decreases. This is why pterodactyl and albatrosses have truly enormous wing spans compared to their body size. * Something the size and the weight of a dragon could not fly supported just by its wings. It just couldn't build up enough speed to get sufficient lift force. Even if it had the incredibly rapid metabolism of a humming bird, it couldn't eat enough food to provide the energy needed to power its muscles. Think of the power of the engine needed to lift a hollow, canvas covered shell a quarter of the size of a medium dragon (even if it has four wings not two). * Even using the idea of internal chambers filled with lighter than air gases would still be seriously pushing it. If the dragon was shaped like one of those sausage balloons with the main parts of its body being rather tiny then perhaps it could fly. However it wouldn't be able to dart and swoop. * Even if you used the combination of air filled chambers and gliding using thermal lifts the dragon would not be able to lift anything else but its own body. * A dragons wings would not be strong enough to resist the forces during a dive. They would be shredded and/or torn off. * The dragons described in D&D use magic to power their flight and give them their lift. Once actually up they may glide, but it is magic that allows them to dive on their prey without ripping their wings off, and ending up a large damp patch on the castle roof ;) So does anyone else have any knowledge to contribute to this debate? I could have got the wrong end of the stick, and would love to see some hard facts, or theories backed up by experience and education.
Nerfix 08-19-03, 11:15 AM	Yawn. Magic and hollow bones. It's D&D, you think too much about science.
hiryuu 08-19-03, 11:25 AM	I like to thing of dragons as a sort of partially spirit creature - that's why they get so many spell-like abilities. If part of their metabolic systems exist magically (perhaps in an alternate plane that is coterminous with the prime material - this explains why they can eat non-organic materials), you've got a whole other monkey wrench to toss into the mix. This could help with metabolism - a metaphysically powered creature might not even have as big an appetite. The key here could be that the creature has a specially shaped wing, or that its wings are augmented by its magical metabolism (so they don't tear apart). Still, know that life will always find a way to provide what it needs. Remember Quetzalcoatlus? Before its discovery, scientists were certain that something that big couldn't exist and still fly. Perhaps the wing muscles on the outer edge of the wing of the dragon are wrapped in a sprial formation. This would allow them to be very strong and still remain supple eneough to move. Dragon scales are nearly indestructible. What if the wings are made of this same modified keratin, or a variant of it? You can't just say "it's magic." That doesn't work. You've got to say how the magic works. It's like making up a new law of physics and then not saying what that law does. Would that pass in the real world? Heck no, so why should it in speculation? This won't work in a fantasy world, either. If you walk up to a wizard and explain something as "well, it's magic," he's going to look at you like you're an idiot and then proceed to explain to you the entire theory behind the whole thing.
Nerfix 08-19-03, 11:28 AM	Originally posted by hiryuu You can't just say "it's magic." That doesn't work. You've got to say how the magic works. It's like making up a new law of physics and then not saying what that law does. Would that pass in the real world? Heck no, so why should it in speculation? Magic cancels laws of physics by creating things and energy out of nowhere.
hiryuu 08-19-03, 11:41 AM	No it doesn't. It just changes them by inserting an "except when" clause. Think of magic like free energy - it exists within a constant state in an existence coterminous with the prime material (this is called "the weave" in FR, but it may be something different in each setting, or it may come from a different source - regardless, it's still free energy). Individuals aided by those more pawerful than they (clerics), those with the know-how to manipulat ethis energy (wizards), and those whose body acts as a natural "lens" (sorcerers), and those with a primal connection to this energy (druids) can "free" and manipulate this energy by applying formulae to its emergence (spell components - verbal, somatic, and so forth). It exists as a force of will. Think of it this way" you have a ball, and it's not going anywhere. It has potential energy. Throw it. It's now giving off kinetic energy. Did it create it out of nothing? No. You transferred it to the ball when you threw it. Where did the energy you used to throw it come from? Keep tracing where that energy came from, and you'll get to the sun. Now, imagine if the sun were a constant source of energy. That's magic. Or, at least, that's one way to think of it. Now, let's say dragons have an "always on" connection to this free energy, and can manipulate it with sheer force of will. This could allow for some amazing feats and abilities (which dragons have).
Nerfix 08-19-03, 11:45 AM	Well, it's chaos, or any primal force you prefer then. In world where Dragons, Demons, Magic, Angels and pile of other goodies exist, science can kicked out, IMO.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 08-19-03, 11:46 AM	First, please do not dismiss this by saying "it's magic". First, large heavy things can fly as long as they have enough propulsionary force. Look at jumbo jets and rocket ships. I think draconic flight works through a combination of quasi-magical energies, hollow bones, tiny pockets of lighter than air gasses, sheer strength, and incredible aerodynimacs perfected by hundreds of millions of years of evolution. Considering that dragons are some of the oldest races in the D&D world, it would make sense that they have developed some organic processes that most species only dream of. Perhaps their is also some combustion processes or gas propulsion during take-off also involved. The 3.0 polymorph mentions that "most creatures with exceptionally high flight speeds fly magically", but it gives no standards for "exceptionally high".
hiryuu 08-19-03, 11:48 AM	Originally posted by Nerfix Yawn. Magic and hollow bones. It's D&D, you think too much about science. Well, great. So your world has tress that grow upside-down and normal water that kills you instantly and flows whiever damn way it pleases, and where everyone has to get around by using little tiny wings, because there's no gravity, and there's no sesne in building walls, because anyone can walk through them?
Nerfix 08-19-03, 11:51 AM	Originally posted by hiryuu Well, great. So your world has tress that grow upside-down and normal water that kills you instantly and flows whiever damn way it pleases, and where everyone has to get around by using little tiny wings, because there's no gravity, and there's no sesne in building walls, because anyone can walk through them? Far Realms. Yawn.
hiryuu 08-19-03, 11:57 AM	Yeah, that's the Far Realms. That's different. It exists on a whole other set of physics by virtue of being another plane. A world has to operate on a set of physics rules, otherwise all believability is lost, and anyone (in the case of fantasy fiction) will be unable to put up with the logistical problems any further (usually thismeans putting down the book and never reading anything from that author again). Using the magic excuse is considered uninformed, ignorant, and implausible by any number of fantasy authors. I offered an option as to how magic works, thereby freeing up your "magic" excuse (essentially agreeing while at the same time informing), but you continue to be antagonistic. So, welcome to /ignore. You no longer exist. I will no longer respond to your posts. Yawn.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 08-19-03, 12:00 PM	Originally posted by Nerfix Far Realms. Yawn. The point is that those things are laws of physics, which exist in greyhawk. Things fall because their is gravity, alchemist's fire does fire damage because it is chemically volitale and oxidizes things while giving off heat, acid does acid damage because it has a low ph and rearranges molecular bonds thereby disrupting the structure it is applied to. Lightening comes from arcane energies, nature, gods, or static electricity. Just because magic exists doesn't mean science does not exist. [Edit: I have just seen that hiryuu has already spoken on that topic. Hiryuu, I implore you to unignore Nerfix. Although he may disagree on the issue of magic&science, that doesn't mean you shouldn't communicate with him on any topic.]
Nerfix 08-19-03, 12:03 PM	I'm not any number of fantasy authors. That's my opinion, you can have yours.
Another Gnome 08-19-03, 12:06 PM	Any magic involved in dragon flight has to be similar to energies powering undead and constructs (that is, the energy doesn't go away even in antimagical areas), but most of the energy required is mundane (dracoliches have their natural flight replaced with a supernatural ability, and skeleton dragons can't fly at all). That is to say, "it's magic" is not explaining anything, and with regard to dragons it's a false statement anyway. * * * Other than that, how about replying to the actual question and just pretend magic and science are real things that coexist in a D&D world?
hiryuu 08-19-03, 12:10 PM	Originally posted by Another Gnome Other than that, how about replying to the actual question and just pretend magic and science are real things that coexist in a D&D world? That's what I said. Nerfix, however, disagreed with me.
Nerfix 08-19-03, 12:12 PM	Originally posted by Another Gnome Any magic involved in dragon flight has to be similar to energies powering undead and constructs (that is, the energy doesn't go away even in antimagical areas), but most of the energy required is mundane (dracoliches have their natural flight replaced with a supernatural ability, and skeleton dragons can't fly at all). That is to say, "it's magic" is not explaining anything, and with regard to dragons it's a false statement anyway. * * * Other than that, how about replying to the actual question and just pretend magic and science are real things that coexist in a D&D world? If you wan't the scientific answer... :teach: I would say hollow bones and those "lung-sacks" that birds (or was it flying dinosaurs?) have combined with muscles (just look at the 3.5 Dragons!) and other physiological tricks make them fly.
Tzor 08-19-03, 12:24 PM	Unfortunately, R.M.G.C.L.F. at one point you have to resort to "it's magic" to explain flying dragons. While there are basic principles that can be employed, eventually you need to augment those principles to fit the model of the dragon, and you can't really do that without some degree of magic. The problem with flight is not unique to the dragon, almost every magical beast really cannot fly out of the box. This was a problem that ressisance man (especially Leonardo da Vinci) realized early on. A human's arms are simply too weak to be able to support his own weight even if wings could be developed. I believe it was sometime in the 80's when somone tried a reasonable explanation for dragons, using the bone in the stomach generating hydrogen that filled the air bladder theory. While this was a nice exercise (that also seemed to explain why there are no dragon fossils) it cannot explain dragons other than red. Even more, any lighter than air design for dragons is destroyed because of the natural armor of the dragon's scales. Heavy scales add weight, and turn the dragon into a Lead Zepplin. Yes it is possible to make a small winged creature fly, given enough thrust, but dragon's do not have jet engines on their backs and you also get problems with the inability of such devices to hover, without causing a whole lot of problems to people below. So you need some degree of magic, to make the lighter than air model work. Once you have this, the dragon becomes a floater / flyer, being able to use that magic to varying degrees, turning it on higher to provide lift, which can be turned into forward momentum through the wings, or lowering to become a glider or diver. A similiar model was proposed in a scientific fantasy series where an amonia baloon was wrapped around a smaller helium baloon and wings were attached. When the baloon was near the surface, the amonia would be a gas, making the ship lighter than air and causing it to rise ... the wings would transfer that into horizontal momentum. Once high enough, the amonia would liquify and the helium core would be just slightly heavier than air all in all, causing the ship to go down and having the wings once again transfer vertical momentum to horizontal momentum. Going up and down the ship would move slowly forward wherever it wanted to go. (The Thermal Glidoon was originally presented in one of the series of articles known as the "Inventions of Deadelius" I don't know the exact issue because my knowledge of it came from a book created from those articles.) By alternating magic, the same could be done by dragons.
Nerfix 08-19-03, 12:30 PM	Originally posted by hiryuu I offered an option as to how magic works, thereby freeing up your "magic" excuse (essentially agreeing while at the same time informing), but you continue to be antagonistic. I hate to talk to wall's but i simply pointed out that magic does things that defy laws physic. I could use continual flame and elemental plane of fire as examples but it's all pointless now. Are other's than yours theories so offending?
R.M.G.C.L.F. 08-19-03, 01:13 PM	Tzor, actually the hydrogen theory is not only possible for red dragons. You must remember that while the flight does not have to be magical, the breath weapon definately is magical because it is a supernatural ability. I see no reason why a white dragon (for example) could not store hydrogen and then simply excrete it when not flying. Also keep in mind the incredible digestive capacity of a dragon, maybe they produce their own hydrogen by breaking down water. With the natural armor, hard does not always mean heavy. It could simply have parts of it that are hide with a very tight weave. As for the jet problem, why couldn't a dragon work up the energy to expell gas at a high speed using internal pumps? Here's another idea, dragons have very efficient metabolisms, so why not have internal gas chambers that are heated with bioenergy to expand and lighten it like a hot air ballon?
Another Gnome 08-19-03, 01:19 PM	hiryuu: That's what I said. Nerfix, however, disagreed with me. Four posts had been sent before I finished typing that reply, so pardon me for repeating things. :) Nerfix: I hate to talk to wall's but i simply pointed out that magic does things that defy laws physic. Magic seems to defy the laws of physics, but you don't know the truth of that. In real world, modern theories clearly defies certain things in Newtonian physics, but that doesn't make quantum physics and the like an imaginary thing, nor does it mean Newtonian theories of gravity are obsolete since they still work for those preferring things simple. How can you be sure it's not the same thing with magic? Anyway, assuming dragon flight is part magic and part physical science, there still can't be a correct answer to which of the two there is more and how they are related, and even if WotC specifically decided the mixture of science and magic that makes up a D&D dragon, the scientific accuracy of even the scientific portion of a dragon's physiology couldn't be proven in this world one way or the other. No amount of theories and calculations can tell what an actual fire-breathing winged reptile could or could not do. And if a dragon can control reality itself in a D&D world, who's to say it couldn't do the same in this world? So to speak.
Nerfix 08-19-03, 01:46 PM	Originally posted by Another Gnome Magic seems to defy the laws of physics, but you don't know the truth of that. In real world, modern theories clearly defies certain things in Newtonian physics, but that doesn't make quantum physics and the like an imaginary thing, nor does it mean Newtonian theories of gravity are obsolete since they still work for those preferring things simple. How can you be sure it's not the same thing with magic? Because we don't resolve wars with fireballs and meteor storms? For "defying laws of physics": A simple example is Continual Flame:fires burning eternaly and not consuming all air from the planet commonly called "prime material plane" or not consuming apparently air at all... I realy ment basic physics, if we go to high level physics, heck, our universe is made out of 10 dimensional strings...
Tevish Szat 08-19-03, 04:30 PM	I point you all to The Flight of Dragons, by Peter Dickenson. You do not need to use magic or break the laws of physics to get big lizards to fly and breathe fire ;) 'course that isn't quite D&D dragons, but...
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM 08-19-03, 04:51 PM	Dragons IMC fly through a combination of Fuggin huge wings (I upped them from those itty bitty wings in the PHB to at least 1.5x the length of the dragon, Fuggin huge muscles to beat wings, four lungs like some birds, and tiny pockets of gas within the deepest areas of their torso(like several of a fishes Air Bladders filled with lighter than air gas). And magic to reduce their weight. Oh, and they have partially hollow bones. Drakes in my world are a bit less complex. They have many pockets of flammable gas that ignites upon reaching air within them, always pretty far from vital things. They possess redundant systems to make sure if they ever pierce themselves and injure an area, they may not be out yet. Drakes, of course, are small and stupid, but the "flight gas" is a natural defense mechanism since it can be routed through a second, fire resistant wind pipe up through the mouth (breath weapon), and if pierced or slashed hard enough the gas leaks a small or large amount, igniting the area in a burst of fire. Most drakes are able to withstand the temperatures of their own ignited gas for short amounts of time. Possibly they create this gas by drawing the ingrediants out of specific foods they need to survive. (such as Koalas only eating Eukalyptus, though this has a very specific reason compared to the Koala's natural and instinctive preference). Drakes would have hollow bones like a bird. Pretty big wings, too. A standard 1-foot long drake would have approximately 3'6"-4' wingspan., fully unfurled. Definately an outdoor pet. :P I imagine a primitive dragon using systems like a Drake, and then later seperating the gas from the breath weapon, using magic to create the fire. Also, their magic would suppliment their weight, making them less reliant upon lighter than air gas, and they wouldn't need it to be flammable since they no longer would use it as a breath weapon. Since the breath weapon is no longer flammable gas, it could end up becoming anything. Acid breathing dragons or drakes would be pretty interesting, on a side note. Maybe they have a seperate organ filled with reserve stomach acid that they can regurgiate upwards. Interesting, they'd require pretty well adapted mouths and throats to handle projectile vomiting their own stomach acid on others.
Gez 08-19-03, 04:56 PM	Nope, they couldn't, based on a world with atmosphere and gravity similar to Earth's. I remember a scientist amused himself by calculating, from a medieval dragon picture, that the beast would need to flap its wings faster than sound to take off, and that it would be unable to fly forward, only backward. By the way, angels and other winged humanoids are impossible too. Avariels don't fly. Of course, if you follow that train of thought, you have to wonder how centaurs do synchronize their two hearts, two pair of lungs, and two set of stomach and intestines.
Selenia's angel 08-19-03, 05:01 PM	Terry Prachett wrought in a very old book (Strata) that a dragon helped it'self keep up in the air by breathing some fire (making the air hot) underneath the wing, so it provides lots of lift.
Gez 08-19-03, 05:04 PM	Originally posted by Selenia's angel Terry Prachett wrought in a very old book (Strata) that a dragon helped it'self keep up in the air by breathing some fire (making the air hot) underneath the wing, so it provides lots of lift. Of course, Pratchett's physics are not totally accurate. Strata is a flat world, for example.
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-19-03, 05:35 PM	*begins drawing incredibly complex diagram* the skeleton: hollow and composed of honeycombs of carbon The wings: not actually a membrane, a cartilage and carbon mesh that was ultra light yet strong The organs : swim bladder like bags lined the areas near spine and rib cage, supporting the heaviest parts of the structure. More pockets of gas exist in the stomach, bladder and intestines Appendages: The dragons incredibly muscled hinglegs allow for very high jumps. Gills: Finally, gill like flaps below the dragon's wings released short bursts of gas and bodily fluid (sweat) to propel the beast upward when it jumped.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 08-19-03, 06:51 PM	MRDOD, to answer your question on acid breath for dragons, the dragons would breath acid magically (since a breath weapon is a supernatural ability), but as for the drakes, perhaps they have a thick mucus lining, just like the mucus in our stomach that keeps our own digestive acids from killing us.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 08-19-03, 06:54 PM	Originally posted by Gez Nope, they couldn't, based on a world with atmosphere and gravity similar to Earth's. I remember a scientist amused himself by calculating, from a medieval dragon picture, that the beast would need to flap its wings faster than sound to take off, and that it would be unable to fly forward, only backward. By the way, angels and other winged humanoids are impossible too. Avariels don't fly. Of course, if you follow that train of thought, you have to wonder how centaurs do synchronize their two hearts, two pair of lungs, and two set of stomach and intestines. That was another dragon. D&D dragons probably have different physical proportions. Why aren't winged humanoid-shaped creature's possible? You can still have hollow bones and the other flight requirements and mantain a human-like shape. Who says centaurs have to stomaches, hearts, etc? You've never seen the inside, just the outside. Just because they look like a man torso and a horse body doesn't mean the internal anatomy is the same.
Mercury Glitch 08-19-03, 07:40 PM	None of the dragons could fly, unless they have hollow bones, and wing spans that make demiplanes look small. They weigh too much (check out the size - height/weight table in the MM somewhere towards the back. The things are easily a few tons when full grown. Unlike rockets and airplanes they don't have rockets out their arses, they have wings that flap. As to magic and physics, the two are not comparable, do not attempt it. You have creatures shifting into other creatures, the whole of the healing spells, negative energy casting as well, and don't get me started on the whole feeblemind type of spell. It ain't physics. Now, why can they fly Wel, lets see, THEY'RE ****ING dragons! Ok, do we all remember what the NAME of this game is dungeons and DRAGONS. That in itself should tell you how kick butt they are, how if properly played there is no way a dragon would be taken down by a group that actually matched it's given CR. The dragon woul DESTROY the group because it's just that freaking cool, and yes I will revert to this, it owns any party of equal CR (by the wotc standards). Pseudodragons stand a good chance of being able to fly in our world though, they're about the size of a cat, and could potentially have a wing span that would grant flight. Asking why magic works is like finding out there's no santa claus... it just ruins the illusion. Magic works because it does, don't explain it.
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-19-03, 08:52 PM	On the flip side, have a PC tell the dragon she can't fly. A messy messy death indeed
The Abominable Darkling 08-19-03, 09:11 PM	Maybe the dragon uses something like a warp field to reduce its mass. It's worth pointing out that dragon flight is supernatural, so even the designers figure that some sort of magic is involved.
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM 08-19-03, 09:19 PM	A significant portion of a dragon's natural magic is probably devoted to reducing the dragon's weight. This alone maybe accounts for 50% of the problems of draconic flight. Sufficiently huge fuggin wings and sufficiently huge fuggin wing muscles should cover most of the rest. not to mention internal "flight gas" as I chirsten it, and partially hollow bones (draconic skeletons are hard to shatter, most likely, since they have to support the weight of the animal itself. most likely they are only partially hollow.) cover most of the other problems. Nonmagic dragons like my Drakes would usually be limited to no less than the size of a large dog.
Insanity 08-19-03, 10:26 PM	This a different point in this arguement, and a bit lengthy, but the atmospheric condition should be consider in the question of flying dragons. During the Cretaceous period, Earth's atmosphere contained about 35% oxygen. This had dropped to about 28% at the end of the Cretaceous period, about when the dinosaurs died out. Currently it is at about 21%. This one of the current theories on the extinction of the dinosaurs, of which most would be of approximate size of any dragon, particularily the sauropods. During those times, there were dragonflies with wingspans over two feet wide. Dragonflies of this size cannot exist today because of the low oxygen content. Unlike mammals and reptiles, insects respiratory systems are separate from the circulatory systems. Oxygen is delivered, by diffusion, to the cells through a complex tube network. This respiratory system does not allow for very large insects species. The higher oxygen would have meant a slightly denser atmosphere, and more available oxygen for respiration, and such the very large dragonflies. This is also one flaw in the Jurassic Park novels, even if bringing back the dinosaurs through DNA extraction from amber encased mosquitos were possible, its doubtful if they could live in our, to them, low oxygen atmosphere. It would be the same as anyone native to areas in the USA that are at sea level being placed in the Himalayas without the proper breathing gear. A high oxygen content may give dragons the extra lift and energy they need to fly, or at least make it easier.
Kari 08-20-03, 12:43 AM	Originally posted by Mercury Glitch They weigh too much (check out the size - height/weight table in the MM somewhere towards the back. The weight tables in the MM are insane, too. I wouldn't use them as a guide for figuring the weight on anything.
tiggrhoo 08-20-03, 12:59 AM	Joel Rosenberg's excellent Guardians of the Flame (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0743435893/qid=1061355595/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_2/002-3197360-0809661?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) series has dragons combining wing power with what seems to be telekinesis. Since they're obviously far too heavy to fly by normal means, they have to add their "inner strength". It's like in Peter Pan -- they have to think happy thoughts. :D
kiwidoc 08-20-03, 02:27 AM	I think I need to clarify myself. My question wasn't "How does magic help dragons fly?" - it was supposed to be "Can dragons fly without magic?". Remember my original post said that even with lighter-than-air pockets (which includes pocket in hollow zones) a dragon still couldn't fly using muscle power and wings. The lift it got from these pockets still wouldn't be enough to make up for the massive weight. If you are going to use this theory to explain the flight could you please address the idea that this would still not be enough. Thanks. I apologize for the multiple embedded quotes, but I am trying to extract and summarize the posts that address the issue of being able to fly without magic. Originally posted by Tevish Szat I point you all to The Flight of Dragons, by Peter Dickenson. You do not need to use magic or break the laws of physics to get big lizards to fly and breathe fire ;) It would be really helpful if you gave us some ideas about how Dickenson explains the flight of dragons, how it actually works. Tzor Thanks for your excellent post. It was good to see someone looking at the science when they discussed the “lighter-than-air chambers” theory. Originally posted by R.M.G.C.L.F. As for the jet problem, why couldn't a dragon work up the energy to expell gas at a high speed using internal pumps? Here's another idea, dragons have very efficient metabolisms, so why not have internal gas chambers that are heated with bioenergy to expand and lighten it like a hot air ballon? The energy needed to run these systems (to heat up the gases, or to expel them) has to come from somewhere. You run into the same problem as I mentioned in the original post. How could a dragon spend enough energy to maintain flight without literally starving to death? Their metabolisms would have to run at an incredibly high rate, burning up fuel=food faster than they could eat it. Originally posted by Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM Dragons IMC fly through a combination of Fuggin huge wings (I upped them from those itty bitty wings in the PHB to at least 1.5x the length of the dragon, Fuggin huge muscles to beat wings, four lungs like some birds, and tiny pockets of gas within the deepest areas of their torso (like several of a fishes Air Bladders filled with lighter than air gas). And magic to reduce their weight. Oh, and they have partially hollow bones. I have been thinking about your post. Even if the wings were 2 times the length of the dragon they still wouldn’t be big enough. Remember the problem with wing area going up in proportion to length squared, while weight goes up in proportion to length cubed. An albatross, which is MUCH smaller than even an infant dragon, needs wings over twice its body length to be able to fly. I see your agree that bigger wings and lighter-than-air chambers still wouldn’t be enough. Dragons do need magic in order to fly. Originally posted by Gez Nope, they couldn't, based on a world with atmosphere and gravity similar to Earth's. I remember a scientist amused himself by calculating, from a medieval dragon picture, that the beast would need to flap its wings faster than sound to take off, and that it would be unable to fly forward, only backward. You’ve read that too :) Now if only I could remember who the hell said this and where I saw it! Originally posted by Selenia's angel Terry Prachett wrought in a very old book (Strata) that a dragon helped it'self keep up in the air by breathing some fire (making the air hot) underneath the wing, so it provides lots of lift. In his later books, including the Disc World Science books, Pratchett points out that dragons are aerodynamically impossible and couldn’t fly even in a world with a very, very high “magical field”. He plays with the jet engine theory for comic effect, but his “jet dragon” is still tiny compared to D&D/legendary dragons. Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland *begins drawing incredibly complex diagram* the skeleton: hollow and composed of honeycombs of carbon The wings: not actually a membrane, a cartilage and carbon mesh that was ultra light yet strong The organs : swim bladder like bags lined the areas near spine and rib cage, supporting the heaviest parts of the structure. More pockets of gas exist in the stomach, bladder and intestines Appendages: The dragons incredibly muscled hinglegs allow for very high jumps. Gills: Finally, gill like flaps below the dragon's wings released short bursts of gas and bodily fluid (sweat) to propel the beast upward when it jumped. See my previous comments about lighter-than-air chambers, and fuel! Originally posted by Mercury Glitch None of the dragons could fly, unless they have hollow bones, and wing spans that make demiplanes look small. They weigh too much (check out the size - height/weight table in the MM somewhere towards the back. The things are easily a few tons when full grown. Unlike rockets and airplanes they don't have rockets out their arses, they have wings that flap. As to magic and physics, the two are not comparable, do not attempt it. You have creatures shifting into other creatures, the whole of the healing spells, negative energy casting as well, and don't get me started on the whole feeblemind type of spell. It ain't physics. Now, why can they fly Wel, lets see, THEY'RE ****ING dragons! . Personally I love the idea that they are such magical beings the laws of physics don’t apply to them. I hate the idea of explaining exactly how the magic makes this happen – mystique is a wonderful thing! Originally posted by The Abominable Darkling It's worth pointing out that dragon flight is supernatural, so even the designers figure that some sort of magic is involved. I hadn’t realised this. Thanks for pointing it out :) Originally posted by tiggrhoo Joel Rosenberg's excellent Guardians of the Flame (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0743435893/qid=1061355595/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_2/002-3197360-0809661?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) series has dragons combining wing power with what seems to be telekinesis. Since they're obviously far too heavy to fly by normal means, they have to add their "inner strength". It's like in Peter Pan -- they have to think happy thoughts. :D Another one supporting the “no they can’t and you need something else other than physics to explain their flight” camp :)
Tenzhi 08-20-03, 02:32 AM	Many of the dragons in my world(s) don't even have wings and they fly. How do they fly? They just do. Why do things generally tend to fall "down"? They just do. Why does fire burn? It just does. Why do humans constantly try to define everything around them to the Nth degree? It is in their nature to fear the unknown.
Tenzhi 08-20-03, 02:37 AM	As to whether dragons can fly without magic - that is a tricky question. Any sufficiently advanced science might be considered magic - would a laptop stop working under a beholder's gaze?
Hope 08-20-03, 02:41 AM	I'm pretty sure that dragons don't need magic to fly, otherwise this would be mentioned in their descriptions. They can fly just fine in an antimagic field. Oh, and Colossal dragons that are just standing on the ground don't collapse under their own weight in an AMF the way they should, either. How do dragons fly without magic? The same way a high level barbarian can ignore dagger wounds without magic, or a troll can regenerate without magic. The laws of physics in Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms are very... forgiving, shall we say. Even without magic, things happen in D&D that are impossible in the real world. Even a first level commoner can dodge attacks that the most highly trained marine or ninja in the real world can't. Thus, in order to fly, dragons don't need magic, they just have to take advantage of the lax physical laws that govern their world.
Draco Argentum 08-20-03, 03:52 AM	Well anything can really fly if you have a big enough motor. A Dragon in particular is an issue. Weight can be kept down if you don't try to use normal materials. Go for the exotic stuff that is currently theory or experimental. That will give strength to the structure without making it heavy. The AC is done with that and intelligent material use. Modern armour isn't just a big slab of hard stuff so a Dragon's armour dosen't need to be either. Muscles IRL have fast twitch and slow twitch fibres. Maybe Dragons only have one type that does the jobs of both. Plus it helps to look at Lockwood's Sliver. http://toddlockwood.com/Silver.jpg (Link) The wings are quite large and so are the flight muscles. Discussion of Dragon metabolism is pretty pointless considering their eating habits. Brass Dragons get nourishment from dew. All of them can eat inorganics. Golds are listed as usually sustaining themselves on pearls or small gems. Its obvious that Draconic metabolism dosen't resemble anything other than certain microbes and even then its tenuous. So Dragon's can't fly but you can get a half-baked explaination.
Regdar6 08-20-03, 04:17 AM	Hope, you say that a commoner could dodge an attack that even the most highly trained ninja in the real world couldnt dodge. Explain.
Another Gnome 08-20-03, 06:22 AM	Originally posted by The Abominable Darkling It's worth pointing out that dragon flight is supernatural, so even the designers figure that some sort of magic is involved. It says that where precisely?
Insanity 08-20-03, 06:46 AM	Originally posted by Regdar6 Hope, you say that a commoner could dodge an attack that even the most highly trained ninja in the real world couldnt dodge. Explain. Believe he would be refering to attacks being made on a commoner and a ninja, and having the attacker roll a natural 1 on the commoner and a natural 20 on the ninja. Optional rule that 1s always miss and 20s always hit, essentially the commoner ducked while the ninja didn't know what hit him.
Tevish Szat 08-20-03, 12:14 PM	Originally posted by kiwidoc It would be really helpful if you gave us some ideas about how Dickenson explains the flight of dragons, how it actually works. A dragons body is mostly gass filled chambers. the gas is internally produced hydrogen. their wings don't need to do very much at all to get of the ground.
hiryuu 08-20-03, 12:46 PM	Originally posted by Tenzhi As to whether dragons can fly without magic - that is a tricky question. Any sufficiently advanced science might be considered magic - would a laptop stop working under a beholder's gaze? No, because a laptop doesn't run on free energy. Ah, and as an answer to a previous post, dragons do fly with free energy at a certain point. I don't know what it is in 3.5, but I know that in 3.0, once a dragon's flight hits a certain speed, it becomes supernatural, and thus free energy in nature. Can't for the life of me find that speed, but I can find a couple of clauses that state it.
Mercury Glitch 08-20-03, 01:14 PM	I looked over the dragons in 3.5 couldn't find where they said flight was a SU, it just says they are really amazingly good fliers.. hmm didn't I say something about dragons just flat out dominating? :)
Pumpoei 08-20-03, 01:18 PM	Giants are impossible. They'd be crushed under they're own weight.... but it doesen't matter. I'm of the opinion that magic replaces science in a fantasy genre, it doesen't except it. My DnD world is flat, and hangs by a silver thread from the heavens. If that thread broke, it would fall into the phantom zone. :P
hiryuu 08-20-03, 01:23 PM	Originally posted by Pumpoei Giants are impossible. They'd be crushed under they're own weight.... but it doesen't matter. I'm of the opinion that magic replaces science in a fantasy genre, it doesen't except it. My DnD world is flat, and hangs by a silver thread from the heavens. If that thread broke, it would fall into the phantom zone. :P And you just mentioned two aspects of physics in your world. Congrats! You've incorporated aspects of science! "My DnD world is flat." "If that thread broke, it would fall into the phantom zone."
Mercury Glitch 08-20-03, 01:27 PM	Umm you have to have SOME physics in your fantasy world, or something to replace it entirely, which magic doesn't do IMO. Gravity is somewhate needed. Magic lets critters bypass physics.
Elendur 08-20-03, 02:05 PM	If dragons had an arbitrarily high strength, to flap their wings, and their wings were arbitrarily durable, would that be enough for dragons to fly? By arbitrarily I mean as high as it takes to make the equation work out. Would a dragon have to flap its wings as fast as a hummingbird's? The idea of making dragons lighter bugs me for some reason. I just think dragons are heavy. In fantasy I assume that things work as in the real world until I encounter something that is impossible. Then I assume there must magic or some fantasy element at work.
Mercury Glitch 08-20-03, 02:19 PM	If we used the str equation, then anything that strapped a pair of durable wings on its back, and had arms to manipulate them, could fly. I had a large creature with a str of 52 (all of 3 templates, and a base of 20 str (15th level before the templates). If we use str as the main thing, then he should have been able to fly, the dude could drag like 266,000 pounds and he only weighed 2500. Provided he gets significantly durable wings, which shouldn't be a problem since he would be able to lift just about anything. We don't know exactly how gravity works, yet we're not all flying off into space, somethings just are.
Gez 08-20-03, 02:35 PM	Originally posted by Hope I'm pretty sure that dragons don't need magic to fly, otherwise this would be mentioned in their descriptions. They can fly just fine in an antimagic field. Oh, and Colossal dragons that are just standing on the ground don't collapse under their own weight in an AMF the way they should, either. Yep. Beholders continue to levitate, trolls continue to regenerate. In a magic world, some magic is so integral to the very nature of the world it can't be negated or dispelled. Preventing a dragon to fly, or a troll to regenerate, would require to make a Dispel Magic check higher than the World's Very Own Caster Level, which is something even gods probably can't do. Originally posted by Tenzhi Why do humans constantly try to define everything around them to the Nth degree? It is in their nature to fear the unknown. How very true. In fact, accepting something, just accepting it, without trying to know how it works, is an act of faith.
Regdar6 08-20-03, 03:42 PM	It is something gods probably could do. If im not mistraken, the material plane is divinley morphic.
Nerfix 08-20-03, 03:50 PM	Originally posted by Regdar6 It is something gods probably could do. If im not mistraken, the material plane is divinley morphic. I believe PMP is Alternable(sp?) Morphic... Nothing that magic can't fix... (Okay, put the rocks, spears and assault riftles down...)
Mercury Glitch 08-20-03, 03:51 PM	to nip the gods thing in the butt, if a god was having a problem with a dragon, there would be some serious balance issues. Deities have something like 60 levels as a base. That and you give a god the power of death and... well.. yeah.
Nerfix 08-20-03, 03:56 PM	Originally posted by Mercury Glitch to nip the gods thing in the butt, if a god was having a problem with a dragon, there would be some serious balance issues. Deities have something like 60 levels as a base. That and you give a god the power of death and... well.. yeah. Yes, deities whoop rear-end, but that's because they have so much "Alternable Morphic Power":There is no single creature/creatures in PMP that would control the geometry because they just can etc. in there. So it's Alternable Morphic. Divine Morphic places... if the Big Boss wants to make 100 miles thick wall of Adamantium... *poof* *shrug*
Bacon and Eggs 08-20-03, 04:14 PM	Originally posted by Tenzhi Many of the dragons in my world(s) don't even have wings and they fly. How do they fly? They just do. Why do things generally tend to fall "down"? They just do. Why does fire burn? It just does. Why do humans constantly try to define everything around them to the Nth degree? It is in their nature to fear the unknown. I'm just quoting this for the no wings part. Would it be possible that the scales could have something to do with it. I know this is a weak theory, but even I can't come up with enough fluff to explain the flight as non-magical. So say the scales had a property that allowed dragon kind the ability to "swim" or "slither" through the air. I don't know what the activator may be to have that happen, but I'm sure I can come up with something by the end of the day. Perhaps there is an electro-magnetic charge strong enough to repel air and thus granting lift(just as a snake would pull itself over the ground by thousands of tiny movements). Yep, I'm still out of my tree.
split infinitude 08-20-03, 04:30 PM	The answer to the question, per the SRD and MM, is: Unless noted otherwise, modes of movement are natural (not magical). So, dragon flight is not magical, and works in AMF or dispel magic. What exactly allows a dragon to fly, besides magic, is an open question, much like how exactly a giant doesn't collapse under the square-cube law. However, IMO this line of thinking: Originally posted by Gez Yep. Beholders continue to levitate, trolls continue to regenerate. In a magic world, some magic is so integral to the very nature of the world it can't be negated or dispelled. Preventing a dragon to fly, or a troll to regenerate, would require to make a Dispel Magic check higher than the World's Very Own Caster Level, which is something even gods probably can't do. is somewhat inaccurate. Not a bad way of looking at things, but IMO it's better just to assume there's some physical reason these things work - incredibly fast metabolism for trolls, "natural bouyancy" for beholders, and the fine ideas in this thread for "scientific" dragon flight - and leave magic out of it altogether.
kiwidoc 08-20-03, 05:21 PM	Originally posted by Mercury Glitch If we used the str. equation, then anything that strapped a pair of durable wings on its back, and had arms to manipulate them, could fly. I had a large creature with a str. of 52 (all of 3 templates, and a base of 20 str (15th level before the templates). If we use str as the main thing, then he should have been able to fly, the dude could drag like 266,000 pounds and he only weighed 2500. Provided he gets significantly durable wings, which shouldn't be a problem since he would be able to lift just about anything. Even the strongest human beings with the largest, lightest and most durable wings cannot provide enough force to fly. The most powerful of human muscles can't provide enough forward momentum to actually fly - all they can do is glide. This has been accepted since the days of Da Vinci, and has been proved over and over. We had to wait for the internal combustion engine to provide a force many, many times stronger than human muscle in order for humans to fly. If you remember the equation - wings go up by the length squared, weight goes up by length cubed - then you can see how much more difficult to would be for dragons to fly using muscle power. To add more fuel to the argument the strength of a muscle is proportional to the number of muscle fibres which is proportional to the cross section; and goes up by the square of length, not the cube. This is why small animals and insects are so "strong" and can lift things weighing many times their own weight. The bigger the animal, the less strong it is in relation to its total mass.
Elendur 08-20-03, 05:47 PM	The square-cube thing, that is the key. If you could come up with an explanation of how that doesn't apply in D&D, you fix a lot of issues, dragon and giant included.
Gez 08-20-03, 07:01 PM	The square-cube law works even more generally: muscular strength depends on the number of fibers, which relates to the width of the muscles. So, strength grows with square of length. I remember reading something about flight speed above a certain value being usually supernatural, but I can't find it back right now.
Hope 08-20-03, 09:53 PM	Originally posted by Regdar6 Hope, you say that a commoner could dodge an attack that even the most highly trained ninja in the real world couldnt dodge. Explain. Gladly! What follows is my standard argument to show that D&D doesn't even pretend to follow the normal laws of physics in the absence of magic. First, we have to assume that, in the real world, there is no such thing as a "sixth sense" that warns people of danger. No human being can react to something that doesn't register on his five senses (sight, hearing, touch, smell, taste). Yes, I believe that "intuition" exists, but only as subconscious processing of data that the five senses pick up. Agreed? With this in mind, consider the following situation. A soldier with a silenced sniper rifle is sitting half a mile away from a ninja who is simply standing in a field composing some haiku. The ninja hasn't seen or otherwise detected the soldier, and is facing away from him. The soldier has a laser sight which has been perfectly calibrated. The soldier puts the red dot on the back of the ninja's head, and pulls the trigger. The ninja hasn't seen any of this, he can't feel the dot (it's no hotter than the bright sunny day), he doesn't hear the silenced rifle shot. Can we assume, then, that the ninja takes no evasive action whatsoever? Good. Thus, the only thing determining whether or not the bullet hits is whether the sniper's hands are sufficiently steady to hold his aim. Now consider the following two situations. (A) A first level commoner with Dexterity 10 is standing in a field. Thirty feet away is a first level wizard with Dexterity 10 and a wand of melf's acid arrow. The wizard has recently read a scroll of invisibility and is carrying an object with a silence spell upon it. He activates the wand and makes his ranged touch attack. The peasant's touch AC is 10. The wizard has a BAB of 0 and a Dex modifier of 0 (to make things simple). The wizard gets a +2 to hit for being invisible. He needs to roll an 8 to hit the peasant. Okay so far? (B) Exactly the same situation, but the peasant has Dexterity 3. Thus his touch AC is 6, so the wizard needs a 4 to hit. Thus, there is a 20% chance that the peasant having Dexterity 10 instead of 3 will cause the wizard to miss. Thus the peasant must be taking some kind of evasive action. But how is that possible? He hasn't seen the wizard, he hasn't heard him, he has no idea that he's there. He's just standing there ploughing his fields. If you want to argue that melf's acid arrow could be heard or smelt on its way to hit the peasant, make it a dimensional anchor ray instead. It's a thought experiment - I can make it even more contrived if you like. The point is, the peasant keeps his Dexterity modifier to AC at 0 rather than -5, which it would be if he were incapable of motion, even when he doesn't know about the attack. Thus he has some kind of sixth sense for danger, which real-world ninjas, despite being totally awesome, don't have. If the peasant were in the sniper situation, he'd have some chance of dodging the bullet, whereas if the ninja were in the wizard situation, he'd sit there and take the spell. In summary - any creature in D&D with a Wisdom of 1 or higher (what you need to be a creature rather than an object) and a Dexterity of 1 or higher (what you need to be able to move) has a sixth sense for danger and can react to threats of which he isn't consciously aware. This requires neither class levels nor magic. Thus, ordinary people and animals in D&D are capable of things that no real person will ever accomplish.
Hope 08-20-03, 09:54 PM	Originally posted by Gez I remember reading something about flight speed above a certain value being usually supernatural, but I can't find it back right now. I think that was in the various polymorph spells. It was more of a guideline than a rule, since it also stated that a dolphin's swim speed was supernatural. Anyway, that's just one spell. If it said it in, say, the Monster Manual, it would have more impact.
Draco Argentum 08-20-03, 11:49 PM	Originally posted by kiwidoc Even the strongest human beings with the largest, lightest and most durable wings cannot provide enough force to fly. The most powerful of human muscles can't provide enough forward momentum to actually fly - all they can do is glide. Actually muscle powered flight is possible for a human. You need pedals, a propellor and lightweight high lift wings. It has been done. Obviously I cheated and used an example not involveing flapping. But if you had Str 50 (which is far beyond physically possible for a human) you could probably fly. Brute force solves anything if you have enough. If a Dragon had arbitary strength and its wings were arbitarily strong then it could fly. But a brick flies if you push it hard enough. A Dragon's muscles are not arbitarily strong so they may not be able to fly. Its a matter of the strength of the Dragon's muscles, the lift of his wings, the weight of his body and the drag on his body. To have any hope of answering the question you need those numbers.
Eyes in the Darkness 08-21-03, 12:03 AM	I believe that speeds of 60ft and above are considered supernatural. I think that this was detailed somewhere regarding monks because of their improved speed feature. To address the whole magic vs. physics argument, try reading The Incarnations of Immortality by Piers Anthony. There magic is an aspect of physics and one of the five elementary forces: strong nuclear, weak nuclear, electromagnetic, gravity, and magic. In that universe the Unified Field Theory could only be discovered once magicons (photons, gravitons, etc.) were factored into the equation. This was good because it allowed for them to escape the restrictions of magic to the Earth's orbit and use transporters and fusion engines to explore the universe. Now, to how a dragon could exist without magic would require some Trekkish psuedo-physics. Probably the easiest method would be for the dragon to warp gravity either using some form exotic matter or specialized energy manipulations. Their metabolisms could be supplimented by micro-wormholes feeding directly off of the cores of stars or beyond the event-horizon of black holes. Ironically enough, this sort of non-magical method uses some of the weirder parts of science that are conceivable using what we know today, and would thus seem magical to most observers.
Draco Argentum 08-21-03, 12:33 AM	Originally posted by Eyes in the Darkness I believe that speeds of 60ft and above are considered supernatural. I think that this was detailed somewhere regarding monks because of their improved speed feature. That means dolphins have supernatural movement. The thing you are quoteing is not a hard rule.
Regdar6 08-21-03, 12:53 AM	Hmmm....With all of those examples, the person is staying still. Technically speaking, you could perform a coup de grace on them. As for the sniper, he would be a trained proffessional, the laser sight and scope would add further bonuses. As for the wizard, he is an invisible attacker and would get plus 2. Now, you said its a level one wizard. He wont be that great at holding the wand steady etc etc etc, so there is a chance that the commoner would move when the wizard fires, and his mediocre relfexes wouldnt allow re adjustment. I agree it isnt a perfect system, but its close. You should't find too many situations where it is grossly imbalanced. Another thing, the bullet isnt guaranteed to hit the ninja. The wind will change its course.
Hope 08-21-03, 01:10 AM	Originally posted by Regdar6 Hmmm....With all of those examples, the person is staying still. Technically speaking, you could perform a coup de grace on them. Nope. Neither of them is helpless, they're just not actively doing anything to avoid attack. It's a well established fact that just sneaking up behind a guard in D&D doesn't enable you to perform a coup de grace on him. As for the sniper, he would be a trained proffessional, the laser sight and scope would add further bonuses. As for the wizard, he is an invisible attacker and would get plus 2. Now, you said its a level one wizard. He wont be that great at holding the wand steady etc etc etc, so there is a chance that the commoner would move when the wizard fires, and his mediocre relfexes wouldnt allow re adjustment. I agree it isnt a perfect system, but its close. You should't find too many situations where it is grossly imbalanced. Another thing, the bullet isnt guaranteed to hit the ninja. The wind will change its course. All of this is true, but it doesn't change the final conclusion: The wizard finds it easier to hit the Dex 3 peasant than the Dex 10 peasant, despite the peasant not knowing about the wizard. How is this possible without the peasant having a sixth sense for danger?
Tenzhi 08-21-03, 03:47 AM	Originally posted by Bacon and Eggs I'm just quoting this for the no wings part. Would it be possible that the scales could have something to do with it. I know this is a weak theory, but even I can't come up with enough fluff to explain the flight as non-magical. They biologically generate a weak astral field that allows them to move on the Prime Material Plane just as if they were in the Astral plane. Or something. The important part is that they fly without wings. Originally posted by hiryuu No, because a laptop doesn't run on free energy. A laptop running off batteries is as much using "free energy" as a Rod working off charges. And you just mentioned two aspects of physics in your world. Congrats! You've incorporated aspects of science! Not unless science has devolved into a set of arbitrary rules that work "just because I say so."
Mirtek 08-21-03, 08:19 AM	Originally posted by hiryuu Well, great. So your world has tress that grow upside-down and normal water that kills you instantly and flows whiever damn way it pleases, and where everyone has to get around by using little tiny wings, because there's no gravity, and there's no sesne in building walls, because anyone can walk through them? Well, i a magically cursed forest, why not? There you can find your deadly water running up a mountain and even whole waterfall running up instead of falling down and so on
Gez 08-21-03, 08:20 AM	Originally posted by Draco Argentum That means dolphins have supernatural movement. The thing you are quoteing is not a hard rule. There's no dolphins in D&D... Nah, that rule about speed for monk is that any base speed above twice the norm for the specie is supernatural. A halfling moving at 40 is natural, at 41 or more it's supernatural. The actual rule was in Polymorph Other (but maybe removed in the revised edition): Extremely high speeds for certain creatures are the result of magical ability, so they are not granted by this spell. (In general, these abilities include nonflying speeds greater than 60 feet and flying speed greater than 120 feet.) It's a rule of thumb, though. This could allow a DM to refuse a polymorphing wizard to turn into a (Large) dragon and fly.
kiwidoc 08-21-03, 11:44 AM	Originally posted by Draco Argentum Actually muscle powered flight is possible for a human. You need pedals, a propellor and lightweight high lift wings. It has been done. Obviously I cheated and used an example not involveing flapping. But if you had Str 50 (which is far beyond physically possible for a human) you could probably fly. Brute force solves anything if you have enough. I would greatly appreciate it if you could give me your source for this. I was under the impression that the numerous attempts to build a machine like this were all failures. They could glide but they couldn't fly. They couldn't get themselves off the ground. When I talk about dragons flying I mean they can lift themselves off the ground, manoeuver in the air, dive on prey and carry things other than themselves. All of these things are accepted as standard for D&D dragons, and for earth legendary dragons as well. I don't mean hang-gliding (using a steep slop or a cliff to achieve height, and using thermals to stay up with little capacity to manouver and no capacity for diving or flight attacks, [i]walking[/b] back up the hill when the "flight" is over).
heretic888 08-21-03, 07:47 PM	First, we have to assume that, in the real world, there is no such thing as a "sixth sense" that warns people of danger. No human being can react to something that doesn't register on his five senses (sight, hearing, touch, smell, taste). Yes, I believe that "intuition" exists, but only as subconscious processing of data that the five senses pick up. Agreed? No. I can speak from personal experience that this is blatantly untrue. I have also seen rather impressive displays of "sixth sense" awareness among upper level practitioners of Ninpo. For example, the sakkijutsu test for a fifth degree black belt in which the student is required to dodge a sword stroke from behind.
Draco Argentum 08-22-03, 01:37 AM	Originally posted by kiwidoc I would greatly appreciate it if you could give me your source for this. I was under the impression that the numerous attempts to build a machine like this were all failures. They could glide but they couldn't fly. They couldn't get themselves off the ground. Here (http://www.unb.ca/web/transpo/mynet/1097carlson.html) is a summary of some human powered flight achievements.
Solaris 08-22-03, 01:50 AM	Originally posted by heretic888 I have also seen rather impressive displays of "sixth sense" awareness among upper level practitioners of Ninpo. For example, the sakkijutsu test for a fifth degree black belt in which the student is required to dodge a sword stroke from behind. I bet they're not required to do it with all five senses deadened, though. Because they'd get cut down.
Nerfix 08-22-03, 01:52 AM	Originally posted by Solaris I bet they're not required to do it with all five senses deadened, though. Because they'd get cut down. But you aren't saying that you can't feel other peoples stare at the back of your neck...?
Draco Argentum 08-22-03, 02:03 AM	This (http://ravenproject.org//html/faq.shtml) link supports take off and landing.
Eyes in the Darkness 08-22-03, 12:21 PM	To try and resolve the off topic discussion of ninjas and sixth sense, any self respecting ninja would have Uncanny Dodge in D&D world so in the sniper situation they would still recieve their dexterity bonus to AC. However, if one could consider them to be helpless and ignore the needing to be right next to a person to coup de grace them rule, then both the ninja and the commoner could be expected to be dead meat. Also, a low Dex also means that you probably have to concentrate more to keep your feet in front of you so you follow a much more easily predicted path than a person with average dexterity who might for no expected reason do a little skip or hop just cause he can, thus increasing the chance of missing him. Hopefully that will help resolve that argument so that the real discussion, the mechanics of dragon-flight, can be the one being discussed.
Bacon and Eggs 08-22-03, 12:35 PM	Originally posted by Tenzhi They biologically generate a weak astral field that allows them to move on the Prime Material Plane just as if they were in the Astral plane. Or something. The important part is that they fly without wings. Now I am going to quote this for the Astral part. Why is dragons blood so valuable? Is it laced with magic or some other enhanced substance. Could it be in fact that the dragon resonates so much magic that it does have enough pull in the Astral/Ethreal(Alternate) world to affect it in the Prime material. Thus making the wings inconsequental and allowing for more variables to be introduced to provide lift and pull. Yeah, yeah, I know that this may be a magical based excuse but I've seen enough Star Treks where the starships were just a tiny bit out of phase with the real world and stuff happened.
kiwidoc 08-22-03, 12:36 PM	Draco Argentum I stand corrected. I knew there were unclaimed prizes for human powered flight, but I didn't realise that earlier prizes for much smaller flights had been claimed. The articles you gave us showed that a human can manage flight - but a very limited type of flight. It is nothing like the soaring and swooping of the dragons, and these flights were also much slower than a dragon. Using the square/cube rule we can work out the following rough ratios for the difference between a 6ft man and an average size mature dragon at around 24 ft. Weight - A dragon is of the order of 60 times as heavy as a man Strength based on number of muscle fibers - A dragon is only 15 or 16 times as strong as a man. Now these are only rough figures but they do give us an idea of the problem. It is going to be 4 or 5 times harder for a dragon to provide the power needed to fly properly - lifting its own weight, manouvering, diving, carrying prey, acheiving rapid speeds etc. As these articles show humans have struggled to achieve even very basic "flight" powered soley by their own muscles. The prizes for flights that are still rather pathetic compared to what dragons can do are still unclaimed. This supports the idea that dragons need more than ordinary physics to be able to fly.
Tenzhi 08-22-03, 12:42 PM	Originally posted by Bacon and Eggs Yeah, yeah, I know that this may be a magical based excuse but I've seen enough Star Treks where the starships were just a tiny bit out of phase with the real world and stuff happened. Strangely enough I was thinging of Subspace rather than the Astral Plane when I posted that, and I had a heck of a time deciding which was more like Subspace - the Astral Plane or the Ethereal.
Ropp'cht'cht 08-22-03, 12:52 PM	Topics like this will hopefully make the new Draconomicon that much more exciting. :D
heretic888 08-22-03, 01:51 PM	I bet they're not required to do it with all five senses deadened, though. Because they'd get cut down. Wrong. I have personally witnessed higher-level practitioners bat rubber shuriken out of the air with their bokken (wooden training swords) while blind-folded AND wearing earplugs. With an unusually high success rate, I might add. Unless..... you think they can smell the exact the position of the shuriken and have their bodies react accordingly?? By the way, nothing is 'required' in the training. You aren't forced into doing anything against your will.
Elendur 08-22-03, 02:40 PM	Originally posted by heretic888 Wrong. I have personally witnessed higher-level practitioners bat rubber shuriken out of the air with their bokken (wooden training swords) while blind-folded AND wearing earplugs. With an unusually high success rate, I might add. Unless..... you think they can smell the exact the position of the shuriken and have their bodies react accordingly?? Oh, so he just used the Force then. For a minute there I thought you were suggesting something impossible.
heretic888 08-22-03, 03:56 PM	Oh, so he just used the Force then. For a minute there I thought you were suggesting something impossible. Cavemen thought creating fire by manual human means was impossible, too. That is, until some clever guy actually starting rubbing two sticks together. Accounts of the sakkijutsu test are well-known and well-documented. As are accounts of Lee's so-called "two inch punch" and similar feats by Aikido founder Morihei Ueshiba. Don't knock something just because its outside your box.
Delfedd 08-22-03, 04:07 PM	yeah, i watched this cartoon movie called Flight of Dragons, and it turns out that dragons fly kinda like a balloon floats and breathe fire because of a electric spark thing on their tongue
Mirtek 08-22-03, 05:09 PM	Originally posted by Elendur Oh, so he just used the Force then. For a minute there I thought you were suggesting something impossible. Well, this test comes right before they are required to run up walls and make 90 feet jumps
DrakeRunner 08-22-03, 08:11 PM	*edit: Wrong button* As for Dolphins, Porpoises are damn close in real life terms, don't see why the stats wouldn't work too
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM 08-22-03, 08:59 PM	Originally posted by Mirtek Well, this test comes right before they are required to run up walls and make 90 feet jumps And right before that, they divide the square root of -1 by 0 and add the exact amount of Pi. :P
Draco Argentum 08-22-03, 09:55 PM	Originally posted by kiwidoc Strength based on number of muscle fibers - A dragon is only 15 or 16 times as strong as a man. Here is the issue. The absolute weakest colossal Dragon, the Silver, has a Str score of 43. Thats a 51200lb light load. A human has a 33lb light load. Therefore in D&D strength is not related to number of muscle fibres in the same way as RL. This makes a Dragon 1500 odd times stronger than a human. If we can pedal to fly a Dragon could likely flap (flapping is more efficient than propellors). So the real issue isn't that Dragons in D&D can't fly, its that Dragons are far stronger than a similarly sized RL creature.
RhoxandRoll 08-23-03, 12:37 PM	Oh my god this is DnD:eek: , FANTASY! Get a hold of your selves. Who cares about physics in DnD!!!!!!!!!!!!! And if you're going to play that ball I guess that we should ban: *Magic *Extraordinary Effects *All Ghosts and Zombies *And everything else tha dosen't "fit" the laws of science and physics.:behold: :behold: :behold: :mad: :mad: :mad: [Edited for masked vulgarity - WizO_Snark]
kiwidoc 08-23-03, 01:48 PM	Rhoxandroll - it is obvious that a large number of people care about this issue, both on this board and on others where this topic has been discussed :D Nobody is saying we want to ban dragons, we are just talking about whether their flight needs supernatural/magical/non-physics power. As it is obvious we are enjoying this discussion, and you aren't why not just simply leave :) Feel free to close the door behind you . By the way it is against the Code of Conduct to swear - even if you use ***'s to get round the word filter.
Nerfix 08-23-03, 02:49 PM	I am seriosly getting vibes that indicate that "magic" is a bad thing and it should not exist. I think i will call "magic" badword from now on. Just why you need/want to know is Dragon's flight badwordical/non-badwordical? I seriously believe that dragons can't fly without badword.
BuffaloCheese 08-24-03, 02:29 AM	Wanting to know if a dragon can fly without magic is mostly a curiosity thing. Personally I find it quite interesting but not terribly important. One could also say somthing like "It's super-science, it doesn't matter," because there is so much that we don't understand. For example if you wanted lung dragon's (OA) flight to be non-magical you could call the pearl in their brains a semi-organic anti-gravity generator.:D It could be possible after all.
Nerfix 08-24-03, 03:11 AM	Oh well... Time to quote my dad: "There isn't anything supernatural, there are only things we don't understand." (i believe someone else has said that too.)
kiwidoc 08-24-03, 08:27 PM	Originally posted by BuffaloCheese Wanting to know if a dragon can fly without magic is mostly a curiosity thing. Personally I find it quite interesting but not terribly important. One could also say somthing like "It's super-science, it doesn't matter," because there is so much that we don't understand. For example if you wanted lung dragon's (OA) flight to be non-magical you could call the pearl in their brains a semi-organic anti-gravity generator.:D It could be possible after all. This is exactly the way I feel. I am not at all opposed to magic or other supernatural type forces enabling a creature to fly. In fact I rather like the idea, as it adds extra ... well for want of a better word mystique to dragons. I find it interesting to take a closer look at some of the things we take for granted, and judging by the response I get when I ask this sort of question so do a fair few other people. This doesn't mean we see magic as a "bad word" or that we hate magic - it just means we like to dabble in science, throw a few ideas around and solve a few puzzles (or maybe leave them unsolved). Maybe this will end up adding a bit more depth to our worlds, or maybe it is just a bit of fun for us. Whichever I am sure people will keep on asking questions like this for a very long time :)
Gez 08-24-03, 10:56 PM	http://www.nutkinland.com/images/smilies/smiles/think.gif Are you preparing a dragon section on your site?
Cymric 08-25-03, 01:23 AM	Feather fall (immune to dispell lets just say a dragon can create that kind of spell) and propulsion by flaping big wings. Is that simple enough?
Draco Argentum 08-25-03, 03:57 AM	Originally posted by kiwidoc or maybe it is just a bit of fun for us. Whichever I am sure people will keep on asking questions like this for a very long time :) It is at least two scads more fun than some of the arguemnts around the boards. I hope there are more questions like this, they give some form of point to sticking around.
Elendur 08-25-03, 01:02 PM	Besides being fun, the D&D rules give us this puzzle. They say that a dragon's flight is natural, and not impeded by an anti-magic field. So the argument of 'it's just magic!' is not only uninteresting, it goes against the D&D rules.
DrakeRunner 08-25-03, 02:32 PM	Fine, here is a completely rational idea that no one will accept because it isn't cool. They roar loudly. To cover up the massive farting. Yes, they propel themselves by farting. Blat blat brrapp flappityfrap. Farting. The tremendous expulsion of gas gives them enough lift that their wings can take over and provide full flight.
Nerfix 08-25-03, 02:37 PM	Originally posted by DrakeRunner Fine, here is a completely rational idea that no one will accept because it isn't cool. They roar loudly. To cover up the massive farting. Yes, they propel themselves by farting. Blat blat brrapp flappityfrap. Farting. The tremendous expulsion of gas gives them enough lift that their wings can take over and provide full flight. :rofl: AHAHAHAHHAAA! HAHAHA! Hihihhihi. Heee... :bigeyes: snifle, snifle sob WAAAAAHHHH!!! Is it so hard to even think that a 1/100000th of the Dragon's flight is badwordical(dodges rocks)?
heretic888 08-25-03, 02:49 PM	Well, this test comes right before they are required to run up walls and make 90 feet jumps And right before that, they divide the square root of -1 by 0 and add the exact amount of Pi. Comments like this make me just smile and shake my head in amusement. Feats like the Bujinkan sakkijutsu test, Morihei Ueshiba's "no touch" skills, and Bruce Lee's "two-inch punch" are very well-documented. The fact that you rigidly deny their possibility without having even researched the claims in the slightest is proof of nothing more than a closed mind unwilling to accept new ideas. It's silly, really. Laterz.
Regdar6 08-25-03, 04:27 PM	It has been said before, dragons are just too big to fly. Even though they can fly in an antibadwrod field, they can cuz thats what all the game designers said. In the real world, there is no way they could fly, exluding some radical concepts (not farting)
Regdar6 08-25-03, 04:52 PM	Hope, if I'm not mistaken, you lose your dex bonus/penalty when your are flat footed. If you keep you penalty, thats wierd, but if I'm nto mistaken, you dont incure that penalty. So, it is the same difficulty to hit a dex 3 and a dex 10 peasant. Therefore, I go back to my old argument that the wiard cant hold anything steady, and might fire when the peasent is moving or whatever, andthere is a chance he will fitdchit or something and miss.
Mirtek 08-25-03, 05:54 PM	Originally posted by Regdar6 Hope, if I'm not mistaken, you lose your dex bonus/penalty when your are flat footed. If you keep you penalty, thats wierd, but if I'm nto mistaken, you dont incure that penalty.. You keep your penalty while flat footed. You lose you BONUS, but a PENALTY is no BONUS. It's also somewhere in the official FAQ
Dragoninawheelchair 08-25-03, 06:09 PM	I think dragons use a combination of the both physics and magic, their bodies are shaped rather well for flight, considering their size they are still very lean and muscular creatures. Hollow bones are probably true, since a lot of older reptiles (dinosaurs) have hollow bones, especially the predatorial variants. I also do not think that the put the wing span into account of the creatures size catagory. If that were true then winged elves would be large creatures. The flight itself is magic in my mind, through the magical blood that flows through their viens they can lighten their load. The wings are their for maneuvering and not for actual flight, such as a rutter. I do not think that you can aruge that a fantasy creature can not do what it is suppose to do. If D&D was suppose to be analyzed by science there would be a game out there that combines magic and science ;)
Adrez Nesnsid 08-25-03, 07:01 PM	Originally posted by RhoxandRoll Oh my god this is DnD:eek: , FANTASY! Get a hold of your selves. Who f***ing cares about physics in DnD!!!!!!!!!!!!! And if you're going to play that ball I guess that we should ban: *Magic *Extraordinary Effects *All Ghosts and Zombies *And everything else tha dosen't "fit" the laws of science and physics.:behold: :behold: :behold: :mad: :mad: :mad: Well, weather its possible or not does, or, at least, should make a difference. If its not possible than it at least SHOULD be a supernatural ability and not work in an antimagic field.
DrakeRunner 08-25-03, 07:33 PM	Originally posted by Regdar6 It has been said before, dragons are just too big to fly. Even though they can fly in an antibadwrod field, they can cuz thats what all the game designers said. In the real world, there is no way they could fly, exluding some radical concepts (not farting) Told you. Its not radical, but it's not cool, so people just wave me off as a joker and continue arguing. Well you wanna know what I think? ROAR!!! (frap frap frappp blat ptttt wwnnnrr)
Gez 08-25-03, 07:43 PM	Just a thought: If a dragon's flight is not supernatural because antimagic field don't prevent it, then undeath is not supernatural either because undead don't become "just plain dead" in an AMF.
kiwidoc 08-25-03, 08:16 PM	Originally posted by DrakeRunner Fine, here is a completely rational idea that no one will accept because it isn't cool. They roar loudly. To cover up the massive farting. Yes, they propel themselves by farting. Blat blat brrapp flappityfrap. Farting. The tremendous expulsion of gas gives them enough lift that their wings can take over and provide full flight. Hey believe it or not someone beat you to this idea :D Get hold of a Terry Pratchett book called "Guards, guards" - it shouldn't be too hard as it was a major best seller. He described a form of dragon that flies by flaming at the wrong end :smirk:
Hope 08-26-03, 12:43 AM	Originally posted by Gez Just a thought: If a dragon's flight is not supernatural because antimagic field don't prevent it, then undeath is not supernatural either because undead don't become "just plain dead" in an AMF. Exactly. The way I see it, undead and flying dragons are "acceptable" according to the natural laws that goven the D&D world (let's call it Greyhawk, for simplicity). It's simply part of how the world works. The natural laws (I don't want to call them "physics") accept, and indeed encourage, the existence of massive flying dragons, walking corpses powered by negative energy, and peasants with ninja senses. There's no magic involved here, just the physical reality of a world created to support a game of high fantasy.
Nekokaze 08-26-03, 01:04 AM	One thing to point out is how 2E's Planescape dealt with this. There was that element of Material planes called "physical factor" that ranged from 10 to -10, 0 being the standard. It was supposed to be a measure of how sciency or "real" the world was, but the higher values got weird too. 0: "Language possible for most intelligent creatures. Animation of inanimate objects possible. Size does not limit flight ability or intelligence." 1: "Flight possible for most winged creatures..." 3: "Flight possible for large hollow-boned creatures..." 5: (20th century, it's said) "Flight restricted to small hollow-boned creatures..." So it's not magical, and it's not in defiance of physics, because there is a lower level of physics... or something. :D There's something similar in 3E, but it's not quite as precise, if I recall correctly.
Tenzhi 08-26-03, 06:50 AM	Originally posted by Elendur So the argument of 'it's just magic!' is not only uninteresting, it goes against the D&D rules. Decidedly untrue, as there is "magic" (read: supernatural energies) that can persist within an Anti-Magic field - the magic that fuels undeath and magic cast by certain Divine beings for instance.
Gez 08-26-03, 08:47 AM	Originally posted by Tenzhi Decidedly untrue, as there is "magic" (read: supernatural energies) that can persist within an Anti-Magic field - the magic that fuels undeath and magic cast by certain Divine beings for instance. Exactly. Campaign settings are magic worlds, after all. Magic is deep ingrained in them. There's a magic that is so deeply fused with these world's reality that it's just as well physics. The way I see it, only "superficial" magic is affected by AMF. This superficial magic is the one that is used to change The Way Things Are. Like changing the position of someone (teleport), turning air into fire (fireball), creating matter out of nothing (create food and water), and so on. But the magic that, to the contrary, support The Way Things Are is deep magic. A powerful magic, one that probably only the Creator Principle of the Universe may wield. A magic certainly out of reach of anything below the rank of overdeity, for using it would bring sweeping changes to the whole universe. That's what I was saying before with my "caster level of the universe". If you were to indeed dispel a dragon's flight, all dragons would become unable to flight, because you would have broken the Law That Says That Dragon Flight. By the way, if your campaign world is not a planet but something more funky (like Discworld, for example), it's probable that gravity is magic also. Even without going to such extremes, it's probable that climates and terrains in your world are magic too, for few gamers draw the map of their world according to plate tectonics and global climates theories.
Elendur 08-26-03, 12:01 PM	If you want to label what D&D calls 'magic' as 'superficial magic', not to be confused with 'universal magic', fine. I'm just saying that any explanation offered of dragon flight that includes 'superficial magic'(ie magic as explained in the rules), such as feather fall, levitation, telekinesis, can't be correct. That's why non magic explanations are interesting to discuss. Like hollow bones, hot gases, farting, trying to hit the ground and missing, etc. You can say that the magic of the universe makes everything fantasic possible, but that hardly makes for much board discussion. <start thread> "Hey guys, ever wonder how X in D&D works?" "Certainly, the magic of the universe makes it work." "Thanks" <end of thread>
Nerfix 08-26-03, 12:06 PM	Originally posted by Elendur You can say that the magic of the universe makes everything fantasic possible, but that hardly makes for much board discussion. <start thread> "Hey guys, ever wonder how X in D&D works?" "Certainly, the magic of the universe makes it work." "Thanks" <end of thread> You think that is a bad thing, huh?
jasper 08-26-03, 01:40 PM	very easy dragons are hard head, opionionated and never took physics! so they don't know they can't fly.
Bacon and Eggs 08-26-03, 01:44 PM	Taking the Brothers of Warner Physics theory there eh? :P
kiwidoc 08-26-03, 08:16 PM	Lets recap the square/cube law * A creatures weight/mass goes up in proportion to the cube of its height/length * The power of a creatures muscles is governed by the number of fibers, not by their length. This is proportional to the cross sectional area of the muscle, which in turn is proportional to the square of its height/length. * The area of its wings goes up in proportion to the square of its height/length. A look at the monster manual shows me that the weight of huge creatures vs the weight of medium size creatures follows this law - not exactly but the figures are in the right ball park. A mature adult Gold Dragon is in the top half of the HUGE category. Huge animals are around 4 times as long as a human (medium), and around 64 times the mass. Using the square/cube law we would expect its strength to be 16 times that of a human. It isnt - it is only 3 times. So not only do we have problems with the ratio of wingspan to weight, dragons aren't strong enough to fly :) There are many, many ways in which different worlds can get round this problem. You can evoke magic, different laws of physics, other supernatural causes. I find the ideas posted here fascinating and inventive - well done chaps and chapesses :D However, the bottom line is that if a Dragon turned up somewhere over Manchester it wouldn't soar like an eagle - it would drop like a brick!
Hope 08-26-03, 10:44 PM	Originally posted by kiwidoc A mature adult Gold Dragon is in the top half of the HUGE category. Huge animals are around 4 times as long as a human (medium), and around 64 times the mass. Using the square/cube law we would expect its strength to be 16 times that of a human. It isnt - it is only 3 times. Remember that ability scores aren't linear. Somebody with Strength 15 can lift exactly twice as much as a character with Strength 10, and this pattern for +5 Strength repeats itself throughout the table (except for below 10). Thus a +5 to Strength means that you're twice as strong. Presumably we can apply the same pattern to the other ability scores, so somebody with Int 15 is "twice as smart" (whatever that means) as an average person. Thus, if a mature adult gold dragon has Strength 30 (as I'm assuming from your comparison), it is, indeed, 16 times as strong as a human with Strength 10.
celtredleg 08-26-03, 10:45 PM	Great thread. I have always believed in having some understanding of how things work. In other than hack and slash, players frequintly ask awkward questions and it was good to see a discusion of other than "its magic so dont question it" Hope you ask some more. and those who obviously arnt interested dont bother to post.
Draco Argentum 08-27-03, 01:53 AM	Originally posted by kiwidoc A mature adult Gold Dragon is in the top half of the HUGE category. Huge animals are around 4 times as long as a human (medium), and around 64 times the mass. Using the square/cube law we would expect its strength to be 16 times that of a human. It isnt - it is only 3 times. Only if you don't check the carrying capacity assotiated with the beings in question. (light loads) Dragon: 4256 lb Human: 33 lb Thats 129 times stronger so the square cube law dosen't apply at all. That's why they can fly.
kiwidoc 08-27-03, 06:40 AM	Thanks for pointing that out Draco - but it does raise another issue altogther. You would expect dragons to be 64 times as strong as humans, but they are 129 times as strong. So maybe we should be asking "Why are dragons so strong?" :D
Nerfix 08-27-03, 01:13 PM	Originally posted by kiwidoc Thanks for pointing that out Draco - but it does raise another issue altogther. You would expect dragons to be 64 times as strong as humans, but they are 129 times as strong. So maybe we should be asking "Why are dragons so strong?" :D Because of the huge, bulking, handsome, sweet muscles of the 3.5 Dragons. Look at the Red and the Silver.
Elendur 08-27-03, 02:01 PM	Not all dragons are supremely strong. A young white dragon is a medium creature with a strength of 15. Would that be enough to get off the ground?
Nerfix 08-27-03, 02:56 PM	Originally posted by Elendur Not all dragons are supremely strong. A young white dragon is a medium creature with a strength of 15. Would that be enough to get off the ground? Young White is not that big creature, and with other aerodynamic things mixed in, they could just fly thru combination of strength, wings, hollow bones and big lungs. And we always have badword(dodges gunfire).
incarnadine 08-27-03, 03:56 PM	In the case that anyone still cares about reality: There have been found prehistoric birds that were as large as the gargantuan red dragon. These birds were indeed capable of flight and did so with a very big wing span and ... yes hollowed bones and all that Jazz. No bad words though.
Nerfix 08-27-03, 03:59 PM	Originally posted by incarnadine There have been found prehistoric birds that were as large as the gargantuan red dragon. *puts alunium hat on, pulls out his psychoelektrokinetistick Kalashnikov and goes hiding in his Y2K bunker* End is tonight, end is tonight, end is tonight... Tonight is the night... It's the night of Red Planet... THEY'RE HERE! AHHHHH!
Gez 08-27-03, 04:37 PM	Originally posted by kiwidoc Thanks for pointing that out Draco - but it does raise another issue altogther. You would expect dragons to be 64 times as strong as humans, but they are 129 times as strong. So maybe we should be asking "Why are dragons so strong?" :D Because they're supposed to be strong (after all, they're incarnation of might, magical might but also physical might), hence they're twice as strong as a comparatively-sized human. And you didn't answer my question: Are you planning a dragon page on your site?
Draco Argentum 08-27-03, 10:31 PM	Originally posted by Nerfix Because of the huge, bulking, handsome, sweet muscles of the 3.5 Dragons. Look at the Red and the Silver. Yeah, they are good looking aren't they. The ladies like them, thats for sure. :D I'd have to conclude that a young white is less likely to fly than the bigger Dragons. They are still twice as strong as a human so if they were light then maybe.
Insanity 08-27-03, 11:39 PM	Originally posted by incarnadine In the case that anyone still cares about reality: There have been found prehistoric birds that were as large as the gargantuan red dragon. These birds were indeed capable of flight and did so with a very big wing span and ... yes hollowed bones and all that Jazz. The largest known pterosaur was Quetzalcoatlus, which had a wingspan of 10 to 12 meters (about 40 feet). It is believe to have been capable of powered flight, although its wing shape is more consistent with that of gliding birds such as gulls and albatrosses. Definitely a large flyer, but not of garguatuan size yet, its estimated body weight is about 200 kg (~440 lbs). Bird wing bones have been found in Argentina with humerus measuring 22 inches, giving a estimate wingspan of 25 feet. The feathers alone are estimated to have been 5 feet long and 8 inches wide.
kiwidoc 08-28-03, 05:27 PM	Insanity we have already been through this - the size of wingspan vs body size; a wingspan of 25 feet is probably the upper limit; the fact that these large fliers weren't very good at flyng and cannot perform all the manouvers a dragon can; the square/cube law etc The bottom line is that although these fliers are huge by the standards of today's birds they are still TINY compared to a dragon. You can't use the fact that the flew to say a dragon can.
Insanity 08-28-03, 10:17 PM	kiwidoc - I don't believe I had stated that these facts supported flying dragons. It was in response to a post stating that prehistoric birds existed that were of the size of a gargantaun dragon. This is not true. I was stating that the largest known flier to have existed had an estimated wingspan of 40 ft, no where near that in size of a gargantuan dragon. I don't believe anything of the massive sizes or weights described in the MM could be capable of flight in the same manner as birds and bats. The shape and size of wings greatly influence how a flier flies. The necessary wingspan can be calculated based on body weights. By looking at data from existing fliers, a flier weighing 250,000+ lbs, a Colossal size creature by D&D terms, with wings approximate to a blue heron, would need a wingspan well over 1,000 feet.
Draco Argentum 08-29-03, 12:53 AM	The wing size required depends on the coefficient of lift the shape provides. Does anyone really want to do a CFD simulation of a Dragon's wing?
Insanity 08-29-03, 06:48 AM	There are two factors in determining how and if a bird can fly. The aspect ratio which is the ratio between the length of the wing over the width of the wing. Wings with a high aspect ratio are narrow and long, much like an albatross, which has a ratio of 18:1. Wings with a low ratio are short and broad, like a pheasant, which has a ratio around 4.5:1. High aspect ratio wings are good for gliding, however cannot acclerate quickly or maneuver well. Long wings cannot be flapped quickly. Low aspect ratio wings can acclerate quickly, maneuver well, but are poor at gliding. It is also a measure of drag vs lift by the wing. The higher the ratio, the less drag. The wing load is the ratio of the body weight over the wing surface area (g/cm^2). A low wing load means less power or energy is needed to keep the bird aloft. A high wing load means more energy is needed in flapping the wings. Some examples: Swifts: AR: 11 narrow wings with low drag, WL: 0.16 low load means less power needed to substain flight. Heron: AR: 7.4 moderate ratio, moderate drag, WL: 2.5 very high load, means a lot of power needed, produces a laborous flight. Albatross: AR 18 very narrow wing, very low drag, WL: 1.7 high load requires more power to substain flight. Eagle: AR 6.6 moderate ratio, moderate drag, WL: 0.71 moderate load, less power needed. Using these factors, it can be calculated what size and shape wings a dragon, or any creature, would need based on the desired aspect ratio and wing load. Are dragons gliders like an albatross? Are they poor flyers like a pheasant? Do they have a laborous flight like a heron? Or do they stay aloft with ease like a swift? I personally would like to think they are capable of some soaring, like eagles or herons, so the aspect ratio would be 7.4, same as a heron. Also using a wing load of a heron, 2.5, meaning flapping takes a lot of energy, a creature weighing 2,000 lbs (1 ton) would need a wingspan of about 100 ft with each wing being about 7 ft wide. This creature is not as heavy as the colossal dragons in the MM, but if capable of flight, it would be a formidable predator. If it had wings more like a pheasant (aspect ratio 4.5), better for quick accleration and maneuvering, and a slightly higher wing load of 3, it wingspan would be about 75 ft with each wing about 8-9 ft wide.
kiwidoc 08-29-03, 09:03 AM	Onsanity - Sorry I misunderstood you. :embarrass Am I forgiven? I have been lucky enough to see albatrosses flying - and they don't so much fly as glide. They flap their wings one or two times to catch the wind and then they just soar wings wide spread. I saw one hovering on a thermal flap its wings just once and it sped out to sea, overtaking a fast moving trawler. Whatever helps the dragons to fly I believe their flight would be like this - saoring on the winds wings spread wide; using the occasional flap and curling; culrling and dipping their wings to change direction.
incarnadine 08-29-03, 11:04 AM	Originally posted by kiwidoc You can't use the fact that the flew to say a dragon can. Can you prove that dragons CAN exist?
Nerfix 08-29-03, 11:17 AM	Originally posted by incarnadine Can you prove that dragons CAN exist? must...resist...urge...conspiracy...theo ries...
Ganoch_the_Deceiver 08-29-03, 12:09 PM	:confused:
Nerfix 08-29-03, 12:14 PM	Originally posted by Ganoch_the_Deciever :confused: My absolutely mixed-up conspiracy theories... Dragons exist(ed)! Scientists lie! Dragons are the astronaut gods of Däniken! All bow down to and worship Dragons!
Insanity 08-29-03, 07:17 PM	Originally posted by kiwidoc Onsanity - Sorry I misunderstood you. :embarrass Am I forgiven? I have been lucky enough to see albatrosses flying - and they don't so much fly as glide. They flap their wings one or two times to catch the wind and then they just soar wings wide spread. I saw one hovering on a thermal flap its wings just once and it sped out to sea, overtaking a fast moving trawler. Whatever helps the dragons to fly I believe their flight would be like this - soaring on the winds wings spread wide; using the occasional flap and curling; culrling and dipping their wings to change direction. Yes, you are forgiven, no hard feelings. On dragons flying style, I think it would depend on where they lived, much like birds. Those that lived along the seashores would probably have wings like gulls and albatrosses. Those living in forests would be like pheasants and grouses (sp?). The ones living in mountains and open plains would be like eagles and vultures. Also the amount of time that a dragon needed to spend in the air would influence their wing shape and size. A smaller dragon, 500 lbs, with an aspect ratio and wing load similiar to an albatross (15 and 1.7 respectively) would need a wingspan close to 100 ft, with each wing being about 50 ft long and 3 ft wide. Noticed that even though this one is lighter than the last one I posted, its wingspan is greater. However the wings are one third the width. Very narrow wings, good for gliding. Most pterosaurs had wings much like an albatross and would have flown in a similiar manner.
Insanity 09-07-03, 09:51 AM	Using the last dragon has an example (500 lbs, aspect ratio 15, wing load 1.7) it would need to achieve a speed a little over 35 mph to generate enough lift to fly. The other example is the dragon weighing at 2,000 lbs with aspect ratio of 7.4 and wing load of 2.5 would need to achieve a speed of almost 45 mph to generate enough lift. I used a method that is for fixed wing aircraft, so I am not entirely sure if this is accurate, as the lift generated will change with the angle of attack in the wing and density of the air. However, the speeds seem somewhat reasonable.
ebarton 10-30-03, 04:35 PM	There is one way that a dragon could fly without magic that has only had the barest mention in this thread so far. Exotic materials. If you search in science magazines for "anti-gravity", you will find several means for reducing the effects of gravity. Current research hasn't produced any sizable effects yet, but it's possible, and probable, that there are materials that will block most, if not all gravity. If some part of the dragon had a material that blocked, say, 50% of gravity per inch, that would probably be enough to allow it to fly. The larger dragons could also fly, as 4 inches instead of 1 inch would block 94% of gravity. The only question is what part of the dragon contains the material. If it was the scales, that could have interesting consequences for dragonhide armor. However, IMO, there's a very good proof that dragons couldn't fly without magic. Animals have had several hundred million years to evolve on earth. If dragons are possible, then where is the animal that's even remotely similar? Also, about the topic of impossibilities: Originally posted by Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM And right before that, they divide the square root of -1 by 0 and add the exact amount of Pi. :P Square root of -1: i (high school math) Dividing by 0: done quite often by mathematicians Exact amount of Pi: Computations using Pi are left as a + b*Pi
Elessar 10-30-03, 06:01 PM	Originally posted by ebarton There is one way that a dragon could fly without magic that has only had the barest mention in this thread so far. Exotic materials. If you search in science magazines for "anti-gravity", you will find several means for reducing the effects of gravity. Current research hasn't produced any sizable effects yet, but it's possible, and probable, that there are materials that will block most, if not all gravity. If some part of the dragon had a material that blocked, say, 50% of gravity per inch, that would probably be enough to allow it to fly. The larger dragons could also fly, as 4 inches instead of 1 inch would block 94% of gravity. The only question is what part of the dragon contains the material. If it was the scales, that could have interesting consequences for dragonhide armor. Hmm, interesting. someone mentioned "Flight of Dragons" in which dragons ate some type of wierd pixie dust type thing that allowed them to gain lift (and without which they were unable to fly). However, IMO, there's a very good proof that dragons couldn't fly without magic. Animals have had several hundred million years to evolve on earth. If dragons are possible, then where is the animal that's even remotely similar? How remote? (http://www.sirbooga.com/alwt/MALAYSIA/flyingLizard.JPG) (EDIT: Also, non-actuality does not denote impossibility. That is to say, just because there are no forerunners to the archetypal dragon we envision, doesn't mean that if we started a new universe that such a thing could never happen. Evolution would not necessarily repeat itself. In fact, it probably wouldn't.) Also, about the topic of impossibilities: Square root of -1: i (high school math) Dividing by 0: done quite often by mathematicians Exact amount of Pi: Computations using Pi are left as a + b*Pi Okay, class. Now solve for i/0+Pi . ;) EDIT: In response to the whole "It's just magic" flame wa- er, discussion that started at the beginning of the thread, (I may pay for bringing it up and retreat back to my cozy, agreeable art thread at the first sign of resistance) I think that while you can turn magic into a science in certain game worlds, I find it sometimes to be distasteful, indeed corny. If a lost chapter of LOTR is discovered in which Tolkien has Gandalf sit down and expunge on the particulars of magical research, cutting edge pyromancy procedures, and the nature of "magi-physics", I would probably have to stop using this screen name, not go to the next movie, and burn my LOTR boxed set... though I now shudder at the thought ;).
ebarton 10-30-03, 08:46 PM	Originally posted by Elessar How remote? (http://www.sirbooga.com/alwt/MALAYSIA/flyingLizard.JPG) LOL. I stand corrected by draco sp. Of course, without the addition of magic, dragons in RL are limited in size, and don't have any breath weapons.;) I agree with you that making magic into a science can be distastful at times. I usually use a "scientific" magic for the sake of humor or mental exercise. For example, when a PC in my campaign got shrunk by his Rod of Wonder, I explained that it was how the rod recharged. (E=mc^2 provides a LOT of energy).
Boondoggle 10-31-03, 06:26 AM	Ok, as a physics student, math student and general geek, I'm stepping in to cast dispell myth: i/0 + pi is simply undefined. The limit of i/x as x aproaches 0 is positive or negative infinity multiplied by i depending upon whether the limit is approached from 'above' or 'below,' respectively. The pi term simply shifts the plane in which the limits are taken from 0 to pi on the real axis. i/0 nonsense is childsplay. For a real mathematical epiphany, learn what e^(i*pi) equals, and why it does so. And, for the record, mathematicians never divide by zero. The notion of 'gravity resistant' materals is pure fiction. Gravity is the least understood of the four basic forces. Hell, the graviton is the only transmiting particle for which physicists have no direct evidence of its existance. All matter is effected by gravity equally, sorry. As for the idea of treating magic like a science, I advise everyone to take heed of an Aurther C. Clark quote: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Sure, you, as a DM, may not know the science behind the weave, but does that mean it isn't there?
ebarton 10-31-03, 08:26 AM	I hate to correct a physics major on his physics, but please check up on things before you try to dispell things. Try http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993042, http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992611 The first is an article on Dark Energy, which is currently believed by main-stream astrophysicists to come from Dark Matter, a major constituent of our galaxy. The second is an article on research into anti-gravity here on earth and the theory behind it. And actually, i/0 + Pi would be Pi+(Aleph null)*i. In other words, in the real axis, it would still be Pi away from the origin, but on the imaginary axis is at infinity (the first "countable" infinity, if you're interested). Now to get back to polite discussion and the topic, Terry Pratchett has a saying to complement Arthur Clarke's: "Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from science."
Elessar 10-31-03, 12:10 PM	Originally posted by Boondoggle As for the idea of treating magic like a science, I advise everyone to take heed of an Aurther C. Clark quote: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Sure, you, as a DM, may not know the science behind the weave, but does that mean it isn't there? Yes. Well, depending on how you want to treat it. In your opinion, everything can be explained, and if that is how your universe works, that's fine by me. But since historically, the idea of "magic" comes from some sort of a connection to deities or deific realms (some shamans believed that they entered a sort of dreamworld to tap into magical energies), it is better to treat it as an undefineable. I cite the movie Pi, in which the main character tries to find out God's name in a number and ends up drilling a hole in his own head to get it out (sorry if you haven't watched it and I spoiled it for you). Therefore, I will quote myself to supplement the quotes of Terry Pratchett and Arthur C. Clark: "Incapability to distinguish advanced science from magic is sufficient to drive you insane." I also cite Shakespeare's Prospero from The Tempest. Though he is a logical magician, and that logic has brought him to an understanding of magic, magic is understood to be part of a Platonic heirarchy in which grace reigns supreme over logic. NOT saying your "magic = science" campaign is bunk, but realize there are many concrete precedents for handling that differently.
Elessar 10-31-03, 12:20 PM	Originally posted by ebarton LOL. I stand corrected by draco sp. Of course, without the addition of magic, dragons in RL are limited in size, and don't have any breath weapons.;) Yes, but certain cobras can spit their venom, and theoretically, so could that ridged dinosaur from Jurassic Park. Imagine if "fire-breathing" was just a misunderstanding by archaic scholars and what dragons actually did was spit a napalm-like mixture :smirk: . EDIT: P.S. for you scientific types, no I don't believe in dragons.
jasper 10-31-03, 04:21 PM	Why in the world try for a logic and twenty-first century reason. Dragons fly. It wasn’t till AM mention hollow bones and Boron, and that substandard cartoon “Flight of Dragons” mention air chambers did any one worry about it. If you try for a logical scientific reason of certain GAME effects, then you start getting into debates on Infravison, specific heat granulates, instead of reading the GAME rules about Infravison shows body heat but not the heat left from you bare foot prints on the sofa. RMGCLF who states in what book that dragons are part of the old ones. Did come from a splat book, a third party vendor, or just an article in the Dragon as JFYI or think about it article. The idea that people would waste time and ink on trying use science on whether a dragon could fly is just funny and amusing. The topic is nice beer drinking bs. But isn’t nicer and quicker to say It is just magic before rolling to hit the dragon before it pulls out of its dive bomb run and chomps you and your horse in half. IMC regular physics apply until a GAME event makes no sense then it just magic. Writing a thirty page document on the hows and whys of dragon flight is just not my cup of tea. And I just want to slay it and get its loot. Or if DM kill the adventurers and take their loot.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-31-03, 06:28 PM	Query: where else but the seiously heavy fantasy of DnD do we see the uber, football field sized dragon? Standard fantasy dragons are Triceratops sized (between 30 and 50 feet long in the body) Once you put it in this perspective, the idea of having sentience without opposable thumbs is a bigger problem. BTW, Flight of Dragons was a wonderful movie.
jasper 11-03-03, 12:17 PM	Flight of Dragons the cartoon. ack. Another we take a book and create a new story and just keep the names. Nice cartoon IF you never read the book The Dragon and the George.
Scarlet Knight 11-03-03, 03:07 PM	Maybe the world of Greyhawk is smaller than Earth and gravity is weaker. That would make it easier for big dragons to fly plus it would also make it more plausible for high level fighters to survive those hundred foot falls. Of course the dragon's mass would stay the same so it still wouldn't be able to make sharp turns easily. But I haven't taken physics since high school, so I'm not much of an authority.
Elendur 11-04-03, 08:19 PM	Well, the Draconomicon is out, and the official answer is...<drumroll> hollow bones and strong muscles! :rolleyes: Oh well. They also mention dragons using updrafts to stay aloft, which would seem to contradict the part about them using their immensly strong wing muscles keep airborne.
Insanity 12-29-03, 08:16 AM	The Draconomicon states, that the maximum wingspan, which is defined as the measurement from tip to tip of outspread wings, is only 80 feet for a 160,000 lbs Gargantuan blue dragon. Although the overall shape (aspect ratio) looks good from the overhead flying images, the wing load is going to be high. The dragon is going to have a hard flight. But of course, the Draconomicon says that dragons will use thermal updrafts, which soaring birds do as well. I'll have to crunch some numbers soon perhaps.
Insanity 12-29-03, 08:16 AM	Double post
Insanity 12-29-03, 08:17 AM	Triple post
Rogue1stclass 12-29-03, 03:50 PM	Well, there are certain physical realities of D&D that are just different than the real world. It's not even really "magic", it's just different rules. Dragons can fly. Sure, they may have hollow bones and strong muscles and total conversion metabolisms, but none of these are the reasons. After all, Griffons can fly too, as can numerous creatures that would stand no chance of ever getting airborne when confronted with real physics. The actual reason is that flight is just easier to achieve in D&D. Less thrust and lift are required to move more drag. Maybe the air is thicker, maybe there is less gravity, but in all likelihood, it's just that the equations are different. This isn't the only law that changes in fantasy settings. For example, Humans over 8 ft tall have enormous physical problems. Their bones bend, their hearts enlarge, their circulation barely keeps blood in their brains. They are actually quite frail, since their body is under constant stress from it's own weight. And yet in D&D we not only have 10' tall Ogres, but also Giants who with no supernatural aid reach heights of over 20'. This is impossible without radically different physiologies than the average human, but this can't be the case since Ogres (and perhaps Giants) can crossbreed with humans, so must be at the very least in the same Genera. For this to be possible, physics and biology have to be different than we are used to. And let's not forget that acid is considered an energy and physical force isn't. It's a different world with different rules. You just have to accept it for it's own logic.
Adrez Nesnsid 01-26-04, 01:37 PM	Originally posted by RhoxandRoll Oh my god this is DnD:eek: , FANTASY! Get a hold of your selves. Who cares about physics in DnD!!!!!!!!!!!!! And if you're going to play that ball I guess that we should ban: *Magic *Extraordinary Effects *All Ghosts and Zombies *And everything else tha dosen't "fit" the laws of science and physics.:behold: :behold: :behold: :mad: :mad: :mad: [Edited for masked vulgarity - WizO_Snark] What is and isn't physically possible is important in D&D because it is a useful tool for making ad hoc rulings about if vaguely worded effects that aren't specified as being either magical or non-magical can be supressed in an anti-magic field
the_heart 01-28-04, 06:11 AM	Originally posted by kiwidoc * The area of an animal or birds wings goes up according to the square of its length or height. The weight goes ip according to the cube. This means as the size increases the lifting ability of its wings decreases. This is why pterodactyl and albatrosses have truly enormous wing spans compared to their body size. true * Something the size and the weight of a dragon could not fly supported just by its wings. It just couldn't build up enough speed to get sufficient lift force. Even if it had the incredibly rapid metabolism of a humming bird, it couldn't eat enough food to provide the energy needed to power its muscles. Think of the power of the engine needed to lift a hollow, canvas covered shell a quarter of the size of a medium dragon (even if it has four wings not two). also true * Even using the idea of internal chambers filled with lighter than air gases would still be seriously pushing it. If the dragon was shaped like one of those sausage balloons with the main parts of its body being rather tiny then perhaps it could fly. However it wouldn't be able to dart and swoop. that sounds right * Even if you used the combination of air filled chambers and gliding using thermal lifts the dragon would not be able to lift anything else but its own body. yep * A dragons wings would not be strong enough to resist the forces during a dive. They would be shredded and/or torn off. seems to me you've covered all the bases, a dragon could not fly using physics as we know it, no way no how. so it must use either physics we do not know or magic. which ultimately means make it up, or rationalise it, as long as it sounds good, does it matter? dragons are physical impossibilities anyway so why try to come up with several half-azzed explanations that still leaves you with a list of physical impossibilities to answer. my opinion is that there is an elemental connection to the planes and or directly to magic, similar to the force that animates undead and constructs. no hollow bones or ultra light weight scales for me. those things are iron hard and about as dense. no air sacks that reduce it's weight to the point that it's hard to justify it's crush attack. just solid muscle, scale and bone (oh! and lots of teeth and claws). these are monsters in the literal sense. as it is similar to the forces that animates undead it is affected the same way. dispel and AMF don't affect them :) simple yet elegant. it is nearly always preferable to over complicating things. (remember to K.I.S.S.)
Prewa_Draconis 01-28-04, 07:59 PM	I once read a small excerpt from a book that explained to relatively well... Dragons have hollow bones, just like birds do. This helps to reduce their total weight. Another thing is that their stomach and bladder are both filled with Methane gases when they are not in use. This helps to reduce their body weight as well and also kinda helps to explain how they can breathe fire. The author then went on to explain something about there being a sort of "flint and steel" setup in the roof of the dragon's mouth or something like that. With the combination of hollow bones and Methane gases, the Dragon's body weight is reduced enough to allow it's wings to lift it off the ground. If that doesn't offer one type of explaination... then ask yourself this... How does a Gargoyle fly? It's made out of stone. Also... you must remember that this is a completely fictional world... hardly any of the creatures present are possible at all in the real world.
wdarkk 01-28-04, 10:59 PM	Originally posted by wdarkk I wondered at one point if a Dragon can lift an Aircraft carrier. Aircraft Carriers weigh 97000tons, which is 217280019.503lbs. IIRC, one can't carry more than a light load while flying. Thankfully, weight is a "real world quantity" so that multipliers are multiplied. First, divide by x16 for colossal size. 13580001.2189375lbs Now, divide by 4 until we get a number on table 9-1 in the PHB. 3395000.304734375 848750.0761835937 212187.5190458984 53046.8797614746 13261.71994036865 3315.429985092162 828.8574962730405 207.2143740682601 We divided by 4 8 times, so we add 80 to the STR for lifting 233lbs or less as a light load. So a dragon can pick up an aircraft carrier and fly around with it if it has 104 strength, not at all unreasonable in an Epic game. "Make a reflex save vs Aircraft Carrier":smirk: I dug that up from one of my old topics to add more fuel to the fires. In one of my sci-fi settings there's a species with a different and more efficient kind of muscle that that makes them massively stronger than humans. They also have the ability to convert matter into energy (long explanation) allowing them to eat inorganics. Seems similar to some of the theories advanced here. Of course, not even the most powerful of them can lift Aircraft Carriers.