Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vanigo 03-10-04, 05:19 PM	In another thread discussing building a virtually impenetrable fortress, I suggested having constructs on the walls that would create short-duration walls of force to block siege projectiles and spells, but do nothing else. I considered doing a write-up of these things. Then it occured to me, I have absolutely no idea what kind of CR something like this would have. I could give it a CR based on how dangerous it is alone, namely not at all, but that seems wrong. Under many circumstances, it could make a relatively easy encounter vastly more difficult. Should it be something like CR 0, and boost the CR of everything encountered with it? Should it instead give a percentage-based exp increase? Should it have a CR based on how powerful its abilities are, rather than how dangerous they are? Should it have a CR based on how dangerous it is alone, and say that the DM should give more experience if it's doing something tactically valuable? The same goes for any other creature designed for a supporting role, of course, like one that heals allies or gives them AC bonuses or something.
BrutalMisery 03-10-04, 07:31 PM	Vanigo In this case, I would rule said constructs as part of the enviorment or circumstance, and merely up the xp by a percentage amount. Sort of like a skeleton is a really weak critter, and easily dispatched. But if the heroes have to fight one when they are underwater (and they can't breathe water), its a bit different. Sometimes certain combinations of monsters present a greater threat together than apart, ths warrent a increase in xp, but not actaul CR adjustment. Take a blue dragon and a few flesh golems (I think I stole this from a published book). The flesh golems can close with the heroes, and the blue dragon will breath its lighting on the whole group (which actually heals the golems while hurting the party). On the other hand, you could put a 1st level wizard up there with a wall of force wand, and that'll do the same thing...
Vanigo 03-11-04, 12:38 AM	True, but a first level wizard with a wand of wall of force would probably resent being expected to cling to the side of the wall in the middle of a siege 24 hours a day. Bulwark Spider Small Construct Hit Dice: 3d10+10 (26 hp) Initiative: +1 Speed: 30 ft., climb 20 ft. Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, +1 dex, +3 natural) Base Attack/Grapple: +2/-4 Attack: Claw +1 melee (1d3-2) Full Attack: 2 Claws +1 melee (1d3-2) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Wall of force Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction 5/magic, identify spell target, immunity to magic, low-light vision, stone climbing, repair stone Saves: Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +2 Abilities: Str 6, Dex 12, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1 Skills: - Feats: - Environment: Any Organization: Squadron (10-15) Challenge Rating: 1/8 (?) Treasure: None Alignment: Always neutral Advancement: 3-6 HD (Small); 6-8 HD (Medium) Level Adjustment: - A bulwark spider is a rather spindly spider-like construct made of bronze and steel. It is designed to protect and maintain fortifications by intercepting spells and siege projectiles with its wall of force ability and by repairing any damage that is done. Nearly defenseless on their own, they nevertheless constitute a formidable obstacle to any who seek to destroy their host structure. They are most useful on stone structures, and seldom if ever found on structures made of other materials. They are usually found on the walls of fortresses and castles, although they have been known to maintain other stone structures, such as bridges and dams. Bulwark spiders are always constructed to defend a specific structure, and never willingly leave this structure. Once the spider is completed, it can never be moved to a new structure. It will tirelessly climb the outer walls of this building, repairing damage and preparing to deflect attacks. A bulwark spider is three feet across, and weighs around 100 pounds. Combat If forcibly taken from the walls of its home structure, a bulwark spider is nearly helpless, and will flee from any aggressive creature. Even a small dog or a child with a stick will set a bulwark spider to flight. It always attempts to return to the walls of its home, and always knows the direction and distance, if not the best route, to this building. When on the walls of its home, a bulwark spider will attempt to climb out of reach of attackers, but will not single-mindedly flee from them. Instead, it constantly prepares to deflect attacks on its home. Every round, a bulwark spider readies an action to create a wall of force if it detects a siege weapon being fired at its structure or a spell being cast at its structure unless another bulwark spider is closer to where the attack is aimed, creating the wall between the source of the attack and its target. It automatically identifies where the wall should be placed to intercept a projectile or break a spellcaster's line of effect. It ignores any physical projectile smaller than a ballista bolt, and any spell or projectile that comes from within the walls of its home. If it cannot use its wall of force ability, it will do nothing other than attempt to avoid attacks. Bulwark spiders are often designed to also protect any other creature on its home structure. In such a case, they are incapable of distinguishing between creatures (except for other bulwark spiders), and will protect friend and foe alike. Identify Spell Target (Ex): A bulwark spider can automatically detect the intended target of any spell it witnesses being cast. It does not gain any other information about that spell. Immunity to Magic (Ex): A bulwark spider is immunet ot any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below. Any effect other than natural environmental conditions that deals cold damage renders a bulwark spider immobile and helpless for one round per die of damage that would have been dealt (no save). Chill metal, when cast directly on a bulwark spider, will render it immobile for twice the spell's normal duration (no save). Heat metal, when cast directly on a bulwark spider, will grant it fast healing 2 for the spell's duration. A bulwark spider is affected normally by rust attacks, such as that of a rust monster or a rusting grasp spell. Stone Climbing (Ex): A bulwark spider is can cling to any stone surface as if it were under the effects of spider climb. This ability is always in effect. Repair Stone (Ex): A bulwark spider is capable of repairing its home structure if that structure is made of stone. It repairs 1d8+1 points of damage with every hour of work. Multiple bulwark spiders will work together to repair large damaged areas. Given enough time, bulwark spiders can even rebuild completely destroyed sections of wall. Wall of Force (Sp): Once every 1d4+1 rounds, a bulwark spider can create a wall of force anywhere within 150 feet. The wall of force persists for only two rounds. Otherwise, this is treated exactly like a wall of force as cast by a 10th level sorcerer. Construction A bulwark spider's body is constructed from 75 pounds of bronze and 25 pounds of steel, laced with a few ounces of adamantine. Assembling the body requires a DC 18 Craft (armorsmithing) or Craft (weaponsmithing) check. CL 10th; Craft Construct, geas/quest, spider climb, wall of force; Price 20,000 gp; Cost 10,000 gp + 800 XP.
Vanigo 03-11-04, 09:16 PM	Questions? Comments? Suggestions? I'm not really sure about the cost or the CR.
Norseman 03-12-04, 06:01 AM	In the other thread you mentioned having the construct on a wall fortified with AMF's, if it's in the AMF how does it use the Spell-like ability? Does hanging on the wall prevent it from being affected by the wall's AMF? Now, as for CR and cost: CR: Granted it has pathetic melee combat ability, it is not required to fight melee due to its stone climbing ability. It has an organization of 10-15, and just 8 would be able to keep people in an eternal box, which means if you cared you use these things to just hold some fighters at bay until they die of old age. It’s immune to magic (Bedsides short range spells), and melee won’t hit a distant opponent, so that reduces it pretty much to ranged physical attacks… which won’t do didly if they throw a wall of force in the way. So essentially a near permanent stalemate, but since it should always be encountered near its fortress you can expect that it will be prepared with backup and lots of it. I’d say CR 1-3. Cost: I would make a few changes here. 1. The XP cost is not prohibitive enough. Any mage making a fortress, even a home, could use this thing to extensive purposes. Consider, if you will, what happens if they have two such spiders and keep a wall of force in front of the entrance to the fortress; the attackers could never enter by the front door without spellcaster support. Consider four such spiders boxing in attackers and letting the mage who built the spiders blow all the attackers up with a few delayed blast fireballs. Also, following the intended use, the walls could be placed to interfere with siege weaponry, making an assault by siege nearly useless, if not impossible. As these spiders are designed to stay near the walls of the creator’s home, it is natural to assume that their only functions would those mentioned above. These spiders are more like wondrous architecture than anything else, as such I would suggest ruling their creation likewise; I would advise making their XP cost 1/25 of their Gp cost, as per normal magic item rules. 2. The Gp cost seems a little low. Following what I said above, the price for an item that can create unlimited walls of force is: 5X9X2000X2X4 -> 720,000gp. Now, this is obviously too expensive, so we can apply some modifiers. Let’s divide the cost by 3 as it can only be used once every 3.5 rounds. Let’s also divide the cost by 4 since you’re only using about ¼ of the max duration. Furthermore let’s make an ad hoc 1/3 cost as the item pretty much can’t leave your fortress. The new cost is 20,000. Now that means the XP cost should be 800. Now, it appears you made your version ½ this cost so I am intrigued as to how you got your value. However, as your spiders can use multiple abilities you should be using the x2 modifier for multiple abilities, so I think even I am not making this thing expensive enough. And a few other miscellaneous changes: Environment for a creature that always runs home should be Urban, or some such thing. A creature made of metal should have damage reduction; like metal. I guess that’s all.
Vanigo 03-12-04, 05:01 PM	Originally posted by Norseman In the other thread you mentioned having the construct on a wall fortified with AMF's, if it's in the AMF how does it use the Spell-like ability? Does hanging on the wall prevent it from being affected by the wall's AMF? Now, as for CR and cost: CR: Granted it has pathetic melee combat ability, it is not required to fight melee due to its stone climbing ability. It has an organization of 10-15, and just 8 would be able to keep people in an eternal box, which means if you cared you use these things to just hold some fighters at bay until they die of old age. It’s immune to magic (Bedsides short range spells), and melee won’t hit a distant opponent, so that reduces it pretty much to ranged physical attacks… which won’t do didly if they throw a wall of force in the way. So essentially a near permanent stalemate, but since it should always be encountered near its fortress you can expect that it will be prepared with backup and lots of it. I’d say CR 1-3. Well, a bunch of them could box people in indefinetly, but they're too stupid to do so. It also doesn't block ranged physical attacks from anything smaller than a ballista. It doesn't block anything if it's not on its wall; it's too busy running. You may be right about the CR needing to be higher, though. Cost: I would make a few changes here. 1. The XP cost is not prohibitive enough. Any mage making a fortress, even a home, could use this thing to extensive purposes. Consider, if you will, what happens if they have two such spiders and keep a wall of force in front of the entrance to the fortress; the attackers could never enter by the front door without spellcaster support. Consider four such spiders boxing in attackers and letting the mage who built the spiders blow all the attackers up with a few delayed blast fireballs. Also, following the intended use, the walls could be placed to interfere with siege weaponry, making an assault by siege nearly useless, if not impossible. As these spiders are designed to stay near the walls of the creator’s home, it is natural to assume that their only functions would those mentioned above. These spiders are more like wondrous architecture than anything else, as such I would suggest ruling their creation likewise; I would advise making their XP cost 1/25 of their Gp cost, as per normal magic item rules. 2. The Gp cost seems a little low. Following what I said above, the price for an item that can create unlimited walls of force is: 5X9X2000X2X4 -> 720,000gp. Now, this is obviously too expensive, so we can apply some modifiers. Let’s divide the cost by 3 as it can only be used once every 3.5 rounds. Let’s also divide the cost by 4 since you’re only using about ¼ of the max duration. Furthermore let’s make an ad hoc 1/3 cost as the item pretty much can’t leave your fortress. The new cost is 20,000. Now that means the XP cost should be 800. Now, it appears you made your version ½ this cost so I am intrigued as to how you got your value. However, as your spiders can use multiple abilities you should be using the x2 modifier for multiple abilities, so I think even I am not making this thing expensive enough. And a few other miscellaneous changes: Environment for a creature that always runs home should be Urban, or some such thing. A creature made of metal should have damage reduction; like metal. I guess that’s all. Yeah, I suppose you're right about the cost. I just made up the price, to be honest. Anyone else want to chime in? I considered giving it DR 5/cold iron or 5/adamantine, but I decided I was giving it enough already. If/when I raise the price, I might throw one of those in as a sort of booby prize. I made the environment any on the theory that you can build a stronghold anywhere. And you can get around them without magic; just synchronize your catapults or target the spiders with crossbows. As for the stronghold I designed them for, the AMF is in the walls, and the spiders are on the walls, putting them just outside of it. The AMF would cover any holes knocked in the walls, but repair stone is extraordinary, so it doesn't matter much.
Vanigo 03-12-04, 05:17 PM	Y'know, just as an aside, I think it'd be a pretty cool adventure concept to have a castle appear out of nowhere, and have it turn out that it was because a castle was built there some millenia ago, and had these things on it. It was destroyed after the spiders were trapped in some sort of cave that was then sealed off by attackers. The cave was recently reopened by an earthquake or meteor or something, so the spiders set out to 'repair' their home. The spiders themselves are no threat, of course, but almost anything could have moved in, so the basic concept is good for any level adventure.
Vanigo 03-12-04, 08:43 PM	I suppose this is as good a place as any to put the other golem designed for that fortress. Ballista Golem Large Construct Hit Dice: 8d10+30 (74 hp) Initiative: +3 Speed: 5 ft., climb 5 ft. Armor Class: 25 (-1 size, +3 dex, +13 natural) Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+11 Attack: Slam +6 melee (2d10+1) or masterwork ballista +9 ranged (3d8) Full Attack: Slam +6 melee (2d10+1) or masterwork ballista +9 ranged (3d8) Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. Special Attacks: Ballista use, create bolts Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction 10/adamantine, immunity to magic, low-light vision, stone climbing Saves: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +2 Abilities: Str 12, Dex 16, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1 Skills: - Feats: - Environment: Any Organization: Solitary, group (2-5), or squadron (10-15) Challenge Rating: 10 (?) Treasure: Ballista Alignment: Always neutral Advancement: 8-13 HD (Large); 14-25 HD (Huge) Level Adjustment: - A ballista golem is a heavily modified form of stone golem. Designed to defend castles, they cling to walls and fire on attacking forces. They are often controlled by a special amulet created at the same time as the golem (see below). This is helpful, as a human can direct the golem to attack the most useful targets while remaining safely inside the castle. Ballista golems without these amulets are typically given commands such as "Attack anyone who approaches the castle and is not on the main road" or "Attack any siege weapons that are not inside the castle." Ballista golems bear little physical resemblance to more conventional golems. They typically have one enormous arm holding a full-sized ballista, and one smaller, more agile arm used to reload it. They have four to six small legs, which they use to cling to walls. Far slower and weaker in melee then their cousins, they are ill-suited to anything but defending fortifications. A typical ballista golem is about 9 feet tall and weighs 2000 pounds. Combat Ballista golems are formidable and extremely predictable. They will fire on any hostile target, or slam any target in melee range if they are threatened. They never move unless ordered to do so, and are far too slow for such orders to have much use in combat. Ballista Use (Ex): A ballista golem incoporates a standard ballista, which it may use as if it were a huge creature. This ballista can be salvaged if the golem is destroyed. It also has a quiver capable of holding up to 10 ballista bolts. Create Bolts (Sp): Once an hour, a ballista golem can magically create ten ballista bolts in its quiver. These bolts remain in existance for up to one hour. This is otherwise identical to a major creation spell cast by a 10th level sorcerer. Immunity to Magic (Ex): A ballista golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below. A transmute rock to mud spell slows a ballista golem (as the slow spell) for 2d6 rounds, with no saving throw, while transmute mud to rock heals all of its lost hit points. A stone to flesh spell does not actually change the golem's structure but negates its damage reduction and immunity to magic for 1 full round. Stone Climbing (Ex): A ballista golem can cling to any stone surface as if it were under the effects of spider climb. This ability is always in effect. Construction A ballista golem's body is chiseled from a single block of hard stone, such as granite, weighing at least 3,000 pounds. The stone must be of exceptional quality, and costs 5,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 17 Craft (sculpting) check or a DC 17 Craft (stonemasonry) check. A ballista golem's ballista is simply a masterwork ballista, costing 1,500 gp. CL 14th; Craft Construct, antimagic field, [i]geas/quest, major creation, spider climb; Price 86,500 gp; Cost 49,000 gp + 3,000 XP. Ballista Golem Control Amulet This amulet, created at the same time as and linked to a particular ballista golem, allows its bearer to command that ballista golem as if he were the golem's creator. Furthermore, the amulet includes a large clear crystal that displays whatever the golem can see, and the bearer can command the golem from anywhere on the same plane. A control amulet does not need to be worn to function. When a ballista golem is created, a control amulet can be created at no extra cost. CL 14th; Craft Construct, antimagic field, [i]geas/quest, major creation, spider climb; Price -; Cost -.
Vlorich San'cheh 03-12-04, 08:59 PM	A few things -as a LARGE Construct it should have +30 HP, not +10 ; thus 8d10+30(74) -the DR10/magic and Immunity to magic seems a little kooky. Only magic wpns can get thru, but its immune to magic spell effects... though you can keep it like that for balance reasons or personal preference. -also with 8HD its BAB is +6/+1 (constructs use the Cleric BAB) so+6 and +1 from STR should be +7/+2 melee, +9 (i assume only 1 ballista/round ). Personally I'd want the ballista to have a magical enhancement or something or have a better/stronger slam attack but thats just me. I like the idea and the look of these things. Very nice.
Vanigo 03-12-04, 09:12 PM	Originally posted by Vlorich San'cheh A few things -as a LARGE Construct it should have +30 HP, not +10 ; thus 8d10+30(74) -the DR10/magic and Immunity to magic seems a little kooky. Only magic wpns can get thru, but its immune to magic spell effects... though you can keep it like that for balance reasons or personal preference. -also with 8HD its BAB is +6/+1 (constructs use the Cleric BAB) so+6 and +1 from STR should be +7/+2 melee, +9 (i assume only 1 ballista/round ). Personally I'd want the ballista to have a magical enhancement or something or have a better/stronger slam attack but thats just me. I like the idea and the look of these things. Very nice. - Already fixed. - ... Wait, why did I make it magic? As a modified stone golem, it should have DR 10/adamantine. - Oops. I'll fix that.
BrianMc223 03-12-04, 10:45 PM	You sir, are a god. :bow: :tiphat: