Crazy Diving Speeds... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Crazy Diving Speeds... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM
10-17-03, 04:38 PM Did anyone else notice that a great wyrm blue dragon with the feat "run", boots (claw gauntlets) of springing and striding, and hasted, could reach a downward air velocity, IIRC, 1200 feet... This is 4 times as high as "terminal velocity" as put on MotP.... So how is the dragon accomplishing this? It's definately not falling, since it's moving 4 times faster than any object can ever fall in D&D. So is it beating it's wings upside down or something?
Vaalingrade Ashland
10-17-03, 04:48 PM W actually had a discussion of this last session as the 1/2 dragon ended up falling faster than terminal. How is it possible?
Two ways:
1) Purposefully shirking wind resistance in front while increasing the pressure behind (cupping the wings may help)

2) As our 1/2 dragon learned, you can be propelled downward faster than terminal velocity. While she was propelled by the shcokwave of a phoenix's rebirth, the dragon may, via the enchantments and such, be able to flap with enough force to surpass gravity.
sandskimmer
10-17-03, 04:51 PM It's a fantasy game. It uses magic.
Don't try to apply real-world physics, and everything will be fine. 'Nuff said.
Vaalingrade Ashland
10-17-03, 05:09 PM So.. hot snow falls up? :confused:
Oberon_of_Avalon
10-17-03, 05:14 PM You really wanna muck with things, send your players to Limbo.

"So, which way is down?"
"Which way do you think it is?"
"Uh...towards that big piece of rock down there?" *SPLAT*
sandskimmer
10-17-03, 05:31 PM So.. hot snow falls up?
Only if you want it to! :)
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM
10-17-03, 05:55 PM While I agree that we shouldn't apply physics, the fact that a dragon can move FOUR times faster than terminal velocity as established by MotP is somewhat odd. Thus, I am discussing.
sandskimmer
10-17-03, 06:20 PM What is the MotP?

Perhaps terminal velocity needs to be increased?

I doubt they took into account ALL the magical enhancements that could be used to increase someone's speed.

Maybe it would just work better if the "run" feat only applied to actual running, and not to other speed modes such as fly or swim?
Vaalingrade Ashland
10-17-03, 06:36 PM But that hurts aquatic critters. I would say though, that a dive isn't a form of locomotion. Its really just strategic placement of gravity.
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM
10-17-03, 07:13 PM Originally posted by sandskimmer
What is the MotP?

Perhaps terminal velocity needs to be increased?

I doubt they took into account ALL the magical enhancements that could be used to increase someone's speed.

Maybe it would just work better if the "run" feat only applied to actual running, and not to other speed modes such as fly or swim?

Manual of the Planes.

Elemental Plane of Air is identical to Earth, but with no ground and infinate space: You fall 150 feet the first round, and then 300 feet every round after that.

Thus, we establish Terminal Velocity in D&D to be 50 ft/s
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
10-17-03, 07:34 PM That's seems a tad low...
Incenjucar
10-17-03, 08:04 PM Considering a dragon can rise, and can fly, despite its massive bulk, suddenly having gravity working FOR it would likely make flapping towards the ground rather effective.
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM
10-17-03, 08:06 PM Possibly.

A dragon diving with a single feat, a minor magic item and a 3rd level spell will fall at 200 ft/s.
Incenjucar
10-17-03, 08:08 PM Now.. make them a monk..

:D
Incenjucar
10-17-03, 08:10 PM Seriously, though.

Think of the air like water.

How do you swim downwards when sinking just isn't fast enough?

That's how a dragon power dives.
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM
10-17-03, 08:11 PM Originally posted by Incenjucar
Seriously, though.

Think of the air like water.

How do you swim downwards when sinking just isn't fast enough?

That's how a dragon power dives.

How do they see while going really fast, though? Or does he just wait until he hears a WHACK! BACK! and hopes his spine doesn't shatter? :D
Incenjucar
10-17-03, 08:14 PM I would assume the same way they have blind sense, etc.

They're giant flying creatures. They'll be adapated to it. Why do you think their eyes get all funky as they age?
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM
10-17-03, 08:15 PM Originally posted by Incenjucar
I would assume the same way they have blind sense, etc.

They're giant flying creatures. They'll be adapated to it. Why do you think their eyes get all funky as they age?

salt from the salt water they swim in? From staying up in those caves, waiting for the adventurers to come and attack? :P
Incenjucar
10-17-03, 08:16 PM Nah.

Ever seen what a sand blower does to plastic?

:D

Besides, the wind can't do hit locations any more than players can.
Vanigo
10-17-03, 09:28 PM Actually, my calculations put it at 3200. The dragon's base fly speed is 200, which is doubled by the "boots" to 400. He takes a run action straight down. It's x5 for running, and x2 for going down. That's 2400 feet if you use (x5 + x2 = x6), or 4000 if you use (x5 * x2 = x10). D&D usually uses the former, but it says to use the latter for real-world values, such as distance. Speed may or may not fall into that category. We'll assume it uses the former, simply because it's marginally less insane. Now he has his partial action from haste, which he uses to go straight down another 800 feet, for a total of 3200 feet.
It's even worse for a white, brass, or gold dragon, who has a base speed of 250. That gives you a total of 4000 feet a round.
Dragoninawheelchair
10-17-03, 10:30 PM Hmm...he is wearing Magical boots and has a Magical spell cast on him and your worrying about terminal velocity? Stop comparing fantasy to real life.
Vaalingrade Ashland
10-17-03, 10:46 PM Originally posted by Dragoninawheelchair
Hmm...he is wearing Magical boots and has a Magical spell cast on him and your worrying about terminal velocity? Stop comparing fantasy to real life.

So hot snow falls up for you too?
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM
10-17-03, 11:00 PM Hmm...he is wearing Magical boots and has a Magical spell cast on him and your worrying about terminal velocity? Stop comparing fantasy to real life.

The magical enchantments that affect speed do not affect his ability to seemingly defy the laws of physics. That's the forte of Reverse Gravity.

Now, he's going 533-666* ft/s! I know he's a dragon, but he's definately speeding, unless they repealed the laws of common sense and physics.

*Whoa. :devil:
Vaalingrade Ashland
10-17-03, 11:45 PM Like I said, being propelled, you can 'fall' faster than terminal velocity.
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM
10-17-03, 11:57 PM Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland
Like I said, being propelled, you can 'fall' faster than terminal velocity.

Yes, but now according to Vanigo, he's exceeding Terminal Velocity by 10 times or more! I could stomach maybe 3 times more if he did some sort of "reverse flapping", but 10 times? He's moving a bit more than 2/3 the speed of sound!
Colin
10-18-03, 12:58 AM That's nothing. Dungeon here says he can do 2 times the speed of sound while baking a cake!
wdarkk
10-18-03, 04:05 AM Imagine an Epic Prismatic Great Wyrm Paragon doing this!

350 *3 (paragon) *5 (run) *2 (down) *4/3 (haste) = 14000 ft/round.

That's 2333.33 ft/sec!

For reference, Mach 1 is about 1116 ft/sec.

Of course, the ELH is insane in places anyways.

How much damage would hitting, say, a mountainside at Mach 2.1 do to you? Would you even bother rolling?
General Dorsey
10-18-03, 11:03 AM The 4000 ft/rnd translates into 454.5 mph (20.3 m/s). That's twice the speed of a peregrine falcon, which is the fastest animal on earth. It achieves its speed from a dive as well. Adding magic that doubles its speed is well within the realm of DnD, so I don't think there is a problem.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM 10-17-03, 04:38 PM	Did anyone else notice that a great wyrm blue dragon with the feat "run", boots (claw gauntlets) of springing and striding, and hasted, could reach a downward air velocity, IIRC, 1200 feet... This is 4 times as high as "terminal velocity" as put on MotP.... So how is the dragon accomplishing this? It's definately not falling, since it's moving 4 times faster than any object can ever fall in D&D. So is it beating it's wings upside down or something?
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-17-03, 04:48 PM	W actually had a discussion of this last session as the 1/2 dragon ended up falling faster than terminal. How is it possible? Two ways: 1) Purposefully shirking wind resistance in front while increasing the pressure behind (cupping the wings may help) 2) As our 1/2 dragon learned, you can be propelled downward faster than terminal velocity. While she was propelled by the shcokwave of a phoenix's rebirth, the dragon may, via the enchantments and such, be able to flap with enough force to surpass gravity.
sandskimmer 10-17-03, 04:51 PM	It's a fantasy game. It uses magic. Don't try to apply real-world physics, and everything will be fine. 'Nuff said.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-17-03, 05:09 PM	So.. hot snow falls up? :confused:
Oberon_of_Avalon 10-17-03, 05:14 PM	You really wanna muck with things, send your players to Limbo. "So, which way is down?" "Which way do you think it is?" "Uh...towards that big piece of rock down there?" SPLAT
sandskimmer 10-17-03, 05:31 PM	So.. hot snow falls up? Only if you want it to! :)
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM 10-17-03, 05:55 PM	While I agree that we shouldn't apply physics, the fact that a dragon can move FOUR times faster than terminal velocity as established by MotP is somewhat odd. Thus, I am discussing.
sandskimmer 10-17-03, 06:20 PM	What is the MotP? Perhaps terminal velocity needs to be increased? I doubt they took into account ALL the magical enhancements that could be used to increase someone's speed. Maybe it would just work better if the "run" feat only applied to actual running, and not to other speed modes such as fly or swim?
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-17-03, 06:36 PM	But that hurts aquatic critters. I would say though, that a dive isn't a form of locomotion. Its really just strategic placement of gravity.
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM 10-17-03, 07:13 PM	Originally posted by sandskimmer What is the MotP? Perhaps terminal velocity needs to be increased? I doubt they took into account ALL the magical enhancements that could be used to increase someone's speed. Maybe it would just work better if the "run" feat only applied to actual running, and not to other speed modes such as fly or swim? Manual of the Planes. Elemental Plane of Air is identical to Earth, but with no ground and infinate space: You fall 150 feet the first round, and then 300 feet every round after that. Thus, we establish Terminal Velocity in D&D to be 50 ft/s
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 10-17-03, 07:34 PM	That's seems a tad low...
Incenjucar 10-17-03, 08:04 PM	Considering a dragon can rise, and can fly, despite its massive bulk, suddenly having gravity working FOR it would likely make flapping towards the ground rather effective.
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM 10-17-03, 08:06 PM	Possibly. A dragon diving with a single feat, a minor magic item and a 3rd level spell will fall at 200 ft/s.
Incenjucar 10-17-03, 08:08 PM	Now.. make them a monk.. :D
Incenjucar 10-17-03, 08:10 PM	Seriously, though. Think of the air like water. How do you swim downwards when sinking just isn't fast enough? That's how a dragon power dives.
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM 10-17-03, 08:11 PM	Originally posted by Incenjucar Seriously, though. Think of the air like water. How do you swim downwards when sinking just isn't fast enough? That's how a dragon power dives. How do they see while going really fast, though? Or does he just wait until he hears a WHACK! BACK! and hopes his spine doesn't shatter? :D
Incenjucar 10-17-03, 08:14 PM	I would assume the same way they have blind sense, etc. They're giant flying creatures. They'll be adapated to it. Why do you think their eyes get all funky as they age?
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM 10-17-03, 08:15 PM	Originally posted by Incenjucar I would assume the same way they have blind sense, etc. They're giant flying creatures. They'll be adapated to it. Why do you think their eyes get all funky as they age? salt from the salt water they swim in? From staying up in those caves, waiting for the adventurers to come and attack? :P
Incenjucar 10-17-03, 08:16 PM	Nah. Ever seen what a sand blower does to plastic? :D Besides, the wind can't do hit locations any more than players can.
Vanigo 10-17-03, 09:28 PM	Actually, my calculations put it at 3200. The dragon's base fly speed is 200, which is doubled by the "boots" to 400. He takes a run action straight down. It's x5 for running, and x2 for going down. That's 2400 feet if you use (x5 + x2 = x6), or 4000 if you use (x5 * x2 = x10). D&D usually uses the former, but it says to use the latter for real-world values, such as distance. Speed may or may not fall into that category. We'll assume it uses the former, simply because it's marginally less insane. Now he has his partial action from haste, which he uses to go straight down another 800 feet, for a total of 3200 feet. It's even worse for a white, brass, or gold dragon, who has a base speed of 250. That gives you a total of 4000 feet a round.
Dragoninawheelchair 10-17-03, 10:30 PM	Hmm...he is wearing Magical boots and has a Magical spell cast on him and your worrying about terminal velocity? Stop comparing fantasy to real life.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-17-03, 10:46 PM	Originally posted by Dragoninawheelchair Hmm...he is wearing Magical boots and has a Magical spell cast on him and your worrying about terminal velocity? Stop comparing fantasy to real life. So hot snow falls up for you too?
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM 10-17-03, 11:00 PM	Hmm...he is wearing Magical boots and has a Magical spell cast on him and your worrying about terminal velocity? Stop comparing fantasy to real life. The magical enchantments that affect speed do not affect his ability to seemingly defy the laws of physics. That's the forte of Reverse Gravity. Now, he's going 533-666* ft/s! I know he's a dragon, but he's definately speeding, unless they repealed the laws of common sense and physics. *Whoa. :devil:
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-17-03, 11:45 PM	Like I said, being propelled, you can 'fall' faster than terminal velocity.
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM 10-17-03, 11:57 PM	Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland Like I said, being propelled, you can 'fall' faster than terminal velocity. Yes, but now according to Vanigo, he's exceeding Terminal Velocity by 10 times or more! I could stomach maybe 3 times more if he did some sort of "reverse flapping", but 10 times? He's moving a bit more than 2/3 the speed of sound!
Colin 10-18-03, 12:58 AM	That's nothing. Dungeon here says he can do 2 times the speed of sound while baking a cake!
wdarkk 10-18-03, 04:05 AM	Imagine an Epic Prismatic Great Wyrm Paragon doing this! 350 3 (paragon) 5 (run) 2 (down) 4/3 (haste) = 14000 ft/round. That's 2333.33 ft/sec! For reference, Mach 1 is about 1116 ft/sec. Of course, the ELH is insane in places anyways. How much damage would hitting, say, a mountainside at Mach 2.1 do to you? Would you even bother rolling?
General Dorsey 10-18-03, 11:03 AM	The 4000 ft/rnd translates into 454.5 mph (20.3 m/s). That's twice the speed of a peregrine falcon, which is the fastest animal on earth. It achieves its speed from a dive as well. Adding magic that doubles its speed is well within the realm of DnD, so I don't think there is a problem.