Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hamelin 01-04-06, 01:25 AM	Alright, In my current campaign, I have a wizard who plans on TRYING to abuse the undead. Obviously skeletons and zombies are a cake-walk, as I have complete control over them to begin with. Now, my problem comes with the undead who have intelligence scores and/or aren't under my control. For example, the wizard recently took the Mother Cyst feat featured in the libris mortis... does anybody have some good ideas on how to control those things I can make with the spells granted by the feat? Not necessarily DIRECTLY control, but just ways of making use of them with little or no risk to me/my party?
Tempest Stormwind 01-04-06, 01:33 AM	What sort of abuse are you looking for? You can do PLENTY with the right feats and enough skeletons. Or perhaps you hadn't heard, for instance, of Algernon and Eustace (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5442072&postcount=18)? Also known as the Undead's Answer to the Balor Bomb?
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-04-06, 01:36 AM	Undead do not need to breath. Cram them in a bag of holding, then punch it inside out at the start of combat for a 'suprise, zombies!' opening move. Keeping them stored in this way, you can use them as trap springers, decoys or door jams.
OmiKapSi 01-04-06, 03:09 AM	Here's a method for abusing it for travel purposes, allowing you to get an effective speed of 360 for a day of overland travel (You'll arrive a bit later than anticipated, but you'll be just as rested). Bind an intelligent undead spirit to a cart, with the ability to direct four skeletal horses who will pull it. A skeletal light warhorse has a carrying capacity of 230 lbs (light), and a base speed of 50 feet. Four of them therefore can pull 920 pounds in a cart, plenty enough for an average adventuring party. The intelligent spirit just needs to be smart enough to accept a command as follows: "Direct the horses so they follow the road, alert me if we come to an intersection." Int 6 would be plenty for this. Normal travel times assume 8 hours of travel. The average human, using this system, can travel up to 24 miles. With a speed of 60 feet, the horses can cover up to 48 miles. Since they don't need to sleep, skeletal horses can cover up to three times that distance, travelling through the night, directed by the spirit, for a total of 144 miles. This can be increased by having the horses 'hustle', a form of movement normally limited to local movement, since it deals nonlethal damage. The skeletal horses are immune to this, and can therefore 'hustle' indefinitely, doubling their speed. Now we're up to 288 miles in a 24 hour period. One could even argue that the skeletal horses could run indefinitely, doubling their speed again, bringing them up to 576 miles in a 24 hour period, but this might be a bit dangerous, since turning would be a problem. 288 miles in an 8 hour period would be the equivalent of 36 miles per hour, the equivalent of travelling 8 hours with a base speed of 360. All this, without even the necessity of staying awake or moving. A properly set up cart could allow a character the benefits of complete bed rest on top of this.
Bizzlethorp_the_Tormentor 01-04-06, 06:03 AM	Throw in some bone claws, Entropic reapers, makes undead really frightful the first time you encounter them. Libris Mortis is a good source for some nice undead mobs.
Hamelin 01-04-06, 10:22 AM	Alright... I'm really liking these ideas (especially the Algernon and Eustace one). 1 quick question about bags of holding, so turning them inside out releases the things within correct? Just need to check that for my new little cyst friends. Then again, I could try to just turn my party and I into undead (find some RP excuse for level dipping into one of the undead classes?) thereby negating the blood sucking bit. But I am definately going to screw around with those toads.
Koga:The ninja trick 01-04-06, 02:33 PM	Cattle, zombies make great steeds in large groups.. Ehh.. someone to open the damn pickle jar.. Makes a great way to flirt with a girl when you command your zombies to stand outside a girl's window and sing "Loving you (is easy cause you're beautiful)" and have an Allip do the high notes.. Eh, never really thought about besides that.. Undead are fodder what can The Koga say..
Dave Stebbins 01-04-06, 07:37 PM	Since skeletons (and all undead) are immune to poison, they make a great place to grow your own cultures of yellow mold. Even if they are killed in one blow or destroyed by the cleric that makes the mold explode in a poisonous cloud, as yellow mold is wont to do... -Dave
Ivar the terrible 01-04-06, 09:54 PM	I think using them as trapfinders, and glory devices is the best role for undead, as well as for fighting a delaying action.
ronyon 01-05-06, 02:53 AM	Algernon and Eustace-sooper cool man! OmiKapSi, nice work. Somewhere I have an expanded over land travel chart that I made for exactly such uses. I tend to like multi-use undead, so I suggest humanform skeletons carrying a palaquin. This also allows for all-terrain travel,where as a cart probably needs a road. I tend to use undead as "grenadiers",by giving them oil and acid to throw. I follow up with a flaming arrow, and burnation occures. A tiny humenoid undead is a useful thing for reloading ones crossbow, holding lamps/torches,spare weapons etc. Use Chain of Eyes with an undead, and you got darkvision for hours. An undead horse is portable cover. Hide Sheilds/Tower Sheilds can make a Skeleton or Zombi more durable, and they allso can block turning. Besides, they are easily recovered from fallen Undead minions, so as to equip the "new recruits". Charging Zombi bats can adsorb AoOs for your charging fighter types. If the target doesnt take the bait, use the bats he let into his square to Aid Another your fighter types. The crawling cyste can be used with the Chain of Eyes spell, as an decent scout. They have some good movement modes, and they are tiny, and therfor hard to Spot. What level are you? I ask because the best Minion Making spell in the Mother Cyst line is the level 7 Necrotic Tumor, which makes permanent,living slaves. 4th level Necotic Domination is a close runner up, but it mus be renewed Use either on Planar Binding victems.
ubernex 01-05-06, 03:12 AM	I tend to use undead as "grenadiers",by giving them oil and acid to throw. That's funny, I tend to use undead as "grenades," by packing them with oil and acid :) Works really well in conjunction with fire-vulnerable undead. You just know someone is going to torch the mummy. Why not pack it full of something that will make it a memerable experience for all involved.
scienceman47 01-05-06, 04:32 AM	I dont think undead horses can hustle, as nothing that lacks a metabolism can run or even jog. Im not sure if a hustle qualifies as a run or run like action.
Sosthenes 01-05-06, 07:06 AM	Only zombies are restricted in their movement, "metabolism" is not a concept of the D&D rules. As long as you can take a double movement in combat, you can hustle...
OmiKapSi 01-05-06, 12:16 PM	An expensive but useful option would be an animated giant constrictor snake. These buggers have improved grab, constrict and a grapple of +20 (the skeleton version has a lower BAB than the original +23). 825 gold, for what acts as a better version of a rope of entanglement (although it takes up a bit more space on the battlefield). For additional giggles, coat it in a cheap poison. Also, if you have a druid in the party, have him cast spike stones. Skeletons resist up to 5 points of the piercing damage damage the spell applies, giving them a better than 50% chance to avoid it altogether. Having the snake continously move the grapple over the spikes allows him to add an additional 4d8 damage on top of its constrict damage (1d8+10) with minimal risk to itself. Finally, if there is a rogue in the party, a pinned individual is denied their dexterity (for sneak attacking) and has -4 AC (for those that dual wield).
Hamelin 01-05-06, 01:59 PM	I'm currently level 9, shouldn't be too long before i hit 13 and get the tumor. Now, the problem with the little cyst guys is that I don't control them... or do i? The ideas are great though, keep em coming!
metamind 01-05-06, 03:58 PM	play a skeleton's ribs as a xylophone (probably misspelled) rip off thier limbs and rearange them to look wierd and such As for the ones that are smart, kill them, use revive undead, kill them again, ect :D
Jodjod 01-05-06, 04:06 PM	-Humanoid pyramid. (has this already been said?) -Skittles. -Footstools (gnomes & halflings) -Waiters (fix limbs in a tray-holding position, command to go back & forth...)
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 01-05-06, 05:02 PM	Well, skeletons can be folded for easy storage.
malignor 01-05-06, 05:29 PM	I played in a game where one PC was a necromancer with Craft - Taxedermist... all his undead looked like they were still alive. Personally, my wizard just wrapped them in black leather (armor), and with white theatrical masks, then he named them (names like "blood-weeper", "night dancer" and other eyebrow raising names) and cut off their hands & replaced them with sickles. He was also an Oozemaster, so he infected them all with brown & yellow mold... made them that much more dangerous in close quarters. The result was a gang of white-masked, creepy, silent, black leather bound, sickle-handed freaks that infected nearby foes with toxic mold. Ahhhh memories
General_Ridley 01-05-06, 07:30 PM	for controlling skulking cysts, better off as a dread Necromancer. you can rebuke those. by the time you get some of the more potent cyst spells, you'll have enough levels to Command them permanently with rebukes.
scienceman47 01-06-06, 04:11 AM	Never be alone in a conga line! Zombie sandwitches Chair? Thats all I got.
Slagger the Chuul 01-06-06, 10:34 AM	Chair? That's not as silly as it first sounds. A necromancer with plenty of skeletons around could easily have them arrange themselves in whatever pose is convenient at the time, and it adds a nice creepy atmosphere to the necromancer's environment.
Kyuketsukiouji 01-06-06, 10:55 AM	And if your dinner guests prove too rude, having their own furniture strart grappling them is always a good way to start a fight.
Bonzai 01-06-06, 02:33 PM	Here are some things I have done. I came up with my own version of Algernon and Eustace. My Pale master (read componentless animate), would aften animate a bunch of rats. When some one would attack, he would swarm them, then fireball the whole mess if he wanted to end it quick. Often he didn't have to as the silly cleric tried to Turn/destroy them.. Lots of fun! Awaken Undead is a lot of fun. Every self respecting Necromancer needs an undead valet. What is also fun is that Awaken restores any extrordinary abilities (Ex) they once had. Want to have some fun and make some warriors cry? Animate a herd of rust monsters and awaken them! Does it get more evil than that? I think not! Dragon zombies in Draconomicon (sp?) break the rules in several ways. They have no max hd limit, they have a breath weapon, and they can fly. Awaken them and you have a stylish mount. Craft Wonderous Items is the best crafting feat for a Necromancer. Not only does it make nifty things like Ion Stones, but it is also used for spell stiching. Spell stiching lets you imbue undead with limit spell like abilities based on their Wisdom score. It also gives them improved turn resistance and spell resistance. I had a stitched flesh bat familiar that I spell stiched. It could Cast Negative energy ray 3 times per day, Web and darkness 2 times a day, Fireball, vampiric touch, and summon undead 1 once per day. This made my familiar into a greater asset. He could heal up my undead, he could attack, heal himself, and if he ever needed a pair of hands or something carried he could summon a skeleton to do the work. Similacrum is an awsome spell, and doubly awsome for Necromancers. Your copies have the same abilites you did at their level. If you were able to summon undead, then they will too, and it's a nice safe way to raise an army. Controlling intelligent undead is a weak spot for arcane casters. They have very few means of controlling them for any real durration. You can cast Command undead, which is really a charm spell, or cast Control undead, but it has a real short duration. An animated mythral buckler of Undead control is a favorite piece of gear. It will at least get you a full day of complete control. However there is one spell that lets you controll intelligent undead permanently as an arcane caster. The spell is ghoul gauntlet (lm). Anyone slain by it becomes a ghoul under your control (control limit is 2hd X CL, animate limit is 4hd x Cl). If you use the ghoul template from LM (I don't think there is any other), then they lose one lvl, and gain a lvl of ghoul. Think about that a second.... What an awsome way to get some killer minions. Slay a rogue, and you have your own pocket trap finder. Slay a wizard, and you got a minion who can possibly summon more minions.... Take it a step further. Before you kill them, supe them up with something like the graft flesh feat. The grafts have to be applied while they are living, but are treated as magic items, so should still work when you turn them into ghouls. Natural armor, +str arms, eye rays, etc.. Be sure they are killed in a desecrated/unhallowed area for maximum benefit. Then spell stich them for good measure. You now have some mighty fine minions at your disposal. Ah, but you are shelling out some cash and exp for top of the line ghouls, and eventually some are gonna be killed. The good news is that it's possible to recoup your investment. Revive undead can bring them back, and can be made contingent. Incedently, you can do this for yourself if you are an undead. Every lich should have a contingency to trigger 3 weeks after their destroyed. Even if their phylactery is gone, they can be brought back. Lastly, lets talk about the Mother Cyst Feat. It is a very powerful ability. Consider this. You, the Necromancer, have been harassed by the local baron. They baron is well guarded and stays in the protection of his castle. You decide you want him gone, and if possible, don't want to take the rap. You send your cat familiar into the local pub, and have it rub up against the leg of the Barons minister. It serves as the touch attack needed to implant the cyst, and possibilities open up. First you can scry on him, see what he and the king are planing. Then if you are high enough, you can take over his mind and have him try and kill the baron while his guard is down. If it works everyone blames the ambitious minister. If it fails, you can try and suicide bomb him, and if the baron lives he still has to deal with the cyst. That is a lot from one feat. Have fun!
Prak, the Mad 01-06-06, 04:44 PM	I played in a game where one PC was a necromancer with Craft - Taxedermist... all his undead looked like they were still alive. Personally, my wizard just wrapped them in black leather (armor), and with white theatrical masks, then he named them (names like "blood-weeper", "night dancer" and other eyebrow raising names) and cut off their hands & replaced them with sickles. He was also an Oozemaster, so he infected them all with brown & yellow mold... made them that much more dangerous in close quarters. The result was a gang of white-masked, creepy, silent, black leather bound, sickle-handed freaks that infected nearby foes with toxic mold. Ahhhh memories I'm sorry, but "yoink!"(if I may, please) That's not as silly as it first sounds. A necromancer with plenty of skeletons around could easily have them arrange themselves in whatever pose is convenient at the time, and it adds a nice creepy atmosphere to the necromancer's environment. plus, if the adventurers didn't see the necromancer arranging the skeletons, it just looks like a throne of bones, until he gets up and it attacks them...
scienceman47 01-07-06, 01:02 AM	In the new castlevania game the soul of the "bone ark" allows you to summon two skeleton minions who carry you around on a bone pillar chair. Any self respecting high level necromancer uses undead for transportation. Bigger the better.