CR for player class/race enemies [Archive] - Wizards Community

CR for player class/race enemies [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Callon
04-30-05, 01:18 PM I'm rather puzzled by the CR of your typical player class/race. Let's use a level 5 human fighter as an example. Especially in an urban adventure, it can obviously be a common sort of enemy the players may come across. My understanding is that encountering a single level 5 human fighter would have a CR of 5. But then I compare that to the power of monsters with a CR 5 and am confused. Take this monster from the Book of Vile Darkness:

Adult Kython
Hit Points - 10d8 + 30 (75 hp)
Initiative +6
AC - 24 (2 dex, +12 natural)
Attacks - Bite +10 melee and 4 claws +9 melee (yep, 5 attacks per round at CR5)
Dmg - Bite 3d6+3, claw 1d8+1
Saves - Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +9
Resistances - Immune to acid and cold, fire and electrical resistance 20
Poison - Bite, Fort DC 18, initial and secondary damage 1d6 strength
30% chance of having a Kython weapon (various weapons, makes it a little more powerful)
They throw in the Dodge feat for good measure, so AC will be 25 against one PC.

I think this monster would absolutely obliterate your typical level 5 human fighter every single time. A lucky wizard might beat it, but should it make a save, the wizard will die fast. To me there's no comparison at all in challenge, yet they're both rated 5. Admittedly this is one of the more powerful CR5 monsters I've come across, but almost all of them seem tougher than a PC class/race of level 5. What gives?

Given the inconsistency, should the PC class/race be rated a lower CR than it's level, or should monster CRs be increased?
Slagger the Chuul
05-01-05, 01:24 AM Making comparisons between monsters (or NPCs) isn't what CR is for.

The Challenge Rating (CR) measures the difficulty a party of 4 typical adventurers (traditionally a cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard) would have defeating the creature in question. If a party encounters a 5th-level fighter (CR 5), they should have about as much trouble defeating him as if they encountered an adult kython (CR 5). In practice, a lot depends on the details of the encounter (which is a good reason to have a DM :) ), but the CR is supposed to represent the average difficulty.

Depending on their specific abilities, there are some monsters that could handily destroy other monsters of a much higher challenge rating, but would be killed offhand by a party that would struggle with the higher CR monster.

Challenge ratings are designed for adventurers, and adventurers only.
Callon
05-01-05, 07:56 PM My point is a party could deal with a single 5th level fighter far easier than a single Kython. I compared the stats of the two because they're both fairly straightforward melee oriented monsters. There's just no comparison in how hard they'd be for a party to defeat. I'm baffled by the CRs being the same.

In general many of the monsters seem to be tougher fights than facing a single PC class/race of the same CR would be.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Callon 04-30-05, 01:18 PM	I'm rather puzzled by the CR of your typical player class/race. Let's use a level 5 human fighter as an example. Especially in an urban adventure, it can obviously be a common sort of enemy the players may come across. My understanding is that encountering a single level 5 human fighter would have a CR of 5. But then I compare that to the power of monsters with a CR 5 and am confused. Take this monster from the Book of Vile Darkness: Adult Kython Hit Points - 10d8 + 30 (75 hp) Initiative +6 AC - 24 (2 dex, +12 natural) Attacks - Bite +10 melee and 4 claws +9 melee (yep, 5 attacks per round at CR5) Dmg - Bite 3d6+3, claw 1d8+1 Saves - Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +9 Resistances - Immune to acid and cold, fire and electrical resistance 20 Poison - Bite, Fort DC 18, initial and secondary damage 1d6 strength 30% chance of having a Kython weapon (various weapons, makes it a little more powerful) They throw in the Dodge feat for good measure, so AC will be 25 against one PC. I think this monster would absolutely obliterate your typical level 5 human fighter every single time. A lucky wizard might beat it, but should it make a save, the wizard will die fast. To me there's no comparison at all in challenge, yet they're both rated 5. Admittedly this is one of the more powerful CR5 monsters I've come across, but almost all of them seem tougher than a PC class/race of level 5. What gives? Given the inconsistency, should the PC class/race be rated a lower CR than it's level, or should monster CRs be increased?
Slagger the Chuul 05-01-05, 01:24 AM	Making comparisons between monsters (or NPCs) isn't what CR is for. The Challenge Rating (CR) measures the difficulty a party of 4 typical adventurers (traditionally a cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard) would have defeating the creature in question. If a party encounters a 5th-level fighter (CR 5), they should have about as much trouble defeating him as if they encountered an adult kython (CR 5). In practice, a lot depends on the details of the encounter (which is a good reason to have a DM :) ), but the CR is supposed to represent the average difficulty. Depending on their specific abilities, there are some monsters that could handily destroy other monsters of a much higher challenge rating, but would be killed offhand by a party that would struggle with the higher CR monster. Challenge ratings are designed for adventurers, and adventurers only.
Callon 05-01-05, 07:56 PM	My point is a party could deal with a single 5th level fighter far easier than a single Kython. I compared the stats of the two because they're both fairly straightforward melee oriented monsters. There's just no comparison in how hard they'd be for a party to defeat. I'm baffled by the CRs being the same. In general many of the monsters seem to be tougher fights than facing a single PC class/race of the same CR would be.