CR and LA... different for what reasons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

CR and LA... different for what reasons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mecra
01-29-06, 06:41 PM If I have a creature that has a CR of 5 and a LA of +4, what is the reason that those two values are different? (Most creatures seem to have CR = LA)

I have a player that wants to play an Urskin (sp) from the Frost book. The creature has a CR of 5 and a LA of +4. Which do I use for determining how to allow him to make a character from it? Since ECL is gone, I'm not sure what to do now.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!
Th_Ar_Al
01-29-06, 06:56 PM For what I know, The CR in that case would be the same:

+4LA +1CLass lvl = 5.

There also the fact that some powers are more or less usefull in battle.
Mecra
01-29-06, 07:09 PM Ok, so then why are some creatures CR3 and LA+3 and this one CR5 and LA+4?

The urskin really doesn't have any disadvantages aside from Vuln to Fire but its stats and combat abilities are insane.

I just don't see why this one race's LA is lower when there are so many other race classes that are equal LA.
Alac Luin
01-29-06, 07:09 PM ECL is not gone.

CR and LA are 2 completely different scales
CR- for DM use, how challenging to the players fighting this creature is.
LA- for PCs to determen how much more powerful this creature is compared to other PCs.

I don't have Frostburn, but Ill use the Lizardfolk from the MM as an example.
Hit die- 2d8+2 (11 hp)
CR - 1
LA- +1

In effect, this thing is a ECL 3 creature straight from the MM. (2 for racial hit die + 1 for the LA).

We can also look at, the succubus
Hit die- 6d8+6 (33 hp)
CR- 7
LA- +6

This is a ECL 12 creature straight from the MM. (6 racial hit die +6 for LA)

If we add 6 levels of sorcerer to a succubus it is a ECL 18 creature (6 racial hit die, +6 for LA, and +6 for class levels)
This same Sorcerer succubus is only a CR 10 encounter. (7 for the base CR in the MM + 3 for one half of non associated class levels)
Mecra
01-29-06, 07:29 PM Ok, so the creature from Frost would be as follows:

5D10 HD
CR 5
LA +4

So to start off at level 1 class, it would be an effective ECL of 10? (One level of warrior, +4 from LA, and 5 from HD.)
Alac Luin
01-29-06, 07:42 PM That sounds about right.

If used as a PC, the charicter would have the first racial hit die maxed, and the first racial hit die is also the first level for skills.

Note: adding 1 level of warror (an NPC class) will not change the CR, but adding 1 level of fighter might add 1 to CR.
If this is a PC, it shouldn't mater though. :)
Alac Luin
01-29-06, 07:56 PM You most likely realize this, but I'll mention this anyway.

The creature you suggested as ECL 10 is a basicly a 10th level charicter, has the weath of a 10th level char, and gains experiance as a 10th level charicter and would need the experiance to reach 11th level to get to be a 2nd level fighter (or warrior).
dok
01-29-06, 08:58 PM Challenge Rating (CR) measures how much of a challenge a monster poses to a group of 4 PCs of any given level. It's a measure of how much damage it can do, and what kind of party resources it will take to stop it for a single encounter.

Effective Character Level (ECL) is completely different measurement that measures the relative power of a non-standard player character, as compared to other player-characters, over the course of a campaign.

ECL has two components: racial Hit Dice and Level Adjustment (LA). Racial HD are the HD the creature starts with, while Level Adjustment is a value used to compenstate for the creature's natural abilities. A character's class levels, plus Racial Hit Dice, plus Level Adjustment equals their ECL.

Let's use a simple example to start:

An Azer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/azer.htm) is a Challenge Rating 2 monster. It has 2 racial Hit Dice and a level adjustment of +4.

A PC Azer with 3 levels of Fighter would have an effective character level of 3 (class levels) + 2 (racial Hit Dice) +4 (level adjustment) = ECL 9.

An Azer with 3 levels of Fighter encountered as a monster would have a Challenge Rating of 2 (base creature challenge rating) + 3 (associated class levels) = CR 5.

Why the difference? What's going on?
Well, Challenge Rating tells us how hard of a fight this creature would be. Our Azer fighter would be an easy fight for a group of four 5th level PCs. But Challenge Rating only considers the monster for one fight.

ECL (and it's component of LA) measures how a player-character operates over the course of a campaign. The Azer has Immunity to Fire damage. In a combat, PCs may use a few fire spells, but it won't come into play all that often. Over the course of a campaign, player-characters will be subjected to a lot of fire-based damage. So a player-character who is immune to fire is more powerful than one who isn't, right?

That's where Level-adjustment comes in. If we look at an Ogre (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogre.htm), we see that Ogres get a +10 to Strength. (along with some other features) A 1st Ogre level fighter player character would be a lot more powerful than a 1st level Human fighter! So how to make it fair? Well, the Ogre has an ECL of +6; that means that a 1st level Player-character Ogre fighter is probably about as powerful as a 7th level human fighter, over the course of a campaign.

Think about Damage Reduction. A monster with DR 5/magic doesn't gain a lot of benefit from that in a single fight against PCs with magic weapon spells and magical weapons, so it's not a huge adjustment to Challenge Rating. But a Player-character with DR 5/magic would, over the course of a campaign, see a lot of fights against monsters that didn't use weapons, and couldn't overcome his Damage Reduction, so Damage Reduction is more useful to a Player character over the course of a campaign. That's why a template that grants Damage Reduction might not have a big CR adjustment, but would have a big Level-Adjustment.

The Urskin has 5 racial Hit Dice, and a Level Adjustment of +4, for a total ECL adjustment of +9. A 1st level Urskin character is ECL 10, the equivalent of a 10th level human PC. The +4 level-adjustment is to reflect the various racial abilties that the creature has that are very powerful and useful to a PC: being Large-sized, having a faster movement rate, having natural attacks, being immune to cold damage, having scent, and so on...
TheDragonmaster
01-30-06, 10:27 AM So simply, the diffrence in ECL and CR is basically because of two things - the diffrence between the DM and a Player, and the Diffrence between a Good Player and a Munchkin Player. :P

I've always wondered why this was so... :lightbulb

Thank you dok for enlightening me on the subject. :bow:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mecra 01-29-06, 06:41 PM	If I have a creature that has a CR of 5 and a LA of +4, what is the reason that those two values are different? (Most creatures seem to have CR = LA) I have a player that wants to play an Urskin (sp) from the Frost book. The creature has a CR of 5 and a LA of +4. Which do I use for determining how to allow him to make a character from it? Since ECL is gone, I'm not sure what to do now. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!
Th_Ar_Al 01-29-06, 06:56 PM	For what I know, The CR in that case would be the same: +4LA +1CLass lvl = 5. There also the fact that some powers are more or less usefull in battle.
Mecra 01-29-06, 07:09 PM	Ok, so then why are some creatures CR3 and LA+3 and this one CR5 and LA+4? The urskin really doesn't have any disadvantages aside from Vuln to Fire but its stats and combat abilities are insane. I just don't see why this one race's LA is lower when there are so many other race classes that are equal LA.
Alac Luin 01-29-06, 07:09 PM	ECL is not gone. CR and LA are 2 completely different scales CR- for DM use, how challenging to the players fighting this creature is. LA- for PCs to determen how much more powerful this creature is compared to other PCs. I don't have Frostburn, but Ill use the Lizardfolk from the MM as an example. Hit die- 2d8+2 (11 hp) CR - 1 LA- +1 In effect, this thing is a ECL 3 creature straight from the MM. (2 for racial hit die + 1 for the LA). We can also look at, the succubus Hit die- 6d8+6 (33 hp) CR- 7 LA- +6 This is a ECL 12 creature straight from the MM. (6 racial hit die +6 for LA) If we add 6 levels of sorcerer to a succubus it is a ECL 18 creature (6 racial hit die, +6 for LA, and +6 for class levels) This same Sorcerer succubus is only a CR 10 encounter. (7 for the base CR in the MM + 3 for one half of non associated class levels)
Mecra 01-29-06, 07:29 PM	Ok, so the creature from Frost would be as follows: 5D10 HD CR 5 LA +4 So to start off at level 1 class, it would be an effective ECL of 10? (One level of warrior, +4 from LA, and 5 from HD.)
Alac Luin 01-29-06, 07:42 PM	That sounds about right. If used as a PC, the charicter would have the first racial hit die maxed, and the first racial hit die is also the first level for skills. Note: adding 1 level of warror (an NPC class) will not change the CR, but adding 1 level of fighter might add 1 to CR. If this is a PC, it shouldn't mater though. :)
Alac Luin 01-29-06, 07:56 PM	You most likely realize this, but I'll mention this anyway. The creature you suggested as ECL 10 is a basicly a 10th level charicter, has the weath of a 10th level char, and gains experiance as a 10th level charicter and would need the experiance to reach 11th level to get to be a 2nd level fighter (or warrior).
dok 01-29-06, 08:58 PM	Challenge Rating (CR) measures how much of a challenge a monster poses to a group of 4 PCs of any given level. It's a measure of how much damage it can do, and what kind of party resources it will take to stop it for a single encounter. Effective Character Level (ECL) is completely different measurement that measures the relative power of a non-standard player character, as compared to other player-characters, over the course of a campaign. ECL has two components: racial Hit Dice and Level Adjustment (LA). Racial HD are the HD the creature starts with, while Level Adjustment is a value used to compenstate for the creature's natural abilities. A character's class levels, plus Racial Hit Dice, plus Level Adjustment equals their ECL. Let's use a simple example to start: An Azer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/azer.htm) is a Challenge Rating 2 monster. It has 2 racial Hit Dice and a level adjustment of +4. A PC Azer with 3 levels of Fighter would have an effective character level of 3 (class levels) + 2 (racial Hit Dice) +4 (level adjustment) = ECL 9. An Azer with 3 levels of Fighter encountered as a monster would have a Challenge Rating of 2 (base creature challenge rating) + 3 (associated class levels) = CR 5. Why the difference? What's going on? Well, Challenge Rating tells us how hard of a fight this creature would be. Our Azer fighter would be an easy fight for a group of four 5th level PCs. But Challenge Rating only considers the monster for one fight. ECL (and it's component of LA) measures how a player-character operates over the course of a campaign. The Azer has Immunity to Fire damage. In a combat, PCs may use a few fire spells, but it won't come into play all that often. Over the course of a campaign, player-characters will be subjected to a lot of fire-based damage. So a player-character who is immune to fire is more powerful than one who isn't, right? That's where Level-adjustment comes in. If we look at an Ogre (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogre.htm), we see that Ogres get a +10 to Strength. (along with some other features) A 1st Ogre level fighter player character would be a lot more powerful than a 1st level Human fighter! So how to make it fair? Well, the Ogre has an ECL of +6; that means that a 1st level Player-character Ogre fighter is probably about as powerful as a 7th level human fighter, over the course of a campaign. Think about Damage Reduction. A monster with DR 5/magic doesn't gain a lot of benefit from that in a single fight against PCs with magic weapon spells and magical weapons, so it's not a huge adjustment to Challenge Rating. But a Player-character with DR 5/magic would, over the course of a campaign, see a lot of fights against monsters that didn't use weapons, and couldn't overcome his Damage Reduction, so Damage Reduction is more useful to a Player character over the course of a campaign. That's why a template that grants Damage Reduction might not have a big CR adjustment, but would have a big Level-Adjustment. The Urskin has 5 racial Hit Dice, and a Level Adjustment of +4, for a total ECL adjustment of +9. A 1st level Urskin character is ECL 10, the equivalent of a 10th level human PC. The +4 level-adjustment is to reflect the various racial abilties that the creature has that are very powerful and useful to a PC: being Large-sized, having a faster movement rate, having natural attacks, being immune to cold damage, having scent, and so on...
TheDragonmaster 01-30-06, 10:27 AM	So simply, the diffrence in ECL and CR is basically because of two things - the diffrence between the DM and a Player, and the Diffrence between a Good Player and a Munchkin Player. :P I've always wondered why this was so... :lightbulb Thank you dok for enlightening me on the subject. :bow: