Creation of undead and souls [Archive] - Wizards Community

Creation of undead and souls [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tridiak
03-09-06, 12:17 AM When an undead is created via Create Undead spell (and others), does the soul go away or does it transform as well?
Zombies & Skeletions don't have souls.
Ghosts are souls.
What about the ones inbetween, such as shadows, ghouls, spectres, etc?
Return of the Flumph
03-09-06, 01:55 AM Its a matter of your campaign and cosmology; I've known DMs who did both things. Here's my personal advice:

Zombies/Skeletons. According to the Vodun mythology they are based on, zombies are completely souless, being animated by a spark of mystical energy a priest has implanted in them. The person's soul is unaffected (high above the mucky-muck, they don't even know their bodies are being animated). In effect, the corpse is being controlled by a mindless, rudimentary "artificial soul" of negative energy created by the necromancer.

"Stupid" Undead. Ghouls, Ghasts, Shadows, Wraiths, Weights, Mummies, etc. are dead souls trapped in their once-living bodies either as punishment for their crimes in life or do to fell magical curses. Because of the nature of their entrapment, these souls have only a few traces of their former memories and their behavior is drastically altered by their undead state. Destroy their rotting forms to release the maddened spirit within, allowing them to acheive their final resting places!

Vampires. In my homebrew campaign, vampires are actually demons from the abyss who can possess the bodies of certain mortals. The pact is something like this; the demon helps the mortal get something done in life, and, once the mortal dies, the demon gets to use his or her old body to walk the Prime Material as a vampire. When a vampire drains the blood of another mortal, it can call another fiend to inhabit the corpse without needing any sort of agreement with the body's previous owner. Thus, the soul of the person isn't trapped or affected by the vampire's existance.

The Damned. Some undead, including ghosts, liches, and many "smart" creatures, are mortal souls who became undead of their own accord. Some are motivated by fear of death and lust for immortal power, and acheive undeath via the arcane arts. Others died with such determination to an unfinished cause burning in their souls that they couldn't let themselves go on to final judgement until they finish their business on the Prime Material. They usually keep most (if not all) of their memories and personality traits, although centuries of undeath can drive them insane eventually. Some examples of the Damned:

Ghosts. Ghosts have a single, specific goal or mission that they cannot (or maybe will not) quit this world until they have accomplished.

Liches. A lich's soul lives in the same body it always did, the only difference is that it's metabolism relies on negative energy to function. As any gamer knows, liches are self-made through occult experimentation.

Morghs. Ah, my personal favorite. A human soul so overcome with hatred, jealousy, and bitterness toward the rest of the world that it's desire to kill overcomes its natural urge to leave the Prime Material. The great thing about these guys is that even after they kill the people they wanted revenge on, they still keep killing at random until someone puts them down.

Allips. An odd one; these are sort of a cross between Stupid Undead and the Damned, so they get their own category. This soul is so insane, it doesn't know its dead. Allips still have all their memories, but they are so introverted that they can't apply them to the world around them. They just reach out desperately to nearby minds, hoping for help, not realizing that they are only hurting other people.
Shemeska the Marauder
03-09-06, 02:22 AM When an undead is created via Create Undead spell (and others), does the soul go away or does it transform as well?
Zombies & Skeletions don't have souls.
Ghosts are souls.
What about the ones inbetween, such as shadows, ghouls, spectres, etc?

Pretty much by default, unless you're houseruling it to fit some setting specific thing, intelligent undead have souls (or are souls in some form or another if they lack a corporeal body).
tridiak
03-10-06, 11:41 PM Its a matter of your campaign and cosmology; I've known DMs who did both things. Here's my personal advice:

Zombies/Skeletons. According to the Vodun mythology they are based on, zombies are completely souless, being animated by a spark of mystical energy a priest has implanted in them. The person's soul is unaffected (high above the mucky-muck, they don't even know their bodies are being animated). In effect, the corpse is being controlled by a mindless, rudimentary "artificial soul" of negative energy created by the necromancer.

"Stupid" Undead. Ghouls, Ghasts, Shadows, Wraiths, Weights, Mummies, etc. are dead souls trapped in their once-living bodies either as punishment for their crimes in life or do to fell magical curses. Because of the nature of their entrapment, these souls have only a few traces of their former memories and their behavior is drastically altered by their undead state. Destroy their rotting forms to release the maddened spirit within, allowing them to acheive their final resting places!

Vampires. In my homebrew campaign, vampires are actually demons from the abyss who can possess the bodies of certain mortals. The pact is something like this; the demon helps the mortal get something done in life, and, once the mortal dies, the demon gets to use his or her old body to walk the Prime Material as a vampire. When a vampire drains the blood of another mortal, it can call another fiend to inhabit the corpse without needing any sort of agreement with the body's previous owner. Thus, the soul of the person isn't trapped or affected by the vampire's existance.

The Damned. Some undead, including ghosts, liches, and many "smart" creatures, are mortal souls who became undead of their own accord. Some are motivated by fear of death and lust for immortal power, and acheive undeath via the arcane arts. Others died with such determination to an unfinished cause burning in their souls that they couldn't let themselves go on to final judgement until they finish their business on the Prime Material. They usually keep most (if not all) of their memories and personality traits, although centuries of undeath can drive them insane eventually. Some examples of the Damned:

Ghosts. Ghosts have a single, specific goal or mission that they cannot (or maybe will not) quit this world until they have accomplished.

Liches. A lich's soul lives in the same body it always did, the only difference is that it's metabolism relies on negative energy to function. As any gamer knows, liches are self-made through occult experimentation.

Morghs. Ah, my personal favorite. A human soul so overcome with hatred, jealousy, and bitterness toward the rest of the world that it's desire to kill overcomes its natural urge to leave the Prime Material. The great thing about these guys is that even after they kill the people they wanted revenge on, they still keep killing at random until someone puts them down.

Allips. An odd one; these are sort of a cross between Stupid Undead and the Damned, so they get their own category. This soul is so insane, it doesn't know its dead. Allips still have all their memories, but they are so introverted that they can't apply them to the world around them. They just reach out desperately to nearby minds, hoping for help, not realizing that they are only hurting other people.

One question : Create Undead family only requires a corpse. Since souls can't be recalled forcibly (usually), where do the spirits for the newly created undead come from?

Something related : if someone has a clone active and they get converted into undead, will the clone spell succeed or fail?
Sarlax
03-11-06, 01:11 AM The rules are silent, but we might be able to figure some things out from the core books.

You can't be Raised if your corpse is or was once undead. You can't be Resurrected (truly or not) if you're currently undead. This could mean a number of different things. Here are some options.

Soultheft: When your corpse is made into an undead creature, your soul is the binding element that makes the animation possible. In effect, animate dead and similar spells actual force your soul to be forever bound in a corpse. This is what makes undeath an inherently evil condition (for those who think that way). Only the destruction of the corpse frees the soul.

Taint: When a corpse is animated, negative energy floods the body. Because the soul of the creature is conditioned for living beings, it can't return to the body. The negative energy actual wards the soul away when a Raise Dead spell is attempted. Resurrection, however, is strong enough to cleanse the negative energy taint from a once-animated corpse. The spell suggests this in, "The condition of the remains is not a factor."

Variation: an undead may or may not possess the soul of the once-living creature. It varies by type. Skeletons and zombies are fueled only by mindless negative energy. Advanced entities like liches and vampires have their original souls, but these have been mutilated by negative energy. Intelligent undead like ghasts and wights may hold memories of the living but lack true souls, instead possessing quasi-souls made up of concentrated negative energy (or even negative-infused incarnum).

Polysoul: Living creatures actually possess several kinds of souls. The more potent and intelligent the undead, the more spectres retain the base and the raw emotional soul. Liches retain the base, lose the emotional, and retain the intellectual.
Vaalingrade Ashland
03-11-06, 02:02 AM One question : Create Undead family only requires a corpse. Since souls can't be recalled forcibly (usually), where do the spirits for the newly created undead come from?
That's the rub with Create Undead. Most of the undead you can create are noted in the MM as being created by specific events that trigger thier transformation.

Basically, the create undead spell makes creatues with the abilities and apperance of those creatures, but they're still just facsimilies.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tridiak 03-09-06, 12:17 AM	When an undead is created via Create Undead spell (and others), does the soul go away or does it transform as well? Zombies & Skeletions don't have souls. Ghosts are souls. What about the ones inbetween, such as shadows, ghouls, spectres, etc?
Return of the Flumph 03-09-06, 01:55 AM	Its a matter of your campaign and cosmology; I've known DMs who did both things. Here's my personal advice: Zombies/Skeletons. According to the Vodun mythology they are based on, zombies are completely souless, being animated by a spark of mystical energy a priest has implanted in them. The person's soul is unaffected (high above the mucky-muck, they don't even know their bodies are being animated). In effect, the corpse is being controlled by a mindless, rudimentary "artificial soul" of negative energy created by the necromancer. "Stupid" Undead. Ghouls, Ghasts, Shadows, Wraiths, Weights, Mummies, etc. are dead souls trapped in their once-living bodies either as punishment for their crimes in life or do to fell magical curses. Because of the nature of their entrapment, these souls have only a few traces of their former memories and their behavior is drastically altered by their undead state. Destroy their rotting forms to release the maddened spirit within, allowing them to acheive their final resting places! Vampires. In my homebrew campaign, vampires are actually demons from the abyss who can possess the bodies of certain mortals. The pact is something like this; the demon helps the mortal get something done in life, and, once the mortal dies, the demon gets to use his or her old body to walk the Prime Material as a vampire. When a vampire drains the blood of another mortal, it can call another fiend to inhabit the corpse without needing any sort of agreement with the body's previous owner. Thus, the soul of the person isn't trapped or affected by the vampire's existance. The Damned. Some undead, including ghosts, liches, and many "smart" creatures, are mortal souls who became undead of their own accord. Some are motivated by fear of death and lust for immortal power, and acheive undeath via the arcane arts. Others died with such determination to an unfinished cause burning in their souls that they couldn't let themselves go on to final judgement until they finish their business on the Prime Material. They usually keep most (if not all) of their memories and personality traits, although centuries of undeath can drive them insane eventually. Some examples of the Damned: Ghosts. Ghosts have a single, specific goal or mission that they cannot (or maybe will not) quit this world until they have accomplished. Liches. A lich's soul lives in the same body it always did, the only difference is that it's metabolism relies on negative energy to function. As any gamer knows, liches are self-made through occult experimentation. Morghs. Ah, my personal favorite. A human soul so overcome with hatred, jealousy, and bitterness toward the rest of the world that it's desire to kill overcomes its natural urge to leave the Prime Material. The great thing about these guys is that even after they kill the people they wanted revenge on, they still keep killing at random until someone puts them down. Allips. An odd one; these are sort of a cross between Stupid Undead and the Damned, so they get their own category. This soul is so insane, it doesn't know its dead. Allips still have all their memories, but they are so introverted that they can't apply them to the world around them. They just reach out desperately to nearby minds, hoping for help, not realizing that they are only hurting other people.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-09-06, 02:22 AM	When an undead is created via Create Undead spell (and others), does the soul go away or does it transform as well? Zombies & Skeletions don't have souls. Ghosts are souls. What about the ones inbetween, such as shadows, ghouls, spectres, etc? Pretty much by default, unless you're houseruling it to fit some setting specific thing, intelligent undead have souls (or are souls in some form or another if they lack a corporeal body).
tridiak 03-10-06, 11:41 PM	Its a matter of your campaign and cosmology; I've known DMs who did both things. Here's my personal advice: Zombies/Skeletons. According to the Vodun mythology they are based on, zombies are completely souless, being animated by a spark of mystical energy a priest has implanted in them. The person's soul is unaffected (high above the mucky-muck, they don't even know their bodies are being animated). In effect, the corpse is being controlled by a mindless, rudimentary "artificial soul" of negative energy created by the necromancer. "Stupid" Undead. Ghouls, Ghasts, Shadows, Wraiths, Weights, Mummies, etc. are dead souls trapped in their once-living bodies either as punishment for their crimes in life or do to fell magical curses. Because of the nature of their entrapment, these souls have only a few traces of their former memories and their behavior is drastically altered by their undead state. Destroy their rotting forms to release the maddened spirit within, allowing them to acheive their final resting places! Vampires. In my homebrew campaign, vampires are actually demons from the abyss who can possess the bodies of certain mortals. The pact is something like this; the demon helps the mortal get something done in life, and, once the mortal dies, the demon gets to use his or her old body to walk the Prime Material as a vampire. When a vampire drains the blood of another mortal, it can call another fiend to inhabit the corpse without needing any sort of agreement with the body's previous owner. Thus, the soul of the person isn't trapped or affected by the vampire's existance. The Damned. Some undead, including ghosts, liches, and many "smart" creatures, are mortal souls who became undead of their own accord. Some are motivated by fear of death and lust for immortal power, and acheive undeath via the arcane arts. Others died with such determination to an unfinished cause burning in their souls that they couldn't let themselves go on to final judgement until they finish their business on the Prime Material. They usually keep most (if not all) of their memories and personality traits, although centuries of undeath can drive them insane eventually. Some examples of the Damned: Ghosts. Ghosts have a single, specific goal or mission that they cannot (or maybe will not) quit this world until they have accomplished. Liches. A lich's soul lives in the same body it always did, the only difference is that it's metabolism relies on negative energy to function. As any gamer knows, liches are self-made through occult experimentation. Morghs. Ah, my personal favorite. A human soul so overcome with hatred, jealousy, and bitterness toward the rest of the world that it's desire to kill overcomes its natural urge to leave the Prime Material. The great thing about these guys is that even after they kill the people they wanted revenge on, they still keep killing at random until someone puts them down. Allips. An odd one; these are sort of a cross between Stupid Undead and the Damned, so they get their own category. This soul is so insane, it doesn't know its dead. Allips still have all their memories, but they are so introverted that they can't apply them to the world around them. They just reach out desperately to nearby minds, hoping for help, not realizing that they are only hurting other people. One question : Create Undead family only requires a corpse. Since souls can't be recalled forcibly (usually), where do the spirits for the newly created undead come from? Something related : if someone has a clone active and they get converted into undead, will the clone spell succeed or fail?
Sarlax 03-11-06, 01:11 AM	The rules are silent, but we might be able to figure some things out from the core books. You can't be Raised if your corpse is or was once undead. You can't be Resurrected (truly or not) if you're currently undead. This could mean a number of different things. Here are some options. Soultheft: When your corpse is made into an undead creature, your soul is the binding element that makes the animation possible. In effect, animate dead and similar spells actual force your soul to be forever bound in a corpse. This is what makes undeath an inherently evil condition (for those who think that way). Only the destruction of the corpse frees the soul. Taint: When a corpse is animated, negative energy floods the body. Because the soul of the creature is conditioned for living beings, it can't return to the body. The negative energy actual wards the soul away when a Raise Dead spell is attempted. Resurrection, however, is strong enough to cleanse the negative energy taint from a once-animated corpse. The spell suggests this in, "The condition of the remains is not a factor." Variation: an undead may or may not possess the soul of the once-living creature. It varies by type. Skeletons and zombies are fueled only by mindless negative energy. Advanced entities like liches and vampires have their original souls, but these have been mutilated by negative energy. Intelligent undead like ghasts and wights may hold memories of the living but lack true souls, instead possessing quasi-souls made up of concentrated negative energy (or even negative-infused incarnum). Polysoul: Living creatures actually possess several kinds of souls. The more potent and intelligent the undead, the more spectres retain the base and the raw emotional soul. Liches retain the base, lose the emotional, and retain the intellectual.
Vaalingrade Ashland 03-11-06, 02:02 AM	One question : Create Undead family only requires a corpse. Since souls can't be recalled forcibly (usually), where do the spirits for the newly created undead come from? That's the rub with Create Undead. Most of the undead you can create are noted in the MM as being created by specific events that trigger thier transformation. Basically, the create undead spell makes creatues with the abilities and apperance of those creatures, but they're still just facsimilies.