CR of this Monster [Archive] - Wizards Community

CR of this Monster [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AT-AT Assault
05-08-06, 12:20 AM Recently I created a Metroid from the Nintendo video game series 'Metroid'. To be blunt, Im not used to the CR system. I was hoping you DnD buffs could rate it for me. A side note, this would be used in a low magic Future game, so no spells to restore permanent ability drain(such as restoration). Thanks.
Spike_Fightwicky
05-08-06, 08:18 AM Ask and thou shalt receive:

Metroid, Tiny Abberation

- Tiny? I'd place them at small or medium going by Metroid Prime, medium or large going by Metroid, Super Metroid, Metroid 2 - The Return of Samus. Tiny's about the size of a common house cat.

Hit Dice: 7d8+14 (49 HP)

- At 16 Con (+3 bonus), his hit points should be 7d8+21 (52 HP). -Formula= 7*4.5 + 21 (4.5 is the mid-range of a d8, and round down).

Initiative: +7 (+2 size, +5 Dex)

- Size is not a factor for initiative. His Init. should be +5

Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+21 (+25 when using Improved Grab)

- Keep in mind that the Improved Grab ability does NOT provide any grapple bonus. The Improved Grapple feat gives +4. You may want to give him the feat :D

Attack: Bite +12 melee (2d6-3)
Full Attack: Bite +12 melee (2d6-3)

- This is HUGE damage for a tiny creature (1d3 is average bite damage for a tiny creature). If you want to increase his damage when he's grappling, I'd suggest giving him an (Ex) ability similar to constrict.

Special Qualities: Blindsight, Damage Reduction 15/cold, Cold Vulnerability

- There's an issue with DR 15/Cold. Cold is an energy type, and doesn't apply as a way to get through DR. I have a suggestion on how to handle this:

Give him DR 15/Special*(See Text)

(Text)A weapon that deals cold damage in addition to its normal damage or as its normal damage (Such as a weapon with the 'Frost' enchancement) bypasses this creature's DR. Against weapons that do not deal cold damage, treat the Metroid as having DR 15/-.

It's kind of a cleaner way (rules-wise) of handling the DR.

Feats: Elusive Target, Weapon Finesse(Bite)

- You're missing a feat. Monster gain feats just like PCs. One at its first hit dice, third hit dice, and every 3 hit dice thereafter. Also, many creatures that are weak but have high dex get Weapon Finesse as a racial bonus feat. Finally, Weapon Finesse applies to all natural attacks and light weapons, so you don't need to specify (Bite).

Challenge Ratting: ???

- This is quite difficult. He's a very special case. Hard to kill without cold, but has to grapple to deal damage. We'll see about his CR in a bit.

Altough they appear to be cunning hunters, Metroids are, in fact, highly advanced parasites.

- From this description, I'd give the Metroid a higher wisdom modifier. Remember: Wisdom isn't just a representative of worldly enlightenment. Look at some of the skills wisdom affects: Spot, Listen and Survival. All important skills for predators. Wisdom represents something like an awareness of your environment. As such, I'd give him a higher wisdom score (maybe 12?).

Improved Grab(ex): Metroids receive a +20 Racial Bonus to grapple checks. Once a Metroid has attacked a Tiny or bigger creature with its bite it can attempt to start a grapple as a free action, it does not provoke an attack of opportunity in doing so. No initial touch attack is required. The metroid does not apply its grapple penalty due to size in this situation.

- This makes a disproportionately high grapple bonus for this monster. I'm looking at a CR of somewhere around 5 (plus or minus). A +21 grapple is HUGE (some would say IMPOSSIBLE) at that level. Maybe you should keep his size modifiers included (21-8 is still +13, which is very high for that level).

Attach(ex)

- See my comment about adding a Constrict-like ability.

Life Force Drain(ex)

- Permanent Con damage is harsh, especially in a low-magic environement. Also, in the games, the damage from a metroid drain was always recoverable.

Cold Vulnerability(ex)

- You should rename the ability. Cold Vulnerability already exists (50% extra damage from any cold damage source). To avoid confusion, you should probably rename it.

Whew, that's about it. I'll wait for your reply (whether or not you want to change it) and we'll see what we can do from there.
AT-AT Assault
05-08-06, 03:03 PM - Tiny? I'd place them at small or medium going by Metroid Prime, medium or large going by Metroid, Super Metroid, Metroid 2 - The Return of Samus. Tiny's about the size of a common house cat.Well the common Metroid on Prime was about the size the Morph ball, and that's about Tiny(note I did allow advancement up to medium to account for Metroid Prime(the creature, not the game)). I have never played any of the NES, SNES, or Gameboy Metroids.-At 16 Con (+3 bonus), his hit points should be 7d8+21 (52 HP). -Formula= 7*4.5 + 21 (4.5 is the mid-range of a d8, and round down).Doh. I meant to put them back down to 15 Con.- Size is not a factor for initiative. His Init. should be +5I did not know that.- Keep in mind that the Improved Grab ability does NOT provide any grapple bonus. The Improved Grapple feat gives +4. You may want to give him the feat :DI had designed this using D20 Modern and DnD. In Modern it said a Small or smaller does not suffer its size penalty to Grapple checks.- This is HUGE damage for a tiny creature (1d3 is average bite damage for a tiny creature). If you want to increase his damage when he's grappling, I'd suggest giving him an (Ex) ability similar to constrict.Well I always got the idea that Metroids were pretty viscious. Add to that, I could not find the chart for average damage based on size, nor a Tiny creature with a bite for some reason(maybe I didnt look hard enough, oh well). I'll go with 1d4 since its got 4 mandibles(other than what I think would be an average of 2 for bite attacks).
- There's an issue with DR 15/Cold. Cold is an energy type, and doesn't apply as a way to get through DR. I have a suggestion on how to handle this:

Give him DR 15/Special*(See Text)

(Text)A weapon that deals cold damage in addition to its normal damage or as its normal damage (Such as a weapon with the 'Frost' enchancement) bypasses this creature's DR. Against weapons that do not deal cold damage, treat the Metroid as having DR 15/-.

It's kind of a cleaner way (rules-wise) of handling the DR.Okay Cool idea, but doesnt any DR bypassing weapon bypass X/- ? Even though its low magic I didnt want the Metroid to get shafted(since its DR is natural "toughness" not a magically produced effect).- You're missing a feat. Monster gain feats just like PCs. One at its first hit dice, third hit dice, and every 3 hit dice thereafter. Also, many creatures that are weak but have high dex get Weapon Finesse as a racial bonus feat. Finally, Weapon Finesse applies to all natural attacks and light weapons, so you don't need to specify (Bite).Again this was designed for a Future setting, so I mainly used D20M as my base, and it says Aberrations get 1 feat per 4 HD, and Finesse still only applies to a chosen weapon. I just thought I'd get more reception here than on the D20M boards(though this is still on topic here since it is a monster). I didnt know that about weak creatures getting WF as a bonus feat, Im rather new to DnD.- From this description, I'd give the Metroid a higher wisdom modifier. Remember: Wisdom isn't just a representative of worldly enlightenment. Look at some of the skills wisdom affects: Spot, Listen and Survival. All important skills for predators. Wisdom represents something like an awareness of your environment. As such, I'd give him a higher wisdom score (maybe 12?).. Well it is just a parasite, So I didnt think it should have high mental. Added to the fact its automatically aware of anything within its blindsight range(with line of effect of course).- This makes a disproportionately high grapple bonus for this monster. I'm looking at a CR of somewhere around 5 (plus or minus). A +21 grapple is HUGE (some would say IMPOSSIBLE) at that level. Maybe you should keep his size modifiers included (21-8 is still +13, which is very high for that level).So what do you recommend for a grapple check?- Permanent Con damage is harsh, especially in a low-magic environement. Also, in the games, the damage from a metroid drain was always recoverable.The reason why the energy is replenishable is becuase the Metroid has to get through the sheilds on Samus' suit. I guess I'll have to add a comment about that in the description.[from what I saw of the Space Pirates in the Prime games, any unsheilded victim is pretty much a goner].- You should rename the ability. Cold Vulnerability already exists (50% extra damage from any cold damage source). To avoid confusion, you should probably rename it.

Whew, that's about it. I'll wait for your reply (whether or not you want to change it) and we'll see what we can do from there.Then I guess I'll rename it Cold Susceptibility. Thanks.
Spike_Fightwicky
05-09-06, 08:36 AM Well the common Metroid on Prime was about the size the Morph ball, and that's about Tiny(note I did allow advancement up to medium to account for Metroid Prime(the creature, not the game)). I have never played any of the NES, SNES, or Gameboy Metroids.

- In the original Metroid games they were about as big as Samus was. However, I do remember now that in Prime they weren't too big at all.

Doh. I meant to put them back down to 15 Con.

- Fair enough :D

I did not know that.I had designed this using D20 Modern and DnD. In Modern it said a Small or smaller does not suffer its size penalty to Grapple checks.

Grapple Modifier: A creature’s size works in its favor when grappling, if that creature is Large or larger in size. Conversely, a creature of Small or smaller size is at a disadvantage because of its size when grappling. Instead of using a creature’s size modifier on a grapple check (as would be done for a melee or ranged attack roll), use the appropriate grapple modifier from Table: Grapple Modifiers

- Not sure where you got this information, but grappling works pretty much the same in d20 Modern as far as size modifiers go.

Well I always got the idea that Metroids were pretty viscious. Add to that, I could not find the chart for average damage based on size, nor a Tiny creature with a bite for some reason(maybe I didnt look hard enough, oh well). I'll go with 1d4 since its got 4 mandibles(other than what I think would be an average of 2 for bite attacks).

- That's fine. You can give them the Constrict ability to make them a little more dangerous when they're grappling.

Constrict (Ex): The creature crushes the opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature’s entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability (see below), it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab.

- It's not an exact description of what the metroid does (I imagine it kind of crushing and grinding). If the metroid has this ability (or a similar ability), it can deal extra damage when grappling (give it constrict 2d6 or something, and then it deals an extra 2d6 damage whenever it makes a grapple check to damage the person its grappling).

Okay Cool idea, but doesnt any DR bypassing weapon bypass X/- ? Even though its low magic I didnt want the Metroid to get shafted(since its DR is natural "toughness" not a magically produced effect).

- Nope. DR 15/- means that it reduces 15 damage from all non-energy attacks. Magic weapons only go bypass damage reduction if it has a damage type (I don't think DR x/- is very prevalent in d20 Modern, but in D&D, it represents the toughest of monsters (like earth elementals), since there's not way to bypass the DR). So DR 15/- represents the toughest of the tough.

Again this was designed for a Future setting, so I mainly used D20M as my base, and it says Aberrations get 1 feat per 4 HD, and Finesse still only applies to a chosen weapon. I just thought I'd get more reception here than on the D20M boards(though this is still on topic here since it is a monster).

- No worries. I know the Modern rules too.

I didnt know that about weak creatures getting WF as a bonus feat, Im rather new to DnD..

- Some of them do, usually to compensate for low strength scores. Look up the Cat in d20 Modern and you can see he gets bonus feats for it. Also, I just remembered that in Modern Weapon Finesse works like Weapon Focus (you pick your weapon), so disregard my comment about weapon finesse.

Well it is just a parasite, So I didnt think it should have high mental. Added to the fact its automatically aware of anything within its blindsight range(with line of effect of course).

- Fair enough.

So what do you recommend for a grapple check?

- Well, +13 is a very good modifier for a CR 4-5 grappler, and grappling is what the metroid does. If you think +13 is still a little low, you can give him the Improved Grapple feat for another boost of +4.

.Then I guess I'll rename it Cold Susceptibility. Thanks.

- Yeah, I just read up on that. In Super Metroid, one of the toughest non-boss monsters in the game gets drained by a giant metroid in little time. Whatever it drains ends up crumbling to dust (except Mother Brain, but that thing has insane regenerative powers).
AT-AT Assault
05-09-06, 02:14 PM - Not sure where you got this information, but grappling works pretty much the same in d20 Modern as far as size modifiers go.I've used mainly the Modern book not the SRD, but I'll use the SRD in this instanceImproved Grab (Ex): If the creature hits with a melee weapon it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action, doing so without provoking attacks of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise stated, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. A Small or smaller creature using improved grab does not apply its grapple modifier to its grapple check.So Improved grab negates grapple penalties due to size.- That's fine. You can give them the Constrict ability to make them a little more dangerous when they're grappling.It's not an exact description of what the metroid does (I imagine it kind of crushing and grinding). If the metroid has this ability (or a similar ability), it can deal extra damage when grappling (give it constrict 2d6 or something, and then it deals an extra 2d6 damage whenever it makes a grapple check to damage the person its grappling).Okay then I'll give them 1d4 bite and 1d6 constrict.- Nope. DR 15/- means that it reduces 15 damage from all non-energy attacks. Magic weapons only go bypass damage reduction if it has a damage type (I don't think DR x/- is very prevalent in d20 Modern, but in D&D, it represents the toughest of monsters (like earth elementals), since there's not way to bypass the DR). So DR 15/- represents the toughest of the tough.I did not know that either. I only have the DnD SRD, and it was a little rough on explaining some rules, DR included.- Some of them do, usually to compensate for low strength scores. Look up the Cat in d20 Modern and you can see he gets bonus feats for it. Also, I just remembered that in Modern Weapon Finesse works like Weapon Focus (you pick your weapon), so disregard my comment about weapon finesse.Okay then I'll give Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. I wasnt going to do it since I wasnt sure about how to give out bonus feats like that. Now I know(bonus feats are basically special abilities in a sense- Well, +13 is a very good modifier for a CR 4-5 grappler, and grappling is what the metroid does. If you think +13 is still a little low, you can give him the Improved Grapple feat for another boost of +4.Since I'll give the Metroid WF as a bonus feat I'll be able to fit in Improved Grapple.- Yeah, I just read up on that. In Super Metroid, one of the toughest non-boss monsters in the game gets drained by a giant metroid in little time. Whatever it drains ends up crumbling to dust (except Mother Brain, but that thing has insane regenerative powers).Then When the next Nintendo console comes out I'll be sure to download the Old-School Metroids. :D
AT-AT Assault
05-09-06, 02:38 PM So, with your help Spike, what do you think the CR comes out to?
Spike_Fightwicky
05-10-06, 01:01 PM One thing I noticed, his HP should be 45. (4.5 X 7) + 14

So Improved grab negates grapple penalties due to size.

:thinks:

Wow, looks like I need to brush up on my reading skills :eek:
You are correct, it looks like this little guy doesn't suffer size penalties for grappling. I'm too used to the D&D rules...

Okay then I'll give Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. I wasnt going to do it since I wasnt sure about how to give out bonus feats like that. Now I know(bonus feats are basically special abilities in a sense) Since I'll give the Metroid WF as a bonus feat I'll be able to fit in Improved Grapple.

- Acutally, you may not need even Improved Grapple. His grapple check without it is still very high.

Then When the next Nintendo console comes out I'll be sure to download the Old-School Metroids. :D

- Yeah, that'll be sweet! :D

So, with your help Spike, what do you think the CR comes out to?

Well, here's the key features:
- High DR that's tough to get around
- A crippling vulnerability to cold (depending on the setting, cold damage rarity will differ)
- Low damage
- High-ish AC (he won't be sniped by scorching rays as easily with 17 AC against touch)
- A crippling CON drain ability
- Flight, but not ranged attacks, so it balances itself out.

I'm thinking possibly around 6. Again, depending on the party's ability to either deal massive melee damage to overcome its DR or the availability of energy attacks, the fight may or may not be over quickly.
AT-AT Assault
05-10-06, 04:11 PM I thought creatures get their first HD maximized. Anyway, Thanks. That taught me a lot about CR, though I still have more to learn. I mainly play SW D20 so almost every encounter involves other characters as enemies, and that makes creating opponets a WHOLE lot easier. I think I'll stat out Hunter Metroids and Metroid Primes(I've got an idea how Metroid Prime came about, and thus Im naming the class of Metoid it/she belongs to after it/her). I'll Stamp a CR 6-10 on it with a footnote. Because in the Future, you're not as Personal as you're are in DnD(you've got powered armor and vehicles). So while this would be a nasty little creature in DnD, its not so viscious to higher tech societies.

Edit: I'll get rid of Improved Grapple and give it Improved Intiative :angelhide .
Spike_Fightwicky
05-10-06, 04:31 PM I thought creatures get their first HD maximized. Anyway, Thanks. That taught me a lot about CR, though I still have more to learn. I mainly play SW D20 so almost every encounter involves other characters as enemies, and that makes creating opponets a WHOLE lot easier. I think I'll stat out Hunter Metroids and Metroid Primes(I've got an idea how Metroid Prime came about, and thus Im naming the class of Metoid it/she belongs to after it/her). I'll Stamp a CR 6-10 on it with a footnote. Because in the Future, you're not as Personal as you're are in DnD(you've got powered armor and vehicles). So while this would be a nasty little creature in DnD, its not so viscious to higher tech societies.

Edit: I'll get rid of Improved Grapple and give it Improved Intiative :angelhide .

Glad I could help! :D

I've mostly played D&D and DMed low power groups and high power munchkins alike, so I think (I hope) that I can get a CR more or less accurate. I'm likely going to be running a SW D20 game soon (and like you said, encounters are a little different compared to D&D). Should be fun!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AT-AT Assault 05-08-06, 12:20 AM	Recently I created a Metroid from the Nintendo video game series 'Metroid'. To be blunt, Im not used to the CR system. I was hoping you DnD buffs could rate it for me. A side note, this would be used in a low magic Future game, so no spells to restore permanent ability drain(such as restoration). Thanks.
Spike_Fightwicky 05-08-06, 08:18 AM	Ask and thou shalt receive: Metroid, Tiny Abberation - Tiny? I'd place them at small or medium going by Metroid Prime, medium or large going by Metroid, Super Metroid, Metroid 2 - The Return of Samus. Tiny's about the size of a common house cat. Hit Dice: 7d8+14 (49 HP) - At 16 Con (+3 bonus), his hit points should be 7d8+21 (52 HP). -Formula= 74.5 + 21 (4.5 is the mid-range of a d8, and round down). Initiative: +7 (+2 size, +5 Dex) - Size is not a factor for initiative. His Init. should be +5 Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+21 (+25 when using Improved Grab) - Keep in mind that the Improved Grab ability does NOT provide any grapple bonus. The Improved Grapple feat gives +4. You may want to give him the feat :D Attack: Bite +12 melee (2d6-3) Full Attack: Bite +12 melee (2d6-3) - This is HUGE damage for a tiny creature (1d3 is average bite damage for a tiny creature). If you want to increase his damage when he's grappling, I'd suggest giving him an (Ex) ability similar to constrict. Special Qualities: Blindsight, Damage Reduction 15/cold, Cold Vulnerability - There's an issue with DR 15/Cold. Cold is an energy type, and doesn't apply as a way to get through DR. I have a suggestion on how to handle this: Give him DR 15/Special(See Text) (Text)A weapon that deals cold damage in addition to its normal damage or as its normal damage (Such as a weapon with the 'Frost' enchancement) bypasses this creature's DR. Against weapons that do not deal cold damage, treat the Metroid as having DR 15/-. It's kind of a cleaner way (rules-wise) of handling the DR. Feats: Elusive Target, Weapon Finesse(Bite) - You're missing a feat. Monster gain feats just like PCs. One at its first hit dice, third hit dice, and every 3 hit dice thereafter. Also, many creatures that are weak but have high dex get Weapon Finesse as a racial bonus feat. Finally, Weapon Finesse applies to all natural attacks and light weapons, so you don't need to specify (Bite). Challenge Ratting: ??? - This is quite difficult. He's a very special case. Hard to kill without cold, but has to grapple to deal damage. We'll see about his CR in a bit. Altough they appear to be cunning hunters, Metroids are, in fact, highly advanced parasites. - From this description, I'd give the Metroid a higher wisdom modifier. Remember: Wisdom isn't just a representative of worldly enlightenment. Look at some of the skills wisdom affects: Spot, Listen and Survival. All important skills for predators. Wisdom represents something like an awareness of your environment. As such, I'd give him a higher wisdom score (maybe 12?). Improved Grab(ex): Metroids receive a +20 Racial Bonus to grapple checks. Once a Metroid has attacked a Tiny or bigger creature with its bite it can attempt to start a grapple as a free action, it does not provoke an attack of opportunity in doing so. No initial touch attack is required. The metroid does not apply its grapple penalty due to size in this situation. - This makes a disproportionately high grapple bonus for this monster. I'm looking at a CR of somewhere around 5 (plus or minus). A +21 grapple is HUGE (some would say IMPOSSIBLE) at that level. Maybe you should keep his size modifiers included (21-8 is still +13, which is very high for that level). Attach(ex) - See my comment about adding a Constrict-like ability. Life Force Drain(ex) - Permanent Con damage is harsh, especially in a low-magic environement. Also, in the games, the damage from a metroid drain was always recoverable. Cold Vulnerability(ex) - You should rename the ability. Cold Vulnerability already exists (50% extra damage from any cold damage source). To avoid confusion, you should probably rename it. Whew, that's about it. I'll wait for your reply (whether or not you want to change it) and we'll see what we can do from there.
AT-AT Assault 05-08-06, 03:03 PM	- Tiny? I'd place them at small or medium going by Metroid Prime, medium or large going by Metroid, Super Metroid, Metroid 2 - The Return of Samus. Tiny's about the size of a common house cat.Well the common Metroid on Prime was about the size the Morph ball, and that's about Tiny(note I did allow advancement up to medium to account for Metroid Prime(the creature, not the game)). I have never played any of the NES, SNES, or Gameboy Metroids.-At 16 Con (+3 bonus), his hit points should be 7d8+21 (52 HP). -Formula= 74.5 + 21 (4.5 is the mid-range of a d8, and round down).Doh. I meant to put them back down to 15 Con.- Size is not a factor for initiative. His Init. should be +5I did not know that.- Keep in mind that the Improved Grab ability does NOT provide any grapple bonus. The Improved Grapple feat gives +4. You may want to give him the feat :DI had designed this using D20 Modern and DnD. In Modern it said a Small or smaller does not suffer its size penalty to Grapple checks.- This is HUGE damage for a tiny creature (1d3 is average bite damage for a tiny creature). If you want to increase his damage when he's grappling, I'd suggest giving him an (Ex) ability similar to constrict.Well I always got the idea that Metroids were pretty viscious. Add to that, I could not find the chart for average damage based on size, nor a Tiny creature with a bite for some reason(maybe I didnt look hard enough, oh well). I'll go with 1d4 since its got 4 mandibles(other than what I think would be an average of 2 for bite attacks). - There's an issue with DR 15/Cold. Cold is an energy type, and doesn't apply as a way to get through DR. I have a suggestion on how to handle this: Give him DR 15/Special(See Text) (Text)A weapon that deals cold damage in addition to its normal damage or as its normal damage (Such as a weapon with the 'Frost' enchancement) bypasses this creature's DR. Against weapons that do not deal cold damage, treat the Metroid as having DR 15/-. It's kind of a cleaner way (rules-wise) of handling the DR.Okay Cool idea, but doesnt any DR bypassing weapon bypass X/- ? Even though its low magic I didnt want the Metroid to get shafted(since its DR is natural "toughness" not a magically produced effect).- You're missing a feat. Monster gain feats just like PCs. One at its first hit dice, third hit dice, and every 3 hit dice thereafter. Also, many creatures that are weak but have high dex get Weapon Finesse as a racial bonus feat. Finally, Weapon Finesse applies to all natural attacks and light weapons, so you don't need to specify (Bite).Again this was designed for a Future setting, so I mainly used D20M as my base, and it says Aberrations get 1 feat per 4 HD, and Finesse still only applies to a chosen weapon. I just thought I'd get more reception here than on the D20M boards(though this is still on topic here since it is a monster). I didnt know that about weak creatures getting WF as a bonus feat, Im rather new to DnD.- From this description, I'd give the Metroid a higher wisdom modifier. Remember: Wisdom isn't just a representative of worldly enlightenment. Look at some of the skills wisdom affects: Spot, Listen and Survival. All important skills for predators. Wisdom represents something like an awareness of your environment. As such, I'd give him a higher wisdom score (maybe 12?).. Well it is just a parasite, So I didnt think it should have high mental. Added to the fact its automatically aware of anything within its blindsight range(with line of effect of course).- This makes a disproportionately high grapple bonus for this monster. I'm looking at a CR of somewhere around 5 (plus or minus). A +21 grapple is HUGE (some would say IMPOSSIBLE) at that level. Maybe you should keep his size modifiers included (21-8 is still +13, which is very high for that level).So what do you recommend for a grapple check?- Permanent Con damage is harsh, especially in a low-magic environement. Also, in the games, the damage from a metroid drain was always recoverable.The reason why the energy is replenishable is becuase the Metroid has to get through the sheilds on Samus' suit. I guess I'll have to add a comment about that in the description.[from what I saw of the Space Pirates in the Prime games, any unsheilded victim is pretty much a goner].- You should rename the ability. Cold Vulnerability already exists (50% extra damage from any cold damage source). To avoid confusion, you should probably rename it. Whew, that's about it. I'll wait for your reply (whether or not you want to change it) and we'll see what we can do from there.Then I guess I'll rename it Cold Susceptibility. Thanks.
Spike_Fightwicky 05-09-06, 08:36 AM	Well the common Metroid on Prime was about the size the Morph ball, and that's about Tiny(note I did allow advancement up to medium to account for Metroid Prime(the creature, not the game)). I have never played any of the NES, SNES, or Gameboy Metroids. - In the original Metroid games they were about as big as Samus was. However, I do remember now that in Prime they weren't too big at all. Doh. I meant to put them back down to 15 Con. - Fair enough :D I did not know that.I had designed this using D20 Modern and DnD. In Modern it said a Small or smaller does not suffer its size penalty to Grapple checks. Grapple Modifier: A creature’s size works in its favor when grappling, if that creature is Large or larger in size. Conversely, a creature of Small or smaller size is at a disadvantage because of its size when grappling. Instead of using a creature’s size modifier on a grapple check (as would be done for a melee or ranged attack roll), use the appropriate grapple modifier from Table: Grapple Modifiers - Not sure where you got this information, but grappling works pretty much the same in d20 Modern as far as size modifiers go. Well I always got the idea that Metroids were pretty viscious. Add to that, I could not find the chart for average damage based on size, nor a Tiny creature with a bite for some reason(maybe I didnt look hard enough, oh well). I'll go with 1d4 since its got 4 mandibles(other than what I think would be an average of 2 for bite attacks). - That's fine. You can give them the Constrict ability to make them a little more dangerous when they're grappling. Constrict (Ex): The creature crushes the opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature’s entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability (see below), it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab. - It's not an exact description of what the metroid does (I imagine it kind of crushing and grinding). If the metroid has this ability (or a similar ability), it can deal extra damage when grappling (give it constrict 2d6 or something, and then it deals an extra 2d6 damage whenever it makes a grapple check to damage the person its grappling). Okay Cool idea, but doesnt any DR bypassing weapon bypass X/- ? Even though its low magic I didnt want the Metroid to get shafted(since its DR is natural "toughness" not a magically produced effect). - Nope. DR 15/- means that it reduces 15 damage from all non-energy attacks. Magic weapons only go bypass damage reduction if it has a damage type (I don't think DR x/- is very prevalent in d20 Modern, but in D&D, it represents the toughest of monsters (like earth elementals), since there's not way to bypass the DR). So DR 15/- represents the toughest of the tough. Again this was designed for a Future setting, so I mainly used D20M as my base, and it says Aberrations get 1 feat per 4 HD, and Finesse still only applies to a chosen weapon. I just thought I'd get more reception here than on the D20M boards(though this is still on topic here since it is a monster). - No worries. I know the Modern rules too. I didnt know that about weak creatures getting WF as a bonus feat, Im rather new to DnD.. - Some of them do, usually to compensate for low strength scores. Look up the Cat in d20 Modern and you can see he gets bonus feats for it. Also, I just remembered that in Modern Weapon Finesse works like Weapon Focus (you pick your weapon), so disregard my comment about weapon finesse. Well it is just a parasite, So I didnt think it should have high mental. Added to the fact its automatically aware of anything within its blindsight range(with line of effect of course). - Fair enough. So what do you recommend for a grapple check? - Well, +13 is a very good modifier for a CR 4-5 grappler, and grappling is what the metroid does. If you think +13 is still a little low, you can give him the Improved Grapple feat for another boost of +4. .Then I guess I'll rename it Cold Susceptibility. Thanks. - Yeah, I just read up on that. In Super Metroid, one of the toughest non-boss monsters in the game gets drained by a giant metroid in little time. Whatever it drains ends up crumbling to dust (except Mother Brain, but that thing has insane regenerative powers).
AT-AT Assault 05-09-06, 02:14 PM	- Not sure where you got this information, but grappling works pretty much the same in d20 Modern as far as size modifiers go.I've used mainly the Modern book not the SRD, but I'll use the SRD in this instanceImproved Grab (Ex): If the creature hits with a melee weapon it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action, doing so without provoking attacks of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise stated, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. A Small or smaller creature using improved grab does not apply its grapple modifier to its grapple check.So Improved grab negates grapple penalties due to size.- That's fine. You can give them the Constrict ability to make them a little more dangerous when they're grappling.It's not an exact description of what the metroid does (I imagine it kind of crushing and grinding). If the metroid has this ability (or a similar ability), it can deal extra damage when grappling (give it constrict 2d6 or something, and then it deals an extra 2d6 damage whenever it makes a grapple check to damage the person its grappling).Okay then I'll give them 1d4 bite and 1d6 constrict.- Nope. DR 15/- means that it reduces 15 damage from all non-energy attacks. Magic weapons only go bypass damage reduction if it has a damage type (I don't think DR x/- is very prevalent in d20 Modern, but in D&D, it represents the toughest of monsters (like earth elementals), since there's not way to bypass the DR). So DR 15/- represents the toughest of the tough.I did not know that either. I only have the DnD SRD, and it was a little rough on explaining some rules, DR included.- Some of them do, usually to compensate for low strength scores. Look up the Cat in d20 Modern and you can see he gets bonus feats for it. Also, I just remembered that in Modern Weapon Finesse works like Weapon Focus (you pick your weapon), so disregard my comment about weapon finesse.Okay then I'll give Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. I wasnt going to do it since I wasnt sure about how to give out bonus feats like that. Now I know(bonus feats are basically special abilities in a sense- Well, +13 is a very good modifier for a CR 4-5 grappler, and grappling is what the metroid does. If you think +13 is still a little low, you can give him the Improved Grapple feat for another boost of +4.Since I'll give the Metroid WF as a bonus feat I'll be able to fit in Improved Grapple.- Yeah, I just read up on that. In Super Metroid, one of the toughest non-boss monsters in the game gets drained by a giant metroid in little time. Whatever it drains ends up crumbling to dust (except Mother Brain, but that thing has insane regenerative powers).Then When the next Nintendo console comes out I'll be sure to download the Old-School Metroids. :D
AT-AT Assault 05-09-06, 02:38 PM	So, with your help Spike, what do you think the CR comes out to?
Spike_Fightwicky 05-10-06, 01:01 PM	One thing I noticed, his HP should be 45. (4.5 X 7) + 14 So Improved grab negates grapple penalties due to size. :thinks: Wow, looks like I need to brush up on my reading skills :eek: You are correct, it looks like this little guy doesn't suffer size penalties for grappling. I'm too used to the D&D rules... Okay then I'll give Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. I wasnt going to do it since I wasnt sure about how to give out bonus feats like that. Now I know(bonus feats are basically special abilities in a sense) Since I'll give the Metroid WF as a bonus feat I'll be able to fit in Improved Grapple. - Acutally, you may not need even Improved Grapple. His grapple check without it is still very high. Then When the next Nintendo console comes out I'll be sure to download the Old-School Metroids. :D - Yeah, that'll be sweet! :D So, with your help Spike, what do you think the CR comes out to? Well, here's the key features: - High DR that's tough to get around - A crippling vulnerability to cold (depending on the setting, cold damage rarity will differ) - Low damage - High-ish AC (he won't be sniped by scorching rays as easily with 17 AC against touch) - A crippling CON drain ability - Flight, but not ranged attacks, so it balances itself out. I'm thinking possibly around 6. Again, depending on the party's ability to either deal massive melee damage to overcome its DR or the availability of energy attacks, the fight may or may not be over quickly.
AT-AT Assault 05-10-06, 04:11 PM	I thought creatures get their first HD maximized. Anyway, Thanks. That taught me a lot about CR, though I still have more to learn. I mainly play SW D20 so almost every encounter involves other characters as enemies, and that makes creating opponets a WHOLE lot easier. I think I'll stat out Hunter Metroids and Metroid Primes(I've got an idea how Metroid Prime came about, and thus Im naming the class of Metoid it/she belongs to after it/her). I'll Stamp a CR 6-10 on it with a footnote. Because in the Future, you're not as Personal as you're are in DnD(you've got powered armor and vehicles). So while this would be a nasty little creature in DnD, its not so viscious to higher tech societies. Edit: I'll get rid of Improved Grapple and give it Improved Intiative :angelhide .
Spike_Fightwicky 05-10-06, 04:31 PM	I thought creatures get their first HD maximized. Anyway, Thanks. That taught me a lot about CR, though I still have more to learn. I mainly play SW D20 so almost every encounter involves other characters as enemies, and that makes creating opponets a WHOLE lot easier. I think I'll stat out Hunter Metroids and Metroid Primes(I've got an idea how Metroid Prime came about, and thus Im naming the class of Metoid it/she belongs to after it/her). I'll Stamp a CR 6-10 on it with a footnote. Because in the Future, you're not as Personal as you're are in DnD(you've got powered armor and vehicles). So while this would be a nasty little creature in DnD, its not so viscious to higher tech societies. Edit: I'll get rid of Improved Grapple and give it Improved Intiative :angelhide . Glad I could help! :D I've mostly played D&D and DMed low power groups and high power munchkins alike, so I think (I hope) that I can get a CR more or less accurate. I'm likely going to be running a SW D20 game soon (and like you said, encounters are a little different compared to D&D). Should be fun!