CR and ECL [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

CR and ECL [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thoroo44
01-20-08, 03:57 PM In the back of the MM one, it talks about how many character levels to give a monster for each CR: 2 character levels for each CR. So, my CR 13 kobold rogue is level 28, since kobolds are two levels difference from his actual level. I gave him masterwork items only. I worked his stats up: for every six character levels, I gave him +2 in each stat; that is how dragons stats raise. I gave him starting stats of all 12's, plus racial adjustments. I did not give him any epic feats, as his monster CR was not epic. In my game, skill points are retroactive when your inteligence goes up, because you can not cheat and put skill points in slots where your class did not allow as you leveled. This rogue has a lot of skill points. I gave him improved feign. I gave him deft strike and quick recignioter from the complete adventure. I gave her power attack. She takes a move action to feign. She takes a free action to spot for her deft strike. She attacks once a round at the PC's as a full round action. The PC's can not use thier dex, armor or natural armor against her. She power attacks and does 14 sneak attack damage per round with a masterwork small sized dagger.

Does this sound right?
StevenO
01-20-08, 04:26 PM A Kobold Rogue 28 as only a CR 13, that doesn't sound anywhere near right.

A Kobold Rogue 28 is CR 28. Kobolds have no racial HD and advance by character class just like any Human would. You may take -3 CR from NPC classes but PC classes like rogue count 1:1 when figuring CR.

I'd have to do a some reading but is seems you are having a problem with advancing creatures with RACIAL HD and the mess of "associated vs. non-associated" class when added to a more powerful creature. Kobolds don't have either of these problems.
Malek2991
01-20-08, 04:42 PM Unfortunately you read the section wrong, PC class levels add 1 to the CR if they are "directly associated". Since a kobold only has a single HD it is switched out for it's first class level. A level 28 kobold rogue has 0 racial HD + 28 levels of rogue (which are considered directly associated since level 1, because at level 1 his rogue levels exceeded his racial HD) = CR 28.

Adding a level of Druid for example to your character would be a non associated class to your character so the CR would only increase every other level added, until its druid level equaled its rogue level. However note that its ECL would still be the sum of its rogue and Druid levels.

If you used NPC class levels, they are always considered non-associated which means you add 1 to the CR per 2 levels (meaning a 28th level adept would be CR 14).
Thoroo44
01-20-08, 05:03 PM look under the discription of kobold under MM one: level one warrior, CR 1/4; Dwarf cr1/2 warrior1; duergar cr1, level adj 1 warior 1; drow , lvl adj 2, war 1, cr 1; elf war1, cr 1/2.

That all spells like two levels per CR to me.
Malek2991
01-20-08, 05:09 PM look under the discription of kobold under MM one: level one warrior, CR 1/4; Dwarf cr1/2 warrior1; duergar cr1, level adj 1 warior 1; drow , lvl adj 2, war 1, cr 1; elf war1, cr 1/2.

That all spells like two levels per CR to me.

true, but warrior is an NPC class, not a PC class. NPC classes are weaker that's why my example Adept was CR 14, not CR 28. A level 28 kobold, dwarf, elf, gnome, etc... rogue is CR 28.
Thoroo44
01-20-08, 05:12 PM I see. No equipment of my kobold drops his CR, doesn't it?
Thoroo44
01-20-08, 05:37 PM A party of lvl 13 players would decimate a CR 13 kobold level 15 rogue or fighter, wizard, sorc, etc....., if it had no equipment. If I gave all CR 13 kobolds equipment, the party would eventually have too much cash. One CR 13 kobold IS supposed to have non-assosciated class levels in PHB classes, so he would be level 28. He would have an AC of about 19 with masterwork studded leather and a 20 dex. His hit points would be about 238. His will save would be 12. Six players level 13 can easily take this guy down in two rounds, three rounds max. The player getting hit must not take two rounds of getting hit, thats all.
StevenO
01-20-08, 05:41 PM Having no equipment may lower a CR but it depends on the class. Some classes are only hindered without equipment (spellcasters mostly) while others are devestated. However even with minor equipment (masterwork items instead of magic items) will quickly restore much of what a devestated class loses. At most I'd lower a CR -2 for a character due to equipment issues but I'd most likely just rebuild the character at that level with full equipment instead; if you must have that level and don't want to build down to a full equipment character then you probably shouldn't be lowering the CR anyway.
StevenO
01-20-08, 06:03 PM A party of lvl 13 players would decimate a CR 13 kobold level 15 rogue or fighter, wizard, sorc, etc....., if it had no equipment. If I gave all CR 13 kobolds equipment, the party would eventually have too much cash. One CR 13 kobold IS supposed to have non-assosciated class levels in PHB classes, so he would be level 28. He would have an AC of about 19 with masterwork studded leather and a 20 dex. His hit points would be about 238. His will save would be 12. Six players level 13 can easily take this guy down in two rounds, three rounds max. The player getting hit must not take two rounds of getting hit, thats all.

A level 28 rogue should completely DESTROY even a slightly oversized party of 13th character no matter what its race is provided it has any equipment. Hit and fade tactics can drop weapon +14d6 sneak attacks on party members which can kill many weaker characters. With basic saves of +10/+16/+10 and evasion you probably can't count on spells to take it out. Being a Kobold in no way weakens this character and in some ways being small sized with a base speed of 30' may even make it better.

This may be uncalled for but it seems the OP is uninterested in hearing how things don't work as (s)he believes. In all reality you're better off missing high when figuring out a creature's CR after adding additional class levels; that means count PC levels as 1:1 and then adjust downward if needed.

I completely disagree with Malek2991's comment that Druid levels would be "non-associated" for a Kobold with more rogue levels. Counting PC levels as non-associated when the bar is set by another PC class is wrong. Perhaps the character doesn't get much from those Druid levels but it is also possible those few levels are needed to qualify for some PrC that combines them with the "associated" level making the whole stronger.
Thorsbjorn
01-21-08, 02:35 AM A level 28 rogue should completely DESTROY even a slightly oversized party of 13th character no matter what its race is provided it has any equipment. Hit and fade tactics can drop weapon +14d6 sneak attacks on party members which can kill many weaker characters. With basic saves of +10/+16/+10 and evasion you probably can't count on spells to take it out. Being a Kobold in no way weakens this character and in some ways being small sized with a base speed of 30' may even make it better.

This may be uncalled for but it seems the OP is uninterested in hearing how things don't work as (s)he believes. In all reality you're better off missing high when figuring out a creature's CR after adding additional class levels; that means count PC levels as 1:1 and then adjust downward if needed.

I completely disagree with Malek2991's comment that Druid levels would be "non-associated" for a Kobold with more rogue levels. Counting PC levels as non-associated when the bar is set by another PC class is wrong. Perhaps the character doesn't get much from those Druid levels but it is also possible those few levels are needed to qualify for some PrC that combines them with the "associated" level making the whole stronger.

The kobold's +2 racial bonus to Dex, +1 Size bonus to AC, and +1 natural armor bonus actually give it an AC bonus of +3 compared to a similarly-situated human rogue, so the kobold might actually be a slightly better rogue than a human.
Novacat
01-21-08, 06:37 AM Even WotC full acknowledges that the CR system is broken and clunky as hell. What's your point?
StevenO
01-21-08, 06:57 PM The point is that even with minimal equipment a Rogue 28 certainly should be considered to merit more than CR 13.
ppirilla
01-21-08, 11:11 PM Also, if you have more class levels than the CR, the levels suddenly count for +1CR instead of +1/2 CR. (There are I don't know how many different ways of making this work out correctly; I don't think anyone knows which are truely correct...)
mustafar
01-22-08, 06:25 AM Sorry if this is OT...but a level 28 kobold rogue?! Consider the lifespan of a kobold as well as the deeds necessary to make level 28. 378,000 experience points - an average of over 100 experience points per day for 10 years. With that kind of activity, it is also really strange if she would be without powerful magic items. It is also unlikely that someone would have stolen anything from her. :rolleyes:

And a kobold with that background would be a complete legend, and considered a demigod among ordinary kobolds. The Chuck Norris of kobolds, if not Christopher Walken.
Thorsbjorn
01-22-08, 06:20 PM Sorry if this is OT...but a level 28 kobold rogue?! Consider the lifespan of a kobold as well as the deeds necessary to make level 28. 378,000 experience points - an average of over 100 experience points per day for 10 years. With that kind of activity, it is also really strange if she would be without powerful magic items. It is also unlikely that someone would have stolen anything from her. :rolleyes:

And a kobold with that background would be a complete legend, and considered a demigod among ordinary kobolds. The Chuck Norris of kobolds, if not Christopher Walken.

Why would Christopher Walken be more legendary than Chuck Norris? :confused:
mustafar
01-23-08, 01:52 AM Why would Christopher Walken be more legendary than Chuck Norris? :confused:

Because he is the secret end boss of D&D.
Thorsbjorn
01-23-08, 02:10 AM Because he is the secret end boss of D&D.

I don't get it. Is that a reference to the role he played in one of the Batman movies? :confused:
runestar
01-23-08, 06:12 AM Sorry if this is OT...but a level 28 kobold rogue?! Consider the lifespan of a kobold as well as the deeds necessary to make level 28. 378,000 experience points - an average of over 100 experience points per day for 10 years. With that kind of activity, it is also really strange if she would be without powerful magic items. It is also unlikely that someone would have stolen anything from her. :rolleyes:

And a kobold with that background would be a complete legend, and considered a demigod among ordinary kobolds. The Chuck Norris of kobolds, if not Christopher Walken.

You make it sound like they cannot use life-extending magic or anything. ;)
mustafar
01-23-08, 06:14 AM I don't get it. Is that a reference to the role he played in one of the Batman movies? :confused:

No its just silly internet humor! :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ow34SL9ht4

One internet hoax claims he is running for US president. That's like level 28.

http://www.walken2008.com/index.html
ToastedAmphibian
01-23-08, 07:27 PM No its just silly internet humor! :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ow34SL9ht4

One internet hoax claims he is running for US president. That's like level 28.

http://www.walken2008.com/index.html

Wait, does that mean Bob Dole is EPIC?
Thorsbjorn
01-23-08, 08:05 PM Wait, does that mean Bob Dole is EPIC?

Sure, but for doing commercials on ED, not for running for president. :D
mustafar
01-24-08, 01:19 AM Wait, does that mean Bob Dole is EPIC?

Well, he did get experience points in WW2, and then LOTS of role play bonuses in politics. :D
CrimsonDeath
01-24-08, 02:32 AM Having no equipment may lower a CR but it depends on the class. Some classes are only hindered without equipment (spellcasters mostly) while others are devestated. However even with minor equipment (masterwork items instead of magic items) will quickly restore much of what a devestated class loses. At most I'd lower a CR -2 for a character due to equipment issues but I'd most likely just rebuild the character at that level with full equipment instead; if you must have that level and don't want to build down to a full equipment character then you probably shouldn't be lowering the CR anyway.

Why don't you want to give him equipment? A level 15 Kobold is supposed to have 59,000 gp worth of equipment (DMG p. 127), plus a treasure hoard of "standard" value for its CR (some of which may also be equipment it carries and uses).

An NPC with 28 character levels generally has 470,000gp worth of gear (Epic Level Handbook p. 317) in addition to its treasure hoard.

But let's look at what a level 28 Kobold Rogue can do. Suppose you max out his Hide modifier. With average Dexterity, that's +36 to hide, which makes him practically invisible. If he decides to snipe the players, he can take one shot and then make a Hide check at a -20 penalty (total of +16 modifier) as a Move action. A level 13 PC with average Wisdom and max ranks in Spot only has even odds of noticing him. If he is noticed, you've maxed out Bluff (for feinting), so if he really wants to, he can use Bluff to create a distraction (at least a +31 bonus, which the players can only hope to beat if they actually bothered to max out Sense Motive) and then Hide again (this time at the full +36). His attack roll for these sniping shots (assuming a masterwork shortbow and average Strength) is +20 against the PCs' flat-footed AC. That's probably about right for a CR 13, but the 1d4+14d6-2 damage isn't (average of 49.5 damage per hit-- hello saves vs. massive damage). His AC would be low, but that's irrelevant if the PCs can't find him. Give him above-average ability scores, and everything swings a bit more in his favor.

And in case it matters, he does qualify for Epic feats, beginning at level 21.
Thorsbjorn
01-24-08, 02:38 AM Well, he did get experience points in WW2, and then LOTS of role play bonuses in politics. :D

Yes, he had lots of roleplaying experience in Congress. For 35 years he voted for liberal bills and then pretended to be a conservative! :P

Anyway, I think we might be getting a tad off topic... :D
StevenO
01-24-08, 02:25 PM Why don't you want to give him equipment? A level 15 Kobold is supposed to have 59,000 gp worth of equipment (DMG p. 127), plus a treasure hoard of "standard" value for its CR (some of which may also be equipment it carries and uses).
.

See the Original Post and some of the follow ups.

Personally, I'd never deliberately send an under equiped NPC at my party just to avoid the hassle of recalculating what the CR should be when they don't have the proper equipment. In the case of a Good NPC one could just give them Vow of Poverty and that should make the lack of equipment a non-issue when figuring CR.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thoroo44 01-20-08, 03:57 PM	In the back of the MM one, it talks about how many character levels to give a monster for each CR: 2 character levels for each CR. So, my CR 13 kobold rogue is level 28, since kobolds are two levels difference from his actual level. I gave him masterwork items only. I worked his stats up: for every six character levels, I gave him +2 in each stat; that is how dragons stats raise. I gave him starting stats of all 12's, plus racial adjustments. I did not give him any epic feats, as his monster CR was not epic. In my game, skill points are retroactive when your inteligence goes up, because you can not cheat and put skill points in slots where your class did not allow as you leveled. This rogue has a lot of skill points. I gave him improved feign. I gave him deft strike and quick recignioter from the complete adventure. I gave her power attack. She takes a move action to feign. She takes a free action to spot for her deft strike. She attacks once a round at the PC's as a full round action. The PC's can not use thier dex, armor or natural armor against her. She power attacks and does 14 sneak attack damage per round with a masterwork small sized dagger. Does this sound right?
StevenO 01-20-08, 04:26 PM	A Kobold Rogue 28 as only a CR 13, that doesn't sound anywhere near right. A Kobold Rogue 28 is CR 28. Kobolds have no racial HD and advance by character class just like any Human would. You may take -3 CR from NPC classes but PC classes like rogue count 1:1 when figuring CR. I'd have to do a some reading but is seems you are having a problem with advancing creatures with RACIAL HD and the mess of "associated vs. non-associated" class when added to a more powerful creature. Kobolds don't have either of these problems.
Malek2991 01-20-08, 04:42 PM	Unfortunately you read the section wrong, PC class levels add 1 to the CR if they are "directly associated". Since a kobold only has a single HD it is switched out for it's first class level. A level 28 kobold rogue has 0 racial HD + 28 levels of rogue (which are considered directly associated since level 1, because at level 1 his rogue levels exceeded his racial HD) = CR 28. Adding a level of Druid for example to your character would be a non associated class to your character so the CR would only increase every other level added, until its druid level equaled its rogue level. However note that its ECL would still be the sum of its rogue and Druid levels. If you used NPC class levels, they are always considered non-associated which means you add 1 to the CR per 2 levels (meaning a 28th level adept would be CR 14).
Thoroo44 01-20-08, 05:03 PM	look under the discription of kobold under MM one: level one warrior, CR 1/4; Dwarf cr1/2 warrior1; duergar cr1, level adj 1 warior 1; drow , lvl adj 2, war 1, cr 1; elf war1, cr 1/2. That all spells like two levels per CR to me.
Malek2991 01-20-08, 05:09 PM	look under the discription of kobold under MM one: level one warrior, CR 1/4; Dwarf cr1/2 warrior1; duergar cr1, level adj 1 warior 1; drow , lvl adj 2, war 1, cr 1; elf war1, cr 1/2. That all spells like two levels per CR to me. true, but warrior is an NPC class, not a PC class. NPC classes are weaker that's why my example Adept was CR 14, not CR 28. A level 28 kobold, dwarf, elf, gnome, etc... rogue is CR 28.
Thoroo44 01-20-08, 05:12 PM	I see. No equipment of my kobold drops his CR, doesn't it?
Thoroo44 01-20-08, 05:37 PM	A party of lvl 13 players would decimate a CR 13 kobold level 15 rogue or fighter, wizard, sorc, etc....., if it had no equipment. If I gave all CR 13 kobolds equipment, the party would eventually have too much cash. One CR 13 kobold IS supposed to have non-assosciated class levels in PHB classes, so he would be level 28. He would have an AC of about 19 with masterwork studded leather and a 20 dex. His hit points would be about 238. His will save would be 12. Six players level 13 can easily take this guy down in two rounds, three rounds max. The player getting hit must not take two rounds of getting hit, thats all.
StevenO 01-20-08, 05:41 PM	Having no equipment may lower a CR but it depends on the class. Some classes are only hindered without equipment (spellcasters mostly) while others are devestated. However even with minor equipment (masterwork items instead of magic items) will quickly restore much of what a devestated class loses. At most I'd lower a CR -2 for a character due to equipment issues but I'd most likely just rebuild the character at that level with full equipment instead; if you must have that level and don't want to build down to a full equipment character then you probably shouldn't be lowering the CR anyway.
StevenO 01-20-08, 06:03 PM	A party of lvl 13 players would decimate a CR 13 kobold level 15 rogue or fighter, wizard, sorc, etc....., if it had no equipment. If I gave all CR 13 kobolds equipment, the party would eventually have too much cash. One CR 13 kobold IS supposed to have non-assosciated class levels in PHB classes, so he would be level 28. He would have an AC of about 19 with masterwork studded leather and a 20 dex. His hit points would be about 238. His will save would be 12. Six players level 13 can easily take this guy down in two rounds, three rounds max. The player getting hit must not take two rounds of getting hit, thats all. A level 28 rogue should completely DESTROY even a slightly oversized party of 13th character no matter what its race is provided it has any equipment. Hit and fade tactics can drop weapon +14d6 sneak attacks on party members which can kill many weaker characters. With basic saves of +10/+16/+10 and evasion you probably can't count on spells to take it out. Being a Kobold in no way weakens this character and in some ways being small sized with a base speed of 30' may even make it better. This may be uncalled for but it seems the OP is uninterested in hearing how things don't work as (s)he believes. In all reality you're better off missing high when figuring out a creature's CR after adding additional class levels; that means count PC levels as 1:1 and then adjust downward if needed. I completely disagree with Malek2991's comment that Druid levels would be "non-associated" for a Kobold with more rogue levels. Counting PC levels as non-associated when the bar is set by another PC class is wrong. Perhaps the character doesn't get much from those Druid levels but it is also possible those few levels are needed to qualify for some PrC that combines them with the "associated" level making the whole stronger.
Thorsbjorn 01-21-08, 02:35 AM	A level 28 rogue should completely DESTROY even a slightly oversized party of 13th character no matter what its race is provided it has any equipment. Hit and fade tactics can drop weapon +14d6 sneak attacks on party members which can kill many weaker characters. With basic saves of +10/+16/+10 and evasion you probably can't count on spells to take it out. Being a Kobold in no way weakens this character and in some ways being small sized with a base speed of 30' may even make it better. This may be uncalled for but it seems the OP is uninterested in hearing how things don't work as (s)he believes. In all reality you're better off missing high when figuring out a creature's CR after adding additional class levels; that means count PC levels as 1:1 and then adjust downward if needed. I completely disagree with Malek2991's comment that Druid levels would be "non-associated" for a Kobold with more rogue levels. Counting PC levels as non-associated when the bar is set by another PC class is wrong. Perhaps the character doesn't get much from those Druid levels but it is also possible those few levels are needed to qualify for some PrC that combines them with the "associated" level making the whole stronger. The kobold's +2 racial bonus to Dex, +1 Size bonus to AC, and +1 natural armor bonus actually give it an AC bonus of +3 compared to a similarly-situated human rogue, so the kobold might actually be a slightly better rogue than a human.
Novacat 01-21-08, 06:37 AM	Even WotC full acknowledges that the CR system is broken and clunky as hell. What's your point?
StevenO 01-21-08, 06:57 PM	The point is that even with minimal equipment a Rogue 28 certainly should be considered to merit more than CR 13.
ppirilla 01-21-08, 11:11 PM	Also, if you have more class levels than the CR, the levels suddenly count for +1CR instead of +1/2 CR. (There are I don't know how many different ways of making this work out correctly; I don't think anyone knows which are truely correct...)
mustafar 01-22-08, 06:25 AM	Sorry if this is OT...but a level 28 kobold rogue?! Consider the lifespan of a kobold as well as the deeds necessary to make level 28. 378,000 experience points - an average of over 100 experience points per day for 10 years. With that kind of activity, it is also really strange if she would be without powerful magic items. It is also unlikely that someone would have stolen anything from her. :rolleyes: And a kobold with that background would be a complete legend, and considered a demigod among ordinary kobolds. The Chuck Norris of kobolds, if not Christopher Walken.
Thorsbjorn 01-22-08, 06:20 PM	Sorry if this is OT...but a level 28 kobold rogue?! Consider the lifespan of a kobold as well as the deeds necessary to make level 28. 378,000 experience points - an average of over 100 experience points per day for 10 years. With that kind of activity, it is also really strange if she would be without powerful magic items. It is also unlikely that someone would have stolen anything from her. :rolleyes: And a kobold with that background would be a complete legend, and considered a demigod among ordinary kobolds. The Chuck Norris of kobolds, if not Christopher Walken. Why would Christopher Walken be more legendary than Chuck Norris? :confused:
mustafar 01-23-08, 01:52 AM	Why would Christopher Walken be more legendary than Chuck Norris? :confused: Because he is the secret end boss of D&D.
Thorsbjorn 01-23-08, 02:10 AM	Because he is the secret end boss of D&D. I don't get it. Is that a reference to the role he played in one of the Batman movies? :confused:
runestar 01-23-08, 06:12 AM	Sorry if this is OT...but a level 28 kobold rogue?! Consider the lifespan of a kobold as well as the deeds necessary to make level 28. 378,000 experience points - an average of over 100 experience points per day for 10 years. With that kind of activity, it is also really strange if she would be without powerful magic items. It is also unlikely that someone would have stolen anything from her. :rolleyes: And a kobold with that background would be a complete legend, and considered a demigod among ordinary kobolds. The Chuck Norris of kobolds, if not Christopher Walken. You make it sound like they cannot use life-extending magic or anything. ;)
mustafar 01-23-08, 06:14 AM	I don't get it. Is that a reference to the role he played in one of the Batman movies? :confused: No its just silly internet humor! :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ow34SL9ht4 One internet hoax claims he is running for US president. That's like level 28. http://www.walken2008.com/index.html
ToastedAmphibian 01-23-08, 07:27 PM	No its just silly internet humor! :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ow34SL9ht4 One internet hoax claims he is running for US president. That's like level 28. http://www.walken2008.com/index.html Wait, does that mean Bob Dole is EPIC?
Thorsbjorn 01-23-08, 08:05 PM	Wait, does that mean Bob Dole is EPIC? Sure, but for doing commercials on ED, not for running for president. :D
mustafar 01-24-08, 01:19 AM	Wait, does that mean Bob Dole is EPIC? Well, he did get experience points in WW2, and then LOTS of role play bonuses in politics. :D
CrimsonDeath 01-24-08, 02:32 AM	Having no equipment may lower a CR but it depends on the class. Some classes are only hindered without equipment (spellcasters mostly) while others are devestated. However even with minor equipment (masterwork items instead of magic items) will quickly restore much of what a devestated class loses. At most I'd lower a CR -2 for a character due to equipment issues but I'd most likely just rebuild the character at that level with full equipment instead; if you must have that level and don't want to build down to a full equipment character then you probably shouldn't be lowering the CR anyway. Why don't you want to give him equipment? A level 15 Kobold is supposed to have 59,000 gp worth of equipment (DMG p. 127), plus a treasure hoard of "standard" value for its CR (some of which may also be equipment it carries and uses). An NPC with 28 character levels generally has 470,000gp worth of gear (Epic Level Handbook p. 317) in addition to its treasure hoard. But let's look at what a level 28 Kobold Rogue can do. Suppose you max out his Hide modifier. With average Dexterity, that's +36 to hide, which makes him practically invisible. If he decides to snipe the players, he can take one shot and then make a Hide check at a -20 penalty (total of +16 modifier) as a Move action. A level 13 PC with average Wisdom and max ranks in Spot only has even odds of noticing him. If he is noticed, you've maxed out Bluff (for feinting), so if he really wants to, he can use Bluff to create a distraction (at least a +31 bonus, which the players can only hope to beat if they actually bothered to max out Sense Motive) and then Hide again (this time at the full +36). His attack roll for these sniping shots (assuming a masterwork shortbow and average Strength) is +20 against the PCs' flat-footed AC. That's probably about right for a CR 13, but the 1d4+14d6-2 damage isn't (average of 49.5 damage per hit-- hello saves vs. massive damage). His AC would be low, but that's irrelevant if the PCs can't find him. Give him above-average ability scores, and everything swings a bit more in his favor. And in case it matters, he does qualify for Epic feats, beginning at level 21.
Thorsbjorn 01-24-08, 02:38 AM	Well, he did get experience points in WW2, and then LOTS of role play bonuses in politics. :D Yes, he had lots of roleplaying experience in Congress. For 35 years he voted for liberal bills and then pretended to be a conservative! :P Anyway, I think we might be getting a tad off topic... :D
StevenO 01-24-08, 02:25 PM	Why don't you want to give him equipment? A level 15 Kobold is supposed to have 59,000 gp worth of equipment (DMG p. 127), plus a treasure hoard of "standard" value for its CR (some of which may also be equipment it carries and uses). . See the Original Post and some of the follow ups. Personally, I'd never deliberately send an under equiped NPC at my party just to avoid the hassle of recalculating what the CR should be when they don't have the proper equipment. In the case of a Good NPC one could just give them Vow of Poverty and that should make the lack of equipment a non-issue when figuring CR.