CR system is bunk, or the Rhemorhaz is broken. [Archive] - Wizards Community

CR system is bunk, or the Rhemorhaz is broken. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
EvilVegan
05-06-04, 02:51 PM I was going to have a frost worm attack the party's keep, which is on the border with an arcitc land and is supposed to defend against incursions from frosty things and undead. I was gonna have a frost worm be forced south by migrating rhemorhaz (since they often win the battles between the two). Party fights frost worm, after winning the druid/bard lets them know that its not natural and something must be forcing them south. . .

When they find the lair they find a rhemorhaz. The frost worm is CR 12 (so the party gets decent xp for fighting it), but the rhemorhaz is CR 7 (so the party gets less exp).

Rhemorhaz are CR 7, but on a successful hit do something like 34-140 points of damage, then eat you and you take that much damage every round (+23 to the grapple), and they can eat about 4 people. Any weapons that hit them melt (dc 18). Any natural weapons attacking them deal 10d10 damage to the attacker. My fighter will hit it, his sword will melt, and he'll quit the game forever (cause he can be a cry-baby, and its his only weapon and he has like 16,000 gp invested in one weapon). The monk will attack it and die on his first attack round (since he gets multiple attacks and each one deals 10d10 damage back to him!), then it will eat the druid/bard and archer and the only one who'll survive is the pixie sorcerer and his familiar and cohort (who flee). If it swallows anyone they die, because even if they have a piercing/slashing light or tiny weapon they have to do 25 points of damage with it, which probably takes 3 rounds, so they take 112-420 points of damage before they get out!

What is up with that fire damage? It seems like its almost a typo, like it was supposed to do 1d10 damage.

Frost worms are CR 12. They have more hp, and a special attack (which is negated by bardic music), they have a breath weapon they can use once for 15d6. . . (everyone in the party has evasion almost), and when they die they do like 20d6 damage to everything around (nothing to scoff at, but its dead at this point). It takes double damage from fire (sorcerer's speciality), so its going to take about 40d6 damage before they even get close to it, which is enough to kill it. Frost wyrms do an extra 1d8 of cold damage on bites but it doesn't say anything about people touching it.

So the party defeats a relatively easy monster (frost worm) and gets almost twice as much xp as when they fight a much harder monster (rhemorhaz).
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
05-06-04, 03:15 PM The fire damage has been reduced to 8d6. The remorhaz also does not deal fire damage with its bite attack.
EvilVegan
05-06-04, 04:52 PM Thank you, Throat Warbler Mangrove.

But it says anything touching its body takes the heat damage, and its bite is part of its body. Does that mean you can stab it in the mouth and not suffer the damage? I mean, if you take all that damage when you punch it, why wouldn't you take the damage from it biting you (which should both take approximately the same amount of time)?
Shifting Master
05-06-04, 05:49 PM I believe the change was made for two reasons.
1. The remorhaz was broken before 3.5 changed it.
2. Logical reasons. Doesn't the remorhaz generate heat on its skin/scales/exoskeleton (whichever)? I don't think that any of the these would extended into the mouth.
EvilVegan
05-06-04, 06:11 PM well, the picture shows their little back nubs glowing a redish clolor and they extend all the way up to their mouth and all the way down the middle of their back. Looking at the picture and reading the description it doesn't mention anything about which part of their body generates the heat. If their mouth isn't included then their legs shouldn't be either (since they're away from the body and the red heat generators, more-so than the head is)

Either way, if it bites you, it just has to grapple you (as a free action) and swallow you and you take 22-76 per round. You have to hit AC 15 and do 25 points of damage to get out with a light slashing or piercing weapon. With High Strength this would take at least 2 rounds (24 strength rolling max damage with a magical shortsword) so 44-151 damage minimum (barring heat resistance).

Shouldn't this thing be immune to fire? I mean it already does more than a 10th level fireball continuously. If it is not immune to fire, shouldn't it be taking 8d6 or 10d10 (3.5/3.0) damage a round for touching its body?! Mahahaha.

Side note, do fireballs threaten to melt attended objects (or should I start rolling item saving throws?)? It is possible for them to do more damage than these things.

And I'm not trying to argue with you guys, just discussing the rhemorhaz. I just think its broken as is, but I'm gonna use it anyway, cause the party complains too much. :)
Vanigo
05-06-04, 07:27 PM Of course, a good 7th level wizard or sorcerer can take one out single-handedly with the right spell selection.
Count Arioch the 28th
05-07-04, 06:02 AM Yeah, well, the Rhemoraz can't fight you if you have arrows and a head start.
Lina_Inverse
05-07-04, 06:40 AM 1.not enough range weapons.all charecters should have range weapons as backup,most should focus fully on ranged attacks.
2.not enough save or dies.one half the party should inflict a save or die every round.
3.not enough equipment,definite possibility.
4.bad tactics,always a possibility.
5.that creature is bugged,which seems to be at least partially the case.
Count Arioch the 28th
05-07-04, 06:50 AM I think a save or die every round is beyond the reach of an 8th level group, but there should be one or two.
Lina_Inverse
05-07-04, 06:55 AM Originally posted by Count Arioch the 28th
I think a save or die every round is beyond the reach of an 8th level group, but there should be one or two.

hold person,baleful polymorph.but these guys are 15,theres no reason not to be launching that many.
Count Arioch the 28th
05-07-04, 07:00 AM I thought rhemoraz was CR 8? did they change them in 3.5?
Tenzhi
05-07-04, 07:29 AM According to the original poster it's CR7 - who am I to believe? ;)

Now I have to look it up in both books when I get home. :P
Advanced
05-07-04, 07:48 AM "Thank you, Throat Warbler Mangrove."

????? Aaron is that you?
NightScreamer20
05-07-04, 07:55 AM It's CR 7, but ya it's ment to be fought not in melee. It's bite DOES NOT give off it's heat (otherwise it would have stated that in it's attack damage). PCs with melee weaponry get a good Fort save in order to avoid weapon destruction and it still receives damage. It can only attack 1 PC per round, so they should move around it and make it attack a different PC each round. Sooo I see they have a damn good chance against it.
Count Arioch the 28th
05-07-04, 08:31 AM I thought avoinding weapon damage was a reflex save, not a fortitude save?
Krelios
05-07-04, 09:07 AM My fighter will hit it, his sword will melt, and he'll quit the game forever (cause he can be a cry-baby, and its his only weapon and he has like 16,000 gp invested in one weapon).Good riddance.

The monk will attack it and die on his first attack round (since he gets multiple attacks and each one deals 10d10 damage back to him!)If he keeps attacking after the first one deals fire damage back then he deserves it.

then it will eat the druid/bard and archer and the only one who'll survive is the pixie sorcerer and his familiar and cohort (who flee). If they see the first two go like that and the druid/bard and archer don't fall back, they deserve it too. The pixie sorcerer is the only smart one in your group.

Your party may suffer substantial damage (and potential weapon loss, though a DC 18 save should not be that hard to make at their level) but they should adapt in the first round. They have two choices.

1) Hope they can fall back and hit it at range, allowing only a single attack to the Remorhaz every turn (since it will charge and lose its full attack).

2) Run and gain partial experience for "successfully overcoming a challenge."

If you force your party to run, I would give them full xp since it was your fault that you sent the party after something it was not equipped to deal with. It is the responsibility of the DM to challenge the party reasonably. The Remorhaz CR assumes (much as the MM does with Dragons) that the party will be prepared/know about its vulnerabilities and advantages. In 3.5 a Knowledge Arcana check will provide that information.
def_mornahan
05-07-04, 02:56 PM Hey, you gotta have a little sympathy for someone running a game with people they like but who have personality issues with D&D. I ran a campaign off and on for 5 years with some really good friends who happen to have the same sort of issues...you can't just say "you should be happy they quit".

In any case, the remorhaz is pretty buggy. Just looking at its file in the SRD...

It has 7 HD and is Huge. There are a number of monsters like the Otyugh which do not become Huge until some number of HD later. It should probably only be Large, jacking up to Huge at 9 HD like the otyugh.

The fact that the thing doesn't have fire resistance, let alone immunity, is asinine. I'm just calling a spade a spade here.

The fire damage is absurd. A wyrmling red dragon has 7 HD and breathes for 2d10. Kicking a Large, 8 HD fire elemental deals you 2d6 fire damage. Kicking a Huge fire elemental deals 2d8. The 8d6 from the remorhaz' body is way out of line with other heat monsters.

Basically, I would make the thing Large, give it fire immunity, change the heat damage to 2d6, give its bite the heat damage (its outside is hot and its innards are hot, why not its mouth?), require destruction saves only for wooden or other obviously flammable weapons (bear in mind the WEAPON has to make the save; your character's save doesn't matter), ratchet down its CR to 5 or 6, and get rid of the line about it hiding in the snow. I don't buy this "only gets hot when it's enraged" poppycock ;) , it's got to be pretty hot under the collar in general.
def_mornahan
05-07-04, 03:08 PM Originally posted by Lina_Inverse
hold person,baleful polymorph.but these guys are 15,theres no reason not to be launching that many.

I didn't catch where they were level 15, but if they've whacked a frost worm they're probably at least 10-12, right?

Even at level 7 there is my personal fave, phantasmal killah.

Also, about items being destroyed by fireballs:
According to the SRD you have to screw up really badly to get your items burned. Any normal object just laying around is dead meat, though.

Items Surviving after a Saving Throw: Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack deal.
If an item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.

Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks
Order1 Item
1st Shield
2nd Armor
3rd Magic helmet, hat, or headband
4th Item in hand (including weapon, wand, or the like)
5th Magic cloak
6th Stowed or sheathed weapon
7th Magic bracers
8th Magic clothing
9th Magic jewelry (including rings)
10th Anything else
1 In order of most likely to least likely to be affected.
Count Arioch the 28th
05-07-04, 03:11 PM Actually, it does say you have to make a save using the character's stats if the weapon is non magical, and use either the weapon's save or the character's save, whichever is better if the weapon is magical.

I still am not concerned about a creature that gets laid low with a Greater Slumber without too much problem, what with it's meagre +3 will save.

Greater slumber, then coup de gras. HAve a high fort character do the coup de grace, and you will most likely have a dead rhemoraz. (I find it's useful to keep a pick or axe just for that purpose, a str 18 character critting with a pick will do enough damage on a coup de gras to make the rhemoraze fear it, even with it's +10 fort save. Alternately, give the pick to the rogue, and have it add sneak attack damage in addition, but you might not see the pick again, but nonmagical picks are cheap.)
def_mornahan
05-07-04, 03:26 PM The weapon can use the character's save against regular magical attacks (and this is typically, and should by common sense always be, a Reflex save). The text for the remorhaz says specifically that the weapon is allowed a save. I know you can interpret the text otherwise from a rules-lawyering point of view, but given that 1) the character is actually doing his utmost to have his weapon touch the remorhaz rather than trying to protect it and 2) the character's bodily toughness (Fortitude save) really shouldn't have much to do with whether his weapon gets melted, only the weapon's save should be relevant. If the weapon somehow should benefit from the character's save, it should always be a Reflex save (indicating that the character has somehow whisked the weapon out of harm's way) unless you have some weird circumstance where you can consider the weapon to be an extension of the character's body (Fort) or intimately connected to his mind (Will).
Count Arioch the 28th
05-07-04, 03:36 PM Well, whether or not the fortitude save is the correct save (I don't think it should be, as every weapon-wrecking monster grants a reflex save) the rules are extremely spelcific that if an attended object must make a save, it uses it's own saves, or the users, whichever is higher. (In the case of nonmagical items, it would be the wearer, as nonmagical items don't get saves at all.)

It's not rules-lawyering unless there is some sort of argument. There is none, the rules are as clear as day, therefore, no arguing is needed, no rules lawyering can occur without arguing. (Well, Arguing where both sides have a valid interpretation.)
Feathercircle
05-07-04, 11:20 PM Bah... I was in a party that's considerably lower leveled than yours (somewhere between 8 and 10, I believe...), and we had no trouble with taking on a couple at a time... The psion just Mind Blasted or Brain Locked them and we took them out before they had a chance to hurt us...

If you're going for a full frontal assault, then yeah, you're going to get burned... but if you have any flexibility at all in your tactics, then you can and should be tackling them in some other way. All it takes to take out a remoraz is something immobilizing which forces a will save, and a way to deal out damage at a distance. If you can't pull off one or both of those, then your party is probably going to have trouble with more than just heat-radiating bugs. A party at your level should be able to adapt their tactics to the situation.
(Psi)SeveredHead
05-09-04, 02:11 PM First off: 3.0 Psi was busted. (It was usually way too weak but anyway...) How can I tell? You were using Mind Blast, which was broken for having a too-long "duration" (for something that could not be prevented) and not obeying the metacap.

3.0 Brain Lock, on the other hand, was weak. It only affected humanoids :( which means no remorhazes. The 3.5 version affects any creature type as a 4th-level power but requires Concentration because there is no core spell that will prevent it.

In any event I think the remorhaz is busted. +8d6 damage, hotter than a creature native to the Elemental Plane of Fire? Busted! :) I like the suggestions of cutting the damage to +2d6 and so forth.
Count Arioch the 28th
05-09-04, 07:37 PM And I still say that anything that can be knocked out of the battle with a simply 3rd level spell isn't higher than a CR 5 or so.

the rhemoraz has a too high CR.
(Psi)SeveredHead
05-10-04, 12:28 AM Wimpy Will save aside, the remorhaz has a very good chance of surprising the party and eating somebody. If said somebody is the mage, well, the party had better flee.

IMO monsters should have balanced stats (balance within balance). A monster shouldn't have terrible AC but great saving throws (like an advanced outsider), nor should it have massive over-the-top damage and terrible saves.
Krelios
05-10-04, 12:38 PM Hey, you gotta have a little sympathy for someone running a game with people they like but who have personality issues with D&D. I ran a campaign off and on for 5 years with some really good friends who happen to have the same sort of issues...you can't just say "you should be happy they quit".Yes you can. Not all of my friends play D&D with me, because some of them just aren't as into it as others (or they suck).

In any case, the remorhaz is pretty buggy. Just looking at its file in the SRD...

It has 7 HD and is Huge. There are a number of monsters like the Otyugh which do not become Huge until some number of HD later. It should probably only be Large, jacking up to Huge at 9 HD like the otyugh.Otyugh is a plant, Remorhaz is a magical beast. Why would they have anything in common? A 2 HD Ogre is Large, so should a 2nd level human be Large by that reasoning?

The fact that the thing doesn't have fire resistance, let alone immunity, is asinine. I'm just calling a spade a spade here. Yeah, I have to agree with you there. It should self-immolate moments after being born.

The fire damage is absurd. A wyrmling red dragon has 7 HD and breathes for 2d10. Kicking a Large, 8 HD fire elemental deals you 2d6 fire damage. Kicking a Huge fire elemental deals 2d8. The 8d6 from the remorhaz' body is way out of line with other heat monsters. Just because two monsters have the same HD does NOT mean they're equal. HD != CR.

Basically, I would make the thing Large, give it fire immunity, change the heat damage to 2d6, give its bite the heat damage (its outside is hot and its innards are hot, why not its mouth?), require destruction saves only for wooden or other obviously flammable weapons (bear in mind the WEAPON has to make the save; your character's save doesn't matter), ratchet down its CR to 5 or 6, and get rid of the line about it hiding in the snow. I don't buy this "only gets hot when it's enraged" poppycock , it's got to be pretty hot under the collar in general. No need to rework the whole thing, I think the fire damage is a bit high, but as several very workable methods to defeat the creature have been pointed out, this is just one of those monsters (*cough*DragonTurtle*cough*) that doesn't seem to fit its CR because of one high damage attack. Leave it as is, and only use it against a party that can handle it. That's the DMs job after all--making sure that challenges are not just numerically correct, but also appropriate for your particular party.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EvilVegan 05-06-04, 02:51 PM	I was going to have a frost worm attack the party's keep, which is on the border with an arcitc land and is supposed to defend against incursions from frosty things and undead. I was gonna have a frost worm be forced south by migrating rhemorhaz (since they often win the battles between the two). Party fights frost worm, after winning the druid/bard lets them know that its not natural and something must be forcing them south. . . When they find the lair they find a rhemorhaz. The frost worm is CR 12 (so the party gets decent xp for fighting it), but the rhemorhaz is CR 7 (so the party gets less exp). Rhemorhaz are CR 7, but on a successful hit do something like 34-140 points of damage, then eat you and you take that much damage every round (+23 to the grapple), and they can eat about 4 people. Any weapons that hit them melt (dc 18). Any natural weapons attacking them deal 10d10 damage to the attacker. My fighter will hit it, his sword will melt, and he'll quit the game forever (cause he can be a cry-baby, and its his only weapon and he has like 16,000 gp invested in one weapon). The monk will attack it and die on his first attack round (since he gets multiple attacks and each one deals 10d10 damage back to him!), then it will eat the druid/bard and archer and the only one who'll survive is the pixie sorcerer and his familiar and cohort (who flee). If it swallows anyone they die, because even if they have a piercing/slashing light or tiny weapon they have to do 25 points of damage with it, which probably takes 3 rounds, so they take 112-420 points of damage before they get out! What is up with that fire damage? It seems like its almost a typo, like it was supposed to do 1d10 damage. Frost worms are CR 12. They have more hp, and a special attack (which is negated by bardic music), they have a breath weapon they can use once for 15d6. . . (everyone in the party has evasion almost), and when they die they do like 20d6 damage to everything around (nothing to scoff at, but its dead at this point). It takes double damage from fire (sorcerer's speciality), so its going to take about 40d6 damage before they even get close to it, which is enough to kill it. Frost wyrms do an extra 1d8 of cold damage on bites but it doesn't say anything about people touching it. So the party defeats a relatively easy monster (frost worm) and gets almost twice as much xp as when they fight a much harder monster (rhemorhaz).
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 05-06-04, 03:15 PM	The fire damage has been reduced to 8d6. The remorhaz also does not deal fire damage with its bite attack.
EvilVegan 05-06-04, 04:52 PM	Thank you, Throat Warbler Mangrove. But it says anything touching its body takes the heat damage, and its bite is part of its body. Does that mean you can stab it in the mouth and not suffer the damage? I mean, if you take all that damage when you punch it, why wouldn't you take the damage from it biting you (which should both take approximately the same amount of time)?
Shifting Master 05-06-04, 05:49 PM	I believe the change was made for two reasons. 1. The remorhaz was broken before 3.5 changed it. 2. Logical reasons. Doesn't the remorhaz generate heat on its skin/scales/exoskeleton (whichever)? I don't think that any of the these would extended into the mouth.
EvilVegan 05-06-04, 06:11 PM	well, the picture shows their little back nubs glowing a redish clolor and they extend all the way up to their mouth and all the way down the middle of their back. Looking at the picture and reading the description it doesn't mention anything about which part of their body generates the heat. If their mouth isn't included then their legs shouldn't be either (since they're away from the body and the red heat generators, more-so than the head is) Either way, if it bites you, it just has to grapple you (as a free action) and swallow you and you take 22-76 per round. You have to hit AC 15 and do 25 points of damage to get out with a light slashing or piercing weapon. With High Strength this would take at least 2 rounds (24 strength rolling max damage with a magical shortsword) so 44-151 damage minimum (barring heat resistance). Shouldn't this thing be immune to fire? I mean it already does more than a 10th level fireball continuously. If it is not immune to fire, shouldn't it be taking 8d6 or 10d10 (3.5/3.0) damage a round for touching its body?! Mahahaha. Side note, do fireballs threaten to melt attended objects (or should I start rolling item saving throws?)? It is possible for them to do more damage than these things. And I'm not trying to argue with you guys, just discussing the rhemorhaz. I just think its broken as is, but I'm gonna use it anyway, cause the party complains too much. :)
Vanigo 05-06-04, 07:27 PM	Of course, a good 7th level wizard or sorcerer can take one out single-handedly with the right spell selection.
Count Arioch the 28th 05-07-04, 06:02 AM	Yeah, well, the Rhemoraz can't fight you if you have arrows and a head start.
Lina_Inverse 05-07-04, 06:40 AM	1.not enough range weapons.all charecters should have range weapons as backup,most should focus fully on ranged attacks. 2.not enough save or dies.one half the party should inflict a save or die every round. 3.not enough equipment,definite possibility. 4.bad tactics,always a possibility. 5.that creature is bugged,which seems to be at least partially the case.
Count Arioch the 28th 05-07-04, 06:50 AM	I think a save or die every round is beyond the reach of an 8th level group, but there should be one or two.
Lina_Inverse 05-07-04, 06:55 AM	Originally posted by Count Arioch the 28th I think a save or die every round is beyond the reach of an 8th level group, but there should be one or two. hold person,baleful polymorph.but these guys are 15,theres no reason not to be launching that many.
Count Arioch the 28th 05-07-04, 07:00 AM	I thought rhemoraz was CR 8? did they change them in 3.5?
Tenzhi 05-07-04, 07:29 AM	According to the original poster it's CR7 - who am I to believe? ;) Now I have to look it up in both books when I get home. :P
Advanced 05-07-04, 07:48 AM	"Thank you, Throat Warbler Mangrove." ????? Aaron is that you?
NightScreamer20 05-07-04, 07:55 AM	It's CR 7, but ya it's ment to be fought not in melee. It's bite DOES NOT give off it's heat (otherwise it would have stated that in it's attack damage). PCs with melee weaponry get a good Fort save in order to avoid weapon destruction and it still receives damage. It can only attack 1 PC per round, so they should move around it and make it attack a different PC each round. Sooo I see they have a damn good chance against it.
Count Arioch the 28th 05-07-04, 08:31 AM	I thought avoinding weapon damage was a reflex save, not a fortitude save?
Krelios 05-07-04, 09:07 AM	My fighter will hit it, his sword will melt, and he'll quit the game forever (cause he can be a cry-baby, and its his only weapon and he has like 16,000 gp invested in one weapon).Good riddance. The monk will attack it and die on his first attack round (since he gets multiple attacks and each one deals 10d10 damage back to him!)If he keeps attacking after the first one deals fire damage back then he deserves it. then it will eat the druid/bard and archer and the only one who'll survive is the pixie sorcerer and his familiar and cohort (who flee). If they see the first two go like that and the druid/bard and archer don't fall back, they deserve it too. The pixie sorcerer is the only smart one in your group. Your party may suffer substantial damage (and potential weapon loss, though a DC 18 save should not be that hard to make at their level) but they should adapt in the first round. They have two choices. 1) Hope they can fall back and hit it at range, allowing only a single attack to the Remorhaz every turn (since it will charge and lose its full attack). 2) Run and gain partial experience for "successfully overcoming a challenge." If you force your party to run, I would give them full xp since it was your fault that you sent the party after something it was not equipped to deal with. It is the responsibility of the DM to challenge the party reasonably. The Remorhaz CR assumes (much as the MM does with Dragons) that the party will be prepared/know about its vulnerabilities and advantages. In 3.5 a Knowledge Arcana check will provide that information.
def_mornahan 05-07-04, 02:56 PM	Hey, you gotta have a little sympathy for someone running a game with people they like but who have personality issues with D&D. I ran a campaign off and on for 5 years with some really good friends who happen to have the same sort of issues...you can't just say "you should be happy they quit". In any case, the remorhaz is pretty buggy. Just looking at its file in the SRD... It has 7 HD and is Huge. There are a number of monsters like the Otyugh which do not become Huge until some number of HD later. It should probably only be Large, jacking up to Huge at 9 HD like the otyugh. The fact that the thing doesn't have fire resistance, let alone immunity, is asinine. I'm just calling a spade a spade here. The fire damage is absurd. A wyrmling red dragon has 7 HD and breathes for 2d10. Kicking a Large, 8 HD fire elemental deals you 2d6 fire damage. Kicking a Huge fire elemental deals 2d8. The 8d6 from the remorhaz' body is way out of line with other heat monsters. Basically, I would make the thing Large, give it fire immunity, change the heat damage to 2d6, give its bite the heat damage (its outside is hot and its innards are hot, why not its mouth?), require destruction saves only for wooden or other obviously flammable weapons (bear in mind the WEAPON has to make the save; your character's save doesn't matter), ratchet down its CR to 5 or 6, and get rid of the line about it hiding in the snow. I don't buy this "only gets hot when it's enraged" poppycock ;) , it's got to be pretty hot under the collar in general.
def_mornahan 05-07-04, 03:08 PM	Originally posted by Lina_Inverse hold person,baleful polymorph.but these guys are 15,theres no reason not to be launching that many. I didn't catch where they were level 15, but if they've whacked a frost worm they're probably at least 10-12, right? Even at level 7 there is my personal fave, phantasmal killah. Also, about items being destroyed by fireballs: According to the SRD you have to screw up really badly to get your items burned. Any normal object just laying around is dead meat, though. Items Surviving after a Saving Throw: Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack deal. If an item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage. Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks Order1 Item 1st Shield 2nd Armor 3rd Magic helmet, hat, or headband 4th Item in hand (including weapon, wand, or the like) 5th Magic cloak 6th Stowed or sheathed weapon 7th Magic bracers 8th Magic clothing 9th Magic jewelry (including rings) 10th Anything else 1 In order of most likely to least likely to be affected.
Count Arioch the 28th 05-07-04, 03:11 PM	Actually, it does say you have to make a save using the character's stats if the weapon is non magical, and use either the weapon's save or the character's save, whichever is better if the weapon is magical. I still am not concerned about a creature that gets laid low with a Greater Slumber without too much problem, what with it's meagre +3 will save. Greater slumber, then coup de gras. HAve a high fort character do the coup de grace, and you will most likely have a dead rhemoraz. (I find it's useful to keep a pick or axe just for that purpose, a str 18 character critting with a pick will do enough damage on a coup de gras to make the rhemoraze fear it, even with it's +10 fort save. Alternately, give the pick to the rogue, and have it add sneak attack damage in addition, but you might not see the pick again, but nonmagical picks are cheap.)
def_mornahan 05-07-04, 03:26 PM	The weapon can use the character's save against regular magical attacks (and this is typically, and should by common sense always be, a Reflex save). The text for the remorhaz says specifically that the weapon is allowed a save. I know you can interpret the text otherwise from a rules-lawyering point of view, but given that 1) the character is actually doing his utmost to have his weapon touch the remorhaz rather than trying to protect it and 2) the character's bodily toughness (Fortitude save) really shouldn't have much to do with whether his weapon gets melted, only the weapon's save should be relevant. If the weapon somehow should benefit from the character's save, it should always be a Reflex save (indicating that the character has somehow whisked the weapon out of harm's way) unless you have some weird circumstance where you can consider the weapon to be an extension of the character's body (Fort) or intimately connected to his mind (Will).
Count Arioch the 28th 05-07-04, 03:36 PM	Well, whether or not the fortitude save is the correct save (I don't think it should be, as every weapon-wrecking monster grants a reflex save) the rules are extremely spelcific that if an attended object must make a save, it uses it's own saves, or the users, whichever is higher. (In the case of nonmagical items, it would be the wearer, as nonmagical items don't get saves at all.) It's not rules-lawyering unless there is some sort of argument. There is none, the rules are as clear as day, therefore, no arguing is needed, no rules lawyering can occur without arguing. (Well, Arguing where both sides have a valid interpretation.)
Feathercircle 05-07-04, 11:20 PM	Bah... I was in a party that's considerably lower leveled than yours (somewhere between 8 and 10, I believe...), and we had no trouble with taking on a couple at a time... The psion just Mind Blasted or Brain Locked them and we took them out before they had a chance to hurt us... If you're going for a full frontal assault, then yeah, you're going to get burned... but if you have any flexibility at all in your tactics, then you can and should be tackling them in some other way. All it takes to take out a remoraz is something immobilizing which forces a will save, and a way to deal out damage at a distance. If you can't pull off one or both of those, then your party is probably going to have trouble with more than just heat-radiating bugs. A party at your level should be able to adapt their tactics to the situation.
(Psi)SeveredHead 05-09-04, 02:11 PM	First off: 3.0 Psi was busted. (It was usually way too weak but anyway...) How can I tell? You were using Mind Blast, which was broken for having a too-long "duration" (for something that could not be prevented) and not obeying the metacap. 3.0 Brain Lock, on the other hand, was weak. It only affected humanoids :( which means no remorhazes. The 3.5 version affects any creature type as a 4th-level power but requires Concentration because there is no core spell that will prevent it. In any event I think the remorhaz is busted. +8d6 damage, hotter than a creature native to the Elemental Plane of Fire? Busted! :) I like the suggestions of cutting the damage to +2d6 and so forth.
Count Arioch the 28th 05-09-04, 07:37 PM	And I still say that anything that can be knocked out of the battle with a simply 3rd level spell isn't higher than a CR 5 or so. the rhemoraz has a too high CR.
(Psi)SeveredHead 05-10-04, 12:28 AM	Wimpy Will save aside, the remorhaz has a very good chance of surprising the party and eating somebody. If said somebody is the mage, well, the party had better flee. IMO monsters should have balanced stats (balance within balance). A monster shouldn't have terrible AC but great saving throws (like an advanced outsider), nor should it have massive over-the-top damage and terrible saves.
Krelios 05-10-04, 12:38 PM	Hey, you gotta have a little sympathy for someone running a game with people they like but who have personality issues with D&D. I ran a campaign off and on for 5 years with some really good friends who happen to have the same sort of issues...you can't just say "you should be happy they quit".Yes you can. Not all of my friends play D&D with me, because some of them just aren't as into it as others (or they suck). In any case, the remorhaz is pretty buggy. Just looking at its file in the SRD... It has 7 HD and is Huge. There are a number of monsters like the Otyugh which do not become Huge until some number of HD later. It should probably only be Large, jacking up to Huge at 9 HD like the otyugh.Otyugh is a plant, Remorhaz is a magical beast. Why would they have anything in common? A 2 HD Ogre is Large, so should a 2nd level human be Large by that reasoning? The fact that the thing doesn't have fire resistance, let alone immunity, is asinine. I'm just calling a spade a spade here. Yeah, I have to agree with you there. It should self-immolate moments after being born. The fire damage is absurd. A wyrmling red dragon has 7 HD and breathes for 2d10. Kicking a Large, 8 HD fire elemental deals you 2d6 fire damage. Kicking a Huge fire elemental deals 2d8. The 8d6 from the remorhaz' body is way out of line with other heat monsters. Just because two monsters have the same HD does NOT mean they're equal. HD != CR. Basically, I would make the thing Large, give it fire immunity, change the heat damage to 2d6, give its bite the heat damage (its outside is hot and its innards are hot, why not its mouth?), require destruction saves only for wooden or other obviously flammable weapons (bear in mind the WEAPON has to make the save; your character's save doesn't matter), ratchet down its CR to 5 or 6, and get rid of the line about it hiding in the snow. I don't buy this "only gets hot when it's enraged" poppycock , it's got to be pretty hot under the collar in general. No need to rework the whole thing, I think the fire damage is a bit high, but as several very workable methods to defeat the creature have been pointed out, this is just one of those monsters (coughDragonTurtlecough) that doesn't seem to fit its CR because of one high damage attack. Leave it as is, and only use it against a party that can handle it. That's the DMs job after all--making sure that challenges are not just numerically correct, but also appropriate for your particular party.