+CR when unarmed? [Archive] - Wizards Community

+CR when unarmed? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Neely
10-22-07, 05:42 PM Hiya,

How much should I up the CR of an encounter when the players are unarmed or even unequipped?
Seeing that it would be a much more difficult encounter than it's normal I'd want to hand out more experience than it actually would.
Some guidance with this would be great ^^
Talisman
10-22-07, 06:38 PM Depends on the nature of the PCs and the nature of the opposition. Some classes (such as monks, and spellcasters with Eschew Materials) have no problems.

Realize that, unless they're fighting critters with natural attacks, the first foe to fall = the first armed PC.

I'd probably say about +2 CR, depending on exact party makeup and level, and exactly what enemies they'll be fighting. D&D is a very "stuff-based" game, moreso at higher levels, and a higher-level party arguably has a tougher time without their gear, just because higher-level critters are balanced assuming the PCs have a certain amount of magical stuff.
Neely
10-23-07, 08:31 PM Okay thanks ^^

That gives me an idea what to aim for.
Airos
10-27-07, 11:20 AM You wouldn't adjust the CR of the encounter if the PCs are unarmed. You would adjust the EL, (Encounter Level).

Open up your DMG to page #39, under the heading Modifying XP Awards and Encounter Levels. It explains how, when and why you would adjust the XP awards to the players based on how difficult a particular encounter was.

The CR of a creature means an average party of four characters of [X] level will use 20%-25% of its resources to overcome one of those creatures. This doesn't change. If the party only uses 10% of its resources, it's a lower EL. If the party uses 50% of its resources, it's a higher EL.

Hope this is helpful to someone. ;)
Neely
10-28-07, 05:01 AM Ah, I'm not too good with my terminology ^^
It's was indeed EL I was speaking of.

So the EL of the encounter would be +2 if players are unarmed? I have no idea how much more difficult an unarmed-vs-armed encounter would be. Hence my post.
Airos
10-28-07, 06:49 AM Ah, I'm not too good with my terminology ^^
It's was indeed EL I was speaking of.

So the EL of the encounter would be +2 if players are unarmed? I have no idea how much more difficult an unarmed-vs-armed encounter would be. Hence my post.

Well, I personally don't think there's any hard and fast rules about being able to say just how much of an EL adjustment it would be. There are a lot of variables that need to be considered before you, (or anyone else), can judge how difficult an encounter will be when the PCs don't have access to their equipment.

Does anyone have spellcasting?
Does anyone have natural attacks?
Does anyone have levels in Monk?
Does anyone have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat?
Does anyone have the Improvised Weapon class feature?
Does anyone have the Vow of Poverty feat?
Does anyone have the Wildshape class feature?
Does anyone have the Alternate Form ability?
Does anyone have a familiar or animal companion?

Even if the answer to all of these questions is "no", don't forget that clubs and quarterstaves are little more than table legs and tree branches, and have the benefit of being simple weapons that almost anyone can use. A d6 of lethal damage is better than a d3 of non-lethal with provokes an Attack of Opportunity.

I would suggest sending an encounter or two of a CR between one to two lower than the party, (i.e. if the average party level is 10, go with a CR 8-9), and see how well they handle it without their equipment. If they're able to breeze right through as though they were fully armed, then it's not that much of a greater challenge. If they blow through most of their resources, (i.e. potions, scrolls, spells, class features or abilities that can only be used a limited number of days, etc...), then it is a greater challenge.

The EL/CR system, as well as just about everything else in the game, revolves around four encounters per day, each of which uses up 20%-25% of the PCs resources. Figure out what your PCs can do in one day. How many spells can they cast? Can certain class features only be used a limited number of times per day? How many hit points do they have? Do they still have access to potions, scrolls, wands, etc...? If the wizard can cast 20 spells in one day, then he should be casting 4-5 of them per encounter. If he has to cast 10 of them, then that's "twice as difficult" on the table. If he only casts 2 then it's "half as difficult".

If you're only sending a single "monster" against the PCs then CR=EL. If you're sending a mix of "monsters" against the PCs take a look at Table 3-1: Encounter Numbers on page 49 of your DMG to determine what the total EL is. Once you know that, added with knowing how much of the PCs resources were used during the encounter, you'll know how much to adjust the XP awards for that encounter.

And finally, if this all seems overwhelming just eyeball it. Send CR 8 encounters at them, giving them the XP awards of a CR 9 or 10, (or whatever their level is), or give them a flat 50% bonus on XP.

Hope this helps.
Neely
10-29-07, 06:27 PM Thanks for the lengthy, yet helpful information, Airos. ^^
It seems I really have to judge at the time being how much I should award them, depending on how well they did.
StruckingFuggle
10-29-07, 09:45 PM Depends on the nature of the PCs and the nature of the opposition. Some classes (such as monks, and spellcasters with Eschew Materials) have no problems.

The bolded part. Why do people keep saying this?
Talisman
10-29-07, 11:22 PM The bolded part. Why do people keep saying this?

:confused: ...because monks are much less gear-dependant than, say , fighters, barbarians, paladins, rogues, rangers...

I don't understand your question.
StruckingFuggle
10-30-07, 10:00 PM :confused: ...because monks are much less gear-dependant than, say , fighters, barbarians, paladins, rogues, rangers...

I don't understand your question.

Except they're not, not really. This is a weird myth that keeps getting thrown around- but other than a better unarmed damage than anyone else (that's usually nonmagical, however) and a better naked ac than many (by a bit), monks need gear just as much as most people, and then some. They're better than about anyone else naked (except a Sorceror or Psion or Druid, maybe a Cleric), but not by that much, and like anyone else, to be truly effective, they need plenty of gear, too.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Neely 10-22-07, 05:42 PM	Hiya, How much should I up the CR of an encounter when the players are unarmed or even unequipped? Seeing that it would be a much more difficult encounter than it's normal I'd want to hand out more experience than it actually would. Some guidance with this would be great ^^
Talisman 10-22-07, 06:38 PM	Depends on the nature of the PCs and the nature of the opposition. Some classes (such as monks, and spellcasters with Eschew Materials) have no problems. Realize that, unless they're fighting critters with natural attacks, the first foe to fall = the first armed PC. I'd probably say about +2 CR, depending on exact party makeup and level, and exactly what enemies they'll be fighting. D&D is a very "stuff-based" game, moreso at higher levels, and a higher-level party arguably has a tougher time without their gear, just because higher-level critters are balanced assuming the PCs have a certain amount of magical stuff.
Neely 10-23-07, 08:31 PM	Okay thanks ^^ That gives me an idea what to aim for.
Airos 10-27-07, 11:20 AM	You wouldn't adjust the CR of the encounter if the PCs are unarmed. You would adjust the EL, (Encounter Level). Open up your DMG to page #39, under the heading Modifying XP Awards and Encounter Levels. It explains how, when and why you would adjust the XP awards to the players based on how difficult a particular encounter was. The CR of a creature means an average party of four characters of [X] level will use 20%-25% of its resources to overcome one of those creatures. This doesn't change. If the party only uses 10% of its resources, it's a lower EL. If the party uses 50% of its resources, it's a higher EL. Hope this is helpful to someone. ;)
Neely 10-28-07, 05:01 AM	Ah, I'm not too good with my terminology ^^ It's was indeed EL I was speaking of. So the EL of the encounter would be +2 if players are unarmed? I have no idea how much more difficult an unarmed-vs-armed encounter would be. Hence my post.
Airos 10-28-07, 06:49 AM	Ah, I'm not too good with my terminology ^^ It's was indeed EL I was speaking of. So the EL of the encounter would be +2 if players are unarmed? I have no idea how much more difficult an unarmed-vs-armed encounter would be. Hence my post. Well, I personally don't think there's any hard and fast rules about being able to say just how much of an EL adjustment it would be. There are a lot of variables that need to be considered before you, (or anyone else), can judge how difficult an encounter will be when the PCs don't have access to their equipment. Does anyone have spellcasting? Does anyone have natural attacks? Does anyone have levels in Monk? Does anyone have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat? Does anyone have the Improvised Weapon class feature? Does anyone have the Vow of Poverty feat? Does anyone have the Wildshape class feature? Does anyone have the Alternate Form ability? Does anyone have a familiar or animal companion? Even if the answer to all of these questions is "no", don't forget that clubs and quarterstaves are little more than table legs and tree branches, and have the benefit of being simple weapons that almost anyone can use. A d6 of lethal damage is better than a d3 of non-lethal with provokes an Attack of Opportunity. I would suggest sending an encounter or two of a CR between one to two lower than the party, (i.e. if the average party level is 10, go with a CR 8-9), and see how well they handle it without their equipment. If they're able to breeze right through as though they were fully armed, then it's not that much of a greater challenge. If they blow through most of their resources, (i.e. potions, scrolls, spells, class features or abilities that can only be used a limited number of days, etc...), then it is a greater challenge. The EL/CR system, as well as just about everything else in the game, revolves around four encounters per day, each of which uses up 20%-25% of the PCs resources. Figure out what your PCs can do in one day. How many spells can they cast? Can certain class features only be used a limited number of times per day? How many hit points do they have? Do they still have access to potions, scrolls, wands, etc...? If the wizard can cast 20 spells in one day, then he should be casting 4-5 of them per encounter. If he has to cast 10 of them, then that's "twice as difficult" on the table. If he only casts 2 then it's "half as difficult". If you're only sending a single "monster" against the PCs then CR=EL. If you're sending a mix of "monsters" against the PCs take a look at Table 3-1: Encounter Numbers on page 49 of your DMG to determine what the total EL is. Once you know that, added with knowing how much of the PCs resources were used during the encounter, you'll know how much to adjust the XP awards for that encounter. And finally, if this all seems overwhelming just eyeball it. Send CR 8 encounters at them, giving them the XP awards of a CR 9 or 10, (or whatever their level is), or give them a flat 50% bonus on XP. Hope this helps.
Neely 10-29-07, 06:27 PM	Thanks for the lengthy, yet helpful information, Airos. ^^ It seems I really have to judge at the time being how much I should award them, depending on how well they did.
StruckingFuggle 10-29-07, 09:45 PM	Depends on the nature of the PCs and the nature of the opposition. Some classes (such as monks, and spellcasters with Eschew Materials) have no problems. The bolded part. Why do people keep saying this?
Talisman 10-29-07, 11:22 PM	The bolded part. Why do people keep saying this? :confused: ...because monks are much less gear-dependant than, say , fighters, barbarians, paladins, rogues, rangers... I don't understand your question.
StruckingFuggle 10-30-07, 10:00 PM	:confused: ...because monks are much less gear-dependant than, say , fighters, barbarians, paladins, rogues, rangers... I don't understand your question. Except they're not, not really. This is a weird myth that keeps getting thrown around- but other than a better unarmed damage than anyone else (that's usually nonmagical, however) and a better naked ac than many (by a bit), monks need gear just as much as most people, and then some. They're better than about anyone else naked (except a Sorceror or Psion or Druid, maybe a Cleric), but not by that much, and like anyone else, to be truly effective, they need plenty of gear, too.