Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MushroomSpore 05-24-07, 07:07 PM	I'm looking to create a tricked-out CR 20 aboleth, epic Lovecraftian monstrosity of legend, etc. Thank you, LoM! :D But anyway, when mucking about with advancing its racial hit die as well as adding wizard/savant aboleth levels, I noticed that something doesn't add up. On page 295 of the 3.5 MM: A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster's levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability. The given example is a rakshasa gaining a level of sorcerer, thus being able to cast as an 8th level sorcerer, so its CR goes up +1. Aboleths don't have innate spellcaster levels. So why, exactly, does that CR 7 aboleth with ten levels of wizard have a CR of 17 instead of 12 for having a nonassociated class? (It becomes an even more obvious silly thing when you ask yourself if one level of wizard would make a normal aboleth CR 8. Or a fully advanced 24 HD aboleth (cr 12 by MM rules--+4 for 16 Aberration HD, +1 for size change) with one level of wizard is then CR 13? Oh no, a level one magic missile against a level 13 fighter, help!) I know I'm free to do whatever I like, I'm just curious if there's something I missed here. :) On a related note, this aboleth won't have access to its spellbook at first. How much CR are wizard levels worth without magic? The BAB/saves/hit points are still icing on the cake for a Gargantuan beast like this one...with, uh, Improved Rapidstrike, Improved Natural Attack, the improved bite feats, Large and In Charge, Combat Reflexes, and a Dex boosted by level gain points. :eek:
Morwen 05-24-07, 07:14 PM	You are correct. The first 8 Wizard-levels would be considered non-associated (since it has 8 HD, any further Wizard-levels would be associated) and only add +4 to its CR. The last 2 Wizard-levels add +1 each, for a total CR of 13. See also Mind Flayer Sorcerer for a similar example. One with 2 fewer Sorcerer-levels got CR 11 in a recent Dungeon magazine, with the editor saying the MM-CR was obviously wrong when associated/non-associated levels were considered.
MushroomSpore 05-24-07, 07:21 PM	Haha, I didn't even notice the Flayer sorcerer, I've been doing the psionic illithid option and just giving them added levels of psion, which *are* associated. One other thing about the aboleth that I just now remembered--I can't find any specific rules about whether advancing a monster's racial hit dice affects how many nonassociated levels it can have before the CR is +1/level again. For instance, if you have a 10 or 15 or even the fully advanced 24. With the way the rule is written, I would assume that limit goes up as well, since the class levels must contend with the new higher CR that the advanced-HD monster is worth against a party.
Morwen 05-24-07, 07:26 PM	With the way the rule is written, I would assume that limit goes up as well, since the class levels must contend with the new higher CR that the advanced-HD monster is worth against a party. I'd say so, too. However, note that some moderation is required, and advancing too much will, for some monsters, break the system (+1 CR/4 HD is a pretty sweet deal, after all). If you advance the Aboleth to 24 HD and CR 12, the non-associated limit is increased to 24 levels, which amounts to an additional +12 CR. Which would give you an Aboleth Wizard 24 who is somehow only CR 24, equal to what a Human Wizard 24 would be..
MushroomSpore 05-24-07, 07:43 PM	Haha OUCH that's horrifying. Yeah, I definitely don't want to go that far, which is why I'm not letting it get to caster level 17 and 9th level spells. I'd settle for level 7 spells tops (as Control Weather is so perfect), but level 8 has the Draconomicon's Maddening Whispers which I just can't pass up. If it helps, I'm not giving it any direct damage spells, except maybe a couple things out of Stormwrack which involve controlling the seas. (Unless you count Prismatic Wall as more than just a really effective barrier.) 24 HD + wizard 11 + savant aboleth 5 = difficult but doable CR 20? A caster 16 spellbook would look something like the following, though I'm even debating taking Phantasmal Killer out, except that it's thematically appropriate. * 8-Binding, Depthsurge, Dimensional Lock, Discern Location, Ghostform, Maddening Whispers, Mind Blank, Prismatic Wall, Prying Eyes (Greater), Screen, Symbol of Insanity 7-Control Weather, Energy Immunity, Hiss of Sleep, Insanity, Limited Wish, Plane Shift, Spell Turning, Scrying (Greater), Waterspout 6-Analyze Dweomer, Control Water, Flesh to Stone, Illusory Pit, Legend Lore, Mislead, Move Earth, Permanent Image, Probe Thoughts, Stone to Flesh, Transfix 5-Break Enchantment, Contact Other Plane, Draconic Might, Dragonsight, Dream, Flight of the Dragon, Flowsight, Mage’s Private Sanctum, Magic Fang (Superior), Nightmare, Permanency, Servant Horde, Spiritwall, Transmute Mud to Rock, Transmute Rock to Mud, Wall of Stone 4-Bestow Curse, Black Tentacles, Contagion, Detect Scrying, Phantasmal Killer, Rainbow Pattern, Remove Curse, Siren’s Call, Stone Shape, Transformation of the Deeps 3-Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Detect Ship, Dispel Magic, Dragonskin, Gentle Repose, Nondetection, Sleet Storm, Stony Grasp, Tongues, Undulant Innards 2-Blindness/Deafness, Fog Cloud, Invisibility, Knock, Mesmerizing Glare, Sink, Turbidity 1-Alarm, Comprehend Languages, Grease, Identify, Obscuring Mist, Quickswim, Unseen Servant, Ventriloquism 0-Arcane Mark, Dancing Lights, Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Read Magic