Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Newbisan 02-17-05, 12:21 AM	Ok, here's the setup (very abbreviated). PC's wash up in a new land, come across a trail of dead adventurers in a deep forest. They hear a battle, and see a lone, bloodied Paladin battling a Green Dragon. I want them to be able to join this Paladin, defeat the dragon, and go back with him to his kingdom to be hailed as heroes, leading to the real meat of the adventure. However, it needs to be clear that if not for the (mostly dead) group that preceeded them, they would be toast (basically to help give the Pally claim to salvage rights to most of the loot, which was taken from his King's lands..there will of course be a reward). So, I found my most likely candidate to be a CR 16 mature adult green dragon. I have 6 PCs instead of the stadard 4, all level 11, so I'm hoping they can hold their own against it for a few rounds, and there will be the extra Paladin as well (though I could keep him out of the battle if he would seem to be too helpful). However, I'm curious what state the dragon should be in to serve as a challenge, not an outright deathtrap for the PCs. Would a reduction of hitpoints be enough? Should he have already used his most powerful spells for the day? Basically, question is, what do I need to do to reduce a CR16 green dragon to more of a CR13-14 without altering his abilities (I still want all of his attacks for that "holy crap" response when he attacks).
Morwen 02-17-05, 12:46 AM	A CR16 Dragon would normally be fine for a 6-man 11th level party, provided they were prepared. Since they're not prepared in this case it is difficult to judge, but a reduction of HP, along with the Dragon having spent a few of its spells and/or spell-like abilities, would probably be enough.
digoraccoon 02-17-05, 08:55 AM	A little hit point loss on the dragon and some used up spells would work to represent it's fight with the Pally. I pitted a CR 11 green dragon against a party of seven 7th level characters and they survived (for the most part).
Archangel 02-17-05, 09:16 AM	First of all do not make that fight happen just like that. Dragons are not Orcs. For each dragon encountered there should be some mysticism around. It would be better if they met that Paladin who was following the trail of a rampaging Dragon and then for all of them to find the Dragon in a small village that just got attacked or already destroyed by it. That Dragon then fights them and flyies away when wounded but is easibly tracked to his lair. There the final fight happens. The attack on the village would also explain spent spells and spell like abilities. Also weave a tale of a powerfull wizard that cursed tha Dragon with his dying breath so the Dragon cannot use its breath weapon any longer (and lower its CR to 15).
CzarGarrett 02-17-05, 09:28 AM	It depends on the level of Paladin. If the Paladin is 15+, then the Dragon probably would have 15-20% of HP gone, at least 1 breath use, and ~7 spell slots. Less than 15, we're talking 10% HP gone, probably 1 breath used, and only ~3 spell slots. Either way, its entirely rational for 6 Level 11 PC's to be able to take an already wounded CR 16 Dragon. Hell, you could make it really wounded by having 2 Paladins, and one is dead by the time the PC's get there. While that nearly assures victory for the PCs, it should also severely lessen XP.
Newbisan 02-17-05, 09:58 AM	First of all do not make that fight happen just like that. Dragons are not Orcs. For each dragon encountered there should be some mysticism around. Like I'd mentioned, my scenario above is abbreviated. I have a whole story worked up for the discovery of the dragon, don't worry =). So, most seem to think my PCs will live throught the battle.. so I'm gonna go with it. I'll repost in a few weeks and let you all know how it went!
Ardras 02-17-05, 10:45 AM	Also, could you please post a little bit more about your group. Which class, feats, equipment have they ? This would help to guess the outcome. The SR of the dragon seems to be right, the ac shouldn't be a problem either (heck, if a lvl 11 fighter cant hit AC 30 at least 50% of the time he's dead anyway). The Dragon could even be killed in the first round if you have the right sneak attacker (like a master thrower/invis blade) and the dragon no fortification. I'd say let the dragon have lost about 40hp, used the breath weapon one turn before the ps's arrive, and see if it works. Another Tip: Play the encounter alone using the pc's, and see how well they do. I use this regularly to test if an encounter is fitting for my group.
Ian Demagi 02-18-05, 12:23 AM	Is the Dragon going to stay around and fight to the death? Why? Is the dragon going to stay on the ground? Again why? If the dragon just stays there to be hammered on and sneak attacked, then yeah, The dragon is going down. Is he defeated if he flys away? Also, like some one else wrote, it depends on the PC's. I agree it is more difficult to judge the challenge when there are more than 4 PC's. The best thing is to roll it out yourself to try to get some feel. Ian