Creating A BAB [Archive] - Wizards Community

Creating A BAB [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Yarroq
05-18-07, 04:50 AM Hi, I am working on creating a creature (CR 20) using the rules from the Mon. Manual. The formula for determining the Base Attack Bonus seems off: CR x 1.5 +2. That gives me a grand total of 32?! Not to mention the STR bonus! Way too high. Is this eratta? I tried looking but cant access the Eratta for this book. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Witch
05-18-07, 04:58 AM Are you saying an attack bonus of 32 is too high for a CR 20 creature?

A Pit Fiend has BAB +18 and Attack Bonus +30.
A Tarrasque has BAB +48 and Attack Bonus +57
A Balor has BAB +20 and Attack Bonus +31.
A Dragon has BAB +34 and Attack Bonus +42.

Hardly absurd, then. Now, you need to remember that you can't just pull base attack bonus out of thin air, though. It always relates to your hit dice.
Yarroq
05-18-07, 05:09 AM Thanks for the quick reply.

What are the CR's for your examples? Just curious, and i dont have the books in front of me....

The monster I am making IS supposed to be great in a melee but a BAB 32 plus another 8 for STR just seems too high. It will be facing off against 4 player characters...the highest AC among them is 19, I believe. Just seems off that this creature could roll a 2 on the d20 and still connect.

Most likely I am making a mistake or 3 somewhere. I haven't DMed a DnD game since about 1891. :weep:

Thanks again.
Witch
05-18-07, 05:11 AM The CRs for my examples are all 20, obviously, otherwise I wouldn't have listed them. A 19 AC the highest is what you should have at first level. Not at 20st.

19 AC: 10 + 1 Dexterity + 8 Full Plate.
That's pathetically low. If your PCs still have that at 20th level, they should've been dead long ago.
DrMorganes
05-18-07, 05:14 AM Woah - hold on. You're putting a CR20 creature up against a party where the HIGHEST AC is 19?!

Something's not right here, and I don't think it's your BAB calculation...
runestar
05-18-07, 05:24 AM Maybe they are all masochistic barbarians with karmic strike and rolibar's gambit...:P
Yarroq
05-18-07, 05:26 AM The character's are all about 5th level, but they have access to some resources and magic items that are fairly powerful.

I wanted the encounter to be highly challenging (Plan A: Run!) and I have "warned" them throughout the campaign not to face off against it if possible. However, if they get cornered, I did not want it to be a automic defeat. I suppose I should lower the CR a bit.....
Witch
05-18-07, 05:33 AM If you want "incredibly hard" but not automatic defeat, you don't want CR 20. You want CR 9 (or 10).
Morwen
05-18-07, 06:35 AM The monster I am making IS supposed to be great in a melee but a BAB 32 plus another 8 for STR just seems too high. It will be facing off against 4 player characters...the highest AC among them is 19, I believe. Just seems off that this creature could roll a 2 on the d20 and still connect.

Most likely I am making a mistake or 3 somewhere. I haven't DMed a DnD game since about 1891. :weep:

The rule about creating monsters goes by total attack bonus, not base attack bonus. So the 32 would be after applying all modifiers, such as Strength.
Borris
05-18-07, 07:06 AM A monster's BAB is determined only by its type and number of hit dice.
An undead gets a BAB of 1/2 HD, a giant has 3/4 HD, and so on.

And according to the DMG (page 49), a difficult encounter (one the party can win but forces the players to expend more ressources than on a typical encounter) should have an Encounter Level of party level +1 to party level +4. Starting at party level +5, the encounter qualifies as overpowering. The PCs should run. if they don't, they will almost certainly die.

In your case, if you want the PCs to have a chance of winning, go for a CR 9 monster. If you want to force them to run, a CR 11 or so monster should do it.

Finally, AC 19 at 5th level is quite reasonable. At level 20, though, players should have ACs in the mid 30's. I just DMed a game with level 11 characters this weekend, and ACs in the group ranged from 21 to 28.
Thiez
05-18-07, 08:15 AM Try using a CR 11 Assassin Vine... :D

Take the Assassin Vine, then add 24 HD.

Final CR: 3 + (24 / 4) + 2 (2 times a size increase) = 11

Heh, I'll stat it out for you in a few mins. Assassin vines are killers.
Thiez
05-18-07, 08:34 AM There she is, my baby:

Assassin Vine
Size/Type: Large Plant
Hit Dice: 28d8+196 (322 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 5 ft. (1 square)
Armor Class: 22 (-3 size, +13 natural, -1 dex)
Base Attack/Grapple: +21/+49
Attack: Slam +34 + str melee (2d6+24)
Full Attack: Slam +34/+29/+24/+19 melee (2d6+24)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./20 ft. (40 ft. with vine)
Special Attacks: Constrict 2d6+24, entangle, improved grab
Special Qualities: Blindsight 30 ft., camouflage, immunity to electricity, low-light vision, plant traits, resistance to cold 10 and fire 10
Saves: Fort +23, Ref +8, Will +10
Abilities: Str 42, Dex 8, Con 24, Int -, Wis 13, Cha 9
CR 11

Combat

An assassin vine uses simple tactics: It lies still until prey comes within reach, then attacks. It uses its entangle ability both to catch prey and to deter counterattacks.

Constrict (Ex)
An assassin vine deals 2d6+24 points of damage with a successful grapple check.

Entangle (Su)
An assassin vine can animate plants within 30 feet of itself as a free action (Ref DC 25 partial).
The effect lasts until the vine dies or decides to end it (also a free action). The save DC is Wisdom-based. The ability is otherwise similar to entangle (caster level 4th).

Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, an assassin vine must hit with its slam attack.
It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Blindsight (Ex)
Assassin vines have no visual organs but can ascertain all foes within 30 feet using sound, scent, and vibration.

Camouflage (Ex)
Since an assassin vine looks like a normal plant when at rest, it takes a DC 20 Spot check to notice it before it attacks.

Anyone with ranks in Survival or Knowledge (nature) can use one of those skills instead of Spot to notice the plant. Dwarves can use stonecunning to notice the subterranean version.

If they fail the DC 20 Spot check, they're dead. Really, really, very very dead.
Try finding a Template that grants a decent flight speed and dump some of the HD.
obrysii
05-18-07, 09:29 AM Full Attack: Slam +34/+29/+24/+19 melee (2d6+24)

Slams don't get iterative attacks.
Thiez
05-18-07, 10:14 AM :(

Edit: oh well, he can still use 3 attacks for the Constrict attack after grappling an opponent with his first attack.
Thiez
05-18-07, 10:48 AM Assassin Vine
Size/Type: Large Plant (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 28d8+196 (322 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares)
Armor Class: 22 (-3 size, +13 natural, -1 dex)
Base Attack/Grapple: +21/+53
Attack: Slam +34 + str melee (2d6+24)
Full Attack: Slam +34 melee (2d6+24) or Unarmed Strike +35/+30/+25/+20 (1d8+16 19-20/x2)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./20 ft. (40 ft. with vine)
Special Attacks: Constrict 2d6+24, entangle, improved grab, Smite Good
Special Qualities: Blindsight 30 ft., camouflage, immunity to electricity, low-light vision, plant traits, resistance to cold 10 and fire 10, Darkvision 60 ft., Damage Reduction 10/Magic, Spell Resistance 25
Saves: Fort +23, Ref +8, Will +10
Abilities: Str 42, Dex 8, Con 24, Int 3, Wis 13, Cha 9
Skills: Move Silently +30
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Dash, Rock Hurling, Fling Enemy
CR 13
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Combat

An assassin vine uses simple tactics: It lies still until prey comes within reach, then attacks. It uses its entangle ability both to catch prey and to deter counterattacks.

Constrict (Ex)
An assassin vine deals 2d6+24 points of damage with a successful grapple check.

Entangle (Su)
An assassin vine can animate plants within 30 feet of itself as a free action (Ref DC 25 partial).
The effect lasts until the vine dies or decides to end it (also a free action). The save DC is Wisdom-based. The ability is otherwise similar to entangle (caster level 4th).

Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, an assassin vine must hit with its slam attack.
It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Blindsight (Ex)
Assassin vines have no visual organs but can ascertain all foes within 30 feet using sound, scent, and vibration.

Camouflage (Ex)
Since an assassin vine looks like a normal plant when at rest, it takes a DC 20 Spot check to notice it before it attacks.
Anyone with ranks in Survival or Knowledge (nature) can use one of those skills instead of Spot to notice the plant. Dwarves can use stonecunning to notice the subterranean version.

Smite Good (Su)
Once per day the creature can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD total (maximum of +20) against a good foe.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
05-20-07, 02:18 PM The character's are all about 5th level, but they have access to some resources and magic items that are fairly powerful.

I wanted the encounter to be highly challenging (Plan A: Run!) and I have "warned" them throughout the campaign not to face off against it if possible. However, if they get cornered, I did not want it to be a automic defeat. I suppose I should lower the CR a bit.....

You want CR 8 then. Anything higher and they're dead. A CR 20 creature will kill the entire party even if they run.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yarroq 05-18-07, 04:50 AM	Hi, I am working on creating a creature (CR 20) using the rules from the Mon. Manual. The formula for determining the Base Attack Bonus seems off: CR x 1.5 +2. That gives me a grand total of 32?! Not to mention the STR bonus! Way too high. Is this eratta? I tried looking but cant access the Eratta for this book. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Witch 05-18-07, 04:58 AM	Are you saying an attack bonus of 32 is too high for a CR 20 creature? A Pit Fiend has BAB +18 and Attack Bonus +30. A Tarrasque has BAB +48 and Attack Bonus +57 A Balor has BAB +20 and Attack Bonus +31. A Dragon has BAB +34 and Attack Bonus +42. Hardly absurd, then. Now, you need to remember that you can't just pull base attack bonus out of thin air, though. It always relates to your hit dice.
Yarroq 05-18-07, 05:09 AM	Thanks for the quick reply. What are the CR's for your examples? Just curious, and i dont have the books in front of me.... The monster I am making IS supposed to be great in a melee but a BAB 32 plus another 8 for STR just seems too high. It will be facing off against 4 player characters...the highest AC among them is 19, I believe. Just seems off that this creature could roll a 2 on the d20 and still connect. Most likely I am making a mistake or 3 somewhere. I haven't DMed a DnD game since about 1891. :weep: Thanks again.
Witch 05-18-07, 05:11 AM	The CRs for my examples are all 20, obviously, otherwise I wouldn't have listed them. A 19 AC the highest is what you should have at first level. Not at 20st. 19 AC: 10 + 1 Dexterity + 8 Full Plate. That's pathetically low. If your PCs still have that at 20th level, they should've been dead long ago.
DrMorganes 05-18-07, 05:14 AM	Woah - hold on. You're putting a CR20 creature up against a party where the HIGHEST AC is 19?! Something's not right here, and I don't think it's your BAB calculation...
runestar 05-18-07, 05:24 AM	Maybe they are all masochistic barbarians with karmic strike and rolibar's gambit...:P
Yarroq 05-18-07, 05:26 AM	The character's are all about 5th level, but they have access to some resources and magic items that are fairly powerful. I wanted the encounter to be highly challenging (Plan A: Run!) and I have "warned" them throughout the campaign not to face off against it if possible. However, if they get cornered, I did not want it to be a automic defeat. I suppose I should lower the CR a bit.....
Witch 05-18-07, 05:33 AM	If you want "incredibly hard" but not automatic defeat, you don't want CR 20. You want CR 9 (or 10).
Morwen 05-18-07, 06:35 AM	The monster I am making IS supposed to be great in a melee but a BAB 32 plus another 8 for STR just seems too high. It will be facing off against 4 player characters...the highest AC among them is 19, I believe. Just seems off that this creature could roll a 2 on the d20 and still connect. Most likely I am making a mistake or 3 somewhere. I haven't DMed a DnD game since about 1891. :weep: The rule about creating monsters goes by total attack bonus, not base attack bonus. So the 32 would be after applying all modifiers, such as Strength.
Borris 05-18-07, 07:06 AM	A monster's BAB is determined only by its type and number of hit dice. An undead gets a BAB of 1/2 HD, a giant has 3/4 HD, and so on. And according to the DMG (page 49), a difficult encounter (one the party can win but forces the players to expend more ressources than on a typical encounter) should have an Encounter Level of party level +1 to party level +4. Starting at party level +5, the encounter qualifies as overpowering. The PCs should run. if they don't, they will almost certainly die. In your case, if you want the PCs to have a chance of winning, go for a CR 9 monster. If you want to force them to run, a CR 11 or so monster should do it. Finally, AC 19 at 5th level is quite reasonable. At level 20, though, players should have ACs in the mid 30's. I just DMed a game with level 11 characters this weekend, and ACs in the group ranged from 21 to 28.
Thiez 05-18-07, 08:15 AM	Try using a CR 11 Assassin Vine... :D Take the Assassin Vine, then add 24 HD. Final CR: 3 + (24 / 4) + 2 (2 times a size increase) = 11 Heh, I'll stat it out for you in a few mins. Assassin vines are killers.
Thiez 05-18-07, 08:34 AM	There she is, my baby: Assassin Vine Size/Type: Large Plant Hit Dice: 28d8+196 (322 hp) Initiative: -1 Speed: 5 ft. (1 square) Armor Class: 22 (-3 size, +13 natural, -1 dex) Base Attack/Grapple: +21/+49 Attack: Slam +34 + str melee (2d6+24) Full Attack: Slam +34/+29/+24/+19 melee (2d6+24) Space/Reach: 20 ft./20 ft. (40 ft. with vine) Special Attacks: Constrict 2d6+24, entangle, improved grab Special Qualities: Blindsight 30 ft., camouflage, immunity to electricity, low-light vision, plant traits, resistance to cold 10 and fire 10 Saves: Fort +23, Ref +8, Will +10 Abilities: Str 42, Dex 8, Con 24, Int -, Wis 13, Cha 9 CR 11 Combat An assassin vine uses simple tactics: It lies still until prey comes within reach, then attacks. It uses its entangle ability both to catch prey and to deter counterattacks. Constrict (Ex) An assassin vine deals 2d6+24 points of damage with a successful grapple check. Entangle (Su) An assassin vine can animate plants within 30 feet of itself as a free action (Ref DC 25 partial). The effect lasts until the vine dies or decides to end it (also a free action). The save DC is Wisdom-based. The ability is otherwise similar to entangle (caster level 4th). Improved Grab (Ex) To use this ability, an assassin vine must hit with its slam attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict. Blindsight (Ex) Assassin vines have no visual organs but can ascertain all foes within 30 feet using sound, scent, and vibration. Camouflage (Ex) Since an assassin vine looks like a normal plant when at rest, it takes a DC 20 Spot check to notice it before it attacks. Anyone with ranks in Survival or Knowledge (nature) can use one of those skills instead of Spot to notice the plant. Dwarves can use stonecunning to notice the subterranean version. If they fail the DC 20 Spot check, they're dead. Really, really, very very dead. Try finding a Template that grants a decent flight speed and dump some of the HD.
obrysii 05-18-07, 09:29 AM	Full Attack: Slam +34/+29/+24/+19 melee (2d6+24) Slams don't get iterative attacks.
Thiez 05-18-07, 10:14 AM	:( Edit: oh well, he can still use 3 attacks for the Constrict attack after grappling an opponent with his first attack.
Thiez 05-18-07, 10:48 AM	Assassin Vine Size/Type: Large Plant (Extraplanar) Hit Dice: 28d8+196 (322 hp) Initiative: -1 Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares) Armor Class: 22 (-3 size, +13 natural, -1 dex) Base Attack/Grapple: +21/+53 Attack: Slam +34 + str melee (2d6+24) Full Attack: Slam +34 melee (2d6+24) or Unarmed Strike +35/+30/+25/+20 (1d8+16 19-20/x2) Space/Reach: 20 ft./20 ft. (40 ft. with vine) Special Attacks: Constrict 2d6+24, entangle, improved grab, Smite Good Special Qualities: Blindsight 30 ft., camouflage, immunity to electricity, low-light vision, plant traits, resistance to cold 10 and fire 10, Darkvision 60 ft., Damage Reduction 10/Magic, Spell Resistance 25 Saves: Fort +23, Ref +8, Will +10 Abilities: Str 42, Dex 8, Con 24, Int 3, Wis 13, Cha 9 Skills: Move Silently +30 Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Dash, Rock Hurling, Fling Enemy CR 13 Alignment: Neutral Evil Combat An assassin vine uses simple tactics: It lies still until prey comes within reach, then attacks. It uses its entangle ability both to catch prey and to deter counterattacks. Constrict (Ex) An assassin vine deals 2d6+24 points of damage with a successful grapple check. Entangle (Su) An assassin vine can animate plants within 30 feet of itself as a free action (Ref DC 25 partial). The effect lasts until the vine dies or decides to end it (also a free action). The save DC is Wisdom-based. The ability is otherwise similar to entangle (caster level 4th). Improved Grab (Ex) To use this ability, an assassin vine must hit with its slam attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict. Blindsight (Ex) Assassin vines have no visual organs but can ascertain all foes within 30 feet using sound, scent, and vibration. Camouflage (Ex) Since an assassin vine looks like a normal plant when at rest, it takes a DC 20 Spot check to notice it before it attacks. Anyone with ranks in Survival or Knowledge (nature) can use one of those skills instead of Spot to notice the plant. Dwarves can use stonecunning to notice the subterranean version. Smite Good (Su) Once per day the creature can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD total (maximum of +20) against a good foe.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 05-20-07, 02:18 PM	The character's are all about 5th level, but they have access to some resources and magic items that are fairly powerful. I wanted the encounter to be highly challenging (Plan A: Run!) and I have "warned" them throughout the campaign not to face off against it if possible. However, if they get cornered, I did not want it to be a automic defeat. I suppose I should lower the CR a bit..... You want CR 8 then. Anything higher and they're dead. A CR 20 creature will kill the entire party even if they run.