Post/Author/DateTime	Post
soonerpat 09-30-04, 01:11 PM	HI, Just scanning through the MM3 and saw the Dustwight a CR 7? My first impression was that a 16D12 Undead with petrification and the other cool ideas this monster comes with would more than CR 7? Is the HD on this creature a misprint? The advancement of the creature starts at 9HD.. Across the page is the Drowned. A 20D12 undead with wonderful capabilities but at CR 8... I'm a bit confused here.. My players are at 9th level and I'm not sure that an encounter with a dust wight would be "Below" them. In fact, with the petrification and other abilities it could become a TPK... Soonerpat
DungeonMaster 09-30-04, 01:21 PM	Yeah I saw the MM3 the other day in the store and I looked at that particular page in fact. It's much like the MM2. The CR of certain critters are out of whack. In the end you need to use your good judgment. I'de peg it at CR 10. This time I get here first... I bet he will be around in short order to say no no no all is well in 3.5 land.
d_nychus 09-30-04, 04:04 PM	HI, Just scanning through the MM3 and saw the Dustwight a CR 7? My first impression was that a 16D12 Undead with petrification and the other cool ideas this monster comes with would more than CR 7? Is the HD on this creature a misprint? The advancement of the creature starts at 9HD.. Some of the undead seem a little wonky, because they were trying to fix them with the unholy toughness ability. I think they tried doing that with the dust wight, and had it at only 8 HD with a large Charisma and unholy toughness, but found the save DC for the petrification was too high. So they upped the HD, dropped the Charisma and the unholy toughness, and got this, but forgot to change the advancement. That would be my guess anyways. And the CR does not look too off to me. Compare it to the gorgon. The Gorgon has weaker melee attacks, no DR, and few hp, but a much stronger and bigger breath weapon attack that forces immediate petrification and trample. Add in the dust wight's elemental turning vulnerability, and I would say that a CR 7 is not too far off. Maybe CR 8 at the most, but that seems pushing it in my mind. Across the page is the Drowned. A 20D12 undead with wonderful capabilities but at CR 8... I'm a bit confused here.. My players are at 9th level and I'm not sure that an encounter with a dust wight would be "Below" them. In fact, with the petrification and other abilities it could become a TPK... Soonerpat Well, the 20 HD is a little over the top for an undead WITH unholy toughness. Unholy toughness is supposed to fix those problems with undead requiring many more HD than most normal creatures in order to be worth their CR at higher levels. On the other hand, compare a stone giant to the drowned. The giant only has about 6 less HD, and only 31 hp more, and dishes out much more damage per round. If it was not for the drowned's fast healing and drowning aura, I would put the two as almost comparable. Maybe a CR 9 or 10 as written, but not more than that. I think dropping the HD of the drowned, maybe 5 or 10 at the most, and giving it a better Charisma score would help this creatures be more balanced. However, the real killer with this thing is the Drowning Aura, which uses 3e's most broken mechanic, drowning/suffocation. But that is a problem with the core game, and not really so much this specific creature. Overall, I have not seen too many monsters totally out of whack with their CR, especially compared with the MM 3.0 or MM2. The drowned is one that I do agree needs a fix, but the dust wight seems fine to me.
Hammerhead 09-30-04, 08:42 PM	The ragewalker seems pretty under CRd to me. 22HD, casts some spell like abilities at will as level 20, has a really deadly special ability (the rage aura thing), and is CR 14?
Slagger the Chuul 10-01-04, 12:10 PM	The thing with both the Drowned and the Dust Wight is that they're only useful at close range. Sure, the drowned has its drowning aura, but to take a breath, all you need to do is move outside the radius of the aura. Even if you're standing right next to the drowned, all but the slowest characters will be able to get some air with a double move. Unless you're trapped in a room with the drowned, its major attack is comparatively unimpressive, even assuming you can't cast water breathing or have another solution (possibly including a tower shield deployed as total cover). The dust wight's petrifying aura is extremely short range, can be counteracted by one of two spells (which you can even cast yourself if you're affected) and if you make your save, you're completely immune for 24 hours, by which time the dust wight will probably be long gone (one way or another). The crumbling touch is more annoying, but it presents a good opportunity for something other than "have the fighter bash it" as a solution. The ragewalker's Induce Blood Frenzy ability looks more interesting, but the creature seems to spend a lot of time moving around in order to use it. Its definitely impressive, but there's ways to fight it, you just need to be more inventive. Getting airborne would be a start. There's some interesting new challenges here, but I think the CRs are about right.
DungeonMaster 10-05-04, 02:11 PM	And the CR does not look too off to me. Compare it to the gorgon. The Gorgon has weaker melee attacks, no DR, and few hp, but a much stronger and bigger breath weapon attack that forces immediate petrification and trample. Add in the dust wight's elemental turning vulnerability, and I would say that a CR 7 is not too far off. Maybe CR 8 at the most, but that seems pushing it in my mind. :rolleyes: Yeah so you're comparing a magical beast vs. an undead and all the immunities associated with that type. You've got 1 attack at +12 versus 2 at +15, a whole pile of feats vs. a handful, much better skills, more hp, DR , a similar petrification aura and a rust-monster effect on the attack rolls. And it's CR 7 vs. CR 8. YEAH... CR 7 is "not too far off"... :bored: Overall, I have not seen too many monsters totally out of whack with their CR, especially compared with the MM 3.0 or MM2. Well we have a good idea of what you consider "balanced". :rolleyes:
Firestarter 10-05-04, 09:18 PM	I put up a thread about the storm elemental under the name overpowered elemental because the elder storm elemental has an ability comparable to meteor swarm at a Challenge rating of 12. There is no way that can be correct.
Lord_Naerik 10-06-04, 03:58 AM	Dont go away mad Dungeon Master, just go away.
Mr.Waesel 10-06-04, 05:30 AM	I really, really like the new CR's. It's like the designers finally realised that there are characters who take something else than just more fighter levels.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-06-04, 07:47 AM	I don't see too much problems with the CRs. They just look intimidating. But really, they aren't. all 16 undead HD gives you is a lotta HP. That's about it, you get crap skills, crap BaB, and saves only slightly better than the worst in the game (Constructs have the worst saves). All and all, I'm not that impressed. Well, I slightly am, because I'm tired of having monsters that are far too easy for the CR not challenging my players. (And their characters are not min maxed in the least, I might add.) Although I might receive snarky comments from people about my concept of balance, I think the MM3 CRs are spot on.
Seyluun 10-06-04, 08:55 AM	My current party is level 12/13, and i know for a fact that we don t stand a chance against the CR 12 Storm Elemental. And our usual encounter is usually CR=level of the party+3. While a bit less impressive, the ragewalker well worth is CR 14, and is TPK material if he can use it s blood frenzy ability. Edit: I just came across the Shrieking Terror, a CR 13 creature with the ability to paralyze anyone hearing it in a 60 ft range (dc 34!! fortitude save), and have the pounce ability with 10 attacks (+20; dmg 2d6+5+poison), among other nasty abilities. Just compare with your regular CR 12 Hydra.
Kanthalas 10-06-04, 09:29 AM	alright for a CR 5 the Epheremal Swarm (from here on refered to ES) has way too many thing going for it. First of it has 90 hp... 90 hp a lvl 5 fighter with 14 con has 40 hp... and this thing is an undead something which is known for notorious low hp. the ES is also Incorporeal meaning most PCs will have problems hitting it with that 50% miss chance with magical weapons. It also is a swarm so slashing and piercing does half damage to it. Now as the battle progresses the fighters are having a more and more difficult time with it as their Str decreases by 1d6 per turn with no save, once it reaches 0 that person dies. Now assuming the entire party is quick on their feat and their arcane caster is loaded down with uhhh i would say magic missle but (since its a swarm its immune to spells which target a specific amount of creatures) so fireballs and expeditious retreats this party will quickly expend more than 30% of their resources fighting this creature. Oh and at level 5 with 12 HD there is little chance the party's cleric has a chance of turning this. Do the designers even look over thier creations after they are finished? i looked at it for 15 minutes and figured all this out what are the they thinking? Jeez its Ibramblin issue all over again
DungeonMaster 10-06-04, 10:54 AM	Dont go away mad Dungeon Master, just go away. As I said earlier - many of the monsters in the book look fine, some of them are out-of-whack much like the MM2. I'm not outright trashing the book - I'm saying that a DM should use it with caution. I am outright trashing D_nychus' analysis because I think it's severly flawed. I'm not saying a 7th level party will not be able to take a dust wight out. They might lose a lot of their gear trying and some might die. The CR is wrong. That's it, that's all.
Firestarter 10-06-04, 11:27 AM	I tend to agree that most of the challenge ratings in MM3 are too low but there are also several that are too high. Like the prismatic golem being a challenge rating 18. On the left of that is a creature that can do just as much damage per hit, has a better chance of hitting, and has an engulf ability. Is the prismatic golem so highly rated because of it's prismatic body ability and it's high AC? The AC could have been lowered or the prismatic body should read any creature that touches or hits the golem with a melee weapon are subject to a prismatic touch attack. There are many reasons that the CRing of the prismatic golem should be dropped at least a little or the abilities should be augmented.
fish_heads 10-06-04, 02:03 PM	I thought the cadaver collector, while probably one of the coolest monsters, was way overpowered for CR12. can't use spells or you get hit right back with 'em, and if you get too close, you get impaled, and have to make an insanely hight STR check to get off, all the while taking damage. man oh man...
Lord_Naerik 10-06-04, 02:26 PM	1. The Cadavar Collector, as written, should only be encountered in the open (battlefields, graveyards etc) 2. The Cadavar Collector has no way to Fly 3. The Cadaver Collector has no ranged attack 4. at level 12 (or at level 6 for that matter) it is easy to the point of absurdity to enable an entire party to fly for at least one encounter 5. PC parties have been known, on occassion, to employ effective archers Im sure you can all see where this is going. Basically, from level 6 on, a marginally savvy party can, at virtually ZERO risk, kill Cadavar Collectors with utter impunity. For an "Overpowered Monster" it would seem that Cadavar Collectors are a free and easy way for parties to advance from L6 to L19 (the point at which standard Cadaver Collectors stop granting XP). Of course, once you start advancing the Hit Dice (and therefore, the challenge rating) of Cadaver Collectors, it becomes easy, to the point of absurdity, for parties to advance well into epic levels, again with virtually ZERO risk. Naturally, this post will garner responses to the effect of "That is teh Frelledz0r, not everybody is teh 00ber l337 archer" but, I assure you, any adventurer who has advanced from L1 to L6 without developing some marginally effective means of ranged attack is simply an out and out fool. In short, bring on this Overpowered monster. Free XP=Yum.
Seyluun 10-06-04, 04:27 PM	You do know that PCs win xp through overcoming challenge, not by killing all the moving objects in sight, right? You ll never gain xp for hunting random cadaver collectors/hydra/great wyrm prismatic dragon. But yeah, i agree cadaver collector seriously lack a good ranged attack, or at least a way to resist ranged attack, like the ability of the ragewalker.
Lord_Naerik 10-06-04, 04:32 PM	That may be true in your campaign, as it is in mine. However, you must be aware that the majority of DMs do NOT understand that simple fact. A quick sampling of this board using the search function will tell you that the vast majority of DMs and Players on these boards believe (erroneously) that XP is gained solely from killing monsters. A DM inexperienced enough to believe a Cadaver Collector to be overpowered is also a DM most likely to believe that XP is gained directly from killing one. Thus, for the community at large, my statements still stand.
redraven 10-06-04, 05:38 PM	Sure, the drowned has its drowning aura, but to take a breath, all you need to do is move outside the radius of the aura. Even if you're standing right next to the drowned, all but the slowest characters will be able to get some air with a double move. Read the ability again - when you are within 30 feet of a Drowned, you essentially have about a 40% chance of dying every single round (assuming Con 14). Even a raging barbarian (Con 22) has a 20% chance of dying every round he stays near this thing. I find that just a bit ridiculous for CR 8. A DM inexperienced enough to believe a Cadaver Collector to be overpowered is also a DM most likely to believe that XP is gained directly from killing one. I would appreciate if you curbed the unnecessary use of ad hominem/Poisoning the Well. If your argument is truly sound then it will stand on its own - no need to resort to blanket generalizations. 1. The Cadavar Collector, as written, should only be encountered in the open (battlefields, graveyards etc) Incorrect. If you'll note the Environment: Any entry, they can be found anywhere. Additionally, the descriptive text clearly states that they usually find out-of-the-way locations when there are no major battles nearby, not in the middle of an open field. If there is a major battle nearby, it is entirely likely the general/necromancer in charge of the Collector would have some sort of vested interest in keeping it functioning. 2. The Cadavar Collector has no way to Fly 3. The Cadaver Collector has no ranged attack 4. at level 12 (or at level 6 for that matter) it is easy to the point of absurdity to enable an entire party to fly for at least one encounter Pretty irrelevant; see below. 5. PC parties have been known, on occassion, to employ effective archers PC parties are equally well known for, on occasion, charging into melee at the beginning of battle. Now, your argument seems to revolve around having four, flying archers capable of pelting the Collector with (presumably) adamantine arrows past AC 29. If you'll note, the average four-member party (as outlined in the PHB) does not even have an archer. Even the PC parties that do have archers, usually have only one. Which may or may not have the ability to fly, may or may not have a cache of adamantine arrows, and may or may not have the ability to breach AC 29 (assuming the Collector simply does not go total defense). If your argument is that a Collector is "weak" because it can be killed by a flying party that only uses ranged attacks against a target in an open field, I would hope you understand how completely flawed it is. A Devastation Beetle (CR 50) could similarly be killed "with impunity" in an open field assuming you had epic arrows and could beat AC 62. The fact is, you cannot make those assumptions when attempting to judge the power level of creature. You have to assume that at least two PCs will be getting into melee with it, assume that the wizard will try to cast at least one spell at it, and so on - a less than ideal scenario, in other words. Against a party who has no other information to go on and who happen to nose around its abode, a Collector represents a tremendous challenge which can quickly get out of hand if anyone fails their Reflex save (the paralysis gas effect apparently is permanent) or gets Impaled (a DC 28 STR is impossible except for barbarians/frenzied berserkers at 9-12th levels). -Red Raven
Lord_Naerik 10-06-04, 05:49 PM	My example does not, in any way require 4 dedicated Archers. It requires 4 characters with enough foresight to have backup ranged weapons (Bows or Crossbows). A dedicated Archer (Parties have, on occasion etc) simply makes this job quicker and easier. AC 29 is pretty easy to hit for a buffed L12 Party (please dont tell me you employ sneaky Ninja Golems) and certainly not impossible at L6. Adamantine Arrows/Bolts are likewise, extraordinally cheap and any group who has even the vaguest inkling they may fight constructs would be well served to have at least a moderate supply on hand. Every Barbarian I have EVER seen played (and that is a lot) has carried a ranged weapon as a backup. A character that relies on a single trick to win every battle really deserves whatever horrible fate inevitably befalls them. P.S. Making a general statement which specifically includes likelyhood of exception and is doubly conditional hardly qualifies as a blanket statement at all.
redraven 10-06-04, 09:18 PM	While I agree that ranged backup weapons are a must, it is my experience that players do not spend nearly as much money upgrading them compared to their primary weapon. A 12th-level character is likely to have a +4 weapon, +4 armor, and miscellaneous gear (Cloaks of Resistance +X, ect). Secondary weapons are unlikely to be above +2, at best. A barbarian with Dex 16 is only going to have a +18 to hit, which is about a 45% chance on the first hit. If the DM plays the Collector intelligently at all, it will be using the Total Defense action as it moves (either towards cover or towards a target it can attack) to gain +4 AC until it can charge the last 80 feet. This lowers the barbarian's attack down to a 25% chance on the first arrow. This is all assuming the barbarian did not spurge on a +5 weapon, put his extra points into Str instead of Dex, and a lot of other such decisions PC are more likely to make. AC 29 is pretty easy to hit for a buffed L12 Party (please dont tell me you employ sneaky Ninja Golems) I am assuming you mean that the PCs have spotted the Collector while remaining undetected, spent the next few minutes buffing themselves (Fly, ect) and then engaging the Collector as it sits still this whole time. I do not employ sneaky Ninja golems, I employ common sense. The Collector is not going to be wandering the featureless battlefield at noon - it is going to be a dusk, as the smoke is clearing from the day's fighting, among the debris. The Collector has a +15 Spot/Listen check as well, which is certainly comparable to a PC who maxed out their ranks in the skill. Also note that the maximum Spot distance in Plains can be as low as 240 feet, or less if the Collector is out of Line of Sight. P.S. Making a general statement which specifically includes likelyhood of exception and is doubly conditional hardly qualifies as a blanket statement at all. A DM inexperienced enough to believe a Cadaver Collector to be overpowered [...] If you cannot see how the above quote is a blanket statement, I am forced question whether you know the meaning of the term. -Red Raven
Count Arioch the 28th 10-06-04, 09:39 PM	(please dont tell me you employ sneaky Ninja Golems). Well, it's entirely possible that a wizard villain could telelport the cadaver collector to the PC's living room. A tactic I've used before with other things. (Note that in my world, it takes 10 rounds to materialize from a teleport, and it makes a fair bit of noise, which nerfs the old scry and die tactic, but still allows it to be fairly effective.)
Lord_Naerik 10-06-04, 09:47 PM	The above is not a blanket statement as it is highly conditional. I did not say that every DM assumes the Cadaver Collector is overpowered or anything of the sort. It was sort of an "if/then" scenario. I apologize Raven, if English is not your first language but, perhaps you should read sentences more carefully before making unfounded accusations. In any case, it doesnt matter one bit if the chance to hit is 45% 25% or 5%. The fact remains that a flying Archer (Archer meaning ANYONE with a ranged weapon and a good supply of ammo) is at Zero risk whatsoever from the Cadaver Collector and can kill it at his leasure, the only thing that matters is how long it takes and how many arrows. Flying is beyond easy to achieve at L6+ and so is a Bow and a quiver of adamantine arrows. The ONLY ways a Cadaver Collector could possibly be overpowered is if it had Regeneration/Fast healing sufficient to compensate for any damage it is likely to suffer, it had an effective ranged attack, or if it had some means of forcing characters into melee range with it. Im not saying the CC is UNDERpowered, just that it is too easy to beat for it's CR to possibly considered OVERpowered. It is probably just about right. P.S. Please stick to the issue at hand and stop attempting to discredit others posts with fallacious and politically correct statements about the validity of format.
Lord_Naerik 10-06-04, 10:22 PM	Arioch That is a highly inventive use of the CC. My argument hinges on the Cadaver Collector encountered alone in it's described environment (a semi-deserted battlefield). Clearly there are a number of creature synergies and spell combos that can make an encounter with a CC almost certain death for a Party. Most of these synergies and Spell combos work just as well with other, similar creatures and rely on having a "killer DM." I admit, a Cadaver Collector encountered in a 30' Radius pit with an unbreakable grate placed over the top after the entire group somehow falls in could be extremely difficult. Barring extraordinary circumstances, i assure you the CC is quite weak and easilly countered.
Dackad 10-06-04, 11:01 PM	Read the ability again - when you are within 30 feet of a Drowned, you essentially have about a 40% chance of dying every single round (assuming Con 14). Even a raging barbarian (Con 22) has a 20% chance of dying every round he stays near this thing. I find that just a bit ridiculous for CR 8. Note that it takes three rounds for anyone who fails the Con check to die. During this time, allies can try and save the fallen comrade. So, it's not as bad as you make it seem, but I will concur that the drowned really doesn't seem much like a CR8 to me...
was_fired 10-07-04, 01:42 AM	Heh I wish I could say I have the book, but at least I can comment on the validity of only using archery against a foe. Let me make a few guesses about the cadavar collector odds are as a CR 12 it has at least 16HD and since I heard ninja golumn I will assume it is a contruct with a DR of at least 5 / adamantium. Now lets say they started fighting this thing at night giving partial concealment so around a 10% miss chance. Now with an AC 29 or 33 with total defense we have a nice hard to hit bugger. A fighter built for archery with WF/WS with his +4 Bow and a dex of 18 base (22 with magic) has a +21 to hit. So he is getting a 60% / 35% / 10%. On average if he has 14 strength and a mighty enough longbow his attacks are dealing 12.5 if they bypass DR. So your talking about 13.125 damage per turn on average without the miss chance 11.8125 with it. Now if he is a medium contruct with 16HD it means he has 108 HP (around the same if equal HD undead without crazy HP boosting feats). So it will take 8.2 rounds to best him and 25 arrows over an entire quiver of adamantium arrows. If you don't have that many arrows capable of bypassing a DR of 5/x then your talking about 7.875 damage per round. So it would take 41 arrows to beat him, more than two quivers. In the first case you spent 1,500gp worth of adamantium arrows. Odds are you also used up all the adamantium arrows that your archer is carrying. If the DR is higher than 5/x you need the material to bypass it since otherwise you will only be dealing out any elemental damage which you have tied to your weapon (which will result in a decreased hit chance).
Mr.Waesel 10-07-04, 06:33 AM	The cadaver collector has 32 HD.
was_fired 10-07-04, 08:41 AM	In that case double the time taken assuming they are still medium sized and have no extra sources of HP which I am going to guess they likely do. I am impressed with Naerik's archers who seem to carry more than two quivers of adamantium arrows at a time.
Mr.Waesel 10-07-04, 08:44 AM	The cadaver collector has 32 HD. :uh-huh: Why did I say this?! Sorry, was_fired, I was thinking of the Necronaut. The cadaver collector is somewhere on the site if you want full stats.
Lord_Naerik 10-07-04, 10:40 AM	First off, since we are talking about a non-core rulebook (MM3) it is only right to assume that some other non-core (but still WotC) material will be in play. If we allow this assumption, there have been a few spells printed in WotC rulebooks that grant various special materials status to weapons. Second, we must assume that the Cleric (unless he is an uber-l337 Elven Archer Cleric) will Bless and Prayer his party asap, giving an additional +2 to attack and +1 to damage. BTW, all I am trying to prove here is that a reasonably well prepared party of 12th level should have little difficulty defeating a CC, thus it is NOT overpowered. It is up to YOU (if you refute this premise) to show that the CC can beat such a party under normal circumstances. Unless the party is dumber than the CC (Int 5) I assure you, it cannot.
fish_heads 10-07-04, 11:45 AM	The above is not a blanket statement as it is highly conditional. I did not say that every DM assumes the Cadaver Collector is overpowered or anything of the sort. It was sort of an "if/then" scenario. I apologize Raven, if English is not your first language but, perhaps you should read sentences more carefully before making unfounded accusations. That's hitting below the belt, methinks. even if it wasn't a blanket statement, it was obviously aimed at me, and I resent that. If you want to discuss, then lets discuss in a civil manner. there's no need to be insulting or condescending.
was_fired 10-07-04, 01:02 PM	To be honest I was just trying to show that flying above a foe and lobbing arrow at it isn't a very effective tactic since it uses up so much amunition to take a guy down. Even with those spells it would still take 18 adamantium arrows which is almost as much as I think most anyone would carry with them. Then again by that level you might have a magical quiver which can make arrows (hopefully a non-core one since a core item which makes it would have to be based on major creation and cost at least 45k gp).
Lord_Naerik 10-07-04, 02:45 PM	Raven, choose to be insulted if you like. Noone is out to get you, you arent that important. All I ask is that you look at the stark facts. The CC is ridiculously easy to beat for any party who take the most marginal of precautions. Furthermore, Adamantine Arrows are not even required. -Mighty Composite Longbow +1 (Str 18) 1d8+5 damage -Prayer +1 damage -Damage Range 7-14 -DR of a CC 10/Adamantine Even if you play in a game where your players do not carry any specialty arrows to deal with wierd monsters (/boggle) a party of this level should have ready access to a virtually unlimited (low end bag of holding, Quiver of Ehlonna etc) supply of ordinary arrows. The Fighter is extremely likely to have an 18 strength by this level and have invested in a +1 bow for backup use. The bottom line is, it doesnt matter how long it takes, the CC CANNOT counterattack. It is not overpowered because it CANNOT win. Also, ascribing clever tactics to a Int 5 construct is probably metagaming and should be discouraged.
was_fired 10-07-04, 04:29 PM	Given the DR is 10/X without being able to bypass the DR even with the bow you mentioned talking about an average of 1.125 damage per hit. So with my earlier quoted HP (again I don't have MM3 and no information has been provided since it is not open source so I am guessing) it would take you 71 rounds to defeat him and 213 arrows. I do think by this level most any archer would be packing a full quiver full of arrows made out of each special material, but even with it your talking about using almost an entire quiver per foe. The magical quiver you mentioned only stores 60 arrows, and since a bag of holding is only made out of cloth and arrows are rather sharp placing them into the bag is likely a bad idea. Will a lot of DMs care? No, but if you **** one off and your doing this bad things might happen to all of your loot, and that is a risk that most played I have been with are not willing to take.
fish_heads 10-07-04, 05:09 PM	Raven, choose to be insulted if you like. Noone is out to get you, you arent that important. All I ask is that you look at the stark facts. The CC is ridiculously easy to beat for any party who take the most marginal of precautions. Furthermore, Adamantine Arrows are not even required. -Mighty Composite Longbow +1 (Str 18) 1d8+5 damage -Prayer +1 damage -Damage Range 7-14 -DR of a CC 10/Adamantine Even if you play in a game where your players do not carry any specialty arrows to deal with wierd monsters (/boggle) a party of this level should have ready access to a virtually unlimited (low end bag of holding, Quiver of Ehlonna etc) supply of ordinary arrows. The Fighter is extremely likely to have an 18 strength by this level and have invested in a +1 bow for backup use. The bottom line is, it doesnt matter how long it takes, the CC CANNOT counterattack. It is not overpowered because it CANNOT win. Also, ascribing clever tactics to a Int 5 construct is probably metagaming and should be discouraged. Firstly, as I said, maybe you should stay away from the personal attacks. We aren't in middle school, so let's not act like it. Also, the point that I'm seeing made is this: Your theory relies heavily on the idea that the whole party can fly, and that they have a dedicated (or at least effective) ranged attacker. -If you don't have adamantine weapons, the DR will stop you pretty quickly if you're just using arrows. From what you said, without adamantine, you'll be doing AT MOST 4 damage per attack. -Not all parties have a dedicated ranged attacker, or one that can at least hit and cause substantial damage -Not all 6th level wizards are going to be able to cast fly on the entire party, and if they can, that'll be pretty much all of their 3rd level spells. If you can't or don't fly, then it will attack you. and you will get grappled. and impaled. It can essentially get a charge attack on anything within 80 feet. So yeah, it's easy to beat, if you can kill it without getting within 80 feet of it. Without at least one uber-archer, that'll take a substantial amount of time.
Lord_Naerik 10-07-04, 06:46 PM	By choosing not to read the actual content of my posts, you have inferred personal attacks which are not there. That is unfortunate. I take care to use proper grammar and spelling inasmuch as I can in order to avoid misunderstandings... In my last post I indicated that Adamantine Arrows were not REQUIRED, I never said they werent handy. Show me a 12th level party that cant get its entire membership into the air for a single encounter and I'll show you a bunch of zombies waiting to be animated. I respectfully ask you to stop attempting (unsuccessfully) to prove that the party would have trouble killing the CC and instead show how the CC, encountered alone, can possibly kill anyone in a marginally prepared group. The monster can't be overpowered if it cannot hurt anyone...right? edit:typo
redraven 10-07-04, 06:58 PM	Obviously I need to start providing links to logical fallacies, since you insist on employing them. I did not say that every DM assumes the Cadaver Collector is overpowered or anything of the sort. Nor did I claim you did. This would be an example of a Straw Man (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html). What you did say, intentionally or no, is that any DM who believes the Collector to be overpowered is inexperienced, and furthermore, also likely to believe XP is derived from killing things. If that summary was not what you intended to say with the following quote: A DM inexperienced enough to believe a Cadaver Collector to be overpowered is also a DM most likely to believe that XP is gained directly from killing one. ...then the problem lies with your writing ability, not my understanding of the English language. I apologize Raven, if English is not your first language but, perhaps you should read sentences more carefully before making unfounded accusations. This is known as Ad Hominem (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html). See also: Poisoning the Well (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html) and Personal Attack (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/personal-attack.html). Perhaps you should read your own sentences more carefully before posting fallacious material that, I might point out, breaks the Code of Conduct of these boards. P.S. Please stick to the issue at hand and stop attempting to discredit others posts with fallacious and politically correct statements about the validity of format. I believe the word you are looking for here is "logical" rather than "fallacious/politically correct." Regardless, since you have presented your position as fact you have opened it to be scrutinized as such. If you did not desire your position dissected, you should have labeled it as mere opinion. Instead, you presented a needlessly inflammatory argument that simultaneously insulted anyone who might disagree with you. BTW, all I am trying to prove here is that a reasonably well prepared party of 12th level should have little difficulty defeating a CC, thus it is NOT overpowered. It is up to YOU (if you refute this premise) to show that the CC can beat such a party under normal circumstances. Unless the party is dumber than the CC (Int 5) I assure you, it cannot. The main problem of your argument revolves around the concept of "reasonably well prepared party of 12th level." What exactly constitutes a reasonably well prepared party? A Wizard that has enough memorized/scrolled Fly spells for every member of the party and the time to cast them all? An archer, or at least a competent bow user with a hefty supply of adamantine arrows capable of reliably beating an AC between 29-33 (assuming no cover or concealment)? These assumptions are fine if you wish to require them, but bear in mind that these same assumptions allow you to take down a Devastation Beetle (CR 50) "with impunity" as well, implying that both are thusly underpowered. I hope you can see why the assumptions do not hold. My argument, on the other hand, centers on an average party, facing the Collector on average terms. This means them spotting one as they crest a hill, or go to inspect some noise coming from a trench, or even in the laboratory of a necromancer. In an average situation, the Collector is going to be in melee with someone and this is where I note a severe imbalance in power. DC 28 Strength check to un-impale oneself? 4d8+10 damage per hit? AC 29? Not only immune to just about every spell, but targeted spells are reflected back at the caster automatically? Flying archer or no, the Collector is going to kill/impale a least one non-flying party member unless it is taken out within 3 rounds. As an aside, just because the Collector has Int 5 does not mean, by any stretch of the imagination, that it is "dumb." Wolves have an Int of 2 and are capable of sophisticated strategies such as ambushing/flanking, and all creatures with even an Int of 1 know how to protect themselves/flee if they are unable to retaliate against attackers. In other words, the Collector is only as "dumb" as the instructions given to it by its creator. Raven, choose to be insulted if you like. Noone is out to get you, you arent that important. Please note that I am not Fish_heads. Heh I wish I could say I have the book [...] Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040912b&page=1) are the full stats of the Collector. Since it was publicly posted online, I assume it is open content. Note that it takes three rounds for anyone who fails the Con check to die. During this time, allies can try and save the fallen comrade. Right, but those same allies will have to take at least one additional 40% chance of suffocating themselves before saving their comrade (assuming they are within reach and able to move away on the same turn). Meanwhile, the comrade remains at 0 HP and continues to be unconscious when taken out of the aura. -Red Raven
fish_heads 10-07-04, 07:36 PM	By choosing not to read the actual content of my posts, you have inferred personal attacks which are not there. You said, and I quote (inflammatory remarks in italics): "Noone is out to get you, you arent that important" "I apologize... if English is not your first language " "A DM inexperienced enough to believe a Cadaver Collector to be overpowered is also a DM most likely to believe that XP is gained directly from killing one" While maybe none of these is a direct insult, they are certainly attacks on the people discussing the issue, not the issue itself. And as for the adamantine arrow issue, I also never said they were required. But as I said, a maximum of 4 damage on the times you actually manage to hit is not going to get you anywhere. I respectfully ask you to stop attempting (unsuccessfully) to prove that the party would have trouble killing the CC and instead show how the CC, encountered alone, can possibly kill anyone in a marginally prepared group. Your scenarios are all based on the assumption that the party has at least one or two rounds to prepare, which isn’t always the case. Any monster that requires the party to have 3 rounds of preparation beforehand to avoid a massive problem is already a problem. Assuming the combat begins with no prep time the Wizard and the rogue are the most susceptible to those first attacks if it decides to slam attack, mostly because they have the lowest strength and will have a hard time with a grapple, and undoubtedly, the DC 28 strength check to unimpale themselves. But if the Cadaver collector instead gets within 30 feet (entirely likely if the party doesn’t sneak up on it), and then uses its breath weapon, this will likely be a problem for the wizard, the cleric, and probably also the barbarian, who all have low reflex saves Both of these scenarios provide a major problem for the party wizard. If the wizard gets slammed and impaled, or paralyzed, then suddenly the whole party is grounded. Even if the wizard survives or escapes the problem for the time being, he will still have to take his turn casting a buff or spell on only ONE other PC, rather than making the whole party fly all at once. I’m not arguing that the CC is completely broken. The problem lies in the impale ability. It’s impossible for any Level 12 character to get anywhere close to a DC 28 strength check. That means that character is simply out of combat. One less player will make the encounter much more difficult, particularly since that’s stacked on top of its magic invulnerability, its high AC and DR, and its highly damaging attacks.
Lord_Naerik 10-07-04, 08:27 PM	Since we cannot agree on the "normal" circumstances for encountering a Huge, lumbering, low Intelligence construct who collects dead bodies en masse, I will concede that I do not believe the CC to be Underpowered. I would ask that we simply agree to disagree on the venue for the fight and on what constitutes a personal attack.
Slagger the Chuul 10-08-04, 03:54 AM	The problem lies in the impale ability. It’s impossible for any Level 12 character to get anywhere close to a DC 28 strength check. That means that character is simply out of combat. The victim can also be removed from the spikes by a party member with a successful DC 20 Strength check. The Cadaver Collector is quite impressive, but the Impale ability isn't all that scary. Given the CC's +22 bonus on melee attacks, it would probably be better off simply hitting people with both slams instead of making a single grapple check. It's got a nice assortment of abilities, but I think there's also plenty of ways for a 12th-level party to take it out.
fish_heads 10-08-04, 08:46 AM	The victim can also be removed from the spikes by a party member with a successful DC 20 Strength check. The Cadaver Collector is quite impressive, but the Impale ability isn't all that scary. Given the CC's +22 bonus on melee attacks, it would probably be better off simply hitting people with both slams instead of making a single grapple check. It's got a nice assortment of abilities, but I think there's also plenty of ways for a 12th-level party to take it out. Well, a party member walking up behind it and yanking a body off it's spikes will definitely earn you an AoO. And as far as its grappling, It does that as a free action, meaning it has 2 chances to grapple, one per slam attack, not just one. So basically, it will hit a member and start grappling, and then impale them, then when someone comes up to save that person (who's taking 2d8 damage per round if trying to escape already) the CC will likely use it's full attack on them, attempting once again to impale.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-08-04, 08:53 AM	However, it can hold only 2 medium sized things on it's spikes, so your third frined could yank you off!
fish_heads 10-08-04, 01:48 PM	However, it can hold only 2 medium sized things on it's spikes, so your third frined could yank you off! check again. "A cadaver collector's back spikes can hold up to 4 Medium creatures, 16 Small creatures, or 64 Tiny creatures"