Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Styer 05-05-05, 08:11 PM	I'm trying to make some D&D stats for a little dragon-man mini. Rather than start from scratch, I just took the stats for an Ogre, changed the type to Dragon, gave it two claws and a bite, chose new skills to go with the new type, and chose different feats. I also used the nonelite array of attributes in place of the standard array, but SRD says that generally doesn't make for a power-up. I figure the changes to the skills and feats were also more-or-less a wash since I didn't add any bonus feats or racial skill bonuses. What I'm wondering now is whether those changes are enough to bump the CR, and if so, how much. If I'm right about what isn't a power increase, the only changes significant for CR purposes should be the change in type and the addition of natural attacks. Here is the stat block, which I think is correct for the changes I made: Large Dragon Hit Dice: 4d12+12 (38 hp) Initiative: –1 Speed: 40 ft. Armor Class: 16 (–1 size, –1 Dex, +8 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 16 Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+14 Attack: Claw +12 melee (1d8+6) Full Attack: 2 Claws +12 melee (1d8+6) and bite +9 melee (2d6+3) Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects. Saves: Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +5 Abilities: Str 22, Dex 8, Con 17, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 5 Skills: Spot +8, Listen +8, Climb +13 Feats: Multi-Attack, Weapon Focus (Claw) Environment: Any Organization: Solitary, pair, gang (3–4), or band (5–8) Challenge Rating: Treasure: None Alignment: Always chaotic neutral Advancement: 5-8 HD (Large) I didn't bother trying to work out a Level Adjustment because I'm not intending this as a PC race. I suppose it would be a little higher than the LA on an Ogre for the same reasons the CR might increase. If anyone has thoughts on LA, though, feel free to share them. So, any thoughts?
Wyrd Bearer 05-05-05, 08:15 PM	Could you have saved yourself the trouble and just applied the half-dragon template to the standard ogre? That'll tell you the appropriate CR increase.
Styer 05-05-05, 08:47 PM	Could you have saved yourself the trouble and just applied the half-dragon template to the standard ogre? That'll tell you the appropriate CR increase.I suppose I could have, though I'm not sure that would have been much less trouble. Plus I don't want flight or a breath weapon -- just a physical power-house. I'm not sure that, without those features, the CR adjustment on the Half-Dragon template would still be correct.
Borris 05-05-05, 11:20 PM	Then you should have used the Draconis template from the Draconomicon. No breath weapon, no flight; just a slightly stronger version of the base creature with only a +1 to CR. It does keep the original creature's type, though.
Vanamir 05-06-05, 05:03 AM	Could you have saved yourself the trouble and just applied the half-dragon template to the standard ogre? That'll tell you the appropriate CR increase. No, it wouldn't since the half-dragon template also comes with substantial ability increases, flight movement, a breath weapon, and +4 natural armour. Given that the half-dragon template is only CR+2 the changes suggested would be not even +1.
Styer 05-06-05, 09:08 AM	Then you should have used the Draconis template from the Draconomicon. No breath weapon, no flight; just a slightly stronger version of the base creature with only a +1 to CR. It does keep the original creature's type, though.Cool. I wasn't familiar with that template. I have the Draconomicon, though. I'll take a look at it tonight.
Styer 05-06-05, 09:12 AM	No, it wouldn't since the half-dragon template also comes with substantial ability increases, flight movement, a breath weapon, and +4 natural armour. Given that the half-dragon template is only CR+2 the changes suggested would be not even +1.Looking back I did boost the Ogre's Natural Armor from +5 to +8 and dropped the armor. By the time I posted the statblock I forgot that I had done that. Does that change your take that the changes presented aren't worth CR +1?
kenichi 05-06-05, 10:00 AM	Going by the Improving Moster section is states that for every 4 HD of giant a creature gains +1 CR and for every 2 HD of Dragon a creature gains +1 CR. So you could extrapolate that switching 4 HD of giant to 4 HD of dragon is like taking the creatures base CR-1 (giant)+2 (dragon). So I would guess a +1 CR could be appropriate. I would probably compare the new CR to other creatures and see if it actually compares. Taking a look at some CR 4 creatures it looks like it is a bit weaker than most (usually in the HP area, the attacks seem about the same.) Maybe bump his Con a bit and call it CR 4.