CR issues [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

CR issues [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sammael_the_Chosen
10-18-04, 04:32 PM I'm having some difficulties with determining CR for monsters with class levels. Let's take a yuan-ti halfblood, for example. It is a 7HD monstrous humanoid with CR 5. Since sorcerer is a non-associated class for a yuan-ti, adding 6 levels of sorcerer should add 6/2=+3 to its CR. Fine. Next, I'd like to add 6 levels of coiled cabalist (a PrC from Serpent Kingddoms that grants full spellcasting progression). The best way to add CR now is to allow coiled cabalist levels to stack with sorcerer levels with regard to CR. After sorcerer 6/coiled cabalist 1, however, coiled cabalist levels become associated. Thus, CR increases by +5, to a total of 13.

What bugs me is that there is no way a yuan-ti halfblood with 12 sorcerer levels is a challenge equal to a human with 13 sorcerer levels. The yuan-ti has a lot more hp, and some serious ability adjustments, as well as SR, and a host of special abilities. True, not all abilities will come into play during a simple combat encounter, but a measley +1 CR?

Next, what puzzles me is what kind of treasure (equipment) should the yuan-ti have. Should it have the same treasure as a CR 13 sorcerer NPC? Or should it have treasure according to its ECL (which is 24, making the yuan-ti an epic character)? My gut feeling tells me that neither value is right, but I can't find anything in the rules to help me determine the treasure.
green_yawgmoth
10-18-04, 06:46 PM What'll really blow your mind is that in 3.0, a human cleric 20 and a solar (which has 20 virtual levels in cleric) have the same CR. I love you WotC, your CR and ECL systems make the utmost sense. :rolleyes:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
DungeonMaster
10-18-04, 07:53 PM What'll really blow your mind is that in 3.0, a human cleric 20 and a solar (which has 20 virtual levels in cleric) have the same CR.

That would be because the human cleric 20 has 220 000 GP worth of gear to be equipped with and a great deal of flexibility in his feats and item selection.
If you don't carefully craft the NPC then yes, you're not going to get a commensurate challenge.

Anyhow, the CR system is not perfect - adjust to what you as a DM feel is right.
Dackad
10-18-04, 08:08 PM That would be because the human cleric 20 has 220 000 GP worth of gear to be equipped with and a great deal of flexibility in his feats and item selection.

The solar should have equal access to such wealth as well.

Anyhow, the CR system is not perfect - adjust to what you as a DM feel is right.
Very true.
kliate
10-18-04, 08:13 PM And then there's the XPH's CR8 Mind Flayer that manifests powers at 9th level...some things never change, and some just get worse.

I don't see too much of a problem with the CR13 that casts as a 12th level sorceror. For the same EL, you could have an elder and greater storm elementals....but that's another issue.

The idea is that the creature in question should pose a challenge to a group of four characters with a level equal to it's CR - in general, that means the party is typically going to be an EL of X+4 versus an EL of X. The advantages that say, a human sorceror would have over a yuan-ti include:

They're human - that alone tends to win over a lot more trust than the Yuan-Ti (unless the Yuan-Ti make those disguise checks...crazy purebloods!)

More often then not, they'll have methods of "attacking" the characters without entering combat, whether it's planting evidence to cause trouble with the local magistrate or hiring the thieves' guild to confiscate their valuables.

Parties can't just go "bang, you're dead" to every NPC they meet (usually...) this tends to force the party to work on the Sorceror's terms

Human sorcerors don't tend to have any reservations about using the same dirty tricks that your party members would. Plain and simple, a DM with a Fighter 5/Sorceror 12/Cleric 9 monstrous NPC is going to be about as confused as any player in the same scenario - and some strategic opportunities will be missed.

Defeating "Civilized humanoids" from an adventuring party's perspective should never be as simple as a bit of combat followed by a coffee break - humanoids are supposed to be cunning foes calling on capacities well beyond their normal limits. Wouldn't you describe your adventuring party that way?

Generally speaking, where a Yuan-Ti Abomination is a straightforward "kill the monster" encounter, "Civilized humanoids" will almost always get the drop on the party when the situation turns to combat.
DungeonMaster
10-19-04, 12:38 AM The solar should have equal access to such wealth as well.

It has a very powerful sword and bow but it has only standard treasure per the rules. Wealth is a balancing factor.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sammael_the_Chosen 10-18-04, 04:32 PM	I'm having some difficulties with determining CR for monsters with class levels. Let's take a yuan-ti halfblood, for example. It is a 7HD monstrous humanoid with CR 5. Since sorcerer is a non-associated class for a yuan-ti, adding 6 levels of sorcerer should add 6/2=+3 to its CR. Fine. Next, I'd like to add 6 levels of coiled cabalist (a PrC from Serpent Kingddoms that grants full spellcasting progression). The best way to add CR now is to allow coiled cabalist levels to stack with sorcerer levels with regard to CR. After sorcerer 6/coiled cabalist 1, however, coiled cabalist levels become associated. Thus, CR increases by +5, to a total of 13. What bugs me is that there is no way a yuan-ti halfblood with 12 sorcerer levels is a challenge equal to a human with 13 sorcerer levels. The yuan-ti has a lot more hp, and some serious ability adjustments, as well as SR, and a host of special abilities. True, not all abilities will come into play during a simple combat encounter, but a measley +1 CR? Next, what puzzles me is what kind of treasure (equipment) should the yuan-ti have. Should it have the same treasure as a CR 13 sorcerer NPC? Or should it have treasure according to its ECL (which is 24, making the yuan-ti an epic character)? My gut feeling tells me that neither value is right, but I can't find anything in the rules to help me determine the treasure.
green_yawgmoth 10-18-04, 06:46 PM	What'll really blow your mind is that in 3.0, a human cleric 20 and a solar (which has 20 virtual levels in cleric) have the same CR. I love you WotC, your CR and ECL systems make the utmost sense. :rolleyes: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
DungeonMaster 10-18-04, 07:53 PM	What'll really blow your mind is that in 3.0, a human cleric 20 and a solar (which has 20 virtual levels in cleric) have the same CR. That would be because the human cleric 20 has 220 000 GP worth of gear to be equipped with and a great deal of flexibility in his feats and item selection. If you don't carefully craft the NPC then yes, you're not going to get a commensurate challenge. Anyhow, the CR system is not perfect - adjust to what you as a DM feel is right.
Dackad 10-18-04, 08:08 PM	That would be because the human cleric 20 has 220 000 GP worth of gear to be equipped with and a great deal of flexibility in his feats and item selection. The solar should have equal access to such wealth as well. Anyhow, the CR system is not perfect - adjust to what you as a DM feel is right. Very true.
kliate 10-18-04, 08:13 PM	And then there's the XPH's CR8 Mind Flayer that manifests powers at 9th level...some things never change, and some just get worse. I don't see too much of a problem with the CR13 that casts as a 12th level sorceror. For the same EL, you could have an elder and greater storm elementals....but that's another issue. The idea is that the creature in question should pose a challenge to a group of four characters with a level equal to it's CR - in general, that means the party is typically going to be an EL of X+4 versus an EL of X. The advantages that say, a human sorceror would have over a yuan-ti include: They're human - that alone tends to win over a lot more trust than the Yuan-Ti (unless the Yuan-Ti make those disguise checks...crazy purebloods!) More often then not, they'll have methods of "attacking" the characters without entering combat, whether it's planting evidence to cause trouble with the local magistrate or hiring the thieves' guild to confiscate their valuables. Parties can't just go "bang, you're dead" to every NPC they meet (usually...) this tends to force the party to work on the Sorceror's terms Human sorcerors don't tend to have any reservations about using the same dirty tricks that your party members would. Plain and simple, a DM with a Fighter 5/Sorceror 12/Cleric 9 monstrous NPC is going to be about as confused as any player in the same scenario - and some strategic opportunities will be missed. Defeating "Civilized humanoids" from an adventuring party's perspective should never be as simple as a bit of combat followed by a coffee break - humanoids are supposed to be cunning foes calling on capacities well beyond their normal limits. Wouldn't you describe your adventuring party that way? Generally speaking, where a Yuan-Ti Abomination is a straightforward "kill the monster" encounter, "Civilized humanoids" will almost always get the drop on the party when the situation turns to combat.
DungeonMaster 10-19-04, 12:38 AM	The solar should have equal access to such wealth as well. It has a very powerful sword and bow but it has only standard treasure per the rules. Wealth is a balancing factor.