CR and multiclassed monsters. [Archive] - Wizards Community

CR and multiclassed monsters. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gandal 'The Grim Fisted'
02-01-04, 08:18 PM Hi folks.

I don't seem to be able to find info on how to judge a CR rating on a multiclassed 'leveled up' Monster.

For instance.

A Centaur, level two fighter, level 1 Weapon Master (Sword and Fist PC).
A centaur levels up as per class level, but how do I figure his CR?

Any help, particularly an accurate page reference would be greatly appreciated.
RobTzu
02-01-04, 09:28 PM Take its racial Hd, add its level adjustment (last entry in "as character" section), add its character levels. That will be its Cr. Your example is:
4 (racial Hd) + 2 (level adjustment) + 3 (character levels) equals 9. Cr of 9

Dmg(3.5) page 172 under starting level of monster.
Dmg page 37 under Challenge rating for Npc's.
these two steps will get you there. Its akward I know, I use a variant home rule.
strenoth
02-01-04, 11:14 PM NO! That would be ECL.

For CR, start with it's normal CR, and add the number of class levels it has.

every level of a class is equal to a CR of +1, so a 10th level human is a CR 10 encounter.

For your example: A Centaur is a CR of 3, so +3 class levels is equal to a CR 6 encounter, even though it has an ECL of 9.
RobTzu
02-02-04, 06:35 PM Ah that is where the issue is murky my friend. A 15th level wizard is a 15 Cr opponent, and has an ECl of 15.

A mindflayer is a Cr 8 creature. Give him 7 levels of wizard and he is CR of 15? His Ecl would be 22. Quite a disparity. Both the Human and mindflayer are CR 15, but the mindflayer is a 22 ECl? Fair? I think not. Remember on page 37 of the DMG(3.5) A NPC's Cr is equal to his Ecl. However the system is broke. Very broke.
Mindflayer = Cr 8.
Mindflayer + one level of fighter = ECL 16.:uh-huh:

However Mindflayer with one level of fighter is a CR of 9? The two rules of CR and Ecl are in direct conflict and are in need of revision apparently. Unless the above can be shown to be fallacious, I would house rule.
The Abominable Darkling
02-02-04, 08:15 PM Gandal, just ignore RobTzu. He is very confused about the difference between ECL and CR. Strenoth's reponse is correct; your centaur would have a CR of 6. Information on advanced monsters' CRs is found on pages 293 and 294 of the Monster Manual.
RobTzu
02-02-04, 11:42 PM I am not confused. I understand the concept of adding an assiocated pc level adds one to the Cr of the monster. However ECl is supposed to be related to Cr. Thats why a 10th level human fighter is a Cr of 10. The two just don't mesh well. The two rules contradict each other.
the_heart
02-03-04, 05:14 AM Originally posted by RobTzu
I am not confused. I understand the concept of adding an assiocated pc level adds one to the Cr of the monster. However ECl is supposed to be related to Cr. Thats why a 10th level human fighter is a Cr of 10. The two just don't mesh well. The two rules contradict each other. have to disagree with you here, and endorse Strenoth's answer. ECL and CR are NOT the same thing. any apparent contradictions are because they actually measure different things.

CR measures a creatures impact in a single encounter, so things like high stats, 'at will' abilities and the like have little time to make a big impact.

ECL measures a creatures impact as a player, therefore those abilities will occur in every encounter, and all the bits inbetween. 'at will' abilities that were minor can become very influential. high stats become much more noticable in their influence.

PC classes grant quite substantial benefits such that the game assumes one level = 1 CR (not always accurate, and is why 3.5 introduced the 'non-associated class levels' concept for CR only)

it's an oft mentioned piece of advice, but adjudicating CR's is often more art than science. that is never more true than when adding class levels.
The Abominable Darkling
02-04-04, 05:49 PM Originally posted by RobTzu
I am not confused.You are indeed confused, and this is the source of your confusion: "...ECl is supposed to be related to Cr." This is completely false. ECL is not related to CR in any way.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gandal 'The Grim Fisted' 02-01-04, 08:18 PM	Hi folks. I don't seem to be able to find info on how to judge a CR rating on a multiclassed 'leveled up' Monster. For instance. A Centaur, level two fighter, level 1 Weapon Master (Sword and Fist PC). A centaur levels up as per class level, but how do I figure his CR? Any help, particularly an accurate page reference would be greatly appreciated.
RobTzu 02-01-04, 09:28 PM	Take its racial Hd, add its level adjustment (last entry in "as character" section), add its character levels. That will be its Cr. Your example is: 4 (racial Hd) + 2 (level adjustment) + 3 (character levels) equals 9. Cr of 9 Dmg(3.5) page 172 under starting level of monster. Dmg page 37 under Challenge rating for Npc's. these two steps will get you there. Its akward I know, I use a variant home rule.
strenoth 02-01-04, 11:14 PM	NO! That would be ECL. For CR, start with it's normal CR, and add the number of class levels it has. every level of a class is equal to a CR of +1, so a 10th level human is a CR 10 encounter. For your example: A Centaur is a CR of 3, so +3 class levels is equal to a CR 6 encounter, even though it has an ECL of 9.
RobTzu 02-02-04, 06:35 PM	Ah that is where the issue is murky my friend. A 15th level wizard is a 15 Cr opponent, and has an ECl of 15. A mindflayer is a Cr 8 creature. Give him 7 levels of wizard and he is CR of 15? His Ecl would be 22. Quite a disparity. Both the Human and mindflayer are CR 15, but the mindflayer is a 22 ECl? Fair? I think not. Remember on page 37 of the DMG(3.5) A NPC's Cr is equal to his Ecl. However the system is broke. Very broke. Mindflayer = Cr 8. Mindflayer + one level of fighter = ECL 16.:uh-huh: However Mindflayer with one level of fighter is a CR of 9? The two rules of CR and Ecl are in direct conflict and are in need of revision apparently. Unless the above can be shown to be fallacious, I would house rule.
The Abominable Darkling 02-02-04, 08:15 PM	Gandal, just ignore RobTzu. He is very confused about the difference between ECL and CR. Strenoth's reponse is correct; your centaur would have a CR of 6. Information on advanced monsters' CRs is found on pages 293 and 294 of the Monster Manual.
RobTzu 02-02-04, 11:42 PM	I am not confused. I understand the concept of adding an assiocated pc level adds one to the Cr of the monster. However ECl is supposed to be related to Cr. Thats why a 10th level human fighter is a Cr of 10. The two just don't mesh well. The two rules contradict each other.
the_heart 02-03-04, 05:14 AM	Originally posted by RobTzu I am not confused. I understand the concept of adding an assiocated pc level adds one to the Cr of the monster. However ECl is supposed to be related to Cr. Thats why a 10th level human fighter is a Cr of 10. The two just don't mesh well. The two rules contradict each other. have to disagree with you here, and endorse Strenoth's answer. ECL and CR are NOT the same thing. any apparent contradictions are because they actually measure different things. CR measures a creatures impact in a single encounter, so things like high stats, 'at will' abilities and the like have little time to make a big impact. ECL measures a creatures impact as a player, therefore those abilities will occur in every encounter, and all the bits inbetween. 'at will' abilities that were minor can become very influential. high stats become much more noticable in their influence. PC classes grant quite substantial benefits such that the game assumes one level = 1 CR (not always accurate, and is why 3.5 introduced the 'non-associated class levels' concept for CR only) it's an oft mentioned piece of advice, but adjudicating CR's is often more art than science. that is never more true than when adding class levels.
The Abominable Darkling 02-04-04, 05:49 PM	Originally posted by RobTzu I am not confused.You are indeed confused, and this is the source of your confusion: "...ECl is supposed to be related to Cr." This is completely false. ECL is not related to CR in any way.