Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shell 12-08-03, 08:36 AM	OK Somthign is wrong here, i never really thought about it be fore but i thought yeah Silver Dragon, that would be fun to play you get to polymorph and cloudwalk but nothign serious, nothign your adverage wizard cant achieve, then I go look one up to see the cost of playing one a Young silver dragon, with 1 caster level ... yeah 1 magic missile (whoo hoo) and a few hit points, No SR, and the ability to deal 6d8 worth of breath weapon damage (since u would never let it close enough to to actually hit anything) was CR 7, i thought cool, this wont be too bad, I looked at the Level Ajustment.. +5.. ok fair, then u look at the Hit Dice 15!! so that turns a cr 7 monster into a 20 ECL character ANY 20th Lvl character has been skinning your kind for their barbeques since lvl 10! they would laugh I mean seriously ok u get the treasure of a 20th lvl character.. but HOW IN PEYLORS NAME ARE YOU GOING TO PROTECT IT!? sure eveyone has the same amount of gold as you, but they want more.... your on level ground in a world that enjoys making mincemeat out of the weak! U know the damage a 20th lvl wizard or sorc can deal, and i have seen 20th lvl fighters, monks and theives pull off as much, poor little Draggie is going to be sitting in her hole preying the nasty PC's will leave her to all her sparkly wealth! There is no way the poor thing could take on anything in the epic manual, and even the other pc's in the party are going to be licking their lips... lawful good and all.... There is something wrong here, this isnt ballence its suicide for the poor thing. No Dragon would want to sign on =( and it makes me upset! Something seriously needs to be done and fast before dragons do become but bare whisps in the memories of the PC's Log Books. :sad:
AramTheDM 12-08-03, 09:45 AM	ok, first off, the young silver dragon is indeed adjustment +5, but hd are 13d12, not 15, making the total ecl 18, not 20. it: moves on the ground like a barbarian (40 feet) has d12 for hit dice has one sorcerer caster level that you can basically ignore most of the time at that level (i'll give you that) has a fly speed of 150 feet a turn, better than wizards'spell has a natural +12 to armor class (that's even cool in epic) is immune to acid and cold has racial ability adjustments of ...hold on: +6 STR, +4 CON, +6 INT, +6 WIS and +6 CHA. that's quite nice. has TWO breath weapons, not one immunity to sleep and paralysis a very long lifespan blindsense, darkvision and low-lightvision 6+ int skill points per level, and several nice class skills. a bonus feat (all dragons have one feat, plus additional feats based on hit dice) fighter base attack monk saves so I'd say it's okay in total. In an otherwise ecl 20 party, I'd recommend two fighter levels for the Silver Dragon (though Paladin might be more in character), which grants proficiency with all armor. Dragons in +5 heavy fort full plate, plus a few points of dex thanks to mithral, plus 12 natural armor, can reach nice AC levels. Also consider Dragon 30-----> something , which has rules for equipping your dragon for war. ECL 18 is good. It's fair. IMHO
Shell 12-08-03, 10:36 AM	OK, sure u can buy amour, and it has a fly speed, But it doesnt compare to a wizard, or a Psion for that matter since they can Fly at 180ft a round with improved Fly, and a 40ft move is nothing, with expeditios retreat cranking in your boots, and it cant use both its breath weapons at once, there is no quicken breath weapon feat... Hell it cant even use it every round... where as I know my 20th lvl wizrds can char just about anything in a couple of rounds to small cindars dishing out atleast 2-3 spells a round and my Psions do a good effort tooand they are a very anti-damage class. and 2 character levles still doesnt compare to the 20 everyone else has I guess My major gripe is that, Dragons are really cool, in concept and I enjoy concept characters, But I dont think that something that is CR 7 should convert to ECL 20 it just doesnt make logical sense, no matter how much magical crap you pile on it as soon as u hit it with Morty's Disjunction it falls over in a pile of formless ooze =( and hell everyone else has the same treasure as you, they are all spelled up to the nines too... cept that u simply dont compare to them. I mean, our party of 17th lvl characters regularily runs into youngish dragons and chews them up (evil ones ofcourse) and i know Poor lil silivery wouldnt stand a chance against half the things we fight, even if i blatently min-maxed her untill no more min-maxing could be done And I just think that is really tradjic, that a poor little young dragon should have to fight alongside hardened battle experts just to get some experience in life, never having slewn an Orc or Lame Goblin. I dont care how much you defend the rules, and I agree that they seem to work ok in most cases, except illithids and Hound Archons I might add, but it really leaves poor old dragons just short of the proper challenge =( And I say somethign needs to Be Done when the rules dont work Fix them, isnt that what 3E is about? my 2 coppers worth.
Shell 12-08-03, 10:41 AM	Oh yeah and can u seriously, seriously say that u could make a dragon at lvl 18 that could beat or match ANY character classed Human of the same level ? (bards are not included they are not a real class =P) I dont think its possible, and if u do i take my hat off to you, but magical treasure or no, a drgaon just doesnt match up
AramTheDM 12-08-03, 11:18 AM	The point is not making a dragon that can "beat or match" a human character. The point is that you are gaining a lot. Arguably, you are gaining better class levels than normal when you take Dragon HD. Fighter BAB, Monk saves, Barbarian Hit dice, Ranger skills...(almost) the best of everything. It's very nice. Then the big natural stats before any pumping (don't forget another +3 for your HD) or items, and a truly epic natural armor bonus, I still say it's good enough. And does a monster really need to meet or beat? It's a monster. If you want pure power, get a cheesy multiple PrC build from a board somewhere. But you do not. You want to play a dragon. So play one. Be some paladin's mount if you want to contribute a lot to the party. Or the mount of an Archmage or Mounted fighter. And, even though I'd say it's powerful enough, I'd like to know: have you tested the Dragon in play? have you equipped one and played it? If so, what lvl would you suggest? Or are you just blowing off steam after a five-second look in the book? (No offense meant, of course.)
was_fired 12-08-03, 04:40 PM	Dragon PCs are like a powerful multiclassed combination. Silver tend to be bad as far as dragons are concerned imo but lets use a silver dragon paladin vs a human paladin 20 with stats 16, 15, 12, 11, 10, 8 as an example. Without Magic Ability Scores Dragon: 23 str, 12 dex, 16 con, 14 int, 16 wis, 22 cha Human: 16 str, 12 dex, 12 con, 8 int, 11 wis, 18 cha Hit Points Dragon: 13d12 + 2d10 + 15 * 3 = 140 Human: 20d10 + 20 * 1 = 130 Saves Dragon: 24/20/22 Human: 18/11/10 Now when you add magic it does give the human an edge in combat power. Lets just assume they have a +5 item to strength, con, and charisma along with a cloak of resistance +5 and a +3 inherent to strength, con, and charisma. Ability Scores Dragon: 31 str, 12 dex, 24 con, 14 int, 16 wis, 30 cha Human: 24 str, 12 dex, 20 con, 8 int, 11 wis, 26 cha Hit Points Dragon: 13d12 + 2d10 + 15 * 7 = 200 Human: 20d10 + 20 * 5 = 210 Saves Dragon: 37/29/31 Human: 31/20/19 Now the human paladin does get 2 more feats than the dragon, one more attack a round that the dragon, and a higher possible rank in all its skills. The dragon however recieves more skill points than the human, two breath weapons, natural flight, natural attacks which will likely never be used, blindsense which nearly negates invisibility, and a higher bonus to most skills due to their higher ability scores. Sounds balanced to me. Don't forget a dragon can use any weapon a human can so that is not a deciding factor in battle.
was_fired 12-08-03, 05:05 PM	Oh I forgot the breath weapon details for the silver dragon. The cone of cold is nearly worthless I admit but take a look at the paralyzing gas. It paralyzes any creature (helpless) that is in the 30ft cone unless they can make the DC 23 fort save from the above model which can be increased by 2 with ability focus to DC 25. So you have a save or die effect which is usable once per combat maybe even twice, but the save is too low to make it a factor you say. Lets look shall we... % Chance of CR 20 enemies failing this save: Ancient Blue Dragon: 0% Pit Fiend: 25% Balor: 10% *20th level Barbarian: 25% *20th level Monk: 25% *20th level Rogue: 55% *20th level Wizard: 60% Solar: 30% *20th Level Characters were given a +5 to save vs the 3.5 DMG listings in order to account for magic. Now consider that the dragon book has the fairly overpowered feat which lets a dragon use its breath weapon as a free action in exchange for a longer cooldown period which means they will only get to use it once in a fight. That means that there is a 25% chance you can simply paralyze the strongest of hell's minions as a free action without any daily limit to the number of times you can do this. I fail to see how this is a weakling attack since a 20th level wizard scarcely has a better chance of holding it as a free action (DC 15 + 2 greater spell focus + 11 int = 28). A 30% chance in the case of the pit fiend at the cost of 9th level slot.
AbsentMindedProfessor 12-08-03, 05:42 PM	Keep in mind that unless that Pal 20 can Fly, he's toast. That Dragon can Flyby all day and keep breathing on him every few rounds until the Pal 20 is done. Besides, I'm pretty sure 1's always fail on saves now, so eventually he will roll a 1 on his Fort save vs the Paralyzing gas. And if the Pal can fly, I doubt he can do it better than the dragon. And don't forget, Dragons can use Magic Items too. Amulet of Mighty Fists +X, Cloak of Prot. +X, Bracers of Armor +X, to name just a few. And of course, he can always just wait for the poor human to die.
Vaalingrade Ashland 12-08-03, 06:20 PM	Also keep in mind ECLs are a little jacked so as to make monster PCs weaker than PC races of equal ECL. As a rule of thumb, I knock off half the hit dice (ie they don't get them, nor count them) and drop the LA by one for anything ECL 8+.
was_fired 12-08-03, 07:01 PM	Ashland the only problem with that is that most people WANT dragon HD. It is the source of their natural armor and their sheer power is greater than any classes HD. Consider each true dragon HD gives: +1 natural armor, 6.5 HP on average, 6 + int skill points, and all good saves. Also every 2 HD increase their breath weapons DC by 1, and they eventually provide caster levels. I honestly can't see why anyone wouldn't want a dragon HD. Now dragon and outsider HD are an exception to the general rule that monster HD should be worth less than a 1:1 ECL. Even the monster manual says this in its HD to CR calculator. I agree with you for most monsters this works, I actually give HD such as fey at 1/2 an ECL per with a limit of HD = ECL. As the old saying goes, dragons own.
Alienfreak 12-09-03, 08:48 AM	Saves Dragon: 24/20/22 Human: 18/11/10 those saves are weird ... really ... how do you get those saves with an 13 hd dragon and 2 levels of fighter? the bases should be sth like : 13/10/10 with stats it should be kinda: 17/11/13 The Paladin you made doesnt have any ruling prestige classes ... Without an prestige class almost every standart character suxx. If the Dragon tries to make that flyby **** ... shoot him down with a bow and get a ring of cold resistance. Failing the save against the paralyse thingy should be kinda impossible. If you cast spells like earthbound on the dragon, hes finally ****ed.
Count Arioch the 28th 12-09-03, 09:37 AM	Originally posted by AbsentMindedProfessor Keep in mind that unless that Pal 20 can Fly, he's toast. That Dragon can Flyby all day and keep breathing on him every few rounds until the Pal 20 is done. *Cough cough*HELD ACTION TO SMITE THE DRAGON AS IT FLIES BAY*cough*. Sorry, I must be getting a cold.
Will Brandiman 12-09-03, 10:01 AM	Originally posted by Count Arioch the 28th *Cough cough*HELD ACTION TO SMITE THE DRAGON AS IT FLIES BAY*cough*. Only if it is stupid enough to come close enough to you to be hit. And why would it do that when it can fly by, breathe all over the party and swoop away again. Eventually people will fail their saves. And don't forget that Draconomicon introduces lingering breath (I think that's what it's called) so you either have to move out of the area of the breath or take the save again next round.
Grynn 12-09-03, 10:21 AM	Originally posted by Count Arioch the 28th *Cough cough*HELD ACTION TO SMITE THE DRAGON AS IT FLIES BAY*cough*. Sorry, I must be getting a cold. Hey, you might want to get that looked at. BTW, a paladin using smite evil against a creature that is one of the only creatures native to the material plane that is more lawful good than a paladin (also including gold dragons, lammasus, and couatls)? I don't think that would work too well.
Elendur 12-09-03, 12:19 PM	I think this dragon character sounds hugely fun. I'd play it at ECL 18. All those keen senses, immunities, flight, it sounds like a blast! I'd have fun picking out four nasty feats from the Draconomicon. All LA's greater than 2 are very problematic, as they are trying to measure general adventuring utility, not combat prowess. Things like Darkvision 120ft don't really factor into a monsters CR, but must be taken into account for players.
was_fired 12-09-03, 12:25 PM	Your right I must have added the ability scores twice for the dragon. Fort: 6 dragon + 3 paladin + 3 con + 6 cha = 18 Ref: 6 dragon + 1 dex + 6 cha = 13 Will: 6 dragon + 3 wis + 6 cha = 15 Your right the paladin doesn't have any horribly unballanced and overpowered PrCs, but the topic here isn't that dragons are overpowered, but rather they are too weak. Since PrCs should be measured against the base classes for balance purposes as should ECLs I don't see how this is too weak. It just ends up balancing against the core rules ignoring the overpowered content attached to other books as a selling point. Also I never claimed the dragon would have to flyby since it can end up fighting nearly as well head to head. Though trip might work out well since the dragon will have a superior strength score.
Ambrosious 12-09-03, 09:36 PM	<Sigh>. With a feat, that Paladin's mount is more powerful than the dragon PC. Even without Dragon Cohort, Paladin's can have some pretty kick-ass mounts. And, of course, the Paladin isn't going to Smite the silver dragon. They're both PCs, they're working together. What the Paladin is going to do is Smite the BBEG that the silver dragon has been clawing at for the last five rounds with no effect, do to the BBEG's adamantium DR. A think a Paladin 20 would be much more effective than a silver dragon, both in and out of combat. Even a Paladin 20 build that uses only core books. It's pretty easy to get uber damage out of a charge. Paladin spells are pretty good. And the flight ability of the dragon is pretty easy to mimic with magic items. Yeah, yeah, the silver dragon can get items too. It's just that the neato dragon abilities which are adding to his/her CR, while awesome at low levels, are unimpressive at high levels because they can be duplicated by rather inexpensive magic items. And, once they're in play, dragons no longer advance by Hit Die, unless they're being magically aged or something. If you eventually want a high hit die post-epic dragon, then you just take an old dragon and turn it into a PC class...which will have an LA waaay above +5. Now, I'm not saying a dragon won't be fun to play. I'm all about flavor. It's just that they won't be able to do anything that another party member can't do better. For more ranting, see my response to the "Dragons as PCs" threat. :) (And if you want to do a number-by-number comparison, I suggest you fully build both characters at level 20, with feats and magic items and skills and everything.)
DarkThoughts24 12-09-03, 10:30 PM	note a dragon with their repetiore, the equipment of the generic 18th level character, and proper feat and skill selection should eb able to do some serious damage. and lets not forget the leadership feat. with the perks of beign a dragon and high chr you can have a bunch of goons at your disposal jsut for intimidation sake.
Shell 12-09-03, 11:09 PM	Thanks Ambrosious, thats exactley my point, U might as well play a Paladin up to 20th lvl and get a dragon cohort or mount since they are better and u can get a slightly older dragon in most cases... although i had the thought last night while driving home that u could take leadership with your Dragon PC and get a Paladin "Driver" so to speak and as long as you give her all the mounted combat feats and max out her ranks in Ride and handle animal (well ok u only 5 ranks in handle animal for the synergy bonus) its like having intelligent armour that can get you out of the way of most incoming blows. (i've been looking at our parties current mounted specilist Paladin and getting some ideas) But still, CR 7 doesnt translate to CR 18 or whatever it is, and NOBODY wants monster Hit Dice, NOBODY could possibly want them, even if they are d12's you loose too much And often the game is about being able to win combat, if you dont win u die, and then me the poor player has to spend hours trying to come up with something that can last longer, that has less XP, and Less Tresure usually than the party as it stands currently. The aim of the game is to survive, so that u can role play! But i am going to have to sit down and Make A dragon PC, Just to make sure im not just :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored:ing about nothing, Although from what I can see im not. I have a 20th lvl Wizard that could eat just about any dragon PC breakfast, and probably would given half a chance knowing him, although My 17th lvl Psion probably couldnt do it, the Dragon sertainly couldnt hurt him but i'll look at it and see what I can come up with i'll post lil draggie here later =)
SFNosferatu 12-09-03, 11:55 PM	Originally posted by Shell and NOBODY wants monster Hit Dice, NOBODY could possibly want them, even if they are d12's you loose too much I want monster hit dice
Shell 12-10-03, 12:19 AM	I mean each to their own, but a monster HD just isnt a class level and few monsters Ever get caster levels for their HD, dragons do for some, and some fey get them as well but not much Each monster HD you take is a kick in the pants really
was_fired 12-10-03, 07:03 AM	Originally posted by Shell I mean each to their own, but a monster HD just isnt a class level and few monsters Ever get caster levels for their HD, dragons do for some, and some fey get them as well but not much Each monster HD you take is a kick in the pants really I tend to agree but I find dragon HD to be an exception. Consider what a dragon HD vs a paladin HD gives: Pros for Dragon: +1hp, +1 natural armor, 2 more skillpoints, +2 str and con / 3 HD, +2 wis, int and cha / 6 HD. Paladin: Smite 1 day / 5HD, +1 smite damage / HD, lay on hands On about lay on hands in the above example the paladin wins hands down. Dragon = 2 * 10 = 20 Human = 20 * 8 = 160 So I guess you are right even for dragons the LA might be invalid since they have to pay for the ability increases already.
Shell 12-10-03, 07:14 AM	i think i have to agree with the paladin thing, to tell you all the truth i dont exactley play fighters, or paladins with any frequency, I tend to play Wizards, Druids or Psions with the occasional cleric for some spice, and im great at those things, but when u give me a fighter, who has to take alot of damge and stand in one place and fight i cant get my head around the whole "Bash Stuff" with a big mercurial greatsword thing To me a Hit Dice is the loss of a Caster Level, and thus an ultimate sacrifice on the road to power, I think the only time i ever did it was for an Aasimar Wizard/Psion who turned out to be a really great character but me and ECL dont usually get along but still dragon PC's Should be cool and they are not. and that is very tragic.
AramTheDM 12-10-03, 07:42 AM	Rules are not everything, Shell, and "cool" is not an approximation of power level. Actually being able to play a dragon is cool enough, roleplaying its unique perspective and all that, and it doesn't need to be an overpowered (or high-powered) race as well. IMHO
the_heart 12-10-03, 09:34 AM	2 minor things, one: ECL /= CR they are not comparable, CR should not be referred to when evaluating ECL. CR= one encounter/limited time/ limited impact. ECL = always 'on-scene'/ greater impact. two: direct comparisons do not work, never have - never will. instead we need to look at what role said dragon will fill. a dragon character with magic items, over an extended period, will be as useful as any other member of the party. he has respectable skills, but is not a rogue, has respectable attack and damage, but is not a fighter, has outstanding capacity for an obscene AC, has capacity for support spell casting/low level healing, respectable saves and has excellent non magical maneuvarability. the dragon does fit in a high level party, but is probably better suited to a support role that any one front line role. add in some of the new feats from Draco. (including quicken breath) and i think he fits in quite nicely at that ECL.
Count Arioch the 28th 12-10-03, 11:16 AM	Originally posted by Grynn Hey, you might want to get that looked at. BTW, a paladin using smite evil against a creature that is one of the only creatures native to the material plane that is more lawful good than a paladin (also including gold dragons, lammasus, and couatls)? I don't think that would work too well. Obviously, this is some sort of corrupted silver dragon or something, otherwise, why is he using deadly force on a paladin at all? You see, you gotta think outside the box. :smirk: The thing is, dragons have lesser CRs than what is justified. That CR 7 silver is more likely a CR 9 or 10. (It's not as bad as it was in 3.0, but there's still that artificial difficulty put in without warning.) But ECL 18 for that still sucks. I do agree that in this case, there should be an ECL above and beyond the HD, but not 5, that's a bit too much.
Willie the Duck 12-10-03, 09:29 PM	Look shell, you are right. Creatures that have ECLs significantly above their CRs usually aren't very powerful (since a party that could take them out [level=CR] would be slaughtered by something a party of their ECL would fight [CR=ECL]). I think that is deliberate because the designers decided they wanted to dsiscourage their being used as PCs.
was_fired 12-10-03, 09:51 PM	Originally posted by Willie the Duck Look shell, you are right. Creatures that have ECLs significantly above their CRs usually aren't very powerful (since a party that could take them out [level=CR] would be slaughtered by something a party of their ECL would fight [CR=ECL]). I think that is deliberate because the designers decided they wanted to dsiscourage their being used as PCs. Consider however that CR should not equal be equal to ECL in any way shape or form (for monsters) if you want to mantain balance at least. The rules for monsters are crazy in this regard. Most brawlers have twice their CR in HD or more along with huge ability score boosts. Personally I think it would be nice if they bothered balancing the system but they won't. Compair the power of a 7th level NPC paladin to a young silver dragon. The dragon will be more powerful hands down in nearly all regards. Now I do admit they did overcompensate, but I have yet to come up with a system to fix level adjustments.
Shell 12-11-03, 06:55 AM	I fully realise that CR is not ECL, I know that i can read the rules, and like i said ecl works often, but in this case it defy's all sense! the point was a cr 7 monster gets (or is suposed to ) beaten up by a party of 7th lvl characters BUT in this case the cr 7 monster works out to be ecl 18 and i can tell you now that NO 18th lvl character worth their salt is going to be beaten up by a party of 7th lvl ones! Your just nit picking
the_heart 12-11-03, 07:23 AM	i will cede that the LA +5 is high, possibly too high. however the argumentsas to what it's LA should be, should be kept seperate from it's CR. this is not to imply that you do not know they are different, but to state that one should not be used to justify/refute a particular point about it's counterpart. they measure different values and those values that they share are given different weight. as a note, i am not entirely convinced that level=CR for PC classes, and in many cases the CR should be lower. especially mid-high fighters and low level mages.(nor am i convinced that (non-)associated class levels is the answer) now working out what it's actual LA should be is maybe a discussion for another board, and can be expanded for all dragons? as a starting point how about Wiz_O nagatheal(sp) conversions(dont have the link,sorry). or try a blanket +3 reduction(minimum LA +0)
WizO_Negathael 12-11-03, 10:20 AM	Originally posted by the_heart now working out what it's actual LA should be is maybe a discussion for another board, and can be expanded for all dragons? as a starting point how about Wiz_O nagatheal(sp) conversions(dont have the link,sorry). or try a blanket +3 reduction(minimum LA +0) http://members.lycos.co.uk/WizONegathael/dragons.htm ;)
the_heart 12-11-03, 10:37 AM	Originally posted by WizO_Negathael http://members.lycos.co.uk/WizONegathael/dragons.htm ;) many thanks :bow: note to self: must really learn how to do that linky thing. :angel:
LizarDruid 12-11-03, 12:01 PM	Nice discussion... Well, playing as a dragon is hard, sure, but I think you can have the same power that a standard PC has, but you have to think hard. Only one thig: magic items are the basis of a high-level character, and a dragon can use a lot of them, as said above. If you are a young, cute and helpless dragon, and are being threatened by the big-fullplate-and-+5vorpal-greatsword-wielding-fighter, buy a wand of antimagic field, use it and eat him. Simple.
AV 3e DM 12-11-03, 09:23 PM	VoP yourself and have a ball
Shell 12-11-03, 09:43 PM	But Wands are limited to Lvl 4 spells! and u cant get a scroll because u are lucky to be a first Lvl Caster =/ and the anitmagic feild isnt big enough =\ It still sucks that all Dragons now have the treasure of creaures twice their CR !! that they cant protect!
Lord of the Ninth 12-12-03, 12:36 AM	There are several factors at work here. First, Game designers have admitted that they intentionally jack up LAs. I don't know why, after all why make a book dedicated to style of play you intend to comsumately sabotage (SS). Also, we have the thing that Dragons have much lower CRs than any other monster of the smae power level. I have guesses anywhere from 1-5 points higher than a normal CR. This was done because none of the game designers wanted Dragons to be push-overs, if the PCs take on a dragon they should think of it as one of the most difficult encounters of their career. So your dragon might be CR 8-12. Then, when you take into account the aforementioned jacked up LAs, I would guess that an LA of 2-4 would be appropriate. So if you listen to me, the CR is about 11, and the ECL is about 16. This isn't so bad. Now, for those of you say "ECL and CR are completely different and ought not even be mentioned in the discussion." I have to say, while CR and ECL are different, CR is where the PC will live or die. Sure, you can fly away from an encounter, but if you fly over an orcish horde you get no XP and you stay level 1 until the day you die. In D&D you have to fight stuff, unless your DM (wisely) uses varient rules. So CR shouldn't be too far from ECL. I understand a few points of difference, but when the ECL is 2 to 3 times the CR, someone screwed up, royally. You know what I'd like to see? Someone give out a negative LA. Or a creature with multiple HD that has an LA +0. A monster who whose HD and general power level are in sync enough to all ow them to be played as a character of the same HD/level.
catharz 12-12-03, 04:58 AM	If you don't mind waiting until high levels to play a dragon -Oh, wait, you'd have to do that anyway- play a high-charisma Dragon rider (Dragonlance campaign setting). They get a special Dragon cohort ability that give them a cohort at ECL-3 of up to their own level (as opposed to level-1). That means you can effectively have a dragon at listed ECL-3, further supporting Negathael's conclusions.
Connie the Barbarian 12-13-03, 02:30 AM	One of the guys in my group is playing a wyrmling silver dragon/ cleric of Bahumat and played him from level 1 all the way up to 33 now. We came to the conclusion that their proper ECL for a silver wyrmling is 9, at this level they are just as powerful as any 9th level character any higher is too much and makes the character underpowered. Try to remember that ECL is kind of jacked up, and when compared with CR its epicly jacked up. I still cant figure out how a succubus CR 7 has a ECL of 12 but a Kyton CR 6 has an ECL of 14. Why does a lower CR creature have a higher ECL? Screwy huh?
nick012000 12-14-03, 03:12 AM	Maybe because it has more HD?
LizarDruid 12-16-03, 11:36 AM	"You know what I'd like to see? Someone give out a negative LA. Or a creature with multiple HD that has an LA +0. A monster who whose HD and general power level are in sync enough to all ow them to be played as a character of the same HD/level." There are some antropomorphic animals on Savage Species that have multiple HD and level adj. 0, as the antropomorphic ape and camel.
LizarDruid 12-16-03, 11:37 AM	"You know what I'd like to see? Someone give out a negative LA. Or a creature with multiple HD that has an LA +0. A monster who whose HD and general power level are in sync enough to all ow them to be played as a character of the same HD/level." There are some antropomorphic animals on Savage Species that have multiple HD and level adj. 0, as the antropomorphic ape and camel.
catharz 12-16-03, 03:21 PM	The zero-LA (in all harshness) on some anthro animals is probably just to favorably unbalance them so that PCs will be more likely to play new creatures from Savage species. I mean, look at Feral, Half-ogre, Desmodu as well as the anthro ones. Most of the 'power races' were created in Savage species (while they were buisy nerfing everything else).
Cthulthoth_the_Callin_Chaos 12-19-03, 01:18 PM	Ah, but there's the rub: Who would WANT to play a desmondu, which is, in effect, an overweight half-bat wookie-sans-the-asskickery-of-being-a-wookie?
Cthulthoth_the_Callin_Chaos 12-19-03, 01:18 PM	Ah, but there's the rub: Who would WANT to play a desmondu, which is, in effect, an overweight half-bat wookie-sans-the-asskickery-of-being-a-wookie?
Willie the Duck 12-27-03, 06:34 PM	The current rules for playing monsters as PCs (not just the specific decisions, but the actual rules, from including HD in the equation to the La system) is one of WotCs most extreme and grandest failures in their tenure as caretakers of the D&D gaming line. Seriously, if you can't put out a good product, don't put out any.
AramTheDM 12-28-03, 08:08 AM	If it's such an enormous failure, would you be so kind as to clarify for me what is wrong with it exactly, and also how it could be done better?:confused:
Ambrosious 12-29-03, 07:55 PM	Just thought I'd throw out (and plug :D) my dragon build. It mixes some 3.0 and 3.5, only because we're still waiting on a 3.5 Shifter. With this build you'll be a much better dragon then a dragon. Supernatural Shifting Druid (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=155600)
LordofChaos 12-30-03, 11:28 PM	Alright here is a thought. If the rules irritate you that much, just change them. Nothing is set in stone. The world is meant to be bent and twisted, although for some people it is fine just the way it is. If something really seems unfair, talk to the DM, see if you can work out a compromise so you can be a dragon and not be underpowered. Or accept the underpowered portion and focus on your character out of combat, or using his/her unique abilities. Don't be held back by the concepts of others.
LordofChaos 12-30-03, 11:28 PM	Alright here is a thought. If the rules irritate you that much, just change them. Nothing is set in stone. The world is meant to be bent and twisted, although for some people it is fine just the way it is. If something really seems unfair, talk to the DM, see if you can work out a compromise so you can be a dragon and not be underpowered. Or accept the underpowered portion and focus on your character out of combat, or using his/her unique abilities. Don't be held back by the concepts of others.
XxHANZO 12-31-03, 01:40 AM	also note that CR is what 4 PCs of that level (CR 7 means it should take 4 7th level pcs an average fight to kill it) A 7th lvl char VS a cr 7 creatur has about a 50% chance to live. So in those regards a monster is more power ful than a pc of it CR. Hence the LA. At around +5 it does get scetchy. I have a Hound Archon character who at lvl 21 is just getting on par with the other fighters in the group (He is advanced to 10 outsider HD (6 Fighter) making him large, Has 12 points natural armor , stats at STR 33, Dex 11, Con 21, Int 12, Wis 15 Cha 15. His BAB is a 16. ) His teleport at will and Magic Circle against evil have come in handy many times. He does pretty well with decent saves and such. A Dragon PC IMO would work out fairly well.