CR for pc monster characters [Archive] - Wizards Community

CR for pc monster characters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
shadow assasin
07-03-03, 11:24 AM Hi,
I only possess the mm1 and the other 2 core books and have a few Q's
1: It says in the DMG (Im quite sure)that a pc monsters starting CR is roughly its Original CR + Character levels So A manticore (CR 5) with 10 levels of ftr (LOL) is CR 15 yet a minotour with a CR of 4 has a CR 8 by the same page of DMG rules. So has this got something to do with ECL or what?. Could you allow a minotour to start with Starting Class HD and count it as CR 5 (4 for minotour and one for say cleric and give it HP per a level one cleric?.
2: Say a character is a lich (I think a lich is CR+2) does this template along with all others mean that a lich in a 20th level party is a 18th level wiz making hir "fair" in that group of PC's?.

Cheers
Drone23
07-03-03, 04:12 PM 1. A minotaur with 10 levels in fighter is equivalent to an 18th-level human fighter. As a PC in your group. Even though, as an encounter, he's only CR 14. You must remember that if a monster is used as a PC, then the player can use ALL of the monster's abilities in every combat, instead of just for one combat as an encounter. Minotaurs have several abilities that come naturally to them, like natural armor and attacks, great strength, a charge attack, and their natural cunning (immune to maze spells, can't get lost, and are never caught flat-footed). This greatly increases their worth as PCs. If you could play an 18th-level human fighter or a 10th-level minotaur fighter with a +8 Str bonus when you roll him up, natural attacks, a charge, and the natural cunning, I think you would have a pretty hard choice. The 10th-level minotaur fighter would have an ECL of +8.
The minotaur gets his normal HD (6d8+12) PLUS any HD for his class. In your example, it would be 6d8+12 plus 1d8+2.

2. The lich has a CR of +2. But that is as AN ENCOUNTER, not as a PC. The lich also has many abilities like damage reduction, a paralyzing touch, and others that would be extremely useful to a PC. According to Savage Species, a PC lich has an ECL of +4. So and 18th-level lich is the equivalent to a 22nd-level character of the same class. A 16th-level lich would fit in a 20th-level party though.

CR is a measure of how challenging a creature is compared to 4 equivalent PCs. This takes into account that the creature will only be able to use its abilities a certain number of times before the PCs defeat it. If the creature is a PC, those abilities can be used more often. A beholder PC can fly, has an antimagic ray, and several devastating eye rays. Imagine this PC in a group of other 13th-level PCs. Wouldn't everyone then want to play a beholder?
shadow assasin
07-04-03, 06:21 AM Cheers i always thought that was harsh but the way way you put that it makes sense why a lich is ECL +4

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
shadow assasin 07-03-03, 11:24 AM	Hi, I only possess the mm1 and the other 2 core books and have a few Q's 1: It says in the DMG (Im quite sure)that a pc monsters starting CR is roughly its Original CR + Character levels So A manticore (CR 5) with 10 levels of ftr (LOL) is CR 15 yet a minotour with a CR of 4 has a CR 8 by the same page of DMG rules. So has this got something to do with ECL or what?. Could you allow a minotour to start with Starting Class HD and count it as CR 5 (4 for minotour and one for say cleric and give it HP per a level one cleric?. 2: Say a character is a lich (I think a lich is CR+2) does this template along with all others mean that a lich in a 20th level party is a 18th level wiz making hir "fair" in that group of PC's?. Cheers
Drone23 07-03-03, 04:12 PM	1. A minotaur with 10 levels in fighter is equivalent to an 18th-level human fighter. As a PC in your group. Even though, as an encounter, he's only CR 14. You must remember that if a monster is used as a PC, then the player can use ALL of the monster's abilities in every combat, instead of just for one combat as an encounter. Minotaurs have several abilities that come naturally to them, like natural armor and attacks, great strength, a charge attack, and their natural cunning (immune to maze spells, can't get lost, and are never caught flat-footed). This greatly increases their worth as PCs. If you could play an 18th-level human fighter or a 10th-level minotaur fighter with a +8 Str bonus when you roll him up, natural attacks, a charge, and the natural cunning, I think you would have a pretty hard choice. The 10th-level minotaur fighter would have an ECL of +8. The minotaur gets his normal HD (6d8+12) PLUS any HD for his class. In your example, it would be 6d8+12 plus 1d8+2. 2. The lich has a CR of +2. But that is as AN ENCOUNTER, not as a PC. The lich also has many abilities like damage reduction, a paralyzing touch, and others that would be extremely useful to a PC. According to Savage Species, a PC lich has an ECL of +4. So and 18th-level lich is the equivalent to a 22nd-level character of the same class. A 16th-level lich would fit in a 20th-level party though. CR is a measure of how challenging a creature is compared to 4 equivalent PCs. This takes into account that the creature will only be able to use its abilities a certain number of times before the PCs defeat it. If the creature is a PC, those abilities can be used more often. A beholder PC can fly, has an antimagic ray, and several devastating eye rays. Imagine this PC in a group of other 13th-level PCs. Wouldn't everyone then want to play a beholder?
shadow assasin 07-04-03, 06:21 AM	Cheers i always thought that was harsh but the way way you put that it makes sense why a lich is ECL +4