Creating Lycanthropes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Creating Lycanthropes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Turlis
04-17-06, 01:28 AM Does anyone know of any threads or online literature that gives advice on creating lycanthropes? I've followed the guidelines in the Monster Manual to create some were-mountain lions, but I just want to see if I've done it correctly. I'd also like to see other peoples ideas for new lycanthropes.
pileobone
04-17-06, 01:05 PM Post the stats you came up with and we can check em' to make sure you got em' correct.
Turlis
04-17-06, 03:39 PM Ok, here's the stat blocks in elven, animal and hybrid form. I worry that he's overpowered. He's a 7th level elf ranger / were-mountain lion. I want him to be really tough, so I gave him great ability scores. For everything else I tried to just follow what the MM instructions were. Here he is in human, animal, and hybrid form. He's a natural lycanthrope.

I ran into problems trying to reconcile two-weapon fighting and improved two-weapon fighting as a hybrid that also has primary and secondary natural attacks and multi-attack as a feat. I also took liberties with the bracers of armor and ring of protection and let him use them in any form.

Also, I think I modified the ability scores correctly for the different forms using Leopard from the MM as the base animal, and I used his dexterity modifier instead of strength on all his attacks, since he has weapon finesse and the natural weapons are considered light weapons.

If there are any questions on how I got certain numbers, I can provide a breakdown on all of them.

I have no idea how to calculate DC, however. Any ideas?

Elven Form

HD 7d8 + 7 plus 3d8 +12 (HP 72)

Speed 30 ft.

AC 22 (+4 +1 studded leather armor, +4 dex, +2 nat armor, +2 ring of prot +2)

Saves: Fort +9, Reflex +12, Will +8

Abilities: Str 14, Dex 19, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 12

BAB/Grapple: +9 / +11

Attack: +1 Keen Rapier +14/+9 melee (1d6+3), crit 15-20/x2

Full Attack: +1 Keen Rapier +14/+9 melee (1d6+3), crit 15-20/x2 and +2 Frost Dagger +13/+8 melee or ranged (1d4+4 plus 1d6 cold), crit x3
OR Masterwork Longbow +14/+9 ranged (1d8), crit x3

Skills: Balance +12, Climb +10, Hide +23, Jump +10, Listen +16, Move Sil. +23, Search +13, Spot +19, Survival +12

Feats/Class/Racial Skills: Elven Traits, Immune to sleep and sleep effects, +2 to listen, search and spot, Low-Light Vision, 1st favored enemy - animals, 2nd favored enemy - magical beasts, Track, Wild Empathy, Combat Style - Two Weapon Fighting, Endurance, Animal Companion, Woodland Stride, Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative, Stealthy, Multi-Attack, Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Iron Will

Animal Form
HD 7d8 + 7 plus 3d8 +12 (HP 72)

Speed 40 ft.

AC 24 (+2 bracers of armor, +7 dex, +3 nat armor, +2 ring of prot +2)

Saves: Fort +12, Reflex +15, Will +8

Abilities: Str 20, Dex 25, Con 19, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 12

BAB/Grapple: +9 / +14

Attack: Bite +20/+15 melee (1d6+5), crit x2

Full Attack: Bite +20/+15 melee (1d6+5), crit x2; and 2 claws +18/+13 (1d3+5), crit x2

Skills: Balance +15, Climb +13, Hide +26, Jump +13, Listen +16, Move Sil. +26, Search +13, Spot +19, Survival +12

Feats/Class/Racial Skills: Damage Reduction 10/silver, Curse of Lycanthropy, Elven Traits, Immune to sleep and sleep effects, +2 to listen, search and spot, Low-Light Vision, 1st favored enemy - animals, 2nd favored enemy - magical beasts, Track, Wild Empathy, Combat Style - Two Weapon Fighting, Endurance, Animal Companion, Woodland Stride, Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative, Stealthy, Multi-Attack, Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Iron Will

Hybrid Form
HD 7d8 + 7 plus 3d8 +12 (HP 72)

Speed 40 ft.

AC 24 (+2 bracers of armor, +7 dex, +3 nat armor, +2 ring of prot +2)

Saves: Fort +12, Reflex +15, Will +8

Abilities: Str 20, Dex 25, Con 19, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 12

BAB/Grapple: +9 / +14

Attack: Bite +16/+11 melee (1d6+5), crit x2 OR +1 Keen Rapier +17/+12 melee (1d6+6), crit 15-20/x2

Full Attack: 2 claws +16/+11 (1d3+5), crit x2 and Bite +14/+9 melee (1d6+5), crit x2;
OR
+1 Keen Rapier +15/+10 melee (1d6+6), crit 15-20/x2 and +2 Frost Dagger +13/+9 melee or ranged (1d4+7 plus 1d6 cold dmg.)
OR
Masterwork Longbow +17 ranged (1d8), crit x3

Skills: Balance +15, Climb +13, Hide +26, Jump +13, Listen +16, Move Sil. +26, Search +13, Spot +19, Survival +12

Feats/Class/Racial Skills: Damage Reduction 10/silver, Curse of Lycanthropy, Elven Traits, Immune to sleep and sleep effects, +2 to listen, search and spot, Low-Light Vision, 1st favored enemy - animals, 2nd favored enemy - magical beasts, Track, Wild Empathy, Combat Style - Two Weapon Fighting, Endurance, Animal Companion, Woodland Stride, Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative, Stealthy, Multi-Attack, Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Iron Will
Koji
04-17-06, 04:57 PM I've been thinking about dire lycanthropes--doesn't this seem kind of stupid to anyone else? Why be a werewolf when you can be a DIRE werewolf?

I choose to limit dire forms to giants and regular forms to humanoids, but is there any meaningful way to divide it by hit die rather than by type?
Lard_Rent_Hensley
04-17-06, 07:09 PM Hi, If you take Lycanthropy to be a transmissable disease, that causes the DNA to warp of the victim, then TBH there is not really any limit.
I freaked one of my new players (a little unfairly) by turning him in to a were-spider ( I used an Ettercap for ECL stats etc).

Were - Horse; Were - badger; wolverine; "Mold (puddings etc)"; the options are endless.

I took it that one of my "research" NPC Evil Wizard was experimenting a way to make Lycanthropy more spreadable, and came up with a potent mix.

However as DM I regard Lycanthropy AS A CURSE, not just an excuse for a character to have some cool moves.

The first transformations will be completely out of the control of the "host" and at best they will have nightmare memories of what they have done in the Lycanthrope form (which will have some carry over bonuses / penalties to their "host" form).

As they begin to understand what is happening, a fight goes on for control of the alternate form, with no guarantee that it will be successful.

If they are successful and get control then being able to shift form on demand can be quite cool and very rewarding, but the journey to that control should be a challenge in it's own right. (For one thing it should raise the ECL of the character, unless he loses control, then he becomes an NPC).

There was a "wolfman" mag in the 70s (Marvel??) that demonstrated the war between the Host and the Wolf very well.

Cheers
Lard_Rent_Hensley
04-17-06, 07:21 PM You've listed down as having an animal companion. Traditionally most natural animals will not associate with Were - beings as they sense the un-natural taint in the blood. NOT having a companion will help balance up this character.
Also, I apologise if I'm making a mistake here, but 1st favoured enemy as "animals" seems
(a) to vague - what you have the whole of the Animal Kingdom as your enemy?
(b) I don't think you've given your alignment, Unless one of the "evil" alignments then you are meant to be protecting (natural) animals, not declaring them your enemy.

Same for "magical beasts" - too vague, there's hundreds of them.
Koji
04-17-06, 07:40 PM (a) to vague - what you have the whole of the Animal Kingdom as your enemy?
(b) I don't think you've given your alignment, Unless one of the "evil" alignments then you are meant to be protecting (natural) animals, not declaring them your enemy.

Same for "magical beasts" - too vague, there's hundreds of them.

Hundreds of thousands, but that's how the ability works.
Lard_Rent_Hensley
04-17-06, 11:07 PM Hmm. I have not got the books here at work, but I'm fairly certain that it is NOT the way it works.
Just because you can track a giraffe and know how to kill it, does not mean you could do the same to an armadillo, yet this is what you are implying.
If there has been a change to allow this, then someone has made a huge **** up.
"animals" would also cover birds and fish, no way.

(not being personal)

cheers
ClementWillowbreaker
04-18-06, 05:43 PM It's always been that way. Favored Enemy is against a Type of creature. It says so right in the PHB. There are also no alignment restrictions on choosing them. There are also no restrictions on animal companions for being lycanthropes. In fact, you get +4 to dealing with animals of your animal form.

As for Dire Lycanthropes, those are allowed. The "werewolf lord" in the MM is a Dire Wolf. The only restriction is that the animal form must be within one size category of the base creature (so Giants would have a wider selection of Dire versions of normally Large animals).
Gothenem
04-18-06, 07:11 PM All quotes from the SRD.

At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature from among those given on Table: Ranger Favored Enemies. The ranger gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against creatures of this type. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.

Animal is on the list. That means you get the bonus against all creatures of the animal type. Same with Magical Beasts.

The only types it requires you to specify with is Humanoid and Outsider:

If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table. If a specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy, the ranger’s bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is higher.

While you can make a house rule narrowing the options Favored Enemy: Giraffe is too limited to make a good class feature. I suppose if you ignored types and went for general shapes it might not be that bad. For example Favored Enemy (Equine Beings) Would cover Horses, Centaurs, Pegasai, Unicorns, and Nightmares. That may not be too bad.
Lard_Rent_Hensley
04-18-06, 08:24 PM I didn't have the books with me, but I always took it that you had to at least specify a body shape.

I know this is fantasy, but "animals" is just tooooo wide a category. I have honestly never tried it, but I would imagine the skills needed to hunt a lion (animal carnivore) are much different to hunting a zebra (animal herbivore) to catching a trout (fish - still an animal).

Unfortunately I tend to go on more than just the Handbooks, which is where I think the Lycanthrope "taint" preventing a natural animal companion should come in. Animals are not just "props".

I just thought it was a way of balancing this character up (down)
ClementWillowbreaker
04-18-06, 09:39 PM Lycanthropes are balanced by their Level Adjustment and animal Hit Dice, all of which retard power growth. They don't need random rulings against them. Especially for those Lawful Good werebears.

Considering how often "animals" are the enemy in the typical DnD game, it is entirely balanced to have them all group. We aren't playing, "Life of the Massai" in which lion hunting and cow herding both represent significant daily challenges. Nor are we actually hunting them most of the time. We are going into caves, and occasionally finding bears, or killing druids that happen to have animals all around them.
Lard_Rent_Hensley
04-19-06, 12:55 AM Er to your first point, have you READ those stats? And it still does not negate my point about animals disliking the Lycanthrope taint.

To your 2nd point, what are you trying to say?
I'm saying declaring the entire Animal Kingdom as your Favoured Enemy and you get your bonuses against EVERY living thing (whether your character could reasonably have run in to them before) is way overpowered.

You are pointing out that "we just encounter the odd animal" which surely implies that you cannot have built up any experience with that particular animal, which re-enforces my objection.

I wasn't even particularily bothered about it, but insisting that a Ranger can treat a badger; a wombat and a guppy all the same; whether or not he has ever encountered them before just because "they are animals" is silly.
Gothenem
04-19-06, 07:09 PM It is not against the entire animal kingdom (which includes humans). Only to creatures with the Type "Animal" as listed in the Monster Manual, which includes all the animals in Appendix 1, plus the Bat swarm, Rat swarm, dire animals and dinosaurs. It does not inlcude things like Magical beasts, Vermin, Humanoids, etc. Even if they would be in the Animal Kingdom (Otherwise known as the Kingdom of Animalia).

If you want to house rule that you have to specify, go ahead.

I won't play a ranger in your game though. It is not a benefit if favored enemy can't be used
at least a few times. If you took Favored Enemy (Bears) and never encountered a bear, you just wasted one of the main features of a class. If you took Favored Enemy (Animals) and ran across a boar, you'd get the bonuses.

Besides, Rangers are people of the wilderness. They are experts in the wilds. I'm sure they WOULD know the weak spots on most -if not all- animals.

And 6 Hit Dice of Animal and a +2 level adjustment are a balance. 6 "Levels" of animal is really a substandard option compared to say six levels of fighter or ranger, so that is a part of the balance. The other part comes from the +2 level adjustment.

Actually, I find Lycanthropes underpowered in most campaigns, and players dislike playing them. The animal levels really hurt in the skills department, and the bonuses it grants are mediocre at best. They point out it is like playing an expert without the skills.
outintheweeds
04-19-06, 08:30 PM First off I like the idea of a were-mountain lion/leopard

I think you have one too many feats.
Your Hit points rounded up really well.
I calculate your armor class in elf mode as 24
For challenge rating I come up with 13 = 7 ranger + 3 Leopard +3 natural Lycanthrope.

I do not know if this is a PC or NPC but what happens to all of that cool magic stuff you carry when you change. I would hate to leave it laying around.

Have you thought of how this guy fights. You are neglecting scent, and lowlight vision from the lycanthrope and Improved Grap, Pounce and Rake from the base animal.

With the low light vision, and Iron Will from the lycanthrope I don't think the elves abilities of resisting sleep (Will save based) and vision are a good enough benifit given the loss of strength. To make a really tough character I would have stayed Human.

Perhaps a rouge or monk would have been a better choice for class.

I would have gone with feat that help natural attacks Such as improved natural attack, stunning fist, or dodge.

I would dump the armor as you have to get it off to change. a loss of time.

A Lycanthrope is not necessarily evil so I don't see a problem with an animal companion. You would have to work it in with a good storyline.

I am a bit puzzled by your choice of animals as a favored enemy. I would have expected a more neutral alignment.

Giving this guy some sort of history may be helpful in developing his style.

Thanks for submitting. I have been working on a Nymph Monk Were-wolf. I think I will change her to a Were-Leapard we shall see if that makes her even a tougher B.
Turlis
04-19-06, 09:15 PM My PCs came across this guy in our adventure this week. His alignment is lawful neutral, he sees himself as sort of a "protector of the mountains". They never actually fought him. When he comes across someone he thinks would make a valuable asset to his band, he "invites" them to join him. My 10th level group ended up fighting 15 1st lvl human warrior/were-mountain lions, and when they started beating them (with some VERY wisely chosen spells), my ranger called off the fight, and invited them to sit with him as equals.

He didn't do any fighting himself, because he didn't want to pass lycanthropy to anyone "unworthy".

I chose animals as favored enemy because he is a hunter. He has to feed his band, and animals are the best food source around. As to the argument that animals is too broad, read in Masters of the Wild about recommended favored enemies. It says "animals" is a great choice, since there are animals of almost any CR since you include dire animals.

I probably will dump his armor. If he does any fighting, it's in hybrid form, anyway. And I gave him the feat Multi-Attack to help when he fights in anmal or hybrid form.

You guys are great, thanks for so much help on this.

For you math geniuses, are my stats correct? Did I add the right numbers? I want to make him a recurring NPC, so I want him to be as accurate as possible.
JiCi
04-19-06, 09:19 PM Thanks for submitting. I have been working on a Nymph Monk Were-wolf. I think I will change her to a Were-Leapard we shall see if that makes her even a tougher B.Although the idea is good, you cannot apply the lycanthrope template to fey creatures.

As for the mountain lion, something is missing about the hybrid form. Ever since the "Polymorph Errata" event, the lycanthrope's alternate form has been alter a bit (no pun interded). From what I understood with the errata, you must delete everything conserning the "armor getting shred to pieces when changing form". The improvement is that each and every piece of equipment (weapon and armor included) literally grow with you to accommodate your new size in hybrid form, which is also considered human-shaped. In other words, if you're a werebear wielding a greatsword in full plate armor, well in hybrid form, your armor grow to Large, and your greatsword grow alos to Large and deals more damage.

Upon transforming into animal form, however, any equipment that cannot normally fit into non-humanoid shaped creatures fall on the ground, intact, without a scratch (assuming they don't fall into lava or acid) and unattended.

So for your hybrid form, you can keep any armor worn in elf form, but not in animal form.
outintheweeds
04-20-06, 09:57 AM Thank you for pointing out my inconsistancy with the rules. I understood when I created her. She fits my story this way.

My Nymph Lycantrhope is an NPC. I generally allow more licence to NPCs to make them more interesting. This is truly a curse to this NPC named Hitomi. She has abandoned the woods where she was attacked and taken up residence on the outsirts of a human city. She has taken up the strict life as a monk in hopes of controlling her afliction. She is sensai to two other low level monk NPCs, who are important to the story. Her interaction with the party is limited as she gives information and wooden stakes to the party to guide them in the rescue of one of her students.

Given her high challenge rating I have to have tight reign on her.

I am disapointed in the interpretation of armor changing with transformation. One of the cool thing with Were-beast literature is the loss of clothing along with memory. It looks like I will have to hold a house rule to maintain the old understanding of Armor and transformation.
Rohano
04-20-06, 06:45 PM Lycanthropes are cool when used sparingly. If you see more than one in a campaign, it gets old quick, though.

I DM more than I play, currently, and I once had an NPC human paladin (a grizzled old vigilante for urban justice) who had contracted lycanthropy before getting Divine Health. Werelion Paladin for the win.

I've also done a lot of work to create new lycanthropes. There's a link to an entire thread full of new lycanthropes (plus a lot of my custom-built lycanthropes) in my signature. You'll notice weredragon bolded.
Aurune
04-21-06, 06:19 PM Honesty what is the outcome of two afflicted lycanthropes of two diffrent base animals (say werebear and weretiger) having an offspring? would be a mix of the two, or one or the other?

Just thought a thread about lycanthropes was a good place to ask.
ClementWillowbreaker
04-21-06, 07:33 PM Eberron's/MM3's Shifter covers lycanthropic mutts like that pretty well, and in a PC-friendly (no racial HD and no LA) race.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Turlis 04-17-06, 01:28 AM	Does anyone know of any threads or online literature that gives advice on creating lycanthropes? I've followed the guidelines in the Monster Manual to create some were-mountain lions, but I just want to see if I've done it correctly. I'd also like to see other peoples ideas for new lycanthropes.
pileobone 04-17-06, 01:05 PM	Post the stats you came up with and we can check em' to make sure you got em' correct.
Turlis 04-17-06, 03:39 PM	Ok, here's the stat blocks in elven, animal and hybrid form. I worry that he's overpowered. He's a 7th level elf ranger / were-mountain lion. I want him to be really tough, so I gave him great ability scores. For everything else I tried to just follow what the MM instructions were. Here he is in human, animal, and hybrid form. He's a natural lycanthrope. I ran into problems trying to reconcile two-weapon fighting and improved two-weapon fighting as a hybrid that also has primary and secondary natural attacks and multi-attack as a feat. I also took liberties with the bracers of armor and ring of protection and let him use them in any form. Also, I think I modified the ability scores correctly for the different forms using Leopard from the MM as the base animal, and I used his dexterity modifier instead of strength on all his attacks, since he has weapon finesse and the natural weapons are considered light weapons. If there are any questions on how I got certain numbers, I can provide a breakdown on all of them. I have no idea how to calculate DC, however. Any ideas? Elven Form HD 7d8 + 7 plus 3d8 +12 (HP 72) Speed 30 ft. AC 22 (+4 +1 studded leather armor, +4 dex, +2 nat armor, +2 ring of prot +2) Saves: Fort +9, Reflex +12, Will +8 Abilities: Str 14, Dex 19, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 12 BAB/Grapple: +9 / +11 Attack: +1 Keen Rapier +14/+9 melee (1d6+3), crit 15-20/x2 Full Attack: +1 Keen Rapier +14/+9 melee (1d6+3), crit 15-20/x2 and +2 Frost Dagger +13/+8 melee or ranged (1d4+4 plus 1d6 cold), crit x3 OR Masterwork Longbow +14/+9 ranged (1d8), crit x3 Skills: Balance +12, Climb +10, Hide +23, Jump +10, Listen +16, Move Sil. +23, Search +13, Spot +19, Survival +12 Feats/Class/Racial Skills: Elven Traits, Immune to sleep and sleep effects, +2 to listen, search and spot, Low-Light Vision, 1st favored enemy - animals, 2nd favored enemy - magical beasts, Track, Wild Empathy, Combat Style - Two Weapon Fighting, Endurance, Animal Companion, Woodland Stride, Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative, Stealthy, Multi-Attack, Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Iron Will Animal Form HD 7d8 + 7 plus 3d8 +12 (HP 72) Speed 40 ft. AC 24 (+2 bracers of armor, +7 dex, +3 nat armor, +2 ring of prot +2) Saves: Fort +12, Reflex +15, Will +8 Abilities: Str 20, Dex 25, Con 19, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 12 BAB/Grapple: +9 / +14 Attack: Bite +20/+15 melee (1d6+5), crit x2 Full Attack: Bite +20/+15 melee (1d6+5), crit x2; and 2 claws +18/+13 (1d3+5), crit x2 Skills: Balance +15, Climb +13, Hide +26, Jump +13, Listen +16, Move Sil. +26, Search +13, Spot +19, Survival +12 Feats/Class/Racial Skills: Damage Reduction 10/silver, Curse of Lycanthropy, Elven Traits, Immune to sleep and sleep effects, +2 to listen, search and spot, Low-Light Vision, 1st favored enemy - animals, 2nd favored enemy - magical beasts, Track, Wild Empathy, Combat Style - Two Weapon Fighting, Endurance, Animal Companion, Woodland Stride, Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative, Stealthy, Multi-Attack, Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Iron Will Hybrid Form HD 7d8 + 7 plus 3d8 +12 (HP 72) Speed 40 ft. AC 24 (+2 bracers of armor, +7 dex, +3 nat armor, +2 ring of prot +2) Saves: Fort +12, Reflex +15, Will +8 Abilities: Str 20, Dex 25, Con 19, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 12 BAB/Grapple: +9 / +14 Attack: Bite +16/+11 melee (1d6+5), crit x2 OR +1 Keen Rapier +17/+12 melee (1d6+6), crit 15-20/x2 Full Attack: 2 claws +16/+11 (1d3+5), crit x2 and Bite +14/+9 melee (1d6+5), crit x2; OR +1 Keen Rapier +15/+10 melee (1d6+6), crit 15-20/x2 and +2 Frost Dagger +13/+9 melee or ranged (1d4+7 plus 1d6 cold dmg.) OR Masterwork Longbow +17 ranged (1d8), crit x3 Skills: Balance +15, Climb +13, Hide +26, Jump +13, Listen +16, Move Sil. +26, Search +13, Spot +19, Survival +12 Feats/Class/Racial Skills: Damage Reduction 10/silver, Curse of Lycanthropy, Elven Traits, Immune to sleep and sleep effects, +2 to listen, search and spot, Low-Light Vision, 1st favored enemy - animals, 2nd favored enemy - magical beasts, Track, Wild Empathy, Combat Style - Two Weapon Fighting, Endurance, Animal Companion, Woodland Stride, Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative, Stealthy, Multi-Attack, Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Iron Will
Koji 04-17-06, 04:57 PM	I've been thinking about dire lycanthropes--doesn't this seem kind of stupid to anyone else? Why be a werewolf when you can be a DIRE werewolf? I choose to limit dire forms to giants and regular forms to humanoids, but is there any meaningful way to divide it by hit die rather than by type?
Lard_Rent_Hensley 04-17-06, 07:09 PM	Hi, If you take Lycanthropy to be a transmissable disease, that causes the DNA to warp of the victim, then TBH there is not really any limit. I freaked one of my new players (a little unfairly) by turning him in to a were-spider ( I used an Ettercap for ECL stats etc). Were - Horse; Were - badger; wolverine; "Mold (puddings etc)"; the options are endless. I took it that one of my "research" NPC Evil Wizard was experimenting a way to make Lycanthropy more spreadable, and came up with a potent mix. However as DM I regard Lycanthropy AS A CURSE, not just an excuse for a character to have some cool moves. The first transformations will be completely out of the control of the "host" and at best they will have nightmare memories of what they have done in the Lycanthrope form (which will have some carry over bonuses / penalties to their "host" form). As they begin to understand what is happening, a fight goes on for control of the alternate form, with no guarantee that it will be successful. If they are successful and get control then being able to shift form on demand can be quite cool and very rewarding, but the journey to that control should be a challenge in it's own right. (For one thing it should raise the ECL of the character, unless he loses control, then he becomes an NPC). There was a "wolfman" mag in the 70s (Marvel??) that demonstrated the war between the Host and the Wolf very well. Cheers
Lard_Rent_Hensley 04-17-06, 07:21 PM	You've listed down as having an animal companion. Traditionally most natural animals will not associate with Were - beings as they sense the un-natural taint in the blood. NOT having a companion will help balance up this character. Also, I apologise if I'm making a mistake here, but 1st favoured enemy as "animals" seems (a) to vague - what you have the whole of the Animal Kingdom as your enemy? (b) I don't think you've given your alignment, Unless one of the "evil" alignments then you are meant to be protecting (natural) animals, not declaring them your enemy. Same for "magical beasts" - too vague, there's hundreds of them.
Koji 04-17-06, 07:40 PM	(a) to vague - what you have the whole of the Animal Kingdom as your enemy? (b) I don't think you've given your alignment, Unless one of the "evil" alignments then you are meant to be protecting (natural) animals, not declaring them your enemy. Same for "magical beasts" - too vague, there's hundreds of them. Hundreds of thousands, but that's how the ability works.
Lard_Rent_Hensley 04-17-06, 11:07 PM	Hmm. I have not got the books here at work, but I'm fairly certain that it is NOT the way it works. Just because you can track a giraffe and know how to kill it, does not mean you could do the same to an armadillo, yet this is what you are implying. If there has been a change to allow this, then someone has made a huge **** up. "animals" would also cover birds and fish, no way. (not being personal) cheers
ClementWillowbreaker 04-18-06, 05:43 PM	It's always been that way. Favored Enemy is against a Type of creature. It says so right in the PHB. There are also no alignment restrictions on choosing them. There are also no restrictions on animal companions for being lycanthropes. In fact, you get +4 to dealing with animals of your animal form. As for Dire Lycanthropes, those are allowed. The "werewolf lord" in the MM is a Dire Wolf. The only restriction is that the animal form must be within one size category of the base creature (so Giants would have a wider selection of Dire versions of normally Large animals).
Gothenem 04-18-06, 07:11 PM	All quotes from the SRD. At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature from among those given on Table: Ranger Favored Enemies. The ranger gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against creatures of this type. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures. Animal is on the list. That means you get the bonus against all creatures of the animal type. Same with Magical Beasts. The only types it requires you to specify with is Humanoid and Outsider: If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table. If a specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy, the ranger’s bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is higher. While you can make a house rule narrowing the options Favored Enemy: Giraffe is too limited to make a good class feature. I suppose if you ignored types and went for general shapes it might not be that bad. For example Favored Enemy (Equine Beings) Would cover Horses, Centaurs, Pegasai, Unicorns, and Nightmares. That may not be too bad.
Lard_Rent_Hensley 04-18-06, 08:24 PM	I didn't have the books with me, but I always took it that you had to at least specify a body shape. I know this is fantasy, but "animals" is just tooooo wide a category. I have honestly never tried it, but I would imagine the skills needed to hunt a lion (animal carnivore) are much different to hunting a zebra (animal herbivore) to catching a trout (fish - still an animal). Unfortunately I tend to go on more than just the Handbooks, which is where I think the Lycanthrope "taint" preventing a natural animal companion should come in. Animals are not just "props". I just thought it was a way of balancing this character up (down)
ClementWillowbreaker 04-18-06, 09:39 PM	Lycanthropes are balanced by their Level Adjustment and animal Hit Dice, all of which retard power growth. They don't need random rulings against them. Especially for those Lawful Good werebears. Considering how often "animals" are the enemy in the typical DnD game, it is entirely balanced to have them all group. We aren't playing, "Life of the Massai" in which lion hunting and cow herding both represent significant daily challenges. Nor are we actually hunting them most of the time. We are going into caves, and occasionally finding bears, or killing druids that happen to have animals all around them.
Lard_Rent_Hensley 04-19-06, 12:55 AM	Er to your first point, have you READ those stats? And it still does not negate my point about animals disliking the Lycanthrope taint. To your 2nd point, what are you trying to say? I'm saying declaring the entire Animal Kingdom as your Favoured Enemy and you get your bonuses against EVERY living thing (whether your character could reasonably have run in to them before) is way overpowered. You are pointing out that "we just encounter the odd animal" which surely implies that you cannot have built up any experience with that particular animal, which re-enforces my objection. I wasn't even particularily bothered about it, but insisting that a Ranger can treat a badger; a wombat and a guppy all the same; whether or not he has ever encountered them before just because "they are animals" is silly.
Gothenem 04-19-06, 07:09 PM	It is not against the entire animal kingdom (which includes humans). Only to creatures with the Type "Animal" as listed in the Monster Manual, which includes all the animals in Appendix 1, plus the Bat swarm, Rat swarm, dire animals and dinosaurs. It does not inlcude things like Magical beasts, Vermin, Humanoids, etc. Even if they would be in the Animal Kingdom (Otherwise known as the Kingdom of Animalia). If you want to house rule that you have to specify, go ahead. I won't play a ranger in your game though. It is not a benefit if favored enemy can't be used at least a few times. If you took Favored Enemy (Bears) and never encountered a bear, you just wasted one of the main features of a class. If you took Favored Enemy (Animals) and ran across a boar, you'd get the bonuses. Besides, Rangers are people of the wilderness. They are experts in the wilds. I'm sure they WOULD know the weak spots on most -if not all- animals. And 6 Hit Dice of Animal and a +2 level adjustment are a balance. 6 "Levels" of animal is really a substandard option compared to say six levels of fighter or ranger, so that is a part of the balance. The other part comes from the +2 level adjustment. Actually, I find Lycanthropes underpowered in most campaigns, and players dislike playing them. The animal levels really hurt in the skills department, and the bonuses it grants are mediocre at best. They point out it is like playing an expert without the skills.
outintheweeds 04-19-06, 08:30 PM	First off I like the idea of a were-mountain lion/leopard I think you have one too many feats. Your Hit points rounded up really well. I calculate your armor class in elf mode as 24 For challenge rating I come up with 13 = 7 ranger + 3 Leopard +3 natural Lycanthrope. I do not know if this is a PC or NPC but what happens to all of that cool magic stuff you carry when you change. I would hate to leave it laying around. Have you thought of how this guy fights. You are neglecting scent, and lowlight vision from the lycanthrope and Improved Grap, Pounce and Rake from the base animal. With the low light vision, and Iron Will from the lycanthrope I don't think the elves abilities of resisting sleep (Will save based) and vision are a good enough benifit given the loss of strength. To make a really tough character I would have stayed Human. Perhaps a rouge or monk would have been a better choice for class. I would have gone with feat that help natural attacks Such as improved natural attack, stunning fist, or dodge. I would dump the armor as you have to get it off to change. a loss of time. A Lycanthrope is not necessarily evil so I don't see a problem with an animal companion. You would have to work it in with a good storyline. I am a bit puzzled by your choice of animals as a favored enemy. I would have expected a more neutral alignment. Giving this guy some sort of history may be helpful in developing his style. Thanks for submitting. I have been working on a Nymph Monk Were-wolf. I think I will change her to a Were-Leapard we shall see if that makes her even a tougher B.
Turlis 04-19-06, 09:15 PM	My PCs came across this guy in our adventure this week. His alignment is lawful neutral, he sees himself as sort of a "protector of the mountains". They never actually fought him. When he comes across someone he thinks would make a valuable asset to his band, he "invites" them to join him. My 10th level group ended up fighting 15 1st lvl human warrior/were-mountain lions, and when they started beating them (with some VERY wisely chosen spells), my ranger called off the fight, and invited them to sit with him as equals. He didn't do any fighting himself, because he didn't want to pass lycanthropy to anyone "unworthy". I chose animals as favored enemy because he is a hunter. He has to feed his band, and animals are the best food source around. As to the argument that animals is too broad, read in Masters of the Wild about recommended favored enemies. It says "animals" is a great choice, since there are animals of almost any CR since you include dire animals. I probably will dump his armor. If he does any fighting, it's in hybrid form, anyway. And I gave him the feat Multi-Attack to help when he fights in anmal or hybrid form. You guys are great, thanks for so much help on this. For you math geniuses, are my stats correct? Did I add the right numbers? I want to make him a recurring NPC, so I want him to be as accurate as possible.
JiCi 04-19-06, 09:19 PM	Thanks for submitting. I have been working on a Nymph Monk Were-wolf. I think I will change her to a Were-Leapard we shall see if that makes her even a tougher B.Although the idea is good, you cannot apply the lycanthrope template to fey creatures. As for the mountain lion, something is missing about the hybrid form. Ever since the "Polymorph Errata" event, the lycanthrope's alternate form has been alter a bit (no pun interded). From what I understood with the errata, you must delete everything conserning the "armor getting shred to pieces when changing form". The improvement is that each and every piece of equipment (weapon and armor included) literally grow with you to accommodate your new size in hybrid form, which is also considered human-shaped. In other words, if you're a werebear wielding a greatsword in full plate armor, well in hybrid form, your armor grow to Large, and your greatsword grow alos to Large and deals more damage. Upon transforming into animal form, however, any equipment that cannot normally fit into non-humanoid shaped creatures fall on the ground, intact, without a scratch (assuming they don't fall into lava or acid) and unattended. So for your hybrid form, you can keep any armor worn in elf form, but not in animal form.
outintheweeds 04-20-06, 09:57 AM	Thank you for pointing out my inconsistancy with the rules. I understood when I created her. She fits my story this way. My Nymph Lycantrhope is an NPC. I generally allow more licence to NPCs to make them more interesting. This is truly a curse to this NPC named Hitomi. She has abandoned the woods where she was attacked and taken up residence on the outsirts of a human city. She has taken up the strict life as a monk in hopes of controlling her afliction. She is sensai to two other low level monk NPCs, who are important to the story. Her interaction with the party is limited as she gives information and wooden stakes to the party to guide them in the rescue of one of her students. Given her high challenge rating I have to have tight reign on her. I am disapointed in the interpretation of armor changing with transformation. One of the cool thing with Were-beast literature is the loss of clothing along with memory. It looks like I will have to hold a house rule to maintain the old understanding of Armor and transformation.
Rohano 04-20-06, 06:45 PM	Lycanthropes are cool when used sparingly. If you see more than one in a campaign, it gets old quick, though. I DM more than I play, currently, and I once had an NPC human paladin (a grizzled old vigilante for urban justice) who had contracted lycanthropy before getting Divine Health. Werelion Paladin for the win. I've also done a lot of work to create new lycanthropes. There's a link to an entire thread full of new lycanthropes (plus a lot of my custom-built lycanthropes) in my signature. You'll notice weredragon bolded.
Aurune 04-21-06, 06:19 PM	Honesty what is the outcome of two afflicted lycanthropes of two diffrent base animals (say werebear and weretiger) having an offspring? would be a mix of the two, or one or the other? Just thought a thread about lycanthropes was a good place to ask.
ClementWillowbreaker 04-21-06, 07:33 PM	Eberron's/MM3's Shifter covers lycanthropic mutts like that pretty well, and in a PC-friendly (no racial HD and no LA) race.