Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wotc_Mark 02-28-06, 04:28 PM	Creature Competition: Dragons Selecting the Talent Vote Now! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20060221x) ======================================== ==== Week 1 (06/27/2006 - 07/04/2006) Gan the Rusty: Pseudodragon Wizard As a little hatchling, Gan was small, even for a pseudodragon. His wings were crumpled, his body was weak, his stinger was small. However, Gan was smart. He was a good deal smarter than every other pseudodragon in his massive extended family. Thus, Gan soon found himself eligible for a scholarship to the Mordenkainen Magical University. Once there, he buried himself in his studies, but for a few rather crazy nights out. Unfortunately, no one would offer the prodigiously bright pseudodragon a job, so Gan undertook standard dragon activities: lair, hoard, princess-capturing, etc.; with his illusions and transmutations, he took the appearance of a massive red dragon (Gan is too nice to really hurt people, but still enjoys gold, princesses, and playing the role of a villain to the hilt). --The Amazing Dancing Bear VS Yarzasi-Korin: Spellwarped Rust Dragon Hatched upon the iron battlefields of Acheron, Yarzasi-Korin's first taste of metal was an enchanted blade. From that first meal of magic, the rust dragon came to disdain all mundane ore. As he has grown in power, his hunger for magic has become so great that he craves it above all else. Yarzasi-Korin seeks only the choicest items and most sumptuous magical flavors to satisfy his palate. To this end, he battles the greatest spellcasters amongst Acheron's endless wars, challenging opponents of any species or allegiance to a test of mystic mettle. To his delight, he finds the arrogance of his fellow wyrms more than capable of providing an unintended feast... -- Slagger the Chuul ======================================== ========= MJ
speeblefreak 02-28-06, 08:19 PM	Cthez-ngthu: Bah! This will not be the end of it!
Zevox 02-28-06, 11:33 PM	Meh. So the Pseudodragon turned out to be one I'm not fond of - surprise surprise. Oh well. This week I'm a little biased (*cough*), but I voted for Aryntaranasara. A Dracolich Sorceress - how can you not like a classic like that ;) ? Zevox
Dark Kyosuke 02-28-06, 11:45 PM	So, when are we going to get to the "oddballs" category? I mean, I know I'm the only one who suggested a Stone Drake, but... (Of course, if there's a Stone Drake category, I therefore WIN and go on to the tournament! :plotting: ... Where I will die a horrible death at the hands of that CR 99 monstrosity... :raincloud )
speeblefreak 02-28-06, 11:59 PM	I hope we get to the "unaltered dagons" or "landwyrms" category soon. Rakhnesstorix will CLEAN UP. :dragon:
Tallow 03-01-06, 06:30 PM	Ack! I forgot to post info on my dragon. I wonder if I could go back and edit the dragon entry I have so that he actually has a story, and if WotC guys would actually see it/use it.
Iron Klaw Merc 03-01-06, 06:34 PM	I would have to say my favorite is Daer'Shalindrel, I've always had a soft spot for black dragons. Hope Daer'Shalindrel goes far. :)
Morka 03-01-06, 08:49 PM	I think the winner shall be Arilasadetonima, the Silver Dragon Dracolich. The other ones are all more or less power angry evil dragons, who commited the worse evil imaginable for the sake of power. Arilasadetonima's only wish is to protect her subjects. Rather original! :cheer:
Solarious 03-03-06, 01:26 AM	Any Dracolich with the sense to set their phylactery inside the dephs of magma surrounded by brutal fire-based monsters and iron golems gets my vote. That it has his prosthetic heart and is made out of scales is a plus.
sherretz 03-03-06, 07:24 AM	Any way we can get stats/info on these guys? They'd make great antagonists in a campaign; and I'm planning on starting one soon. I'm still mulling over my choice; SO MANY GOOD ONES!!
Werebat 03-05-06, 04:01 PM	I would have to say my favorite is Daer'Shalindrel, I've always had a soft spot for black dragons. Hope Daer'Shalindrel goes far. :) Ah, I too voted for Daercy. Felt a pang of guilt about not having posted my own black dragon idea. I *did* get to posting old Ssark, though. Hope he at least makes it to the vote. If fang dragons get their own category (doubt it), he's got like a 50/50 shot at making the tourney I think. - Ron ^*^
TRCEttin 03-06-06, 08:19 PM	So, when are we going to get to the "oddballs" category? I mean, I know I'm the only one who suggested a Stone Drake, but... (Of course, if there's a Stone Drake category, I therefore WIN and go on to the tournament! :plotting: ... Where I will die a horrible death at the hands of that CR 99 monstrosity... :raincloud ) And then Rahb eats the CR 99 creature and flies away, leaving no winner to the contest. Hooray! Seriously though, I'm just glad my idea was apparently good enough to possibly make it in. It's like a big sign that says "Your ideas are not crap!".
RavinRay 03-07-06, 04:12 AM	Any way we can get stats/info on these guys? Mark encouraged the creators of those voted through to give them stats, so maybe they've been PM'ed to write those up. But even those who don't make it to the final round (shades of AI anyone?) can still have their stats written up; just ask their creators. So, when are we going to get to the "oddballs" category? So far Mark's been giving out the categories on a weekly basis, and while he mentioned brass dragons, he didn't specify whether this week's category would be strictly brass dragons, metallic dragons, CG dragons, or whatever. We don't even know if this competition will have 16 finalists, or retain the format of the previous one. Just gotta wait and see I guess. I hope that the lesser dragons aren't all lumped together, as there's a world of difference between elemental drakes, landwyrms, wurms, and what-have-you. And would the competition be flexible enough to include dragon-blooded monsters with say, the half-dragon template?
Sadrin Thunderclaw 03-07-06, 04:18 PM	having posted 9 differant dragons, some good, most evil, i have to wonder...will any of them get picked? Korraganitar my first creation is one of the potential shadow dragons...YAY just the fact that it might make it is nice. and at least my other favorite shadow dragon made it to (nightfall's setsuna). still....even if korrag gets in he will probobly end up losing to krede. oh well
Wotc_Mark 03-07-06, 04:20 PM	The D&D producer, Bart, went over the piles of Dragons that were posted in the other thread and when he was done he had several categories where he just couldn't pick a dragon for the competition. So we thought it would be fun for everyone to help us narrow it down with these pre competition polls. We did choose some of our favorites already for the bracket and won't be doing polls for every category. The final competition bracket will be like the first creature competition with weekly pairings. MJ :cool:
Raven Dark 03-07-06, 04:46 PM	NO!!! I forgot to vote on my very own Carbuncle! No!!! :weep: Mark, the link to the dracolich section keeps taking me to the Pseudodragon section. What's up with that? I want to vote on my other creation if I still can!
Hedstrong 03-07-06, 04:53 PM	Ok that makes sence Mark. For the longest time i was a bit disapointed that even with a month you guys couldnt pick out competetors. Do you have a number of categories we'll be voting on pre comp? Sorta get a feel for the competetions start.
Zevox 03-07-06, 07:04 PM	We did choose some of our favorites already for the bracket and won't be doing polls for every category. Oh? Interesting. Then maybe I can still hope my favorite submission, Illenthranatar, got in despite not being in the Shadow Dragon voting :) . Anyway, I'm kinda disappointed Aryntaranasara didn't make it through, but since she was only my 3rd favorite of the 4 I submitted I suppose I'm okay with it. Certainly the Dracolich that did get through was one of the better choices (IMO). This week I went with Secthorastrix, though picking between him and Shintarraskain was tough. Congrats to Nightfall, Lord of Shadow for the two great ideas that got into the voting :cool: . Zevox
Uratoh 03-07-06, 08:54 PM	My entry won't make it I doubt...he wasnt exactly a real dragon. half-fiend lizardman tyrant type fellow, but he sure convinced a lot of people he was one. You gonna argue when the 12 foot tall black scaled monstrosity with huge wings says he;s a black dragon?
speeblefreak 03-07-06, 09:06 PM	: I didn't make it in? Ah, well. I suppose I might be an entrant in the "quirky dragons" block. Being present is not required, is it?
TheLastOfTheFallen 03-08-06, 01:26 AM	Koth made it! w00tness and rapture! I hope he gets the votes needed to take him to the next round. :D
Morka 03-08-06, 08:45 AM	Well, I knew the Silver Dracolich would win. Those who wanted an uber-evil dracolich divided their votes; the silver one was the only "tragic" dracolich. :cool: TheLastOfTheFallen, I'm voting for Koth. My main reason is I would really like to see the stats of such a beasty! I wonder if there will be an half-dragon selection, and if Antinua, my own submission, will be part of it? :evillaugh
Ront Iron-Roar 03-08-06, 11:18 PM	I voted for Koth as well. Just wondering if I could add more info to my Burning Wyrm~sighs~ More or less I didn't get to state how his attacks work. More or less picture a Red Dragon under the effects of a Sear Spell feat for his Breath Weapon. In addition, he had heat auras and etc. More or less based it off the Furnace Dragon in the Mirrodin series. Or was it Forge Dragon? Basically, he can burn anything.
Iron Klaw Merc 03-11-06, 07:06 PM	Well, I knew the Silver Dracolich would win. Those who wanted an uber-evil dracolich divided their votes; the silver one was the only "tragic" dracolich. Well I guess you could call it "tragic" I would think the word silly a bit more reasonable term, but sure tragic works.
Nightfall, Lord of Shadow 03-11-06, 09:54 PM	Oh? Interesting. Then maybe I can still hope my favorite submission, Illenthranatar, got in despite not being in the Shadow Dragon voting :) . Anyway, I'm kinda disappointed Aryntaranasara didn't make it through, but since she was only my 3rd favorite of the 4 I submitted I suppose I'm okay with it. Certainly the Dracolich that did get through was one of the better choices (IMO). This week I went with Secthorastrix, though picking between him and Shintarraskain was tough. Congrats to Nightfall, Lord of Shadow for the two great ideas that got into the voting :cool: . Zevox Thank you for the kind words, Zevox. And frankly, I was stunned to find two of my entries in this week's vote. I'm honored, and here's to a great competition. *raises his soda and toasts*
Lucent 03-14-06, 01:31 AM	Curses, Sjach'hurach was foiled again--At least this time it wasn't by those pesky templar of the silver flame :D Gotta say, the image of the insectile vampiric shadow dragon is pretty intense though. Sjach would be proud.
speeblefreak 03-14-06, 06:08 PM	Ha! Two of my little mind progeny are up for the vote, though Berylimentum was apparently submitted by "spebblefreak." :rolleye2: Oh, which to support?
Helian 03-15-06, 05:52 PM	Well Speeblefreak, my better judgement tells me I should vote for "weak" opponents since Caululithrax gained entry to the competition, but, I voted for Berylimuntem anyways! I'd love to play a Green Star Adept PC one day, but my DM in a hardass... yeah I'm talking about you Olostar LOL just kidding...... don't off my Character.......please.....
Arcticflare 03-15-06, 09:20 PM	Man, I'm regretting limiting myself to one dragon. A mere bloodscaled fury at that. . . . I was afraid of annoying the powers that be. I should of taken speeblefreak's and Sadrin's strategy of "Okay, I put in 200 dragons, one of them has to make it!"
Helian 03-15-06, 10:29 PM	I myself entered 2, a Ying Yang sorta thing. One evil, the shadow dragon, and one good, Korosagra the kensai/monk Mountain Landwyrm. I too was worried when I saw the multitudes that some were posting, but I managed to get one in, so don't give up just yet! Still more catagories left to vote on, so, chin up laddy! Quality not quantity someone told me once......
speeblefreak 03-15-06, 10:43 PM	Man, I'm regretting limiting myself to one dragon. A mere bloodscaled fury at that. . . . I was afraid of annoying the powers that be. I should of taken speeblefreak's and Sadrin's strategy of "Okay, I put in 20 dragons, one of them has to make it!" Don't knock it just yet, laddie. Oh, wait, you're not knocking it. Well...don't start knocking it!
The_Newborn 03-16-06, 03:08 AM	So long as the "Chessmaster" doesn't win I'm fine with what ever wins. I like the flavour of Radiance and the shrouded legend though.
Helian 03-16-06, 07:17 AM	So long as the "Chessmaster" doesn't win I'm fine with what ever wins. Well, I thought the way TheyCallMeTomu joined the two dragons was quite impressive. On the downside however, the "Mighty Villian" controlling the fate of others by means of the chessboard has been done to death. This contest is essesntially about the dragon, and Chessmaster the dragon is really quite unique and would be a daunting opponent. However, the story is what I feel gains votes. Now I dont mean to slag TheyCallMeTomu, I'd love to have the build for that dragon to use in a campaign, the dragon itself is awesome, I just couldn't support another "Chessmaster"
The_Newborn 03-16-06, 06:54 PM	Well, I thought the way TheyCallMeTomu joined the two dragons was quite impressive. On the downside however, the "Mighty Villian" controlling the fate of others by means of the chessboard has been done to death. This contest is essesntially about the dragon, and Chessmaster the dragon is really quite unique and would be a daunting opponent. However, the story is what I feel gains votes. Now I dont mean to slag TheyCallMeTomu, I'd love to have the build for that dragon to use in a campaign, the dragon itself is awesome, I just couldn't support another "Chessmaster" I don't deny that the idea is great and well done, a little exessive, but I like it. In terms of flavour, yeah chess has been done to death. I'd like to think that a different game (than chess) would have evolved in a similar way that three dragon ante has (in place of poker/blackjack/etc). My only beef is that the category is "gemstone dragons". Despite having psionic abilities it is not in any way a gemstone dragon. If an Illithid had the half dragon template (any MM dragon) it would not be a gemstone dragon. Why is it even in this category?
Arcticflare 03-16-06, 07:44 PM	I actually voted for the Chessmaster. I was really impressed for some reason. You say the concept has been beaten to death? I agree. But that doesn't mean it isn't cool.
Watchdog_of_Hades 03-16-06, 08:01 PM	Is there another category coming up for, "dragons that have the lich template, not the dracolich template?" Or, "dracoliches who are several notches on the awesomeness scale above the others?" I'm just asking because Tholomeliastraz could clean the other dracoliches' water clock time keeping thingies while missing his sternum, most of his vertabrae, both patellas, his left metacarpals, and his maxilla. Or maybe it's just that any WotC employees that looked at page 15 were blinded by his sheer coolness. Yeah, that's the most likely explanation.
Arcticflare 03-16-06, 08:16 PM	Is there another category coming up for, "dragons that have the lich template, not the dracolich template?" Or, "dracoliches who are several notches on the awesomeness scale above the others?" I'm just asking because Tholomeliastraz could clean the other dracoliches' water clock time keeping thingies while missing his sternum, most of his vertabrae, both patellas, his left metacarpals, and his maxilla. Or maybe it's just that any WotC employees that looked at page 15 were blinded by his sheer coolness. Yeah, that's the most likely explanation. Yeah. The explanation that the normal lich template can only be applied to humanoids can't be it, right?
Helian 03-16-06, 11:40 PM	My only beef is that the category is "gemstone dragons". Despite having psionic abilities it is not in any way a gemstone dragon. If an Illithid had the half dragon template (any MM dragon) it would not be a gemstone dragon. Why is it even in this category? LOL, thanks for pointing that out. I didn't even clue in to that..... I wonder why they put Chessmaster in that catagory????? Strange.
Watchdog_of_Hades 03-17-06, 12:59 PM	Yeah. The explanation that the normal lich template can only be applied to humanoids can't be it, right? What's the antecedent of your pronoun, "it?" And anyway, that leaves the "too cool" option and the "blinding coolness" option.
Arcticflare 03-17-06, 08:17 PM	What's the antecedent of your pronoun, "it?" And anyway, that leaves the "too cool" option and the "blinding coolness" option. The antecedent is "explanation". I had quoted one of your posts, in which one could see that "most likely explanation" was the last phrase. Therefore, you could assume that "explanation" was the noun I was referring to. But then, "you'd make an ass out of you and me". Never mind.
Iron Klaw Merc 03-18-06, 03:29 PM	I actually voted for the Chessmaster. I was really impressed for some reason. You say the concept has been beaten to death? I agree. But that doesn't mean it isn't cool. Yeah I think Chessmaster is cool as well, but in order for the mainstream people on this board to back it, it would have to be a little sillier, like the fussion of a good and evil dragon who had fallen in love, and now anyone who stumbles on there lair must be able to convince the two personalities that they should show mercy and let them go. Because they will only kill or release the intruders if the two personalities can agree on a course of action.
Watchdog_of_Hades 03-18-06, 03:42 PM	Arcticflare, you're confusing me. I agree with "Never mind."
Zevox 03-18-06, 07:02 PM	I went with Radiance, because I'm a sucker for a good guy and her story was one of the best written in there. As for Chessmaster, I stopped reading after the mention of its lair being on a gigantic chessboard. Sorry, but thats a little too much on the cartoony side for me (and I like cartoons). Zevox
Nemorium 03-18-06, 07:15 PM	Mark, I didn't get to finish Justriel's backstory. At the beginning of time, there was a terrible evil that went unnamed. The gods could not defeat it, and so instead they bound it in physical form. It called itself Baaltriel. The gods still had no hope against the entropic power of Baaltriel, so they petitioned demon lords, archdevils, and the Oinoloth for help. Their call was answered. The full host of heaven and hell rode out against Baaltriel, only to be turned back and defeated. The only way to stop him was to bind him inside the body of an innocent soul with the same body as Baaltriel's: a dragon. The gods then created a creature out of pure positive energy. His name, in counterbalance with Baaltriel, was Justriel. Justriel was a great golden wrym whose scales shone with the light of the sun. Justriel challeged Baaltriel, preparing to rend him limb from limb. Baaltriel trumped him in might and magic. Just as Baaltriel prepared to devour Justriel, light burst from his body, enveloping Baaltriel and trapping him within Justriel. Justriel absorbed a mite of Baaltriel's power and became an extremely powerful demigod. He created a plane of pure light for himself and pure positive energy worshippers for it. But Baaltriel's story is not over. It is prophesized He will return at the coming of the Black Sun. Stats for newly emerged Baaltriel: Half-fiend Red Dragon great wrym, Greater God, divine rank 20, Archmage 10, Epic sorcerer 20, Dracolexi 10.
Arcticflare 03-19-06, 10:48 AM	. . . Greater God, divine rank 10 . . . :censored: Edit: Oops. Just realized that that wasn't the Dragon you submitted. . . . don't I feel like a dire mule.
Nemorium 03-19-06, 02:56 PM	Articflare, this concept is intended for epic play, and your not even supposed to fight Baaltriel. Just hold him off long enough for Justriel to absorb him again. Of course, theres room for a plot twist in there :smirk:.
Zevox 03-19-06, 08:57 PM	Greater God, divine rank 10 Thats a bit of a contradiction. Divine Rank 10 is a Lesser God. Greater Gods are DvR 16-20. Zevox
Nemorium 03-20-06, 07:02 PM	Thanks, Zeev! Little new to the god-creating thing. This concept is intended for an extremely high-level campaign, but you could run Justriel as a patron-type NPC.
Watchdog_of_Hades 03-20-06, 09:44 PM	I know that this is a stupid thing to nitpick about, but it doesn't seem like a greater god with forty class levels could whip the other gods, the infinite hordes of the Abyss, the disciplined armies of the Archdukes, and Heaven's host. Maybe you should beef him up yet more.
Ront Iron-Roar 03-21-06, 01:20 PM	HUZZAH! The Chessmaster won. Of all the Gem dragons a non gem dragon won! ROFL! I actually voted for him too!
Hedstrong 03-21-06, 05:36 PM	All Right! Two of mine got in. Hmmm now which will i vote for? :thinks:
Nemorium 03-21-06, 05:40 PM	I know that this is a stupid thing to nitpick about, but it doesn't seem like a greater god with forty class levels could whip the other gods, the infinite hordes of the Abyss, the disciplined armies of the Archdukes, and Heaven's host. Maybe you should beef him up yet more. Keep in mind, this is the newly emerged Baaltriel stats. He getsMuch more powerful than this, once the conditions for his full power are met. The idea is to hold him off while in this state, and to let Justriel absorb him.
Werebat 03-21-06, 08:25 PM	HUZZAH! The Chessmaster won. Of all the Gem dragons a non gem dragon won! ROFL! I actually voted for him too! *Sigh* That's just... ridiculous. So next week we're moving on the the "core" dragons, which has me wondering if there will be any vote on fang dragons at all. Ssark? - Ron ^*^
Arcticflare 03-21-06, 08:46 PM	Fangs are some of my favorites. I once made a half-fang dragon lizardfolk barbarian. Nothing like draining Con for a race that already specializes in guerrilla tactics.
Zevox 03-21-06, 09:46 PM	*groans* Chessmaster won? Drat. Well, I now know the competition will feature at least one Dragon I won't vote for almost regardless of his opponent... This week we have several good contestants in my opinion. Apaciblespiritu, Lasserous, Loexirthosdanix are my favorites, but I don't think I'll be disappointed in any of them winning. Personally, I voted for Apaciblespiritu - again, because I'm a sucker for a good guy, and hes the only one of those in the bunch. :angel: Zevox
Hedstrong 03-21-06, 09:58 PM	Awesome, thanx for yur vote Zevox. I really can't say how excited I am to have one of my entries nominated let alone two.
Ront Iron-Roar 03-22-06, 06:48 AM	I'll be voting for the Mummified Desert Landwyrm. I enjoyed his story the most.
Morka 03-22-06, 09:16 AM	Looks like the next weeks will be about each of the True Dragons, and then the head-to-head tournament will start. So no half-dragons! :weep: :tissue: :rant: :surrender
Zevox 03-22-06, 01:49 PM	So no half-dragons! :weep: :tissue: :rant: :surrender Not necessarily. Remember they already have some picked out that won't be pre-voted on. One or two of those may be Half-Dragons. Zevox
speeblefreak 03-22-06, 04:50 PM	sniff...my poor submissions...so horribly mangled. :weep: Still not giving up hope on my landwyrm, dragon turtle, or pyro.
koboldlord 03-22-06, 04:57 PM	Wow... I got in... Teh w00tz0rs... Well, good luck to everyone else. I'm happy just getting this far, I mean... considering that this was chosen by Wizard's staff, and all... Vote for Xelogo!
RavinRay 03-23-06, 04:09 AM	Not necessarily. Remember they already have some picked out that won't be pre-voted on. One or two of those may be Half-Dragons. I'm happy just getting this far, I mean... considering that this was chosen by Wizard's staff, and all... Think of it as Draconic Idol, the audience votes for its favorites in each group to move into the Top 16 (I assume), while the judges put in their own wildcards. At least, this was the format before season 4 of AI. :D
The_Newborn 03-23-06, 07:54 PM	HUZZAH! The Chessmaster won. Of all the Gem dragons a non gem dragon won! ROFL! I actually voted for him too! Sigh indeed. I made a point of not voting for the . A good example of how democracy can fail. The masses are ignorant and week willed. The only thing they should be able to vote on is whether to have milk in their coffee and one lump of sugar or two! This weeks entries are quite good though and am having difficulty deciding. Go luck to all those who have entries this round.
Ront Iron-Roar 03-23-06, 08:04 PM	Sigh indeed. I made a point of not voting for the . A good example of how democracy can fail. The masses are ignorant and week willed. The only thing they should be able to vote on is whether to have milk in their coffee and one lump of sugar or two! This weeks entries are quite good though and am having difficulty deciding. Go luck to all those who have entries this round. I'm not weak willed. I just really didn't care for that selection. I didn't really care for the Dracoliches. I didn't really care for the Shadow either. Don't have much care for the list at the moment either. But, I voted. That's whay counted. The concept that an entry is stupid is a way of making it easier to select a entry you like when they get farther into the competition. Just hope my Burning Wyrm gets somewhere....
Orchomenos 03-24-06, 09:20 AM	"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell :confused: "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." Groucho Marx :P
Iron Klaw Merc 03-29-06, 11:42 AM	Cool two weeks in a row the dragon I was cheering for won, this week I had a little trouble deciding who to vote for, finally voted for Arakdhar: Mummified Black Dragon Swarm Shifter, I liked the history and the templates that were used, I think Arakdhar would be cool to build an adventure around. Good luck Arakdhar!
Kearif 03-29-06, 12:46 PM	I am yet uncertain if I was chosen for this competition, but chosen or not I shall be involved even if only by voting. I have just voted for Aluxulinurilian, “Blackfire”: Black Dragon Cleric. I just think it would be nice to see a good true dragon (but I'll settle for a neutral) just to balance out the alignments. Look at who's already won: Lasserous, “Beacon of the Fallen”: Grave Wyrm Dread Necromancer, Chessmaster: White Dragon Psion (Telepath)/ Black Dragon Psion (Egoist), Caululithrax: Vampiric Shadow Dragon Lifedrinker, Arilasadetonima: Silver Dragon Dracolich, and Gan the Rusty: Pseudodragon Wizard. All the true dragon winners are evil (Gan is a Pseudodragon, and not a true dragon, because a true dragons' power grows with age). While I'm here, what is a Grave Wyrm and what book did they come from?
speeblefreak 03-29-06, 02:35 PM	A gravewyrm is one of the two non-true dragons presented in the last Epic Insights. It's CR 45.
Hedstrong 03-29-06, 06:26 PM	:weep: Dang
Helian 03-29-06, 08:14 PM	Look at who's already won: Lasserous, “Beacon of the Fallen”: Grave Wyrm Dread Necromancer, Chessmaster: White Dragon Psion (Telepath)/ Black Dragon Psion (Egoist), Caululithrax: Vampiric Shadow Dragon Lifedrinker, Arilasadetonima: Silver Dragon Dracolich, and Gan the Rusty: Pseudodragon Wizard. All the true dragon winners are evil Although you are correct, it isn't so much that ppl are voting in evil dragons, it's moreso that they were most our choices. dracolichs = evil, shadow dragons = evil, ghostly/uncorpreal = evil (usually), ya got me on the gemstone dragon though, everyone voted in a evil non-gemstone in that catagory. Go figure.
vardock 03-30-06, 05:58 PM	I doubt my entry will be included, being so powerful It could take on all the other enteries at once, being Paragon great worm prismatic dragon warmage 21/vassal of bahamut 10. it's CR wes close to if not beyond 100.
Draz74 03-30-06, 09:44 PM	Man ... Erzynthrakus doesn't seem cool at all from the description paragraph they gave to him. :weep: It doesn't even make sense why he's called "The Pirate." ... Guess it's my fault for making his original description so long and story-like, instead of the compact description Wizards asked for. Anyway, for the record, anyone who reads this thread: pretend this is Captain Zyn's description paragraph: Erzynthrakus soon found that his quick wit and clever, adaptable mind served him well in the chaotic lifestyle of a pirate, and his natural abilities helped him acheive a lot of success. (It's easy to be a pirate when you can't drown and the older pirates are afraid of hazing you!) For 27 years, he swashbuckled about, growing into a Young Adult and amassing great wealth. Now he is the most famous pirate along the whole Azure Coast. Every fiber of his confused soul loves the life of a pirate - the rum, the sea itself, the wide variety of company, the thrill of battle, the amoral lifestyle (he never has to wonder, "Am I doing the right thing?"), and especially the masses of shiny objects. Due to the fact that many pirate crewmen are too stupid or lazy to pronounce dragon names, he has reluctantly adopted the title of "Captain Zyn."
Kearif 03-31-06, 02:14 PM	You're right Wizards did give your dragon poorly writen paragraph. It could easily be sumed up as "This dragon was kidnapped and twice and turned fiendish." At least the backstory you came up with was interresting. I still would have voted for Aluxulinurilian, because she's not evil, but it would have been close.
Watchdog_of_Hades 04-02-06, 08:40 PM	I doubt my entry will be included, being so powerful It could take on all the other enteries at once, being Paragon great worm prismatic dragon warmage 21/vassal of bahamut 10. it's CR wes close to if not beyond 100. Betcha it couldn't take on the awesome power of Rahb'adubdub or whatever. And, er, Alux is a she. It's hard to tell with dragon names.
Kearif 04-02-06, 08:58 PM	oops, i fixed it. thank you
Arhra 04-05-06, 10:43 PM	Wow, Iyaseth was chosen for the blue dragon selection. She was the only dragon I put in so I'm really, really happy about that. I thought I'd go with a touch of understatement, seeing the number of epic monstrousities that were being submitted. So I just tried something that would play to a blue's strengths. A young adult blue dragon with a little more magical power than normal. I liked the thought of a dragon that would be a bit less direct than normal, feinting with illusions to size foes up and make them expend their resources. She'd be a very memorable foe if handled right I think. So anyway, vote for Iyaseth!
Gothenem 04-06-06, 09:08 AM	I voted for Godom! That was the most interesting Blue Dragon story there. It really fit the Blue Dragon mentality. That said, I'm all in favor of good-aligned blue dragons, and Blue Dragons are my fav http://www.geocities.com/edymnionii/BlueSword.txt (with silvers and mercuries taking second and third respectively). Edit: 'Cause I can't spell
Iron Klaw Merc 04-06-06, 09:52 AM	Iyaseth got my vote, its an interesting dragon that could be dropped into any desert enviroment, I think it would pose a good threat to a party and be fun to play.
Kearif 04-06-06, 10:44 PM	ARG! two heads aren't better than one :banghead: :banghead: We can't Pick Mal'hayvinassis would a cool patron that in the end of the campaign the party would have to fight but, Silversheen is a good and their need to be some more, or rather some, good true dragons in the Competition. If i vote for Mal'hayvinassis, will some body please vote for Silversheen for me, if i could i'd vote for both. oh, and that reminds me, insectile dragon :yuck: that is just plain disgusting
therunningman 04-07-06, 06:40 AM	I know its a bit early, but i have an idea for a read dragon to put in the competition. Its a bit long, but if anyone has any suggestions to shorten it or any feedbak, ill gladly take it. Asthuriax: Very old male red dragon/channeled solar. Ever since he was born, the interested eyes of the heavens have vigilantly watched Asthuriax. This is because for unknown reasons, his soul was naturally good, and he treated his parents and his brothers and sisters with a kindness and love that did not exist among most red dragons. His parents viewed this goodness as a blatant sign of weakness, and punished him every time he acted in such a way. Eventually he gave up being good, and grew up, as a “normal” Red Dragon should. As he got older he set up a lair in the mountains and controlled a nearby town through fear, forcing the townspeople to donate gold and cattle to the dragon. Throughout his life, the eyes of heaven still watched him, praying that the dragon would turn back to good on its own will. Asthuriax’s life changed when a band of experienced adventures answered the pleas of the town and attacked the red dragon in its own lair. Asthuriax lost, and as he lay defeated he remembered the cruelty and suffering he had brought on others, and suffered from the guilt of his actions. Asthuriax begged the party for mercy, but they would not listen to his pleas. They would have killed the dragon if a group of solars from heaven had not come down to earth and intervened. They convinced the group not to slay Asthuriax, and gave the dragon a chance to repent for the sins of his long life. Asthuriax takes it, and allows one of the solars, through the help of a deity, to be permanently channeled into the dragon to act as a guiding conscience and a source of divine power. These past few years Asthuriax has tried to do good by donating large sums of his horde to the poor and performing heroic deeds for those in need, even though there are still many who don’t trust Asthuriax.
RavinRay 04-07-06, 09:20 AM	Um, the submission period ended in January, and the judges (I wonder who are the Randy, Paula and Simon of Draconic Idol, as ARDy is the Ryan Seacrest) have narrowed down the contestants into groups for the audience to get out and vote for. The only bios left here would be those of the semi-finalists to make their pitch for the audience to vote for them. Is this a belated April Fool's joke or just an honest but late submission?
Orchomenos 04-07-06, 09:45 AM	My vote goes to Ix'gazin Ubradar! We already have dracoliches and necromancer dragons, and the dragons with countless caster/manifester classes are bugging me. And this one is the only one with an explained name.
therunningman 04-07-06, 03:41 PM	that sux. It was worth a shot i gess
Shadowmehr 04-07-06, 07:21 PM	My thanks to the editors of this contest for accepting my submission. For all others in the upcoming battle, please remember: Knowledge is Power. Mal'hayvinassis will know of all the stories of his rivals, thier strengths, and thier weaknesses . It shall be most amusing to watch his rivals fall, one by one. (*sinister chuckle*)
Ront Iron-Roar 04-09-06, 03:18 AM	I voted for the Blue Dragon Illusionist well. I like the idea because it works on the entire Desert and Mirage theme. Just wondering if the Dragon uses the Illusionist variant from Unearthed or not? Not to mention what sort of familiar you think this Dragon would have? Maybe, a Imp disguised as a vulture perhaps? Or maybe, a Salt or Glass Mephit?
Tarkahn 04-09-06, 01:39 PM	Heh...I agree. The blue dragon illusionist does sound like an excellent contender. I've always appreciated illusionists, as they make the world far more interesting. Of course, Silversheen would probably just eat him or something. :D (What? Biased? Me? Never!)
Arhra 04-10-06, 10:41 PM	I'm not sure if I've seen the illusionist variant. It would probably be a good fit if you're using that option though. I hadn't given much thought to a familiar for her. Iyaseth was intended to be easy to drop into a setting and very modifiable so I really just put in the core of the idea. Still a mephit or that imp would be very appropriate.
Kearif 04-11-06, 06:43 PM	i have a hard time seeing a Dragon with a minor fiend for a familiar, isn't there something about one's soul being dragged down to the lower planes to suffer for the rest of time or something like that? I don't think a Dragon (esp a Lawful dragon) would willingly give up that much power. How about desert breed of shocker lizard, that would be suprising (which fits the dragon's fighting style) and kind of cool.
Ront Iron-Roar 04-11-06, 07:06 PM	What about an Ashworm perhaps? I'm sure the dragon's big enough for such a familiar?
Iron Klaw Merc 04-11-06, 08:25 PM	Okay we had are silliness with the Celestial Blue Dragon, now lets get a little more serious, and speaking of serious I would say Aragraftex, “The Grafter”: Pseudonatural Green Dragon Sorcerer/Fleshwarper will be a serious contender for this competition. Aragraftex would make an excellent BBEG in any game, so thats where my vote went.
Tarkahn 04-12-06, 01:03 AM	Bah! You say silly. I say GENIUS! Anywho, my vote for next dragon looks like it'll be Emperor Malstyg. It's a build that makes some sense and has a really good profile to go with. It was close though. My vote almost went to Lahamust, but according to its profile its dead. Can't very well fight if you're dead, can ya? PS. I know it doesn't explicitly say Lahamust died, but seriously...when's the last time you've seen devils use nonlethal damage?
Quicksilver 04-12-06, 02:21 AM	Why do people vote for evil things turned good? Amongst the dragons, I like to vote for those that take the dragon's nature and add templates, classes and backstories which work with it, not against it. Silversheen for the blue is an example. Why turn a Blue good? There are metallic dragons for that. It's not clever and the backstories are always so pedestrian. The illusionist and the dry mummy both followed the Blue's themes much better. Hopefully it won't happen twice in a row. People also seem to vote for the most powerful dragon on offer. I suppose everyone like the idea that their champion will win, and for that you need the strongest. My pick is Aragraftex, “The Grafter”: Pseudonatural Green Dragon Sorcerer/Fleshwarper. It follows the idea of green dragons in the forest, warping the growing things around them into twisted monstrosities. I hope that voters know about pseudonatural creatures so they can support it. I suspect that my ignorance of gemstone dragons led me to vote for Chessmaster. I think you vote for what you know.
Kearif 04-12-06, 06:24 PM	At last a Good true dragon now the paladins and good monks have some one to throw their vote behind. For me now it's all about the story so I voted for Emperor Malstyg. I've heard some people talking about the “The Grafter” and i for on eam not impressed. I'm running a Far Realm campaign, so don't anyone be saying that i don't know about pseudonaturals. folks, thier not that powerful. And i believe some one was talking about how he or she votes for dragons that fight the dragon breed's profile then saying that they were supporting “The Grafter” the, A green dragon Fleshwarper does not fit the green dragon profile. Fleshwarpers have to be non-lawful and green dragons are always lawful evil, check MM v3.5. Emperor Malstyg fits the green dragon profile perfectly and has the best back story of the bunch. Vote for Emperor Malstyg, because this will likely be your last chance to vote for an Emperor.
blackbone 04-12-06, 10:50 PM	Well I'm voting for the grafter since he may have something as weird as a succumbus paladin since it's not a complete opposite and it isn't something as dramatic as a celestial dragon because chaotic or lawfull they are still evil, besides theres something a great dragon dragon sorcerer that can make stuff like a kobold monk with bat wings and two raking claws that make it feel so right :D
Ront Iron-Roar 04-13-06, 10:41 AM	Pity the Blue Dragon Illusionist didn't win but heh. I voted for the Lahamust. Reminded me of an old folk tale about this dragon that poisoned the enviroment around him.
Helian 04-13-06, 06:24 PM	Well I'm voting for the grafter since he may have something as weird as a succumbus paladin since it's not a complete opposite and it isn't something as dramatic as a celestial dragon because chaotic or lawfull they are still evil, besides theres something a great dragon dragon sorcerer that can make stuff like a kobold monk with bat wings and two raking claws that make it feel so right :D HOLY run on sentence BATMAN!!!!!!!! I think my eyes are bleeding........ ;-]
blackbone 04-13-06, 07:10 PM	ah crap srry bout that :D
talkingbeatles 04-14-06, 10:52 PM	I'm voting for the the celestial green dragon because...well becasue he's mine. They cut my backstory a little bit. I mean Wizal was raised by celestial parents who were then murdered by an evil chromatic dragon, so of course he'd turn out good. It looks like he's an underdog in this match. Oh well, I should have submitted more then one creature. There's always next time I suppose. Still, I won't give up. Vote Wizal. He'd save you from evil!
Orchomenos 04-17-06, 10:16 AM	Green Dragons live in forests. So the best one is the Woodling Green Dragon!
Jerivar 04-18-06, 01:44 AM	MINE GOT IN! MINE GOT IN! MINE GOT IN! *dances with joy, hugs everyone, and starts a conga line* My green dragon got in. Although I now see it mustn't have been too hard - and apparently not many people entered a green - so not much of a surprise, i'm guessing. If it didn't, I would have voted for the angel-winged one.
savant_warlord13 04-18-06, 10:05 AM	Aragraftex is quite possibly the most awesome dragon (and, if it uses the ELH pseudonatural template, most powerful as well) in the whole contest. Even my bias for the color green (my favorite color) is surpassed by my bias for the pseudonatural template! I hope to see this dragon as a miniature as well.
pileobone 04-18-06, 08:04 PM	Gaaaaah!!! For the love a'....post the blasted red dragons already!!! :hoppingma
Kearif 04-19-06, 07:56 PM	I'm with you, Pileobone. I would very much like to know if I got in or not and i'm a red dragon.
Zevox 04-20-06, 01:35 AM	So... whats taking so long on getting the next batch up? And when are we going to see some metallic dragon voting rather than all these chromatics? Zevox
pileobone 04-20-06, 05:15 PM	POST THE RED DRAGONS!!! OR I SHALL RUIN THIS BOARD WITH MY ANGER!!! AAAAAAHHHH!!! :banghead: :headexplo :hoppingma :banghead: :headexplo :headexplo :banghead: :hoppingma
RavinRay 04-21-06, 09:03 AM	Well, this is an example of the real world intruding upon the D&D world. Betcha stuff's brewing over at the Wizards offices that keeps everyone real busy.
Iron Klaw Merc 04-21-06, 09:44 AM	I think thier just running behind because of the Easter Holiday.
speeblefreak 04-21-06, 08:53 PM	POST THE RED DRAGONS!!! OR I SHALL RUIN THIS BOARD WITH MY ANGER!!! AAAAAAHHHH!!! :banghead: :headexplo :hoppingma :banghead: :headexplo :headexplo :banghead: :hoppingma AND INCLUDE THE PYRO DRAGONS WHEN YOU DO!!! SERIOUSLY, THE GREENS ARE STILL UP?! WHY AM I STILL SHOUTING?
Arcticflare 04-25-06, 08:30 PM	Mystag was my pick. I like the wandering emo dragon concept, and the fact that he allied with druids really won him over for me. My vote almost went to Lahamust, but the idea of a good city in Baator? Come on!
Iron Klaw Merc 04-25-06, 08:32 PM	Well we got to see the red dragons, i guess their okay, but I was hoping for something a little more impressive. I ended up voting for Arcflare, but good luck to all the enteries.
speeblefreak 04-25-06, 08:59 PM	I noticed they slashed Grizzit'nikiliv's backstory, so here's the whole thing. Woodling Great Pyroclastic Wyrm Pyrokineticist 10 "The Circle of Ash has succeeded, and the Pyre has reawoken. Even now our brothers defending the Verdant Circle are dying or converting. All we have left is prayer." --The High Druid of the Eastern Leaf-Palace Grizzit'nikiliv is an abomination: a sentient plant (or almost) who lives to burn the world to cinders. As the dragon, the self-named Living Wildfire, grew, he attracted a group of blighters and insane druids who believed this paradox to be a sign that the forests of the world were meant to burn. His followers spread across the continent, convincing or forcing other druids to become part of the ever-widening Circle of Ash. Eventually he was defeated and seemingly killed by a bronze trained in the druidic arts. The Living Wildfire was reduced to a small hill quickly engulfed in vegetation. Sometime during the last year, Grizzit'nikiliv's faithful followers the Circle of Ash reignited his fires, despite the efforts of half the druids on the continent. Renamed the Living Pyre in memory of his near-death and the score of druids who burned to death on his back as he was revived, Grizzit'nikiliv now leads his cult against all of nature. When this world is scoured of greenery, he plans to advance on the multiverse itself.
pileobone 04-25-06, 10:36 PM	HOORAY! Finally they post the red dragons, and mine actually made it to the voting phase. Not that I expect to get any votes, but it's exciting anyway! Good luck to all!
talkingbeatles 04-25-06, 11:27 PM	Damn! My dragon got in second place. Well, that's actually better then I thought it would do. Still, I was hoping for first. Oh well. I'll just post more creatures next time. Anyways for the red dragons my votes going to Arcflare. He's the most original in my opinion. In fact he reminds me of the Vizzerdrix. Awww..the memories. VOTE ARCFLARE!!!
The Blue Sorceress 04-26-06, 12:38 AM	Holy cow! my dragon made it! *squeals with joy* Vote Kotharrisk the Demon Star in '06, folks. He's got panache! -Blue *squeals with joy again*
Morka 04-26-06, 08:36 AM	For the Green Dragons, I was behind Ixshiliscarm, the Woodling Green Dragon. As the Lord of the Forests, I thought a Woodling Green Dragon was the next best thing. Apparently, I was the only one to think that! :weep: Now for the Red Dragons, I'm behind the other Woodling: Grizzit'nikiliv! At first, I thought "Not another Woodling!" But the fluff is so extraordinary! A plant creature burning the entire forest, and with a bunch of blighters as followers! Wow! :mage:
Watchdog_of_Hades 04-26-06, 10:28 AM	Damn! My dragon got in second place. Well, that's actually better then I thought it would do. Still, I was hoping for first. Oh well. I'll just post more creatures next time. Anyways for the red dragons my votes going to Arcflare. He's the most original in my opinion. In fact he reminds me of the Vizzerdrix. Awww..the memories. VOTE ARCFLARE!!! Yeah! There's a reason they put Arcflare first in the list! (Hint: it's not just because his name starts with A.)
Lord_Canius 04-26-06, 11:31 AM	(Hint: it's not just because his name starts with A.) Maybe its because the second letter is R! :P
Jerivar 04-27-06, 09:54 AM	I like that red merchant dude. Evil genius mastermind? Check. Corrupt, amoral, unscupulous capitalist? Check. Red dragon? Check. It's all good. Err, evil.
Arcticflare 04-27-06, 07:47 PM	Yeah! There's a reason they put Arcflare first in the list! (Hint: it's not just because his name starts with A.) Obviously, it's because it so closely resembles mine. :P Yes, I remember your little disclaimer when you first posted him. Nonetheless, I'm already biased towards him. Good job.
Tyhm 04-28-06, 04:54 PM	I like that red merchant dude. Evil genius mastermind? Check. Corrupt, amoral, unscupulous capitalist? Check. Red dragon? Check. It's all good. Err, evil. Hear hear...and it's a nice variant on the other GAR ME SMASH-SMASH dragons. Subtlety. Although the Demon Star had a nice cliche'd evil aura...too bad I can't vote twice, they're both good. The living pyre...man, he should just be his own category. Nihilists.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 04-28-06, 06:59 PM	I almost don't want to vote here. I see several that I believe deserve to move on. The Living Wildfire, the Psion who wishes to become all chromatic dragons (Tiamut's husband, maybe?), the Pirate, and the Merchant. Long live them all!
Zevox 05-02-06, 02:35 PM	Well, the next batch is up, and we're still on chromatics :banghead: . I thought they had some picked out already - why are we voting on each and every color of chromatics then?? Anyway, I voted for Caestavarix. A White Dragon cleric of the Goddess of Ice - doesn't get much better than that. As an aside, what the Nine Hells is up with all the fire-based dragons in the White Dragon competition??? Theres even a red dragon in the batch - its ridiculous. Zevox
Balor von Balorvitch 05-02-06, 03:22 PM	Wo wo, i call foul on the white dragon competion! Kreestahlviendhe, “Krystalwind”: Albino Red Dragon is a RED Dragon. That is like man in drag winning a gold medal for womens weight lifting!
Aneul 05-02-06, 03:58 PM	Wow- a dragon of mine got selected to compete! As a note to Zevox, who reasonably enough is questioning the number of fire based dragons in the competition, I thought an dragon with the cold subtype becoming part fire elemental made for an intresting- if slightly cliche- paradox. I'd also like to point out that Frostburn was the first such white dragon submited to the competition, apearing on page 2, and that not all of her backstory has been included in the blurb wizards put together for her (my fault for making it so long though), so I'm including here the bit about how she goes from just at White Dragon Evocker to Elemental Savant. The decades dragged on, and Frostburn's studies took her across the norther continent, to the homes of the lands most prominent mages- from whom she demanded knowledge of the control of fire, and subsiquently ate. It was in the stronghold of one such wizard that Frostburn encountered her first Fire Elemental. The mighty creature, an elder of its race was summoned by the desperate human to hold Frostburn at bay- but his untimly death prevented the mage from ever ordering the creature out of its summoning circle. With the wizard dead, Frostburn turned to the elemental, obvious intresting in its origins dampened by warriness- and was suprised when it spoke, and more suprised still by the offer it made to her. If she would free it, the elemental said, it would show her the true path to mastery of the flame- that of the elemental savant. Well versed in the ways of magic, Frostburn agreed, and sent the elemental back to its home plane with a word. As the light of its living flames left the tower, a puff of smoke rose from the summoning circle's center. With the clearing of the smoke, Frostburn's eyes picked out a heavy brass bound tome lying where the elemental had been. Her study began in earnest the following day... Frostburn spent nearly three centuries mastering the art of Elemental savantry, studying in the seculusion of the ruins of her glacial layre in the north. When she next emerged, an evident change had been wrought on her by the firey magics she had conquered- her scales, once purest white were now shot through with red and golden strikes reminisant of tounges of flame- and indeed, she had become as intimately attached to its searing heat as she was to the bitting chill of cold. Atlast, Frostburn had become the perfect engine of destruction- neither dragon nor elemental- neither frost nor flame, but a seemless merging of the two. Anyway, thats Frostburn. I'd love to see her in the real competition, but I'm impressed with just about everyone she's competing against in this round, so we'll see how things turn out. Aneul
Kaiberon 05-02-06, 07:45 PM	the selection of white dragons is pretty lame. 2 fire adepts and one albino red. Pretty weak as far as diversity goes.
Iron Klaw Merc 05-02-06, 08:02 PM	I am happy to see that I am not the only one who finds all the fire based cold dragons to be a bit on the lame side. I did like Caestavarix: White Dragon Cleric of Auril, I like the back story, and think it can be developed into a decent main villian. Oh and congrats to Arcflame.
Morka 05-03-06, 08:22 AM	I am happy to see that I am not the only one who finds all the fire based cold dragons to be a bit on the lame side. I did like Caestavarix: White Dragon Cleric of Auril, I like the back story, and think it can be developed into a decent main villian. Oh and congrats to Arcflame. I like this one as well. Unlike most overpowered CR 50 dragons we already saw, this dragon actually started as a young, weak, but carefull dragon.
RavinRay 05-04-06, 06:38 AM	This is just a whimsical idea, but I wouldn't put it past Mark et al if they already sneaked in that April Fool's pink dragon from Dragon Magazine, possible masquerading as another dragon, a song dragon perhaps, given Harold the Bard's/spellweaver appearance last season. :rofl:
Bard-of-all-trades 05-05-06, 02:26 AM	Wo wo, i call foul on the white dragon competion! Kreestahlviendhe, “Krystalwind”: Albino Red Dragon is a RED Dragon. That is like man in drag winning a gold medal for womens weight lifting! Hey, now I was as shocked as anyone to see my RED in with the whites, but think about how cool/awful it would be (depending on which side of the DM screen you sit). A party goes deep into a mountain with all their protection spells based on cold only to find out they do no good when it really isn't a white dragon. WOTC went for that and that is why Krystalwind is listed under the white dragons. It's better than a man in drag winning a women's weight-lifting competition. It's so devious, it's brilliant!
Balor von Balorvitch 05-05-06, 12:04 PM	...... It's better than a man in drag winning a women's weight-lifting competition. It's so devious, it's brilliant! Comparing the +/- of red vs white i say it is worse lol. Congrats on your devious dragon, but no matter what color a red dragon is it is still a red..... Confusing EXample: White while it is red in color it says white, saying that it is red just because thats what color is is does not mean that it isn't the color white.
Wotc_Mark 05-05-06, 12:27 PM	After this weeks selection we have 10 of the 16 for the upcoming competition selected. The next three weeks will be Metallic dragons followed by a week or two of our favorites that didnt have enough submissions to do an entire category for, and maybee we will even give the dragons that finished second each week a second chance to get back in this competition. Then we will put them in the head-to-head bracket (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20060221x) and let them loose on each other :) MJ
speeblefreak 05-05-06, 06:49 PM	After this weeks selection we have 10 of the 16 for the upcoming competition selected. Feels fast. The next three weeks will be Metallic dragons followed by a week or two of our favorites that didnt have enough submissions to do an entire category for, Such as swamp landwyrms and dragon turtles. ;) and maybe we will even give the dragons that finished second each week a second chance to get back in this competition. Much good may that do me. My past submissions have all gotten crushed. :weep: Then we will put them in the head-to-head bracket (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20060221x) and let them loose on each other :) The battle approaches. :plotting:
The Blue Sorceress 05-08-06, 07:39 AM	I like this one as well. Unlike most overpowered CR 50 dragons we already saw, this dragon actually started as a young, weak, but carefull dragon. Aww! Thanks to all for lovin' on my Caesta :) -Blue
Zevox 05-09-06, 02:17 PM	Great, the Red won. So now we have two Red Dragons in the competition and no White Dragon :nonono: . I'm beggining to have my doubts about this competition... Zevox
Balor von Balorvitch 05-09-06, 02:29 PM	Great, the Red won. So now we have two Red Dragons in the competition and no White Dragon :nonono: . I'm beggining to have my doubts about this competition... Zevox I know! He should have been entered as a red dragon (I would vote for him) but alas the red dragons prove once again that they are the dirtest players in the game. I would not be surprized if one boils down some silver or gold jumps in the metal dragon category :D . Albino or not he is a RED dragon!
aelryinth 05-09-06, 10:28 PM	Just a quick question....is DragonGaea the name of one the WoTC people who picks a dragon? Because Rampart is my Dragon, and I'm not credited there...just curious! Vote for the little bronze with the big Torc! You know you like leverage!~ ===Aelryinth
Phantasmagoria 05-10-06, 01:20 AM	Great, so Kreestahlviendhe the "pigmentationally challenged" red has stolen the white dragon slot. That's a load of rothe****! :pbbbtt: And what's with this week's selection? Brass and bronze. Like someone's going to explode if each type gets their own poll. :waits:
runestar 05-10-06, 01:27 AM	What actually happens to all the dragons who win the polls? Do they get featured in some upcoming article or something? Is is this just for fun and laughter, peace and joy? :P
Morka 05-10-06, 08:23 AM	Well, everything isn't completely lost for the White Dragons. The Chessmaster (is it his name?) is half-white, after all! This time I'm voting for the speaking owl. But after winning my elections in the 2 first weeks, I'm in an incredible losing serie... :dragon:
Iron Klaw Merc 05-10-06, 09:46 AM	I don't believe that silly, albino red dragon won in the White Dragon contest, while I say "what were you thinking" to the people who decided to put the albino in that catagory, I must also shake my head at the people who voted for it.
Wotc_Mark 05-10-06, 12:13 PM	What actually happens to all the dragons who win the polls? Do they get featured in some upcoming article or something? Is is this just for fun and laughter, peace and joy? :PThey move on to the head to head competition where we will crown one winner. However as in past creature competitions I would expect the winner or maybee a few more of these dragons to turn up in an article on the wizards website in the future. MJ :cool:
Balor von Balorvitch 05-12-06, 03:02 PM	Oh no! Enough is enough! A freak creature that totally goes aganist the others of his race should not win again we already have 2 polar opposites. A Succubus Paladin.... no you read right a SUCCUBUS PALADIN. D&D where only the pretty demons deserve redemtion. & A Ethreal Flitcher Monk with VoP named Taibo: Not so bad but VoP is broke on monsters who don't have as much money for there level. We have the odd balls, we need cool monsters
Draz74 05-13-06, 07:11 PM	Here's some stats I drew up today for Grubenakh. You're welcome to imagine him less-powerful if you don't like Epic (though most of his competition is probably at least CR 29 too). I'm no professional powergamer, but he should do OK (against dragons, his specialty). Grubenakh, the Sandthorn Wyrmling Brass Dragon 5 / Ranger (Strongarm) 25 CG Tiny Dragon (CR 29, ECL 34) Str 26 (+8).... ........ HD: 30 .... HP: 540 (5d12+25d8+390) Dex 27 (+8).... ........ BAB / grapple: +23 / +15 Con 37 (+13).... ........ AC: 43 (flat-footed 35, touch 30) Int 14 (+2).... ........ Fort: +36.... Ref: +31.... Will: +28 Wis 20 (+5).... ........ Initiative +8..... Speed 120, Fly 300 (average), Burrow 60 Chr 16 (+3).... ........ Languages: Draconic, Common, Ignan Feats ........ ........ ........ Skills (vs Dragons) Weapon Focus: Bite........................ 30 Survival ........ +36 (+48) Multiattack........ ........ ........ 30 Spot ........ +38 (+50) Track ........ ........ ........ 30 Listen ........ +38 (+50) Dodge ........ ........ ........ 30 Search ........ +33 Power Attack................ ........ 23 Bluff ........ +36 (+48) Endurance........ ........ ........ 20 Sense Motive ........ +26 (+38) Mobility ........ ................ 19 Use Magic Device........ +25 Improved Sunder ........................ 10 Knowledge (Local) ........+13 Spring Attack................ ........ 10 Knowledge (Arcana)........ +13 Underfoot Combat ........................ 1 Tumble ........ +29 Great Cleave........ ........ ........ 0 Balance ........ +28 Combat Expertise ........................ 0 Climb ........ +28 Improved Trip ........................ 0 Jump ........ +28 Confound the Big Folk........................ 0 Gather Information........ +8 Fast Healing 6 ........................ 0 Diplomacy ........ +10 Bane of Enemies Alertness Features ........ ................ Space / Reach: 2 ½’ / 0’ (5’ bite) Bite 1d4, Claws 1d3 (x2) ........ Breath Weapon: 1d6 fire, 30’ line, Ref DC 25 Breath Weapon: sleep 1d6+1 rounds, 15’ cone, Will DC 25, cooldown 1d4 rounds Speak with Animals at will ........ Fire Immunity, Cold Vulnerability Immune to sleep, paralysis ........ Low-Light Vision, Darkvision / Blindsense 60’ Wild Empathy +26 ................ Favored Enemy +12: Dragons Favored Enemy +2: Humans ........ Favored Enemy +2: Undead Favored Enemy +2: Animals ........ Favored Enemy +2: Elementals Favored Enemy +2: Magical Beast........ Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker Evasion ........ ................ ........ Camouflage, Hide in Plain Sight Combat: Natural Bite +32 (1d4+8), Claw +29/+29 (1d3+4) Antidragon Bite +34 (1d4+2d6+20), Claw +31/+31 (1d3+2d6+16) Trip +12 (Unsure Footing: opponent can’t use size bonuses) Equipment: +5 Manual of Quickness in Action, +5 Manual of Bodily Health, +4 Manual of Gainful Exercise, +4 Tome of Understanding, +4 Tome of Leadership and Influence, Boots of Swiftness, +8-Armor Bracers of Relentless Might, Ioun Stones: Pale Green/Dusty Rose/Dark Blue, Crystal Crown of Mindarmor of Improved Deception and Persuasion, +6 Periapt of Wisdom +5 Natural Armor, Cold Immunity Ring of Freedom of Movement, +5 Protection Ironskin Ring, +5 Cloak of Resistance of Greater Lightning Resistance, Handy Haversack, 609249 gp Spells/Day: 5 / 4 / 4 / 4 Spells Prepared: Alarm (x2), Detect Snares and Pits, Pass without Trace (x2), Cure Light Wounds (x2), Protection from Energy (x2), Greater Magic Fang (x4), Commune with Nature, Cure Serious Wounds (x2), Nondetection
Odnasept 05-14-06, 01:24 AM	I'm curious as to whether anyone else has had their dragon(s) completely passed over.... After creating an uber-powerful Prismatic Dragon I went to the opposite end of the spectrum and made a rather low-powered Bronze Dragon named Dartakirlym, who has not appeared with the other Bronzes in this week's competition. She is weird, her description was written in verse, and she stands little chance of winning, but I put quite a bit of work into her and would like to see her at least have a fair shot.... ...But apparently she wasn't one of the Web Developer's (or whatever title he was given) 'favourites', which is disappointing though not surprising.
Hedstrong 05-16-06, 08:48 PM	Uhm, ya know i can understand taking off the end of my dragons for length reasons, but really it wasn't that long, and why replace a measly 48 words with "and so he did"? Come on, there goes the joke from the casual voters view for something that makes the entry seemed pretty half-ast. For people who are wondering, the rest of Macs story is: "Mac made them all jump up to a rousing beat, and cry to a mournful ballad. The troop begged Mac to join them and he did. Now Mac travels the lands with this circus astounding children with feats of juggling genius, and entertaining adults with some 'questionable' limericks."
Quicksilver 05-16-06, 11:30 PM	First off, congratulations to Aelryinth for your victory with Rampart, and in getting him correctly attributed to you. Next up, yay for me! I only submitted one dragon; Sivaraak, the Silver Rogue, and he got in! :dancin: I think I cracked the method for getting picked though: only write as much as they want to print. I think many excellent dragons just drowned in the extra text that their creators gave them. Reading and editing these entries must be a mammoth task. This is all the extra that I put in: Game information: Sivaraak is an Old Silver Dragon/10th level Rogue. In combat with powerful foes, he'll use his polymorph and stealth powers to lose them, then attack with a sneak attack. In direct combat, he'll use his Improved Evasion to avoid a rival's breath weapon and use his own paralytic breath weapon to enable more hard-hitting claw attacks. Has anyone noticed that we're almost finished picking these dragons, and we had more entries than we've had comments? I get the feeling that many of the people posting here are successful creators, and most people vote using only the short text provided. Just in case someone's undecided, let me tell you why I think you should vote for Sivaraak. 1. Mac's a jester. An incredibly old, powerful and smart jester. He's laughing at you, not with you! :rofl: 2. Palsha's a draconic emperor with samurai subjects. Vote for him and it'll be seppuku for you before you can say "Not disembowelling myself is dishonourable!" :ghosted: 3. Roland's a paladin. We just voted in a metallic paladin. Also, just think about how aggravating every paladin PC you've met is. Now multiply that by 1000 times. That's how aggravating a silver dragon paladin will be. :banghead: 4. Shariliraxima has no short form of her name. Sure, the idea of a silver dragon blackguard is cool in a way, but she's a loser! She lost to that lich, how could she win the competition? :nonono: 5. So vote for Sivaraak, he'll steal your heart :inlove: , steal the competition :king: , and he'll steal you something nice for voting for him. Vote Sivaraak!
aelryinth 05-22-06, 03:21 AM	Glad to see they got the name corrected, I sent off a Email to the WizO in charge wondering who was taking my credit! YOu know why I think my guy won? He had the most appropriate NAME. Seriously, look at the names of all these dragons. They are long, they are complex, and you can't remember them or figure out what they refer to in and of themselves. Now, you meet a Bronze Dragon Paladin. His name translates as RAMPART. The defender, the warrior on the rampart, ever watching, ever alert, waiting and poised for action. It conveys height, the majesty of castles, a defender, nobility, and strength. In other words, it FITS the dragon. When you see the name Rampart, you instantly know what you expect to see...and there it is. ---------------- As for backstory, I made Rampart's intentionally mutable. I gave him no levels, because his levels are meant to be flexible. He scales incredibly well simply by playing with his character levels...the artifact he wears takes care of his physical attributes...and he always, ALWAYS has a rider along to help him out, typically another Epic level character. I made him as someone a DM could scale to meet any evil draconic encounter, especially the overpowered ones that seemed to precede him when I first made him up. IN my head, I can see him taking fighter levels to get access to draconic combat feats, especially Improved Natural Attack and the like, or perhaps breath weapon feats, improved Flyby, and so on. Paladin is a lead in for Servant of Bahamut and Dragonslayer.....he's meant to be the ultimate deadly force for another dragon, especially an evil one, to go toe to toe with. Not only does he enter physical combat with the Str, Nat AC, Breath Weapon, Con, and Flying power of a much older Dragon, but the additional dragonslaying might of his classes, and the way the Vassal of Bahamut punishes evil dragons who even dare to hit him, makes him a terrifying melee combatant despite his relatively young age. ON top of that, he will have a rider who is capable of buffing both of them, or adding his might to Ramparts for physical assault. Rampart is meant to be mean, very mean, to evil dragons. You wonder why they just don't go wiping out humanity? Because this little fellow might just be in the way. Picture a bronze dragon in dragonscale barding of platinum, originally made from the hide of a RED dragon...just starting out, you are probably dealing with an AC of 60. heh! And then he's only an Adult Dragon, and he throws himself at a Red Wyrm and that Wyrm finds this little punk a tenth his size is just as strong as he is, and his claws burn him just touching the little bastard...:) ===Aelryinth
Balor von Balorvitch 05-23-06, 03:52 PM	wow, my dragon got in thats jawsome! :cheer: (I reserve this space for palshas write up)
Sadrin Thunderclaw 05-23-06, 07:13 PM	wow....i guess 9 submissions really did help...even if the two of mine that have gotten into the polls were my first two=) as it stands my first guy (Korraganitar) came in...dead last fer the shadow dragon polls but at least he got in....wotc's paragraph didn't really do him justice anyway (plus the whole point of him was that he was a disciple of ashardalon with a shadow rather than a balor fer a heart! not a cleric!) well maybe trancantelama will do better....after all the evil dragon raised by good dragons did well (silversheen the blue winner) maybe the opposite will win...wish they had mentioned that...took me long enough to write her backstory (don't believe me? check out the submission forums around page 7...shes in there somewhere!) still.....at least if none of mine win some got into the prelims and many did not (makes me happy).....and besides there are other great ones out there to (i was looking for krede the mighty...i hope they didnt discard him) Sadrin
Quicksilver 05-23-06, 09:34 PM	Sivaraak lost! :weep: Well, at least it was to Balor. I think Sivaraak's going to have to steal the wakizashi from everyone who voted for Palsha, then frame them for dishonourable deeds. Take that, fickle public! Seppuku by nail scissors, combs, or soup spoons! :P
Dragna the Claw 05-25-06, 12:24 PM	Does anyone else notice many of the dragon summaries on the voting page hardly summarize the dragons' stories at all? I know devs are pressed for space, but in the case of Foda they only included 20% of my story in 5 lines. That hardly explains why/how he's even a drunken master. I wonder if there's any way they can link the specific stories posted on the original submission thread underneath each contestant. Just a thought for future competitions.
Aneul 05-25-06, 04:56 PM	Yeah, links to the original stories would be great. Although Wizards otC is doing a pretty good job sumerizing, they do seems to be leaving some key points of the dragon's histories out- although, we did write some really long histories. But anyway, links to the original wrtie ups would be really good in future competitions, or the next phase of this one.
Quicksilver 05-26-06, 03:53 AM	Spare a thought for Slurugana. They never got out of the shell during the description. I wonder what happened, but not enought to trwl through the original submissions.
Sorcen_Anenooata 05-26-06, 12:28 PM	The tournament idea is great, i've used the idea of the devils snatching the best warriors from everywhere in the universe and making them fight in a great hell tournament with the winner being granted a wish and then sent home, but as always you must be very careful with the wording of your wish. Anyway, to say something about the current gold dragons being picked, I myself like Foda because he shares my study of zui quan- drunken fist,AKA drunken master. P.S.- You may recognize my name from terminus en but i'm just using this name and am not a member of Sorcen, but i can relay messages to Sorcen if anyone has any for them.
Dale warrior 05-26-06, 04:58 PM	good thing you dont quicksilver, though be wanred it is a bit of a novel here is the story (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8229388&postcount=282)
Bard-of-all-trades 05-31-06, 12:19 AM	OK folks. I understand some are miffed about not getting the full story on their favorite dragons' backgrounds, but come on. I copied a few backgrounds into Word and got PAGES of background. That is way too much especially when they wrote and I quote "So pick a type of dragon, come up with one or two paragraphs describing that dragon, and don't forget to give your dragon a creative name. We will be including our favorites in the next creature competition." With that said, be happy they picked the dragons they did because they could have just as easily NOT picked them. Is it so hard to follow directions?
Dragna the Claw 06-01-06, 09:46 AM	Does anyone know what dragon type will be voted on next or is this the end of our voting? Maybe they should have a loser's bracket, like all the next-most-voted-on in a lineup or something. Any other ideas?
Odnasept 06-01-06, 12:41 PM	If they stop after the core dragons now without covering Force and Prism dragons or those that don't fall under the 'psionic' or 'undead' categories, than this will be a much sadder contest than I had anticipated.... I like your idea of a 'loser's bracket' and in addition I have an idea that would probably make us a lot more satisfied with the contest as a whole. It would be great if the Wizards people would link to the original submissions thread and list all those submissions that were originally not selected by the web producer. They wouldn't have to use blurbs from their stories or anything, just list the name, title, and perhaps the page number of the thread each dragon appears on. The dragons wouldn't be separated into categories; there could just be one big lump of all the rejects that those who care could vote on for a week. I know I can't be the only one who feels a bit burned by one persyn's rejection of their creation (even though in my case I know Dartakirlym was a loser to begin with ;)). This would be a perfect way for every creature submitted to get a fair and democratic shot. And if Krede the Mighty doesn't appear somewhere else in the voting, this would finally be his chance to be in the competition! :P
Kearif 06-05-06, 04:49 PM	It's been a while since i last had time to post or even vote, so: I'm glad that th albino red dragon won the white dragon contest. white edragons aren't that wonderful and i like the idea of a misleading dragon. plus, now there is red that's worth voting for, and while i'm on the topic, A CURSE APON YOU WATCHDOG_OF_HADES! YOU STOLE MY IDEA AND MADE IT STUPID! WHY AM I THE ONLY ONE THAT THINKS THAT A MULTI-HEADED CREATURE CAN JUST BE A FREAK; WHY DOES EVERYONE ELSE HAVE TO HAVE THEM WITH SOME OTHER MULTI-HEADED CREAURE IN THIER BLOODLINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :headexplo :hoppingma :censored: There, I'm calm now. I like the selection people have made for the metallics the best dragons won in all cases. now on to the current vote. :yuck: the Gold dragon options are terrible they are all (except for one) Chaotic and/or Evil. these are suppost to be GOLD DRAGON. golds are always LG and no gold should ever be more than one step away from that. the only one that is not blantly wrongly alighned has the dumbests backstory ever written for one of these dragons. i can't bring myself to vote for one of them.
Morka 06-08-06, 10:06 AM	Once again, my choice (Injulah) came second. Now, for the wild card, the Odd Dragon :confused: , my vote is for the best wild card, the dragon hunter, Korjilyn, the Paragon Advanced Wyvern Totemist. He's the one who won't give quarter to any dragon opponent, he's the one who won't make alliance with anyone. He's my choice!
Watchdog_of_Hades 06-08-06, 04:38 PM	Aitor for president! Until he comes up against Arcflare. Also, I'm boycotting Chronospell. I don't know if I was sleepwalking or what when I typed him up, but I'm ashamed to have done so. A CURSE APON YOU WATCHDOG_OF_HADES! YOU STOLE MY IDEA AND MADE IT STUPID! WHY AM I THE ONLY ONE THAT THINKS THAT A MULTI-HEADED CREATURE CAN JUST BE A FREAK; WHY DOES EVERYONE ELSE HAVE TO HAVE THEM WITH SOME OTHER MULTI-HEADED CREAURE IN THIER BLOODLINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'll admit that it could be a freak. But the chances of naturally evolving a second head, let alone eleven more, is so small that I'm just going to call it impossible.
Dark Kyosuke 06-10-06, 06:37 PM	So, I guess my Half-Fiend Stone Drake Soul Eater wasn't Odd enough a Dragon to even be considered... :raincloud
tragedy 06-10-06, 08:10 PM	So, I guess my Half-Fiend Stone Drake Soul Eater wasn't Odd enough a Dragon to even be considered... :raincloud Well,if it was half-golem as well,then it would probably odd enough.But then everyone would wonder where the dragon part went.
RavinRay 06-11-06, 04:00 AM	Well, considering the sheer number of entries submitted, for my amethyst dragon out of the ten I submitted to make it to the semi's is recognition enough for me. Now let's see the judges' wild card choices, those which didn't require our votes. :dragon:
Odnasept 06-11-06, 11:27 AM	Actually, according to my source none of the dragons which made it into the semis required our votes; they were all selected by the web producer. So don't worry Dark Kyosuke, all the 'rejected' dragons were rejected only by one man....plus it seems doubtful that most of the entries had/have much if any chance of getting the Shuluth/Meepo/possibly Eludecia treatment of being made into a miniature!
Dark Kyosuke 06-11-06, 12:33 PM	Actually, according to my source none of the dragons which made it into the semis required our votes; they were all selected by the web producer. So don't worry Dark Kyosuke, all the 'rejected' dragons were rejected only by one man....plus it seems doubtful that most of the entries had/have much if any chance of getting the Shuluth/Meepo/possibly Eludecia treatment of being made into a miniature! Oh, I'm not upset. Not terribly. I just felt like griping for a moment. And I enjoy using the rainy smilicon. That and "No, no, no..." tend to sum up my moods. And I know that the Stone Drake isn't core, but I think a Half-Fiend Stone Drake would be an absolutely bad-ass mini... Oh well. There's always next year. (And if anyone liked my entry, however sparse it was, do tell me. It's on the first page of the submissions topic...)
Watchdog_of_Hades 06-13-06, 10:24 PM	Alux! Alux! She's our dragon! If she can't do it... er... something... braggin'... Just pretend that the second line is better written and rhymes with "dragon." Vote Alux!
ajdragonfire 06-14-06, 08:35 PM	Now that Vrr'ragath has a second chance to make it into the competition, I want to make sure some things are clear: 1.) The whole story about the Lizardmen is cool, but it's not the most important thing. It took up too much of the description. 2.) Absent from the entry was any mention of the constantly-regenerating iron golem guarding the phylactery. It'd be kinda hard for a party of adventurers to swim down to the bottom of a magma chamber and then do battle with an iron golem that is constantly healing. So, why should you vote for Vrr'ragath? Because he's the damn hottest competitor out there.
speeblefreak 06-14-06, 10:26 PM	Arrrrrrrh! And with Aitor I got so close to a second chance! *melts* Strange. I don't remember doing Aitor at all. :confused:
RavinRay 06-15-06, 04:54 AM	I'm torn between Cyrnothraxis the white dragon so we'd have an honest-to-Tiamat white dragon (and not that albino red dragon), as whites are sooo underestimated, and Radiancesstia the sapphire dragon coz the gems are sorely underrepresented... but I voted for Radiancesstia already. :D
Odnasept 06-15-06, 12:47 PM	Well, you'll be happy to know that at least I voted for Cyrnothraxis. It was my choice among the white dragon entries anyway, and the whole 'people think it's a white dragon but it's really a red dragon' thing was done better anyway with the wight dragon (an albino red dragon is a cool idea, but for the most part a red dragon with the fire subtype wouldn't live in the climatic range of the cold subtype white dragons due to it being so vulnerable to the elements there) ;) . Of course, I've already pretty much given up on this competition anyway since it didn't even have a category for the Epic Dragons.... :P
Lord_Bahamut 06-16-06, 03:22 PM	Well, you'll be happy to know that at least I voted for Cyrnothraxis. It was my choice among the white dragon entries anyway, and the whole 'people think it's a white dragon but it's really a red dragon' thing was done better anyway with the wight dragon (an albino red dragon is a cool idea, but for the most part a red dragon with the fire subtype wouldn't live in the climatic range of the cold subtype white dragons due to it being so vulnerable to the elements there) . This is true, but if the red dragon had some levels in hidecarved dragon, it could gain immunity to frost...
Kearif 06-16-06, 06:17 PM	{double posted due to computer error}
Kearif 06-16-06, 06:29 PM	A CURSE APON YOU WATCHDOG_OF_HADES! YOU STOLE MY IDEA AND MADE IT STUPID! WHY AM I THE ONLY ONE THAT THINKS THAT A MULTI-HEADED CREATURE CAN JUST BE A FREAK; WHY DOES EVERYONE ELSE HAVE TO HAVE THEM WITH SOME OTHER MULTI-HEADED CREAURE IN THIER BLOODLINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'll admit that it could be a freak. But the chances of naturally evolving a second head, let alone eleven more, is so small that I'm just going to call it impossible. snakes are sometimes born with two headeds, and neither of our dragons have anything to do with evolution; your's is a crossbreed and mine is a first generation freak. And, by the way, What do get when you cross a twelve-headed hydra with a red dragon? A HALF-RED DRAGON TWELVE-HEADED HYDRA! DUH!
Arcticflare 06-18-06, 05:54 PM	snakes are sometimes born with two headeds, and neither of our dragons have anything to do with evolution; your's is a crossbreed and mine is a first generation freak. And, by the way, What do get when you cross a twelve-headed hydra with a red dragon? A HALF-RED DRAGON TWELVE-HEADED HYDRA! DUH! My, my. Someone's a little jealous that he wasn't the only one to come with a multiheaded dragon. . . . Sorry, but I have to say, at least Watchdog's creation has an awesome name.
Watchdog_of_Hades 06-18-06, 06:04 PM	Sorry, but I have to say, at least Watchdog's creation has an awesome name.Heh heh. And, by the way, What do get when you cross a twelve-headed hydra with a red dragon? A HALF-RED DRAGON TWELVE-HEADED HYDRA! DUH!Um... Um... Magic. Magic is the explanation for everything. (what a smooth comeback, me!)
Kearif 06-19-06, 04:51 PM	My, my. Someone's a little jealous that he wasn't the only one to come with a multiheaded dragon. . . . Sorry, but I have to say, at least Watchdog's creation has an awesome name. You just like the name Arcflare because it's your's minus the small, blood-sucking arachnid. I am not jealous, notice i'm not giving Chess-Master's creator a bad time. Kearif is a corruption of the word "freak" insert an i between the f and the r. swap the e and a. and then spell the whole thing backwards = Kearif.
Wotc_Mark 06-21-06, 08:27 PM	Voting Begins 6/27/2006 http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20060221x MJ
Quicksilver 06-21-06, 10:37 PM	Well, it looks like the last of the dragons has been chosen and they're all lined up and ready to fight. Looking at the match-ups, I see some excellent showdowns and some horrible mismatches. They'll be interesting one way or another. At the outset of the competition, we should ask: who do you think/hope will win? My tip is Arcflare. He's got an easy first round, a great concept that's easy to like and the power to defeat almost anything. On to the match-ups Gan the Rusty the Pseudodragon Wizard vs. Yarzasi-Korin the Spellwarped Rust Dragon This will be a display of awesome wizardry and subtle magical tactics. It's not the size of the dragon in the magic duel, it's the size of the magic in the dragon! Who deserves to win the Rust Belt? I'm going for Yarzi after a long fight. Caululithrax the Vampiric Shadow Dragon Lifedrinker vs. Silversheen the Celestial Blue Dragon A classic light vs. dark confrontation. I'm going for Caululithrax. Silversheen will rush into battle to fight the good fight, then fall to an ambush from the shadows. Chessmaster the White / Black Dragon Psion vs. Palsha the Silver Dragon Samurai Emporer This will be a battle of supreme strategy, the draconic equivalent of an iaido duel. The outcome will be set before the first blow is struck. Two heads being better than one, Chessmaster will win this one. Serves Palsha right for defeating Sivaraak in the vote. :P Arcflare the Twelve-Headed Red Dragon vs. Ar'gth the Pseudodragon Reaping Mauler No contest here. Ar'gth may have had a chance against a normal dragon by grabbing onto its snout, but against Arcflare he'll be hunted down and burnt out of wherever he's hiding. Arilasadetonima the Silver Dragon Dracolich vs. Aragraftex the Pseudonatural Green Dragon Sorcerer/Fleshwarper Fleshless against fleshwarper. Home guardian faces traveller into the unknown. A battle of weird powers indeed, but I think that once the dust settles (or floats away, turns purple or morphs into insects) Aragraftex will be the winner. You learn more when you travel. Lasserous the Grave Wyrm Dread Necromancer vs. Foda Gold Dragon Drunken Master This is a Master of the Dead facing the dead drunk. Lasserous is sure to underestimate the overindulgent Foda, drink being a sin of the living. Foda may even win. Kikkericqqeua the Insectile Black Dragon vs. Kreestahlviendhe the Albino Red Dragon A battle of nature's mistakes with unpronouncable names. The black made her mistake with the Spider Queen and won't make another. Krystalwind is toast. Rampart the Bronze Dragon Vassal of Bahamut/Dragonslayer vs. Korosagra the Kensai Monk Mountain Landwyrm The dragon knight scales the dragon mountain. Korosagra is massively more powerful, but those are exactly the kind of battles Rampart likes best. I see Rampart triumphing after a hard fought battle which destroys the surrounding countryside.
4everDMing 06-22-06, 02:52 PM	Kikkericqqeua the Insectile Black Dragon vs. Kreestahlviendhe the Albino Red Dragon A battle of nature's mistakes with unpronouncable names. The black made her mistake with the Spider Queen and won't make another. Krystalwind is toast. Thanks for the vote!
Wexquif 06-27-06, 03:20 PM	Does anyone else notice many of the dragon summaries on the voting page hardly summarize the dragons' stories at all? I know devs are pressed for space, but in the case of Foda they only included 20% of my story in 5 lines. That hardly explains why/how he's even a drunken master. I wonder if there's any way they can link the specific stories posted on the original submission thread underneath each contestant. Just a thought for future competitions. Yeah, mine got cut in half. Now it doesn't even discribe how he became the "wrestler of halflings". Oh well, I am greatful I haven't been elimenated yet.
Bard-of-all-trades 06-27-06, 03:49 PM	Kikkericqqeua the Insectile Black Dragon vs. Kreestahlviendhe the Albino Red Dragon A battle of nature's mistakes with unpronouncable names. The black made her mistake with the Spider Queen and won't make another. Krystalwind is toast. How exactly does one "toast" a red dragon (albino or not)??!? It's funny, I voted for my opponent because I liked the concept. May the best - uh, let me see ... "one" win.
Watchdog_of_Hades 06-27-06, 08:32 PM	Any Dracolich with the sense to set their phylactery inside the dephs of magma surrounded by brutal fire-based monsters and iron golems gets my vote. Tholo put his phylactery inside the depths of a pool of magma on the Elemental Plane of Fire (thus obviously surrounded by brutal fire-based monsters, though not golems), and he didn't win... *sniff* Oh, well.
Quicksilver 06-28-06, 12:51 AM	How exactly does one "toast" a red dragon (albino or not)??!? I'd suggest exposing said albino dragon to the positive material plane. That should make him crispy on the outside, warm and steamy in the middle. Dragon toast is best served liberally spread with Ochre Jelly.
eye_sac 06-28-06, 02:26 PM	So, we have an extremely smart (and theatrical) psuedodragon wizard against a rust dragon with a fondness for shiny treats. Yeah, real tough choice there.
Arcticflare 06-28-06, 08:29 PM	A wizard versus a spellwarped creature is never a pretty sight. After shaking off the diminuitive dragon's feeble magical attempts at taking his life, Yarzasi-Korin is going to add a little protein to his high-iron diet. My personal favorite is Korosagra. The Mountain Landwyrm is one of the mightiest dragons there are, and the Kensai is one deadly prestige class. With the Kensai's class features, Korosagra will utilize his immense Fortitude to deadly effect. While area effects would usually prove fatal to such a behemoth, Korosagra is likely to simply Withstand them. Will effects might be the only way to get through, and even then, the strength of mind that a draconic Kensai would possess will definitely aid him. Gan the Rusty vs. Yarzasi-Korin (Pseudodragon Wizard)(Spellwarped Rust Dragon) A wizard versus a spellwarped creature is never a pretty sight. After shaking off the diminuitive dragon's feeble magical attempts at taking his life, Yarzasi-Korin is going to add a little protein to his high-iron diet. Caululithrax vs. Silversheen (Vampiric Shadow Dragon Lifedrinker) (Celestial Blue Dragon) While I'm not usually a fan of alignment conflicts, I have to say that I love Blue Dragons. The fact that this is an actual template, and he is more of a vigilante than most, wins my vote for Silversheen. Chessmaster the White / Black Dragon Psion vs. Palsha White/Black Dragon Psion Silver Dragon Samurai Emperor The mind of a samurai is not a thing to be underestimated. The Chessmaster is used to devouring human-sized pieces, but he may have bitten off more than he could chew this time. If Palsha loses the chess game, however, he may end up commiting seppuku to preserve his honour. Arcflare the Twelve-Headed Red Dragon vs. Ar'gth the Pseudodragon Reaping Mauler Arcflare is simply too large to be grappled by a dragon of Ar'gth's size. Even if he did pull it off, there are twelve necks to contend with. I have a feeling that this'll be over fast. Arilasadetonima the Silver Dragon Dracolich vs. Aragraftex the Pseudonatural Green Dragon Sorcerer/Fleshwarper I'm not so sure. Aragraftex gets my vote, in the end. Pseudonatural creatures are a blast, especially when they're further twisted. Lasserous the Grave Wyrm Dread Necromancer vs. Foda Gold Dragon Drunken Master I like Lasserous for this one. A lawful good creature going on the raucous night of drinking required for Drunken Master? I don't buy it. Kikkericqqeua the Insectile Black Dragon vs. Kreestahlviendhe the Albino Red Dragon I'm going with Kikkericqqeua. I'd think that Kreestahlviendhe's red dragon structure would have given him away to anyone with a few ranks in Knowledge (arcane). In addition, his main power was surprising his opponent. Considering Buggy Black won't be relying on fire effects. . . . Rampart the Bronze Dragon Vassal of Bahamut/Dragonslayer vs. Korosagra the Kensai Monk Mountain Landwyrm Faith will not move this mountain. Korosagra is bound to have the strength and sheer endurance to outlast the swifter Bronze until he makes a mistake. If there was ever a dragon just waiting to be splattered, Rampart is it. He also loses points with me for sideboarding. I mean, come on.
Quicksilver 06-28-06, 09:15 PM	So, we have an extremely smart (and theatrical) psuedodragon wizard against a rust dragon with a fondness for shiny treats. Yeah, real tough choice there. Sure it is, because to put it another way, we've got a tiny wannabe dragon puffing himself up with illusions, while Yarzasi-Korin was hatched upon the iron battlefields of Acheron, a warrior to his core. Gan is "too nice to really hurt people". On a more realistic note, I think that people will take the side of the underdog, at least for now.
Arcticflare 06-28-06, 09:19 PM	Sure it is, because to put it another way, we've got a tiny wannabe dragon puffing himself up with illusions, while Yarzasi-Korin was hatched upon the iron battlefields of Acheron, a warrior to his core. Gan is "too nice to really hurt people". On a more realistic note, I think that people will take the side of the underdog, at least for now. Unfortunately, that's probably going to happen. Everybody loves the unrealistically weak underdog. Meepo, anybody? That guy shouldn't have even been able to make the Balance checks from the Tarrasque's footfalls.
Slagger the Chuul 06-29-06, 11:21 AM	Pride wouldn't normally allow a true dragon to back down, but being paired with a pipsqueak in the first round is almost an insult to your proud draconic heritage. While I don't think Gan would have a hope of taking Yarzasi-Korin in an actual fight, in these circumstances I think he could probably buy him off with a tasty magical bribe. If not, the first battle of this competition could end in a footprint. :)
Krede_the_Mighty 06-29-06, 01:21 PM	My apologies to those who have been looking for me in past months. I had to go underground to achieve my nefarious ends. Don't tell anyone, but I've rigged the whole contest. The judges didn't pay any attention to a duck wandering about the battlefield, and they are fools! I am the Don, no, the King of Katastrophe! I am Krede the Mighty, the most powerful duck (dammit) I mean dragon in the world! The cafe shall continue to prosper, and the money it has already brought in has allowed me to offer unprecedented sums to the competitors. The winnings, however, will be even greater. I shall layeth the quack down yet. Oh yes, and ye shall smell what the flock is cooking.
Sikyanakotik 06-29-06, 04:22 PM	Poor Gan. I like him, and I think in general he could have done well, but pitting a wizard against someone who has trained specifically to defeat arcanists... well, this one won't be pretty. Yarsazi-Korin will likely see this not as a battle, but as an all-you-can-eat magic buffet! Advantage: Yarsazi-Korin. Well, I guess Gan might have a chance coming up the loser's bracket. Maybe.
TheyCallMeTomu 06-30-06, 03:28 PM	Great, the Red won. So now we have two Red Dragons in the competition and no White Dragon :nonono: . I'm beggining to have my doubts about this competition... Zevox If it makes you feel better, Chessmaster is 1/2 white dragon as written. That being said, if he was put in the white dragon category, instead of the gemstone category, there probably would have been one more psionic dragon in this thing, and one less red! If he was put into the black dragon category... was that the one with the Fleshwarper? Yah, he probably would have lost. Honestly, I don't think Chessmaster was my best submission, but the others were either overpowered or too "Planes-y" like Kain the Blood Dragon... Anyway, for anyone so humbly concerned, I originally designed Chessmaster to be a gestalt psion, so he doesn't necessarily have +20 character levels (HD wise) in Egoist and Telepath, and I never intended em to have spellcasting either... sort of a spells for Psi thing, with a bit of a boost from gestalt on the side. I actually have a full write up of the Chessmaster, incidentally, as I'm using him in my own campaign; heavy focus on breath weapon usage and protective psionic abilities if forced into combat, though with a few Stygian powers in case he has to deal with those pesky dracoliches...
TheyCallMeTomu 06-30-06, 03:37 PM	How exactly does one "toast" a red dragon (albino or not)??!? It's funny, I voted for my opponent because I liked the concept. May the best - uh, let me see ... "one" win. Toasting a red dragon requires the usage of the Searing Spell metamagic feat, located in Sandstorm. It allows a character to use +1 spell level in order to have fire immunity be only 50% effective against a fire spell. Use Corrupt Spell or Consecrate spell, you have +2 spell level, and the fire spell is actually 75% effective!
TheyCallMeTomu 06-30-06, 04:12 PM	I hate to spam the boards with incessent message after message, but a quick reminder when voting: things don't necessarily have to be about combat capabilities, nor does it have to be a popularity contest. Perhaps our pseudodragon friend can simply trick the rusty one by offering him a large quantity of adamantine, covered in oodles and oodles of Deadly POISON!!! Of course, poison is traditionally evil... what's the alignment on that Psuedodragon again? All I know is that Chessmaster's first move is going to be to challange his samurai opponent to a game of chess, because violence is "unnessecary when a game of skill can determine the outcome." Of course, since that's horribly weighted towards Chessmaster's favor, so he would sugguest perhaps an alternate game. A mental sugguestion for the game "go" would be placed in his samurai opponent's mind (after all, such is a game that logically our asian friend would have a leg up in), but Go (with its black and white pieces) is yet another game that Chessmaster has studied intensely. Anyway, the main reason the sugguestion for go is made is because Shogi would likely be a more even match. See? Sneaky schemes!
Sikyanakotik 06-30-06, 04:35 PM	I hate to spam the boards with incessent message after message, but a quick reminder when voting: things don't necessarily have to be about combat capabilities, nor does it have to be a popularity contest. Perhaps our pseudodragon friend can simply trick the rusty one by offering him a large quantity of adamantine, covered in oodles and oodles of Deadly POISON!!! Of course, poison is traditionally evil... what's the alignment on that Psuedodragon again? All I know is that Chessmaster's first move is going to be to challange his samurai opponent to a game of chess, because violence is "unnessecary when a game of skill can determine the outcome." Of course, since that's horribly weighted towards Chessmaster's favor, so he would sugguest perhaps an alternate game. A mental sugguestion for the game "go" would be placed in his samurai opponent's mind (after all, such is a game that logically our asian friend would have a leg up in), but Go (with its black and white pieces) is yet another game that Chessmaster has studied intensely. Anyway, the main reason the sugguestion for go is made is because Shogi would likely be a more even match. See? Sneaky schemes! So long as the loser bows out honourably, that'd make an exceptional change of pace. Of course, if Palsha wins, or catches the Chessmaster cheating, that seems pretty unlikely to happen. Perhaps if they signed a Contract of Nepthas first, or Palsha had a clerical retainer cast Mark of Justice on them both.
TheyCallMeTomu 06-30-06, 04:47 PM	Chessmaster plays by the rules, but like any masterful lawful evil entity, he knows just how to MAKE the rules, so it's unlikely he'd be caught in any trap. Ultimately, Chessmaster would be willing to exploit his opponents weakness of having character, and moreover encourage him that pursueing things forwards isn't in his best interest anyway...
Sikyanakotik 06-30-06, 07:48 PM	True, but you did say he's never lost before, so he might not take a fair defeat well.
TheyCallMeTomu 06-30-06, 09:56 PM	Fair enough. He normally doesn't lose because he reads his opponents mind, and is capable of extrapolating a perfect strategy to oppose it. Against a dedicated samurai, he might have difficulty overcoming his opponent's will, which would cause him to have to rely completely on his intellectual prowess (as a psion, he's got a high intelligence score). I might understand the Samurai dragon using Greater Kiai Shout and similar intimidation techniques to shake Chessmaster of his nerv; like you said, he's not used to having his grandiose skill challanged. But then again, I've got an intelligence score in the mid teens I'd say, and his is in the 20s, so I'm sure he'd already take that into account; if the chances of him loosing were too high, I'm sure he'd not make the offer, and resort to more mundane means of conquest... perhaps unleashing a series of pawns upon the silver samurai... wasn't that an X men villian or something?
TheyCallMeTomu 07-02-06, 01:33 PM	There needs to be more lively discussion about the matchups! Chop chop people! Chop chop! Let's see... how does a pseudodragon illusionist beat a Rust Dragon... would that illusionist be a beguiler if the designer had the PHB2 at the ready at the creation?
ajdragonfire 07-02-06, 03:41 PM	So, we have an extremely smart (and theatrical) psuedodragon wizard against a rust dragon with a fondness for shiny treats. Yeah, real tough choice there. Theatrics work for me. Battles need not be won by butting heads. When you're enemy has more obvious power, you fight with your mind. If you can get the upper hand by looking gigantic, by all means do it. Plus I like the little guy, as an actor myself, a theatrical dragon is appreciated. --ajdragonfire
ajdragonfire 07-02-06, 03:52 PM	My personal favorite for this competition is Caululithrax. For the most part, I go off of concepts, and Caululithrax seems like the best to me. The Silver Dragon Dracolich, while it does have a good concept, beat my Vrr'ragath, so I hold a grudge there. Predicted winners: Gan the Rusty Caululithrax Chessmaster Arcflare Agraftex Lasserous Kikkeriqquea Rampart
TheyCallMeTomu 07-02-06, 08:32 PM	Heh. Chessmaster's third place on yer list? Cool. I got the impression that everyone's pretty polarized about Chessmaster: either ya love him for being a nifty use of templates and psionics, or you hate him for stealing the gemstone dragon and for being yet another chess creature. Course, Chessmaster's the one true white dragon in the campaign...
RavinRay 07-02-06, 09:04 PM	There needs to be more lively discussion about the matchups! And something's happened to ARDy... what, did someone muzzle him up? Or is the ever-silent Chronepsis now watching over?
Nelagend 07-03-06, 11:55 AM	Well, just based on strength and matchups (which is what I consider the most legitimate way to do this) I have the following matchups Yarsazi > Gan in a walk Silversheen > Caululithrax... but it's close. This one comes down to who rolls crits. Chessmaster > Palsha via no acid immunity for Palsha but cold immunity for Chessmaster Arcflare > Ar'gth in one breath attack Arilasad > Aragraftex from sheer power, although I really LIKE Aragraftex, I don't think he can beat a dracolich especially since he's using poison gas as a breath weapon against undead. Lasserous > Foda because Foda's too wierdly multiclassed to win at equal CR against much of anything Kikkeric > Krystal because Krystal's sole advantage is only useful against foes that use fire attacks, and Kikkeric's advantage is useful against Krystal. Korosagra > Rampart because while Rampart has a nice attack bonus with those paladin levels, Korosagra probably has the AC of a god, and Rampart doesn't. Korosagra wins in 3 or 4 flurries of blows. 2nd round, I think Yarsazi vs Silversheen is a push, but Arcflare definitely wins through Lasserous beats Arilasad by matchup - he's going to beat an undead. Korosagra beats Kikkeric in 3 flurries of blows and a godlike AC. 3rd round Arcflare walks due to sick breath weapon power Korosagra beats Lasserous in 3 flurries of blows and a godlike AC and touch AC vs his minions. In the finals, Korosagra survives Arcflare's 12 headed blast due to improved evasion. (If he doesn't have enough monk levels for this ability, this match will be a push.) Then he blasts Arcflare's relatively low AC with flurries until the match is over. Anyone got combat-related arguments against these results?
TheyCallMeTomu 07-03-06, 12:47 PM	Hey now, if you're going to go with strength, it's only fair to assume equivalent CRs. So if Gan the Rusty is going to utterly obliterate the pseudodragon... just assume the Pseudodragon has a bunch of levels in Red Wizard and Arch Mage to boost his caster level for illusion spells! BOOST HIS CASTER LEVEL!!!
TheyCallMeTomu 07-03-06, 02:38 PM	So what, Chessmaster loses in round two against Arcflare? Are you nuts? Arcflare's breath weapon may appear powerful from a raw damage perspective, but Chessmaster's Energy Conversion egoist power would give him resistances to Arcflare's attack, not once but twelve times!
Nelagend 07-03-06, 05:47 PM	I didn't think of that... although you are assuming he took Energy Adaptation on his powers list. Now wait a minute. That's a 7th-level Psion/Wilder ability. Even if you assume the dragon's natural caster level stacks with psion levels to determine manifester levels (which I wouldn't), just, say, a mature adult black dragon gaining manifester levels as unassociated would be CR 18 in order to manifest at 13. Then he gains +2 CR for the multiheaded template, making him CR 20. I don't know if Permanent Improved Schism will increase CR, although I don't think it will. So, we're at CR 20, and he has resistance to fire 30. Now, at CR 20, what is Arcflare? He has 1 head-based special attack and 11 additional heads, so we're getting +7 CR. This is actually a bit of reverse twinking, as he could have had 1 lower CR with one fewer head. However, if we look at the Red Dragon entry in the MM, we can see that at CR 20 he's a 12-headed young adult red dragon with a 10d10 breath weapon. He's gaining 22 HD from the template, so he's actually 41 HD, and his Con goes from 21 to 43 from the template (!), giving his breath weapon a save DC of 46. Note that BOTH the HD AND the Con increase the save DC. So, now he breathes on Chessmaster, who has the fused HP of a 8th-level mature adult black dragon and an 8th-level old white dragon (here I'm being nice and really giving this side of him an extra CR, making him an 18 + 19 instead of 18+18). As I read fusion, both halves have vulnerability to fire. Thus, Chessmaster's white half: 276 (old white) + 8d4 + 40 = 336 Chessmaster's black half: 253 (mature black) + 8d4 + 40 = 313, total HP 649 Chessmaster's Reflex save: +14 (old white) + 2 (8th-level psion) = +16 Arcflare's Save DC: 46, 5% chance for Chessmaster to save against each head. Average damage for a failed save (10d10-30, minimum 0, x 1.5 for vulnerability): slightly over 37.5 I didn't calculate exactly what the probability is of landing under 30, but when running 10d10 100 consecutive times, I only got 3 results under 30 for a total of 12 "wasted" resistance, meaning that the increase in breath weapon damage is well under 1 point per hit. Average damage for a successful save: 0.13 in 10000 trials (computer generated). Essentially 0. Thus, since on average Chessmaster will fail 11.4 saves, he's taking an average of 427.5 damage. He can survive this breath with 1/3 of his original HP left, but if Arcflare gets a second breath, Chessmaster's checkmated. On another note, I just checked my MM, and apparently green dragons do acid damage. So Aragraftix could potentially win into the second round (it's still close). If he wins into the second I think he has a good matchup against Lasserous but still loses to Korosagra in the third.
TheyCallMeTomu 07-03-06, 06:52 PM	10d10 is 55 average damage: with energy resistance 30, that's 25 HP per hit, assuming a failed save. That's 300 damage exactly. And I assume he took it because I made the character (I have full stats for him). As far as CR goes, I typically assume that Chessmaster has the CR of a white dragon and a black dragon, each without sorcerer casting levels but instead gestalted into psions. They have a certain overlap of feats, and any effects that affect one body affects both bodies, but effects that affect one mind affects only one or the other. Creating the character was really weird: the Fusion/Schism effect was just a DnD justification... anyway, with Fusion, you're talking about something with hundreds of HP, not to mention the Vigor Power. Add to that the capability of a high enough manifester Egoist to use Timeless Body, and those focusing on direct and sudden attacks are simply a bad idea. Meanwhile, surviving one round , Chessmaster suddenly has the capability of using mental attacks against Arcflare, and while having multiple heads, he doesn't have so many minds. Anyway, you totally forgot about Precognition (defensive) which is one of White's powers, which would add about 3 to 5 to his reflex save. Add that to Evade Burst (allowing for Improved Evasion), and he'd suffer half damage against one of those attacks. Perhaps more useful would simply be his ability to attack psionically and then have Black relocate himself to a point where he's no longer in range for the fire beath; Psionic Dimension door can teleport hundreds of feet, after all. Edit: Good point about the Energy Vulnerability part; my original design for Chessmaster had him take the Suppress/Overcome weakness feats from Draconomicon. I have it on paper, though the CR there is well over 20 Edit: Though I think that brings up a good point regarding whether or not multiplying a given dragon's breath weapon potential by 12+ is really only worth a +7 CR modification. After all, a dragon's CR is supposed to increase by 2 per 3 HD alone, and that's 22 HD AND a mass improvement of its own natural special abilities... "adjusting for equal CR" becomes a problem when CR values are rather dubious. That's why I made Chessmaster's design to be relatively ambiguous. We know he's capable of manifesting at least 8th level powers, and I go for 9th just for Timeless Body and Microcosm, but other than it's variable. Edit: In retrospect, I looked over things and realized that White appears to have the power Mind over Energy (For some reason I had it listed as null energy field... was probably thinking the psionic equivalent of antimagic sphere)... personally I always thought that that (much like the spell Energy Immunity) was overpowered, but hell what do I know. Anyway, it just goes to show that focusing entirely on one energy form is a bit of a bad choice... psions are jackasses like that. Anyway, that of course leaves the AC issue, and despite the INSANE POWER of twelve bite attacks per round, a good inertial armor and Precognition (defensive) should guard against those; though attacks still likely hit, at the very least they won't have much power attack behind them. Edit: Okay now I feel really stupid. Apparently, he has Energy Nullification Field, and Mind over energy, and that's how I confused myself. Yeesh. Anyway, Arcflare is a two trick pony: multiple bite attacks (which I'll get to later), and fire. The fire is easy to counter act, and Arcflare would be vulnerable to white's breath weapon, not having spells to gain elemental immunity (though having a caster level of 5 to 9, depending on practiced spellcaster, he may have the spell Energy Resistance in tow, and may well have Overcome/Suppress Weakness as well). So really it'd be a fight of biting versus the assorted energy powers and acid abilities of Chessmaster. As a 12 headed monstrosity, our earlier figures were 41 HD if I recall: that's +41 to hit, -2 for size, but +10 for strength, so that's a huge +49; on average it hits AC 59 and deals 2d8+10 damage. As an egoist, Black has Biofeedback, which covers about 6 of that damage, so that's an average of 13 per hit. Prior to Buff's, Chessmaster's AC is something around 38, so he obviously needs to make that back: using Inertial Armor he can get up to his mid to high 40s (Hey, there's an overpowered power), and then Precognition (Defensive) adds another 4 to 5 (So that's around 50). Add in Mental Barrier and you have it up higher. So it's about 126 damage a round, assuming that Arcflare can make a full round of bite attacks and move in a round, seeing as how Arcflare can move and manifest two powers each round, and isn't going to stay in melee (and likely would just teleport away ASAP)... I will admit, Chessmaster's offense isn't looking so great against Arcflare. It'd likely be an endurance match. My guess would be that eventually Chessmaster would start biting and clawing heads off, and then using Quicken Breath to Acid blast the lot of them, cutting down his opponents offense. He'd use Temporal Acceleration to retreat and heal (using True Metabolism to heal 10 HP per round, Body Adjustment for a bit more if PP willing, and perhaps most importantly using Vigor to renew temporary HP), and continue his offense following this. Edit: I would have thrown Iron Body (psionic) into that mix, but my original character design had him not taking that power (he instead has stygian veil, which'll be useful come battling the various dracoliches that a psion would normally flounder against)
I_Cant_Think_Of_A_Name 07-04-06, 12:31 AM	So the first rounds going to be : Rusty vs Rust ! This will cerntainly prove entertaining
Nelagend 07-04-06, 01:33 PM	Oh, so you're the guy who wrote him, that explains something... Seriously though, I'd like to see his stats. That would make it a lot easier to tell what he can and can't do at CR 20. Or whatever CR you're statting him at.
TheyCallMeTomu 07-04-06, 08:49 PM	I never gave him an official CR, because the way I handle XP in the campaign I'm using him in is a bit... special. Lemme check... He's listed as being an EL 23, but that's just an estimation... the actual physical design wasn't done using fusion, but rather just as a multiheaded template... he has 750 HP (375 per head if you're gonna specifically target them), AC of 53 (touch 6) after Inertial Armor (I nerfed Inertial Armor in my campaign to +4, +1 per 3 PP, instead of per +2 PP, otherwise he'd have AC 56): his base attack is +36 with grapple +57... attack progression is 2 bites +51 (6d6+16) and 2 bites +51 (6d6+16), 2 claws +46 (2d8+8), 2 Wings +46 (2d6+8), Tail Slap +46 (3d8+24)... Strength 42 Dexterity 10 Constitution 34 Intelligence 26 Wisdom 21 Charisma 20 Fortitude +39 Reflex +27 Will +32 Body Feats Improved Initiative*, Combat Reflexes*, Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Epic Fortitude, Epic Reflexes, Epic Will, Improved Toughness, Endure Blows, Suppress Weakness, Overcome Weakness White Head Maximize Breath, Clinging Breath, Recover Breath, Shape Breath, Spreading Breath, Extend Spreading Breath, Improved Natural Attack (Bite), Ability Focus (Breath Weapon) Black Head Clinging Breath, Quicken Breath, Recover Breath, Shape Breath, Spreading Breath, Extend Spreading Breath, Ability Focus (Breath Weapon), Improved Natural Attack (Bite) White’s Psionic Powers 1 Inertial Armor, Charm, 3 2 Sugguestion, Read Thoughts, Brain Lock, Aversion 3 Mental Barrier, Dispel Psionics, 2 4 Schism*, Dominate (Psionic), Mindlink (Thieving), 1 5 Mind Probe, Metaconcert, Suppress Schism, Shatter Mind Blank, Incarnate 6 Contingency, Energy Nullification Field, Mind over Energy 7 Crisis of Life, Divert Teleport, Insanity 8 Mind Seed, Greater Teleport, Mind blank 9 Microcosm, Apopsi, Urge Extermination Black’s Psionic Powers 1 Thicken Skin, Precognition (Offensive), Precognition (Defensive), Prescience (Offensive), Vigor, Stygian Discernment, Force Screen 2 Animal Affinity, Biofeedback, Energy Adaptation (Specified), Stygian Ray 3 Hustle, Body Adjustment, Body Purification, Dispel Psionics, Exhalation of the Bronze Dragon, Dispel Psionics 4 Freedom of Movement 5 Psionic Revivify, Restore Extremity, Stygian Dominion, Adapt Body 6 Restoration, Breath of the Black Dragon, Temporal Acceleration, Stygian Bolt, Fuse Flesh 7 Moment of Prescience, Energy Conversion 8 True Metabolism, Stygian Veil 9 Timeless Body, Affinity Field, Stygian Conflaguraiton, Assimilate, Reality Revision The numbers are where I couldn't think of what powers to take... like I said, I prefered to keep his exact level ambiguous: going into specific numbers vs numbers is one thing, but the campaign is really more about thematics; whether or not a 12 headed firebreath can beat an effective pair of psions. The answer, of course is, "it depends." If that 12 heads of fire deals crud for fire damage, and the psion is at least powerful enough to resist 10, or 20, or 30 fire damage (2nd level powers make that possible), the psion probably lives. If the fire damage ISN'T cruddy, or if the psion isn't capable of resisting the damage, the fire breather probably wins. If the psion is just capable of being immune to the damage straight up (as is the case here) then it becomes more about biting. Technically, Chessmaster can get his AC into the 60s, which is one of the reasons why I didn't want to give the official stats I actually users (my campaign is a bit high powered). Stop working on the specifics and think more along the lines of thematics, or else you get into these weird super high powered grudge matches. Edit: Officially, if you wanted to make Arcflare's "CR equal to Chessmasters" I guess it's only fair to see what chessmaster's CR should be... I actually used a black dragon and then gave him the better traits of a white dragon (which are none) and added some +5 inherit bonuses (Reality Revision is useful like that)... the additional +3 is something of a mystery I'll admit. Beyond that, he has 5 manifester levels greater than his caster level, so technically that's +5 CR, so I guess officially he's "supposed" to be in the 30s, but I don't think that's realistic. If you wanted to make Arcflare CR 30, you'd make him ancient, which obviously radically increases his bite and breath weapon abilities... the breath weapon remains unimportant unless he plans on dispelling Mind over energy, which Chessmaster could just renew as an immediate action, but I can't ignore that Arcflare WOULD have a whopping +70 to attack then... allowing for power attack. Really, Chessmaster would simply have to make sure he can not be assaulted by a full melee. This means that he has to use cover to prevent Arcflare from being able to charge him (I'm assuming that a CR 30 Arcflare would have picked up Dire Charge). Once again, Timeless body helps Black in the worst case scenario, protecting the black head and the body from attack, but if Arcflare were to attack the white head specifically that wouldn't protect against it... it'd be in an interesting matchup, but as a general rule, two actions are better than one, and I think Chessmasters ability to retreat and attack in the same round would take Arcflare down, even with an insane physical power matchup. If nothing else, Chessmaster can use reality revision to become incorporeal and be immune to physical attacks entirely... arcflare could then resort to spells, but then Chessmaster would have the definitive advantage, having the ability to manifest two powers a round, not including two swift actions and two immediate actions. Edit: My point is, as much as my actions seem to sugguest otherwise, the purpose of WotC's ambiguity is that this shouldn't just be a grudgematch of violence, but rather a contest of popularity, style, and backstory. Arcflare is a bit simplistic but effective stylistically... but in that aspect, Arcflare doesn't really have anything more than Chessmaster, considering they both have creative examples for their multiheaded aspects... Edit: Officially speaking, the easiest way to get the manifester level up is actually to add age categories: +3 age categories adds 6 to the CR, which is the same as adding 6 levels in psion, but gives rediculously better benefits. Moreover, when I built Chessmaster, I didn't add additional HD due to psion levels, but rather took a more "gestalt" view to increasing its Manifester level, so a more realistic CR is 25, so Arcflare would have to be mature adult... so we're actualyl talking about an attack bonus of +56 and significantly less damage. The AC 56 can be countered by Precognition (Defensive) and Mental Barrier (Total AC can get up to 66+ easily), so melee becomes significantly less dangerous as well. A mature adult Red Dragon has 9th level casting, possibly 13th level caster level with Practiced Spellcaster... I suppose Arcflare could use Scale Weakening in order to reduce Chessmaster's AC by 5 points to increase the effectiveness of his attacks... but that takes too long! Edit (Again): In retrospect, if Arcflare had a high enough caster level to use Breath Weapon Substitution Mind over energy against fire would be useless (though the various other forms of protection wouldn't be). If he had the ability to cast Breath Weapon Admixture, THAT would be insanely deadly. Hmmmm... At the very least, if Arcflare was able to cast Breath Weapon Substitution, he'd be able to make ONE of the twelve breaths NOT fire... but really, Chessmaster has enough HP that 14d10 electrical damage (or sonic damage, I guess) isn't going to kill him. And Energy conversion is still an option, and building up 150 points of electrical or sonic (or both?) damage isn't necessarily the best way for Arcflare to defeat Chessmaster's defenses... Edit: Huh... I put Dispel Psionics on there twice... I guess Black could trade it out for Ectoplasmic form or the like. Hmmm... he should have taken Empathic Feedback: that'd be 18 damage per hit that Arcflare got on him... so that's 216 damage per round. Reminds me of Karmic Strike... heh. Edit: and here I forgot about the power of Temporal Acceleration... and then there's Styygian Conflaguration which could deal 1d4+1 negative energy levels! Enough of those, and Arcflare's dead! until he uses Death Ward... which he could, cause he's a red dragon... drat!
Nelagend 07-05-06, 10:29 AM	Yeah, quite frankly, anything over CR 22 or so is a mess anyway. I happen to like Arcflare's theme more, but I think that's mostly because I'd have a royal headache playing Chessmaster as a DM. Arcflare can be set up as a very powerful opponent that the PCs can handle by using carefully prepared tactics. Chessmaster is somebody you really want to find a way to one shot, because you can't predict his actions well as a PC.
TheyCallMeTomu 07-05-06, 11:15 AM	Really, Chessmaster is just a white dragon psion and a black dragon psion that share a single HP pool and have a limit on their mobility. I just dislike Arcflare because I've found that using the Multiheaded template as officially written is grossly overpowered (I usually insist that anything with a breath weapon has to somehow use the breath weapon in various non-overlapping directions). For instance, my Cerberus design (Kaiju advanced multiheaded hell hound) didn't have a triple strength breath weapon...
TheyCallMeTomu 07-05-06, 03:14 PM	But anyway, enough about Chessmaster vs. Arcflare. There's a decent chance that Ol' Chessy won't pass the first round (people love samurai, after all). Anyone have any thoughts on Week 2's matchup? I voted for Silversheen mostly because I'm not particuarly fond of vampiric dragons in general.
SOPI 07-07-06, 12:24 AM	I voted Silversheen because I'm a sucker for blue dragons. That and the other guy (Calicraxycoocoo, or whatever) seems overdone to me. I like it simple. (Same reason why I voted for ol' Gan the Rusty last week.)
TheyCallMeTomu 07-07-06, 08:35 AM	I like blues as well. Truth be told, were it Chessmaster vs. Silversheen, and Chessmaster wasn't my creation, I'd be tempted to vote blue anyway!
tharivol266 07-07-06, 09:22 AM	i voted against silversheen. he just seems boring. and besides the whole redeemed villian was already done the first time around.
Ossian 07-07-06, 10:59 AM	Think about what happens to the canine teeth of a human when he becomes a vampire. Got it? Now, think the same of a dragon. Calululitrax can just bite silversheen's head off! PLUS: Thank the Gods that the Vampire that actually transformed the dragon did not intervene in any tornament. I mean, to bite THROUGH 3 inches thik scales (plus the fat and the muscles underneath) what sort of monstar it must have been.... Ossian
Sikyanakotik 07-07-06, 01:57 PM	Since Silversheen has no class levels, I'm just going to come out and assume he's a great wyrm, which means he has access to the Sunburst spell. One failed save and the vampire goes poof. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/Sikyanakotik/koboldgrin.gif
TheyCallMeTomu 07-07-06, 03:34 PM	Since Silversheen has no class levels, I'm just going to come out and assume he's a great wyrm, which means he has access to the Sunburst spell. One failed save and the vampire goes poof. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/Sikyanakotik/koboldgrin.gif DC against that Sunburst is, what, mid twenties? Well, as a vampiric dragon, the reflex save would be better than most, but still, most dragons have base saves in the teens to low twenties... it'd take a fumble. On the flip side, if Silversheen would be capable of blasting it once a round for ten rounds, he'd likely kick butt. On the other hand, don't vampiric dragons have level drain? Hmm... honestly, I don't care for the redeemed villian thing either... so I guess I wouldn't vote against Chessmaster if it was vs. Silversheen even if Chessmaster wasn't my creation after all. The cliche of redeemed villian vs the cliche of chessmaster. WHO. WOULD. THEORETICALLY. WIN?!? Omfg nobody knows.
tharivol266 07-07-06, 09:17 PM	i think id have to say that silversheen would just whither away and die if introduced to the insane amount of evil that chessmaster is.
TheyCallMeTomu 07-08-06, 12:01 PM	i think id have to say that silversheen would just whither away and die if introduced to the insane amount of evil that chessmaster is. Interesting interpretation. I don't know if that's a compliment or an insult towards Chessmaster... heh. Ahh well.
tharivol266 07-08-06, 02:43 PM	its a compliment. i think chessmaster is an amazing idea.
TheyCallMeTomu 07-08-06, 04:53 PM	w00t. Hopefully everyone else feels the same way... Go go chessmaster! <starts singing power rangers music with aberrant words for no apparent reason>
SOPI 07-11-06, 02:26 PM	The Chessmaster, in my mind, is a dragon with both the white dragon's headfin, and the black dragon's ram horns. It's skin is checkered black and white like a chessboard, and it sits at an immense chessboard, playing against the PCs, using its mind to move the peices. It is the kind of refined, creepy, unique villain that needs to be seen more these days. I vote Chessmaster.
gomibako_ninja 07-11-06, 04:19 PM	Chessmaster is a perfect major villain for a campaign, and the character design is wonderful. Palsha is just a dragon wh is a samurai, with a basic character anyone could think up. So Chessmaster wins in flavor. Now, in combat, for Palsha to use his katana he would have to be in humanoid form which would severely limit his options. So either many of his samurai class features would be useless or he would be at a huge disadvantage. Also, if Chessmaster challenges him at chess he would most likely have to accept due to his code of honor. And chessmaster would win at chess easily. Chessmaster FTW.
Watchdog_of_Hades 07-11-06, 04:33 PM	Vote for Palsha! Since people seem to like the Chessmaster more, then if Palsha wins, Arcflare will have an easier time crushing the second round of competition - not that there's any doubt of him winning, just that I don't want him to be tired when he's in the third round.
Helian 07-11-06, 05:35 PM	Since Silversheen has no class levels, I'm just going to come out and assume he's a great wyrm, which means he has access to the Sunburst spell. One failed save and the vampire goes poof. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/Sikyanakotik/koboldgrin.gif Well, this may be true, but with the Lifedrinker class build, he would be immune to his vampiric weaknesses.
Lycanthrope_Paragon 07-11-06, 08:58 PM	Yah lets see, mind reading vs lawful honor and a challenge to ones skill in combat-oriented thinking. Yah sad to say the Oreo psion is gona eat him alive. esspecialy sence his martial weapon profs and spells wont save him from the mental powere of his foe.
thepsionicbard 07-12-06, 01:26 PM	:OMG! Their people, the chess peices are people!!! :crazy: now thats out of my system chessmaster all the way :fight!: vs :mage: (psion) = :ghosted: :fight!:
TheyCallMeTomu 07-12-06, 04:39 PM	:OMG! Their people, the chess peices are people!!! :crazy: now thats out of my system chessmaster all the way :fight!: vs :mage: (psion) = :ghosted: :fight!: Is that supposed to be read as the mage dies and the fighter is triumphent over the corpse, or <Dead> <Fighter>? And indeed, the pieces are in fact people ;D
TheyCallMeTomu 07-14-06, 02:24 AM	So... how about some Chessmaster kicking butt action? w00t w00t?
TheyCallMeTomu 07-15-06, 01:03 PM	You know, I feel as if this whole forum switch fiasco is drawing attention away from Chessmasters GLORIOUS BATTLES!!! Did anyone notice that there was virtually nothing about the second week's match on the site? Gan and The rust dragon got more attention =/
Guardian5 07-16-06, 01:37 AM	Palsha has done more with the power he has than Chessmaster and should win. Chessmaster sits in his cave and plays chess against who? He eats all his opponents. He probably wins most of the matches with a four move checkmate. What sane person would want to become good at chess? Becoming known for quality chess games makes you a target for kidnapping and eventual digestion by Chessmaster. Now Palsha has run an Empire, commanded legions, found and lost loved ones, and like the great George Washington has relinquished power without bloodshed. Ok, maybe the George Washington bit is stretching, but at least he isn't sitting in a cave playing by himself. :D I like all the designs this competition is great.
TheyCallMeTomu 07-16-06, 11:43 AM	To be fair, Chessmaster only challanges adventurers that come after him to a game of chess after he's already subdued them. Good point on that though; though there's no reason ol' chessy couldn't be using clairvoyance to survey the surface of the world to treat the entire planet like a game of chess... it's nowhere in the write up I did for him (and certainly not in the little blip). In the end, Chessmaster is just slightly more versatile because his role isn't quite as solidified. Oh well.
tharivol266 07-18-06, 12:12 PM	in a fight. chessmaster wins (he is immune to ppalsa's breath and has one that palsha isn't immune to). in appearances chessmaster wins (no matter how you picture him he's still cool) and in the confines of this competition as far as i see chessmaster will have a clean sweep.
TheyCallMeTomu 07-18-06, 01:56 PM	I'm personally flabbergasted that Palsha won, and moreso, that he won by a huge margin. I myself voted a few times for Chessmaster (The voting talley is kind of kooky and doesn't seem to track IPs consistently) so I can't help but wonder whether or not Palsha had someone voting for him in mass... Bah. Well, at least WotC noted it as "an upset" I demand a recount! Or a double elimination bracket anyway. I won't deny, people love a good samurai, but I can't help but feel the whole fiasco with the message boards probably hurt Chessmaster's chances... hmph.
Sikyanakotik 07-18-06, 04:31 PM	After three days, both sides finally pass. The points are tallied, and the announcer reads the score. Palsha wins by two-and-a-half points. Chessmaster: WHAT!? How did I lose? I control more territory! Palsha: Yes, but I earn additional points for moving second. You have lost on komi. Chessmaster: But... but I can't lose! I never lose! I will devour your mi... Palsha: You are the one who suggested the noble game of Go, are you not? Are you saying you will no longer honour our agreement? Chessmaster: I... no. Palsha: Then leave, while you still have your honour. And so Chessmaster slinks away, defeated. Ready to plot his revenge on the Platinum Emperor no doubt.
Lycanthrope_Paragon 07-18-06, 05:17 PM	Ok, this just became a popularity contest. thetre is NO way physicaly or plot wise chessmaster could have lost. even with the flavorful ideas submitted here even if the Plat emperior won the (EVIL. VERY EVIL) chessmaster would have broke their prmomise, and stomped that good dragon into the ground. dont get me wrong, i love to wave the good guy pennet around her and root for justice but this was just unlikely to the point of aburdity. Oh well moveing on i guess. Whos for arcflare. i mean come on he's against an opponet 1/8th his size and he is a wreasler... this is like minime vs Andre the giant. (and before any of you smucks bring it up, the only reason hogan beat him is because it was pre-palnned that way)
TheyCallMeTomu 07-18-06, 07:33 PM	Pah. And here I wanted Chessmaster to do well, so I could be good at something for once... I don't exactly have much in the way of accomplishments, but I can't excell even at this <fountain tears> Heh. I even wanted to use "Created Chessmaster, winner of the 2006 Creature Competition on the Wizards/dnd website" on my resume when applying to work at WotC... but that dream shall never come true... ahh, I was a fool to submit a piece of my own creation for such a dubious cause! Truly, the heavens are damning me for my own hubris. Curse you Pelor!
Helian 07-18-06, 07:47 PM	Well, although I am surprized Chessmaster lost, I have to say I voted against him. One reason was simply the idea of an entity lording over a chess board has been done before. Alot. Second, is the fact that it took the place of a valid gemstone dragon. (to which I am fond of) Chessmaster is an awsome dragon for sure, but for my own selfish reasons, I had to vote Palsha. Maybe it WAS simply due to the fondness people have for Samurai, who knows. I guess the katana's power is unmatched, LOL. *no katana rants please* Although one other reason might have been the 12-13 posts from TheyCallMeTomu on this page alone pumping his own entry that sank Chessmaster. *edit* err page 8 rather, I got bumped to 9th. lol, figures -nudge nudge, wink wink-
TheyCallMeTomu 07-18-06, 08:05 PM	I guess it's possible, but I don't honestly think people would be turned off that much just because I support my own creation... this isn't politics here. Ahh well... so long job with WotC earned by a really stupid aspect of a resume
TheyCallMeTomu 07-18-06, 08:47 PM	I really have to admit... I didn't even like Chessmaster that much. The entire chess set up was just kind of lame. The thing I DID like about him was his duality aspect; it was the ability to combine the more physical aspects (egoism) with the more mental/cerebral aspects (telepathy) of psionics into a single entity. The chess theme was just a convient tool, and as much as it garned some interest, he might have simply been better off without it. If I had had Chessmaster be a pair of gemstone dragons, say sapphire and emerald, and developed him as Id and Superego, or perhaps had him have three heads, named Id, Ego, and Superego (Ardent/Psion/Wilder) that might have worked better... hmmm... that definitely would have beenb etter... oh wait, Fusion only works on two entities... hmmmm....
Helian 07-18-06, 09:25 PM	Stop beating yourself up over it man, Chessmaster is a great and powerful dragon, and they way you put them together was cool. I think the good dragons will start to get the votes however, now that the contest is on. Everyone loves to create evil, massively powerful dragons, but I wonder if now that the field is narrowed down, ppl will helplessly vote for the goody two-shoes dragons. Besides, 60/40 split in votes isnt that bad
gomibako_ninja 07-18-06, 11:13 PM	Tsk, tsk. Samurai fanboyism wins the day. Come on, Palsha isn't even that creative a concept! If he was a fighter, knight or paladin with the same background he wouldn't even be in this competition, let alone beat Chessmaster. Ah, well. At least I won't have a difficult choice in the second round; both Arg'th and Arcflare are much more interesting choices. But if Palsha continues to win, I will be very mad. On to the current battle, while Arg'th is a great concept, a pseudodragon could never grapple a gigantic red dragon. And with 12 breath weapons, I think the end result of this battle will be KFP (Kentucky Fried Pseudodragon).
Quicksilver 07-19-06, 12:28 AM	Tsk, tsk. Samurai fanboyism wins the day. Come on, Palsha isn't even that creative a concept! If he was a fighter, knight or paladin with the same background he wouldn't even be in this competition, let alone beat Chessmaster. Ah, well. At least I won't have a difficult choice in the second round; both Arg'th and Arcflare are much more interesting choices. But if Palsha continues to win, I will be very mad. On to the current battle, while Arg'th is a great concept, a pseudodragon could never grapple a gigantic red dragon. And with 12 breath weapons, I think the end result of this battle will be KFP (Kentucky Fried Pseudodragon). I hope everyone thinks this way. I'm 1 out of 3 at the moment. I think Palsha's concept was easier to understand. Despite the knowledge present on these boards, I think that most voters like a simple concept. And katanas. They love katanas. :D I'm hoping Arcflare's obvious power will defeat the pseudodragon's cute factor. I don't think Tomu sabotaged his creation. In fact, I'm sure most voters never see this thread. We can say what we like and it won't make a difference to the competition. Unless we say something clever or quoteable, then we appear next to the dragons. Here's to Palsha getting beaten in the next round.
Pay2Flay 07-19-06, 09:17 AM	No offence to the Chessmaster's creator, because it was a clever concept and interesting use of the rules. But for me, I could not get over my initial feeling that someone had said, "OMG IT'S BLACK AND WHITE TOGETHER SO IT LIKE CHESS OMG LOKK LOOK LOLLERSKATES!!!1!!one!!2!!" Of course the idea was better thought out than that. Very much so. The backstory, and even the development of a modus operandi was grand. But the first impression was of an overdone theme piece that made me roll my eyes. I couldn't shake that. Now a dragon samurai... while a tad cliched, was not as over-the-top. For me, my vote went to the cooler concept as opposed to the Batman villain. These are just my reaons behind the vote. I'm not trying to be mean, just provide possible insight. I think the Chessmaster came on too strong...
TheyCallMeTomu 07-19-06, 11:36 AM	I'm going to agree to that, and one up it by saying that having Chessmaster be a psionic dragon AND based on chess made him have too many aspects. One or the other might have been alright (perhaps given him Mindspy levels and left it at that) but the concept was a bit whacky. I personally like my Id/Ego/Superego three headed dragon a lot better; it doesn't have the themematics of chess, so it can be any dragon type necessary (probably gemstone) and it relates a lot more directly to psionics... I guess I could call it Persona. That or Doktor
TheyCallMeTomu 07-19-06, 11:40 AM	I also think people may have voted against chessmaster because he "Stole the gemstone dragon slot" which I find a bit stupid, because when we first entered our dragons into this competition no one said anything about there being specific slots for certain types of dragons.... Oh well. I mean, I won't vote for the Albino red largely because I think his character concept is kinda dumb, and I probably won't vote for Arcflare because I dislike the Multiheaded template applied beyond 3 or 4 heads... honestly, it just gets insane. You're radically increasing a creature's power; even if you don't add on additional breath weapons, you're still adding on bite attacks, HD, and constitution! Yeesh!
TheyCallMeTomu 07-19-06, 12:10 PM	As far as the "OMFG It's black and white so it likes chess!" thing makes perfect sense. You ever hear of labeling theory? Yah, I thought not. TCH! Though to be even more fair, perhaps I should have specified a history for how White and Black met up, and how White could not meet black in blah blah blah skill, and black desired white's abilities to read eachother's moves, so they were gonna fuse to become THE ULTIMATE CHESSMASTER!!! ... ... ... that backstory is so lame. I'm glad Chessmaster lost... it's not like I'm going to be recorded in the annuals of time for creating him but if I were to be, I'd kind of want it to be for something a bit more original or distinctive to myself than this... yeesh.
TheyCallMeTomu 07-19-06, 12:11 PM	Also, as far as quoteability goes, they seem to update our quotes AFTER each battle... that's how I showed up with my comment about Arcflare... Pah!
Quicksilver 07-19-06, 10:34 PM	I probably won't vote for Arcflare because I dislike the Multiheaded template applied beyond 3 or 4 heads... honestly, it just gets insane. You're radically increasing a creature's power; even if you don't add on additional breath weapons, you're still adding on bite attacks, HD, and constitution! Yeesh! I agree with your assessment of the template. I think that breath weapons should rely on more than the number of mouths a creature has. Each of Arcflare's mouths should bite, but it seems ridiculous that 12 mouths could breath fire simultaneously. Even with that limitation, it should still win. Vote for Arcflare and don't let cute dragons win with a sympathy vote.
Iron Klaw Merc 07-20-06, 12:40 PM	Palsha, really Palsha won, and by such a large margin, a silly Sliver Dragon Samurai, that would have got its butt kicked all over the place won. Wow that was...was...let me get a thesaurus, lets see ridiculous, absurd, asinine, witless, ah here it is... wow that’s ludicrous. Yup ludicrous, that’s it I'm not even bothering to look at these competitions any more, it seems the silliest entries always win.
Helian 07-20-06, 05:41 PM	Well, this is how I look at it..... Where does your breath come from?? your lungs, not your head. If the flame is ignited or created within the head, throat, whatever, you would still need the lungs for propulsion. This being the case, I would (as a DM) make it follow the standard dragon breath weapon limitations. Any head could breathe, but not all at once. There still would be a massive advantage with all the bites. hmm now I am thinks about spells..........
TheyCallMeTomu 07-21-06, 12:14 AM	Palsha, really Palsha won, and by such a large margin, a silly Sliver Dragon Samurai, that would have got its butt kicked all over the place won. Wow that was...was...let me get a thesaurus, lets see ridiculous, absurd, asinine, witless, ah here it is... wow that’s ludicrous. Yup ludicrous, that’s it I'm not even bothering to look at these competitions any more, it seems the silliest entries always win. Yah, I'm giving up on this competition too. I honestly don't think most of these dragon designs are really all that great. If the silly entry is also a clever or unique entry, I'd support it but... Palsha isn't really great in any way shape or form. Hell, if you wanted a samurai, shouldn't it have been a lung dragon? Oiy. Let's just hope this is the last year WotC runs this creature competition... there's no purpose to a popularity contest for it's own right. A creature competition should be about combat, or about uniqueness of idea, or something specific. This popularity contests just makes the people who vote based on combat upset when people win for totally different reasons... Damnit WotC listen to us people: The competition is rigged! Hmmm... maybe one time, WotC could create a series of creatures, each of whom are of equal CR, without any of them being obviously way more powerful than the others... that way, there could be a discussion of combat without being a simple comparison of CR <Nods nods>
Sikyanakotik 07-21-06, 02:21 AM	Dude, maybe you're putting too much energy into this. It's just a silly little game, nothing more. So what your guy didn't win. He beat everyone else in the preliminaries, and that's something to be proud of. There's no point in getting so attached to one character; surely your fertile imagination has countless other ideas in the pipeline.
Lycanthrope_Paragon 07-21-06, 04:37 AM	whats the character motovation for all these dragons to fight? to they win a "belt of Paragon template" lol sorry just a goofy thought
Sikyanakotik 07-21-06, 04:52 AM	Well, I'd guess fame, glory, private use of a Sphere of Concordance, and merry bushels of cash. That or Pun-Pun eats the losers. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/Sikyanakotik/koboldgrin.gif
Echo_that_Pains 07-21-06, 02:44 PM	I just voted on this new one, but i probably voted incorrectly. I voted on design/back story/creativity over sheer power. To me the pseudodragon is an interesting concept. The story behind it gave it a little bit more character. A 12 headed red dragon is not very interesting no matter how powerful it is. Like i said, i probably voted wrong but the little pseudodragon got my vote.
tharivol266 07-21-06, 03:44 PM	i actually put chessmaster in my game on wednesday and had the players play for access to the next room and for the lives of their characters....i only won because of a hastey checkmate call but it was the best game of chess i ever played and it was three of the smartest people i know against me and if chessmaster makes another appearence it wont be as a villian and ill have a backstory (which will be much more interesting since i dont use psionics)....but anyways ill vote against palsha til he loses. PALSHA MUST DIE. and arcflare is just boring.
TheyCallMeTomu 07-21-06, 09:27 PM	What level are your characters? What version of chessmaster did you use? (I put full stats for him up here earlier, but that's for max power stats)? The reason Chessmaster is so deadly as far as a chess player goes is because of his ability to read minds. If he's playing chess normally, he's still a grandmaster, but without reading minds, he's not the fearsome superentity of chess! Did your players make will saves while playing with ya?
tharivol266 07-22-06, 12:50 AM	they were lvl 6. now dont scream it wasn't a violent encounter in anyway. they just took the place of the pieces and were told the pieces they lost would be eaten if they lost.they lost two player pieces then lost the game but i shmoozed it like i had planned incase i did win so it was all good and chessmaster opened the door to one of the seven campaign bbegs
TheyCallMeTomu 07-22-06, 02:00 AM	Sounds about right.
Arcticflare 07-22-06, 10:32 AM	Well, this is how I look at it..... Where does your breath come from?? your lungs, not your head. If the flame is ignited or created within the head, throat, whatever, you would still need the lungs for propulsion. This being the case, I would (as a DM) make it follow the standard dragon breath weapon limitations. Any head could breathe, but not all at once. There still would be a massive advantage with all the bites. hmm now I am thinks about spells.......... Actually, the flame originates in the fundamentum, which is located in the chest cavity. Therefore, he'd only have enough fire for one blast, not twelve. Perhaps he could split it up amongst the heads. If it were merely the lungs, I'd assume Arc(tic)flare would have twelve necks anyway. After all, look at the hydra. He specifically says the dragon was spliced with a hydra, so I'd assume it has enough lungs to match the necks. Otherwise it couldn't breath with all of them. Edit: I may be wrong about the location of the fundamentum, though. A friend is currently borrowing my copy of Draconomicon.
TheyCallMeTomu 07-22-06, 01:51 PM	Even if the fire starts in the fundamentum, that's not necessarily where the damage comes from. It's a supernatural ability so, perhaps like a beam of sunlight through the magnfying glass, each mouth amplyfies the attack. That being said, each mouth would do less damage than a full power breath, but not by a factor of 1/12
tharivol266 07-22-06, 01:53 PM	no ur right. its in the chest cavity slightly differing locations based on which dragon it is. but yea. only one breath weapon
TheyCallMeTomu 07-23-06, 02:39 PM	At the very least, a multiheaded dragon would get the split breath feat. And like I said, dividing a blast fo flame 12 ways doesn't necessarily mean it should deal 1/12 damage. After all, ... well, the only precedent I can think of are crosslinked weapons from d20 Future's starship weapons rules where doubling the number of weapons increases the damage by 50%... If Arcflare's breath weapon was reduced to 1/12 per head, it'd be virtually useless against anything with fire resistance!
tharivol266 07-23-06, 05:20 PM	yea. 1/12th damage per head and they can line up to make other fractions.
aelryinth 07-23-06, 09:52 PM	If you read the entirety of this thread, you will see some massively overpowered dragons. Creating superstrong dragons was NOT the key idea here. Anyone can keep adding on templates and hit dice. Creating an interesting dragon was the idea. My own Rampart I put on here without any levels...just a note that he was a younger Dragon but wore a Torc of the Wyrm to make up for physical shortcomings...and he's got levels in both Dragonslayer and Vassal of Bahamut, and he always runs around with a rider to face dire threats. he's scalable as far as you want to scale him. He's a terrifying foe against other dragons, well nigh invincible. But he could have just a handful of levels, on the flip side, and just be a shining example of one of Bahamut's own instead of some grossly overpowered combat machine. Indeed, I tried very hard to convey the idea that its the fact that he goes into battle with friends who can pick up where his strengths leave off that make him truly dangerous. And he got picked! So, it was the story that was the key...and me wanting to post something that could feasibly take out all the CR80 beasts that kept popping up on these boards, without having to post some monstrous build. ===Aelryinth
TheyCallMeTomu 07-23-06, 09:55 PM	I think the idea is that all the dragons are supposed to be "the same general CR" so if you want to deal with the combat aspect, it's really an aspect of how much of that CR is a mis-estimate. As in, what particular builds are overpowered and which aren't. Oh well.
Echo_that_Pains 07-24-06, 09:57 AM	If you read the entirety of this thread, you will see some massively overpowered dragons. Creating superstrong dragons was NOT the key idea here. Anyone can keep adding on templates and hit dice. Creating an interesting dragon was the idea. My own Rampart I put on here without any levels...just a note that he was a younger Dragon but wore a Torc of the Wyrm to make up for physical shortcomings...and he's got levels in both Dragonslayer and Vassal of Bahamut, and he always runs around with a rider to face dire threats. he's scalable as far as you want to scale him. He's a terrifying foe against other dragons, well nigh invincible. But he could have just a handful of levels, on the flip side, and just be a shining example of one of Bahamut's own instead of some grossly overpowered combat machine. Indeed, I tried very hard to convey the idea that its the fact that he goes into battle with friends who can pick up where his strengths leave off that make him truly dangerous. And he got picked! So, it was the story that was the key...and me wanting to post something that could feasibly take out all the CR80 beasts that kept popping up on these boards, without having to post some monstrous build. ===Aelryinth Gotchya. I will keep voting on creativity and originality then instead of the outrageous abilities. I am a firm believer that a CR5 dragon can be MUCH more fun to play or interesting to use than any CR5-bazillion dragon. The dragons are also much more interesting when they have a weakness that is exploitable. If i was in a game with Archflare it would seem that the DM is just trying to kill everyone. On the other hand in a campaign with the little pseudodragon the possibilities would be endless! It would by no means seem overpowering, but at the same time it would pack a punch that would be almost impossible to foresee and would provide hours of entertainment.
Quicksilver 07-25-06, 12:09 AM	Gotchya. I will keep voting on creativity and originality then instead of the outrageous abilities. I am a firm believer that a CR5 dragon can be MUCH more fun to play or interesting to use than any CR5-bazillion dragon. The dragons are also much more interesting when they have a weakness that is exploitable. If i was in a game with Archflare it would seem that the DM is just trying to kill everyone. On the other hand in a campaign with the little pseudodragon the possibilities would be endless! It would by no means seem overpowering, but at the same time it would pack a punch that would be almost impossible to foresee and would provide hours of entertainment. I don't see it the same way. Arcflare could be useful in an interesting campaign, maybe as an unbeatable menace that must be avoided or overcome in a clever way. It reminds me of the old pyrohydra that way: plenty of heads, but you don't expect any of them to think. The pseudodragon wrestler isn't a terribly useable idea: it can't stand up in combat against PCs and it can't out-think them either. It's a charming oddity at best, an annoying nonsense at worst. Gan the Rusty was a much better concept. The set-up of this competition suggests head-to-head combat, so why not treat it that way? Rampart is mentioned above as a concept involving a younger, weaker dragon. That's fine, but it's set up as a combat threat. Rampart can hold his own in combat, so he might have a chance. BTW I don't think he's really that weak, after all, he's got an artifact glued to his scales to make him extra-powerful. I think the idea of rewarding the better concept is praiseworthy. Just don't everyone do it with thinking about the combat possibilities or it'll turn the contest into a farce. We'd end up with a fairy-princess dragon with a great concept regarding fairy rings and cloud kingdoms winning the competition.
TheyCallMeTomu 07-25-06, 12:08 PM	And only us combat beefs have a problem with that. Arcflare's not unbeatable, he just requires high level magic (assuming he's a high level dragon) to defeat. Energy Immunity makes you immune to his breath entirely. Stoneskin reduces the damage per blow by 10, though it's limited, whereas Iron Body reduces it by 15 (but that prevents spellcasting. It's better if your mage with a really good weapon casts it and has contingency: cast Tenser's Transformation ready to trigger on being affected by Iron Body). His saves are admittedly through the roof, and his AC is pretty high. It'd probably be best to have someone duke him out in melee while a spellcaster takes advantage of his low SR (compared to his CR) to pick him off with RTA spells. Moonbow anyone? =D If you have an Arch Mage in the party, you can use mastery of elements to take advantage of his cold affinity. Also... did they ever say that it was a Multiheaded Dragon, rather than a Half-Dragon Hydra? Honestly, if you mix a hydra with a dragon, you get the latter not the former! That'd drastically reduce his power, though still, 6d8 breath weapon damage 12 times (or is it 6d10) is pretty damned powerful. and +8 strength means each of those 12 bites is a great deal stronger. At the very least, it'd make for a more balanced creature for its CR... maybe add a few HD... add the Kaiju Template... You know what greives me about Arcflare? He's not original at all! Essentially, he's a Pyrohydra with radically better stats.
FriendlyBiscuit 07-25-06, 04:47 PM	You know what greives me about Arcflare? He's not original at all! Essentially, he's a Pyrohydra with radically better stats. :shocked: I can't believe I didn't notice that!
TheyCallMeTomu 07-25-06, 08:07 PM	You know what else pisses me off about this? As time goes on, they are putting INCREASINGLY LESS EFFORT INTO THE COMPETITION! For the love of-this week, the picture for the contest is just a red dragon, rather than a head to head thing, despite that it's a silver vs a green. And what's the site say about the battle? We have selected the talent, now it is time to let them loose on each other. In our fourth match-up, the mighty among dragons -- the twelve-headed red -- takes on the mighty... among pseudodragons. Okay Wizards, time to fess up: are you guys uninterested in this competition because you weren't the one to create the dragons? Are the dragons you thought were REALLY the best not in the competition? Or are you just so wrapped up in the forums difficulties that the competition is second fiddle in terms of where to put your effort?
tharivol266 07-26-06, 12:39 PM	so im really pised now. palsha and arcflare got through. i hate them both and they are going to make me decide which one i hate more. this week though i like both enterants because i love the psuedonatural template and the other is a fallen hero.
Echo_that_Pains 07-26-06, 02:27 PM	This week is a good one. I went with the dracolich for a few reasons. The main one was the fact that a silver dragon (appidomy of good) was turned to evil (not an easy task by any means) but at the same time it adopted an almost schizo behavior. It still cares for the people that it did but will attack anyone else. It seems that this dragon is treading 2 personalities at the same time but in a way that is very cool. Isnt there already a class out there that creates things by piecing together body parts etc. and creating a new being? Or a feat? To respond to Quicksilver: "The set-up of this competition suggests head-to-head combat, so why not treat it that way?" It would seem that way, but if that is truely the case i would have just droped 3 AC, -5 attk, and -2 saves, changed the name and submitted Tiamat with 5 character classes to jack the CR up to 60. I would have an unbeatable dragon right there with no storyline and no unique features. Its the originality that makes stuff like this fun and facinating. Something out-of-the-ordinary that will make a game take a spin that is not forseen.
tharivol266 07-26-06, 05:27 PM	schizophrenia is not having split personalities. thats multiple personality disorder. im sorry to bring it up but that misconception is a pet peeve of mine. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/schizophrenia
Quicksilver 07-27-06, 01:09 AM	To respond to Quicksilver: "The set-up of this competition suggests head-to-head combat, so why not treat it that way?" It would seem that way, but if that is truely the case i would have just droped 3 AC, -5 attk, and -2 saves, changed the name and submitted Tiamat with 5 character classes to jack the CR up to 60. I would have an unbeatable dragon right there with no storyline and no unique features. Its the originality that makes stuff like this fun and facinating. Something out-of-the-ordinary that will make a game take a spin that is not forseen. I didn't mean that we should forget originality and storyline. What I was thinking was that dragons which would obviously have no chance should not have been accepted. The best example is Gan the Rusty: he's a weak pseudodragon, but a powerful wizard. He's got a chance. Argth had no chance. Letting him win would destroy the suspension of disbelief. My own submission was an underpowered but clever silver rogue. He'd have been able to win combats using sneak attacks and clever tactics. On a related point, I think that Wizards is putting very little effort into this competition. No descriptions of the showdowns, no ARDy. If this were the first creature competition, I doubt that it would hold my interest.
TheyCallMeTomu 07-27-06, 06:39 PM	Yah this competition sucks dragon balls! Hell, even if Chessmaster had passed the first round, I doubt I would have really been interested. There's no effort whatsoever put into things, the site is a mess... I don't even think the moderates check these things anymore. SUCKS DRAGON BALLS! ... wait... Anyway, hopefully this'll be the last one they run, unless they intend on putting some more serious effort into the next one. Sure sure, it's all just fun and games, but people are getting disillusioned here! We don't need people making their will save against blind-dedication and luv for WotC! We need people to think that Wizards is infallible. INFALLIBLE!!!!!!~1111. one.
ScottWallace315 07-28-06, 06:49 AM	Fear not,i think that most people voting will vote for Palsha merely because of Palshas`sense of fierce loyalty,i think this loyalty appeals to most voters and will win over the 12 headed beast.
TheyCallMeTomu 07-28-06, 02:02 PM	Who said they wanted Palsha to beat Arcflare? Personally, I think they're both lame concepts. TCH! Not that it really matters anymore. I will admit, this round with the Fleshgrafter is actually pretty cool.
Dragna the Claw 07-28-06, 06:41 PM	What does the ultimate winner of this thing get? Is the dragon featured in an original adventure? Wasn't that the plan for Elludecia and/or Taibo?
TheyCallMeTomu 07-28-06, 07:10 PM	As I understand it, there's absolutely nothing riding on this competition, which is probably why the staff isn't taking it as seriously. I mean, really. At week 1, they did a nice write up of the first battle, but ever since there's been virtually nothing but jack squat. Perhaps the idea of "community inspired" dragons was a major flop after all.
aelryinth 07-29-06, 01:53 AM	I picked weirdness over undead soft-in-the-headness this week. How can you not like a Dragon that actually deigns to stick on the bits of inferior beings to itself? ===Aelryinth
Balor von Balorvitch 07-29-06, 11:56 AM	Hmmm people seem to hate Palsha alot..... funny that he got through LOL Any way i don't think Palsha is any way a samurai fan boy. Nowhere did i mention a katana or ninjas. I also thought it was unfair to not have an oriental dragon in this competion because they play such a large part in asian myths. The chess master was much more silly in my mind than a dragon emperor. In closeing Palsha is a good concept because he doesn't have any silly templates, fusion dances of white and black, albino skin, more than one logical head, etc.
TheyCallMeTomu 07-29-06, 08:17 PM	Hmmm people seem to hate Palsha alot..... funny that he got through LOL Any way i don't think Palsha is any way a samurai fan boy. Nowhere did i mention a katana or ninjas. I also thought it was unfair to not have an oriental dragon in this competion because they play such a large part in asian myths. The chess master was much more silly in my mind than a dragon emperor. In closeing Palsha is a good concept because he doesn't have any silly templates, fusion dances of white and black, albino skin, more than one logical head, etc. "Silly" templates? Oh, I'm sorry that the rest of the dragons are designed through some unique or abstract character construction, whereas palsha just has one single character class that doesn't even work for him. I'm sorry that everything else is "Silly" You wanna fight?! I'll take you on! C'mon, put up your dukes! Just name a time and place! And besides: If you wanted an asian influence, why not use the Lung Dragons? Personally I probably would have voted a well written Lung Dragon over Chessmaster, and I made the guy. But Silver Dragon? No way: thematically silvers are more Western paladin stylized than eastern dragon styles. It's just a clash. Anyway, I wasn't saying your design was somehow samurai fanboyish, I was saying that it happened to appeal to the samurai fanboyness; it's a condemnation of the audience not the creator. TCH!
Odnasept 07-29-06, 11:13 PM	Well, it is possible that the metallic dragons were originally inspired somewhat by asian myth....if the names of various themed restaurants are anything to go by.... :P I don't think that having only one class is a problem -in fact I think that a lot of people went class-crazy with this competition- but I do want to defend the Chessmaster, whose defeat has now slain any remaining interest I had in this competition. Most of the dragons here are either dragons who are the archetype or antithesis of their traditional draconic types. The Chessmaster differs from other dragons of its type(s), yet not dramatically so: it is lawful only within the confines of its game, and wholely evil regardless. It also has a cool theme, which is not necessarily silly in the least. It didn't necessarily graft itself together out of fondness for this mortal game; that could have happened beforehand, with the enthusiasm for chess coming later due to its finding the game a remarkably fitting away to play with its food. ;)
tharivol266 07-30-06, 10:39 AM	Well, it is possible that the metallic dragons were originally inspired somewhat by asian myth....if the names of various themed restaurants are anything to go by.... :P bad joke boy. very bad joke.
Lord_Canius 08-03-06, 07:55 PM	I don't care how drunk he gets, Foda is gonna need a lot more than good saves accross the board to escape the wrath of Lasserous. Thats all I got to say. Except that Chessmaster should have won, and that I'm glad Arcflare won, so :P .
Guardian5 08-04-06, 12:49 AM	Let's see. . . in one corner wearing gold trunks we have a dragon seeking perfection of motion in a human form. And in the other corner wearing rotting flesh trunks a dragon that has been waging wars among dieties. Good with kicks and punches vs. God defying craftiness and survival instincts. Lasserous, "Beacon of the Fallen" has been playing in a tougher conference and should handle Foda, "The Sloppy" pretty well.
concerro 08-04-06, 05:36 AM	And only us combat beefs have a problem with that. Arcflare's not unbeatable, he just requires high level magic (assuming he's a high level dragon) to defeat. Energy Immunity makes you immune to his breath entirely. Stoneskin reduces the damage per blow by 10, though it's limited, whereas Iron Body reduces it by 15 (but that prevents spellcasting. It's better if your mage with a really good weapon casts it and has contingency: cast Tenser's Transformation ready to trigger on being affected by Iron Body). His saves are admittedly through the roof, and his AC is pretty high. It'd probably be best to have someone duke him out in melee while a spellcaster takes advantage of his low SR (compared to his CR) to pick him off with RTA spells. Moonbow anyone? =D If you have an Arch Mage in the party, you can use mastery of elements to take advantage of his cold affinity. Also... did they ever say that it was a Multiheaded Dragon, rather than a Half-Dragon Hydra? Honestly, if you mix a hydra with a dragon, you get the latter not the former! That'd drastically reduce his power, though still, 6d8 breath weapon damage 12 times (or is it 6d10) is pretty damned powerful. and +8 strength means each of those 12 bites is a great deal stronger. At the very least, it'd make for a more balanced creature for its CR... maybe add a few HD... add the Kaiju Template... You know what greives me about Arcflare? He's not original at all! Essentially, he's a Pyrohydra with radically better stats. The difference is that a hydra has an intel of two and cant cast spells, where as by calling it a dragon it can adapt to whatever strategies the pc's come up with and it should be smart enough to have spells perpared to counter any natural weaknesses the pc's may try to exploit,
OmegaRSX 08-04-06, 11:05 AM	Lasserous is a "Grave Wyrm." In what sourcebook is such a creature found?
shalazar_bation 08-04-06, 12:38 PM	I voted for the grave wyrm as well. My pick to take it all is the 12 headed red dragon. shalazar
Dragna the Claw 08-04-06, 05:36 PM	lol oh man... can't wait to see the voting percentages from this match. *goes in the corner and does a keg stand of mourning with his dragon*
TheyCallMeTomu 08-05-06, 12:52 PM	I voted Foda. I just have a thing for the Drunken Master PrC. It considerably ups unarmed damage, it could grant Foda up to a +20 boost to strength or constitution (though only if he can stand to lose that much dex and wisdom), and it allows him to wield REALLY big tankards! It doesn't matter what Lasserous has to say about fighting gods if he's grappled. And besides, Foda would tell him to settle down, have a drink, and have some fun for a change. Awwww yeah! Seriously, I don't even care anymore. We all know this competition isn't about combat anymore, and it probably never was (Pseudodragon winning, anyone?). So why vote for the Gravewyrm? Which reminds me, the Gravewyrm has a HUGE CR, but if you pay close attention, the spell Death Ward defeats *all* of its special attacks. So with proper planning, it's only marginally more powerful than the Tarrasque (except that you can fly to escape the Tarrasque). CR 45? Tch. More like 30. Tops. It's simply a matter of negating it's damage. Since it has 60 HD, it has high base attack, so you'd need Dodge, Mobility, and Elusive Target (Complete Warrior). You'd need freedom of movement to avoid being grappled. Other than that a few Mass Heals can recover as much damage dealt each round as it deals, and damage any undead minions too. FOR ANYONE INTERESTED IN ACTUAL COMBAT STATS OF FODA VS THE GRAVEWYRM LASSEROUS: If we assume Foda to be of the same CR as Lasserous (not necessarily true, but worth saying), Foda would need to be a Great Wyrm Gold with about 36 monk/Drunken Master levels to match his CR. The great wyrmness gives him spells, and the huge monk and Drunken Masterness gives him a bunch of other abilities, including bonus epic feats. Now, there's no guarantee Foda WOULD take the Damage Reduction feat a multitude of times, but he could. And if he took it enough to get DR 25/- and also had an AC that made Lazzerous unable to hit him with great accuracy (or Elusive Target) then Lasserous would not only not totally obliterate him, but would likely lose. But hey, this competition isn't about combat, it's about concept. NOTE: Full gravewyrm stats found here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20040109a Hmmm... I didn't take into account the Gravewyrm's superior aerial mobility, though I'm not sure that has much overall effect...
Mass_Assassin 08-06-06, 12:47 AM	Come on, people, it's concept that really matters here. Now let's think about this Foda for a second: The drunken fighting style is designed to keep your opponent unaware of your next move. By weaving and staggering about as if inebriated, the drunken master can avoid many blows. Just look at their swaying waist ability: A drunken master knows how to bob and weave during an attack, making him more difficult to hit. HOW DOES THIS WORK WITH A DRAGON THE SIZE OF A BARN!?! The concept is stupid.
Dragna the Claw 08-06-06, 09:30 AM	How does it work? Well, comparetively speaking, against an opponent the same size or bigger than Foda a lot like how it works between a human drunken master and another human, or a human and an ogre depending on the size of a gravewyrm. Of course the ground would shake more and his improvised weapon could be anything from an uprooted tree to a pair of nagas tied together. The concept of the class holds true no matter your size. You can be thirty feet tall and still bob and weave, making opponents unsure of your next move. The only difference is that opponents hurt a lot more with an unanticipated punch from a thirty foot tall dragon versus a six foot human. At least that's my assumption. Now I understand drunken master is an odd class for a dragon, but the concept of a dragon in D&D is really very limited, especially in the minds of fans who only accept a handful of archtypes. I consider Foda one of the few in the competition that actually challenges the normal logic of dragons. Being an lonely orphan, he never really developed the air of superiority almost every dragon has. Instead of lesser races pawning for his favor or pledging their undying devotion, as could have happened if he had grown into a normal, benevolent gold, he instead yearned for human contact, any contact really. When the master of the monestary found him in the mountains and invited him to train, Foda jumped at the chance to be with others. This desire blossomed into a student's need to impress and meet the expectations of his teacher. He strived to attain perfection of form through a human art, but in doing so found a universal peace within himself. Later in life, after his ward Ku was ready to avenge his murdered monestary, alcohol was introduced into Foda's life as a steady way to raise money for his secret guild. The first time Foda became drunk was really quite innocent, helping test the drinks, which tasted so good it led to a long night of emptying kegs. While Foda might have been overwhelmed with alcohol in his life, like so many humans are, his training provided a buffer. Instead of letting the drink control him, he harnessed drunkeness into a strength. From their he wisely utilized the guild's brewing two fold, as a source of income and as a specialized fighting technique. And through his wisdom Ku's people were avenged. Hmm, doesn't much defend whether or not Foda's stupid... but there's a window into his concept. Like it or hate it, I'm happy it at least generates something.
TheyCallMeTomu 08-06-06, 12:34 PM	I like Foda better than Lasserious. Heck, Foda's probably my favorite that's still left in the competition. May Foda avenge the Chessmaster!
Balor von Balorvitch 08-08-06, 12:24 AM	Hmmm a dragon as a drunken master just seems foolish. Undead army now thats where a true dragon spends his time not drinking all day. As for the future matchs i go Arc Fire to go down the same as Backgammon did :evillaugh Oh a note that i am more likely to vote for a dragon that has a catchy title. I personally went for alliteration keeping in mind that it goes "Palshas Platinum Palace".
tubaling 08-08-06, 03:07 PM	on this week's Kikker... vs. Kreestahl..., I'm torn. Kikker has a superior (i.e. more unique, scarier) concept than Kreestahl, IMHO, but I'm finding it *really* hard to vote for a spider-like (i.e. arachnoid) creature that has "insectile" in its name. Am I just a jerk to pick on that, or what?
Dipteran_Legacy 08-08-06, 03:47 PM	I must say I'm sorta surprised at this competition so far..... I missed out on the chessmaster vrs samurai and the fleshgrafter vrs the ex-silver. I really thought that the chessmaster would've beaten out that samurai, though I didnt much care who won between the red and the reaping mauler. I liked the fleshgrafter and the ex-silver, so I dont have anything to say in that department, either. somehow, I sorta wish they could've both won, like if one of them had been paired against arcflare or something. I couldnt vote between foda and the gravewyrm. I didnt feel especially strong about the drunken master, but "Ub3R UND3AD H311 DR4GUNZZ" just rub me the wrong way... I am hoping that crystalwind wins this one, though. seriously, it's like a drow fanboy read the competition, thought "drat! only dragons!....hmm....now how can I fit drow and/or Lloth in with dragons......" :rolleyes: sorry, but even if you think crystalwind is a lame dragon,(though I find it somewhat clever) DONT SUPPORT THE DROW FANBOY MOVEMENT!
Balor von Balorvitch 08-08-06, 07:11 PM	sorry, but even if you think crystalwind is a lame dragon,(though I find it somewhat clever) DONT SUPPORT THE DROW FANBOY MOVEMENT! I don't support the drow movement in general but i don't think people will choose it to win later rounds and i fear that this whed dragon might gain momentum so i will side with lolth for now PS: Since the community actually made these dragons can the maker get a custom avatar or something as a reward..... not that i have a vested intrest :D
sgt_mango 08-08-06, 07:14 PM	For Kikkericqqeua, a big scary spider-dragon is... well.. big and scary. For Krystalwind, the biggest advantage is having ill-prepared and misinformed opponents. But a Black Dragon, arachnoid or not, has an acid breath weapon and casts spells as a sorcerer. Krystalwind's largest advantage goes out the window.
4everDMing 08-09-06, 09:37 AM	Well, since Kikkericqqeua was my dragon I voted for her. Since it was brought up - the only reason I picked the Insectile template is because there wasn't an arachnid template (although MM4 looks like it some kind of "Loth-touched" template -- but I don't have that book yet nor was it out when we were asked to submit ideas). Kikkericqqeua was conceived from what would scare my PCs the most. Since Dragons and Giant Spiders topped the list I did my best to combine them since I thought the idea behind the competition was to make the coolest concept dragon. Since scaring the sh*t out of PCs fit the bill, I went with it. I simply came up with a quick story as to why a dragon would end up looking like that. BTW - the unpronounceable name is the same sound every cheesy sci-fi movie puts to giant spiders, and I originally posted her as Kikkericqqeua: Insectile Black (Widow) Dragon
TheyCallMeTomu 08-09-06, 05:27 PM	Hmmm.. I guess I like the insect. I just dislike the Albino dragon. And Arcflare. Those two **** me off! MAY THEY BURN IN BAATOR!
aelryinth 08-10-06, 02:40 AM	Going to have to vote for the wyrm in webs as opposed to the rehashed albino Red. You know, they even had a Dungeon adventure with an albino red some time ago? heh. ==Aelryinth
Dragna the Claw 08-10-06, 08:32 AM	I'm going to have to go with Aelryinth on this one. I recall there being an adventure with an albino dragon, as well. While I find the concept superior to a spider-dragon, I went with Kik because of "originality". But I am shocked no previous drow fane or demon web or city of spiders adventure designer ever thought to mix Lloth and dragons. It really would be a challenging and logical encounter during a romp in the Underdark, not to mention wet the appetites of all those die-hard dark elf fans.
Grayson 08-12-06, 01:39 PM	Had to vote against the albino red here too. It's a pretty cliche concept, and one I've never found players appreciate, or enjoy. Spider-dragon sounds a lot more interesting. And gods, Arcflare? 12-headed dragon.. sorry to whoever created it, but my Munchkin-O-Meter just broke. I'd never live that down if I tried to pull that on my players.
TheyCallMeTomu 08-12-06, 04:53 PM	(I can't believe I'm saying this but) In Arcflare's defense: Isn't he actually significantly less difficult than 12 red readons? 2, 4, 8, 12... that's +7 CR. +11 heads is what, +8 CR? Oh crap. Never mind. Cause while 12 red dragons might have more attacks (by a lot!), that plus TWENTY TWO hit dice adds +11 to the DC of the breath weapons, in addition to giving some INSANE constitution boost which ups it further. The AC is also a lot higher, and so is the attack bonus. It probably depends on what level of dragon we're talking about. After all, I'd prefer to fight a 12 headed Great Wyrm red than 12 great wyrms, just because they'd be able to spellcast me into oblivion. At least against a 12 header I can have the sorcy counterpslel and the cleric use Energy Immunity. Beyond that, Scale Weakening the !@#$er down to 0 natural armor and let the fighter or barbarian Power Attack him to dust! With a three person party, that'd be, what, 25th level characters? Hopefully the barbarian has elusive target and some heavy damage reduction to help him with those bite attacks. And that wouldn't work if one was fighting multiple baddies.
TheyCallMeTomu 08-12-06, 11:07 PM	... You know, someone needs to make a short CG piece with all the dragons of the competition, and the end of the competition with the victor holding a trophy and whatnot. I'd pay a buck to see it if it was well done.
aelryinth 08-13-06, 08:19 PM	Meditating martial Landwyrm against paladinic do-gooder bronze exemplar of bahamut. I imagine this duel will come down to a debate on draconic philosophies. The loser has to help the winner take down all challengers on the way to the final! (Tooting the horn for Rampart) ==Aelryinth
TheyCallMeTomu 08-14-06, 01:01 AM	I'd just as soon flip a coin for thatone.
Bongitybongbong 08-15-06, 11:37 PM	how in the nine hells did the albino red dragon beat an actual cool creature? i bet it will come down to the 12 headed jerk and the albino to decide the "winner"
TheyCallMeTomu 08-16-06, 12:56 AM	This competition stinks. And not just because Chessmaster lost to a frickin wannabe samurai. Tch. Though I still say I should have used better dragon ideas during development.
spncrbrrtt 08-16-06, 08:21 AM	Hmmm.. I guess I like the insect. I just dislike the Albino dragon. And Arcflare. Those two **** me off! MAY THEY BURN IN BAATOR! Arcflare rulez! He will roast all others 12 times!
Bongitybongbong 08-16-06, 08:26 AM	so, Arcflare is a generic boring idea
4everDMing 08-16-06, 08:32 AM	Wow. I lost :weep: . Oh well. I am really only disappointed in the margin - I would have thought it would have gone the other way or at least been close. Fear not! Kikkericqqeua will be back (if only in my games)
TheyCallMeTomu 08-16-06, 01:22 PM	Wow. The developers are lazy. "Krystalwind beat Kikkericqqeua to advance to the next round" WHERE DID ALL THE WITTY TAGLINES GO?! The commentary? It's like they're doing the absolute bare minimum, and it personally offends me! THAT'S why I don't like this competition, it's not taken seriously! It's like I'm glad Chessmaster lost in the first round, so he can go home already! GUH! And yet I'm still here -.-
ChroniclerC 08-16-06, 03:29 PM	Ugh. That's just lame, Krystalwind should never have even been in this competition; it's not a white dragon. The idea isn't even original! Just throwing some paint on a dragon doesn't make a cool creature. :rant:
TheyCallMeTomu 08-16-06, 05:17 PM	It should have been put in the red dragon category, and Chessmaster should have been in the black or whites category. A lot of people woulda been less cheesed at him (almost typed chessed XD) if he hadn't stole the gemstone slot. Chessmaster was the only white dragon in the entire tournament.
aelryinth 08-17-06, 04:56 AM	Hey, paladine dragon against monkish dragon isn't exactly a battle of rivals either. Rampart was made up to scale to take on all those big ugly dragons! (toots for his iconic bronze again) ===Aelryinth
Dipteran_Legacy 08-17-06, 05:58 AM	I dunno about the "stereotypical" thing. maybe it's because my groups dont play modules, and we havent ever even fought a dragon in our own games. To me, as a long time gamer (and video gamer-never fought an albino red in those either) it didnt seem stereotypical, it seemed clever. maybe a lot of modules and whatnot have had albino red dragons in them or something. :confused: I do apologize to 4everDMing for my earlier bashing of his concept, but even if you didnt have drowism in mind when you created your masterpiece, but you gotta admit, it does seem to beckon support from the drow fans. that said, I thought the pally was a better idea than a dragon-monk who has inspired an entire monastery. dunno if dragon-pally's are also sterotypical, as someone not intimately familiar with dragons, it seemed the more interesting idea, anyways. especially as a bronze-as a gold, it would have been a putrid idea, but putting the bronze spin on it makes it "clever" I guess I would say. sorry if my votes are cheesing off you die-hard dragon lovers out there. I'm just sorta a curious observer. P.S.- please dont say anything like "well if you dont love dragons with all your heart, why the h@$& are you even voting!!??" ;)
Helian 08-17-06, 06:48 PM	Hey, paladine dragon against monkish dragon isn't exactly a battle of rivals either. Rampart was made up to scale to take on all those big ugly dragons! Yeah I was disappointed in this matchup as well. I created Korosagra to battle an diabolical dragon, smash him and retreat to his deep dark cave. Oh well, maybe his next opponent......*wink*
4everDMing 08-18-06, 08:56 AM	I do apologize to 4everDMing for my earlier bashing of his concept, but even if you didnt have drowism in mind when you created your masterpiece, but you gotta admit, it does seem to beckon support from the drow fans. No probs As I mentioned it wasn't my intention. However, it didn't work either :)
droopy-99 08-18-06, 02:27 PM	I guess I don't have enough imagination, but I just cannot wrap my mind around a monk dragon concept...
TheyCallMeTomu 08-19-06, 01:06 AM	I guess I don't have enough imagination, but I just cannot wrap my mind around a monk dragon concept... That's probably because you're thinking of the monk as a quick fighter that uses bare fists and palm strikes, or big quarterstaffs. Even if you drop the unarmed aspect of the monk, it still seems weird for a quadrepedal creature to have that kind of manuverability: after all, four legs allow for high run speeds but it's also a lot harder to turn. If dragons were more humanoid in form, the monk dragon idea would likely play better.
TheyCallMeTomu 08-19-06, 01:07 AM	Imagine a dragon trying to do that crane kick from Karate kid...
Helian 08-19-06, 01:22 PM	Well, if an unarmed monk is unimaginable, then all classes are foolish, save magic or mind. A dragon is naturally unarmed, it attacks with its natural weapons. The samurai, paladin, and other martial classes to me are the ones that seem off. I think too many people are locked into the idea that all monks fly up trees faster that a spider monkey. Think to the chinese movies.......there is always at least one monk that is bigger, slower, stronger and fights using a different technique that best suits his physique. Kicking boulders and snapping the tree that the quicker monk slid up. It seems more realistic that a dragon would master his natural attacks than pick a martial or stealth class just to add a couple of class abilities he really doesnt need.
TheyCallMeTomu 08-19-06, 04:52 PM	Fighter works well though, because of Weapon focus etc etc with unarmed attacks. Paladin is the same way, in that you can smite. Also, dragons have a high charisma, so divine grace is useful. Barbarian works well for dragons too. The thing about the monk is that their primary class feature is unarmed attack damage, which makes their huge variety of natural attacks less useful. Also, while there's always the unarmed fighter who's bigger and slower, I don't usually classify those as monks; that'd be more like a d20 Modern character with the brawl feat but who's otherwise a barbarian. Dragons just don't have the mobility associated with a monk's low armor evasion.
Helian 08-19-06, 09:29 PM	Fighter works well though, because of Weapon focus etc etc with unarmed attacks. Paladin is the same way, in that you can smite. Also, dragons have a high charisma, so divine grace is useful. Barbarian works well for dragons too. The thing about the monk is that their primary class feature is unarmed attack damage, which makes their huge variety of natural attacks less useful. Also, while there's always the unarmed fighter who's bigger and slower, I don't usually classify those as monks; that'd be more like a d20 Modern character with the brawl feat but who's otherwise a barbarian. Dragons just don't have the mobility associated with a monk's low armor evasion. 1st of all, I think most dragons have weapon focus unarmed, 2nd you mentioned holy smite and charisma, well for LG dragons only, but take a look at a mountain landwyrm's Wisdom modifier for AC bonus to aid the low dex and monks have the best saving throws bar none, that equals out for sure. With 20 lvls put the 4 of 5 ability points into dex, the last into wisdom. 3rd, I realize there is only an unarmed attack table up to large monks, but what pray tell would be a collosal monks damage?? No DM in there right mind would limit a collosal dragon to 2d8 at 10th lvl. 4th, base speed is not a requirement to be a monk, BEING a monk and TRAINING like a monk grants you the mobility. I took Tae Kwon Do for over 2 years and I've seen some fat guys in my time that are more mobile than some skinny awkward toothpick. Its all about training. You mentioned the barbarian works well.. why? cause they can get mad?? any sentiant being meets that requirement. Isnt base speed and mobility a class skill for barbarians???? Finally, if a dragon doesnt have the mobility to be a monk, why does, say, an adult blue have 60' and can attack with 1 bite 2 claws 1 tail and a wingslap without any sort of training? My point is, there arent ability requirements to being a monk, nor a size requirement. Sure, I agree that a dragon monks fighting style would not look anything like a humanoid monks, and wouldn't seem as quick or mobile either. However, this competition is dragon vs dragon, and therein would you see the difference.
TheyCallMeTomu 08-20-06, 04:54 PM	Stop getting so defensive of it. I'm just saying that dragons traditionally fight like cats: they're on all fours and they move forwards before lunging with a claw strike and a bite. They don't take a humanoid stance. If you want to justify it by saying there are seperate martial arts forms then by all means. Anyway, a Monk's unarmed strikes can't be used in conjunction with natural weaponry, so a powerful dragon would lose attacks, but you're right I wasn't putting it in context with a landwyrm. Personally I like the idea, but it's just odd: moreso than a fighter or a paladin. But that's not a bad thing necessarily, no moreso than, say, a fused Egoist and Telepath dragon. A Monk dragon would have like, 6 attacks that are unarmed, compared to 6 natural attacks... Hmmm... actually that's not bad. A dragon is larger and deals a lot more damage, but the idea is the dragon can't simultaneously use all of its secondary natural weapons in conjunction with a flurry. And my point is, how does the dragon manuver? I'm not talking about being fat, I'm talking about having four legged mobility: you get more speed, but have you ever seen a horse try and do a 180 without a wide turn radius? I certainly haven't, so maybe they can just hop and suddenly be turning the other way around. But maybe it's more like the dragon uses its tail to deflect attacks, rather than a raw avoidance policy.
Arcticflare 08-20-06, 06:05 PM	Fighting like cats? http://www.marshalspost.com/images/tmp/thmxzaW_a.jpg You're arguing the logistics of this. There's almost nothing in the RAW that says this couldn't happen. In all reality, this is fantasy. If you want to get into physics, we could tear down everything else that doesn't make sense. We'd be left with *gasp* reality!
Helian 08-25-06, 08:27 PM	Well, it seems that the forum changes have killed this board..........
TheyCallMeTomu 08-25-06, 10:50 PM	Yah... get the 25k and the 17th level cleric, we gonna have ta cast us some True Resurrection. Oh, and the cost to have him cast the spell in the first place.
Helian 08-26-06, 08:57 AM	Yah... get the 25k and the 17th level cleric, we gonna have ta cast us some True Resurrection. Oh, and the cost to have him cast the spell in the first place. Hold on, I have a ring of wishes around here somewhere........
TheyCallMeTomu 08-26-06, 01:50 PM	"I wish the dragon was dead." "Okay, you're now fighting a dracolich" "Sweet, its breath weapon DC just plummeted as did it's HP!" Ahh wishes. The DM's "Screw you" to the players. Unfortunately, such an event could never happen in one of my campaigns. Or rather, if it did, I'd be even MORE of a jackass. Allow me to explain. Dracolichdom is an incredibly complex process involving a wide variety of material components and XP costs. The Wish spell can only duplicate effects within a certain range of power. IPSO FACTO, in order to duplicate the effect of instantaneously transforming a dragon into a dracolich, it would require an additional expenditure of some (probably large) amount of XP! That being said, I'm not so sure that that ring has the RAW POWER necessary to bring back a thread as dead as this one!
Watchdog_of_Hades 08-26-06, 03:50 PM	It doesn't seem to be dead now that people are talking about resurrecting it.
TheyCallMeTomu 08-26-06, 05:10 PM	Arcflare's damned lucky that he's going up against Palsha in the second round, because if he was going up against ANYONE else left in this tournament, I'd totally vote for them. But really, Palsha grindes my gears. And not in a sexually explicit or otherwise good way.
Watchdog_of_Hades 08-27-06, 11:21 AM	Good thing Palsha won, then. Why don't you like Arcflare?
TheyCallMeTomu 08-27-06, 02:20 PM	Two big reasons. First of all, the Multiheaded template is too powerful when applied to creatures with breath weapons (mostly only when the upper level of heads is applied). Now, granted, the CR adjustment is about the same as if you fought say, 12 dragons of the same sort, but by adding 22 HD to it you skyrocket everything about the dragon from natural armor to HP to its saves, etc etc etc. So in one sense it's a lot harder than fighting twelve dragons (it actually does depend on what rank of dragon we're talking about though: Arcflare doesn't get the ability to cast 12 times as many spells and he doesn't gain twelve actions, he just has twelve bites, twelve breaths, a heck of a lot of feats, etc). The two headed version of the template isn't that bad, as it's a +2 CR: doubling the creature's CR is like having there be two of the entity, and +2 HD doesn't phenomanally increase breath weapon saves, etc etc (when I designed Chessmaster, I mostly did it with two seperate dragons in mind CR wise: the guy has two sets of feats, with some overlapping). But anyway, the "overpowered" arguement is a bit iffy, so it's not my major one. My second, and better, arguement is that Arcflare is nothing but an overgrown overpowered Pyrohydra. Honestly, other than some spells, some flight, a few claw attacks, and a HELL of a lot more power, what's the difference? You might as well just slapped the Half-dragon template onto a normal hydra and had the same effect (or the winged template onto a pyrohydra). Well, visually anyway. Obviously the power would be a lot different. But to be fair, I'm not exactly impressed by the other participants (I strangely enough like Gan and Foda though). If the contest was about raw power, then I'd have to say Arcflare should win against anyone but foda (and would lose against foda because of his fire immunity from being a gold and his 1337 giant tankard wielding powers). But Chessmaster woulda wiped the floor with Palsha if it was a discussion of power, so it's clear that the competition isn't And my third reason, is that your "VOTE ARCFLARE OR LOSE AT LIFE" sig is kind of annoying; I mean, hell, people accused ME of puffing up Chessmaster too much... so what the heck does that mean you're doing? Edit: I must admit I can't find my savage species around anywhere: anyone have any clue what the CR adjustment is on +11 heads? Edit: Here it is: +6. So that'd be the equivalence of fighting eight one headed dragons. But with twelve heads worth of power, +11 to all saves (AND a +11 to fortitude, with a total +22 to the DC of said breath weapon powers), and a huge increase in HP (and unlike 8 red dragons, you can't just pelt the area with cones of cold to hit multiples at once. Though if you're using polar ray, I guess this does work better). Of course, the minimum size is huge, so at youngest Arcflare would have to be a Young Adult. Final CR is 19, capable of dealing 120d10 fire damage, having 12 bite attacks (+41 base attack), and having an average of around 922 HP. In short, stats well beyond that of a great wyrm, but at a CR 7 lower (to be fair, of course, Arcflare's caster level is 5th, and he doesn't have the huge bite DAMAGE that a Great Wyrm would have, but honestly: would you prefer to fight Arcflare 12 times at once instead of fighting a Great Wyrm? I don't think so). Honestly, CR is a "fine art" rather than an exact science, and I'm more than willing to acknowledge that, but things that essentially MULTIPLY the attack power of a given creature are the worst contributors... but at least it's not a +% to CR, like in the Book of Templates. Edit: I WAS going to point out that a dracolich Arcflare wouldn't be that tough, but then I remembered its high HD (despite having only Young Adult Charisma). Combine 12 bite attacks with paralyzing cold on each one and it doesn't matter if the DC is "Only" 33, everyone's gonna fail eventually. And here I thought I had a chunk in the guy's armor. Well at least his HP would drop to 266 (merely 22 HP per head). Freedom of Movement would allow for immunity to the paralysis, and Arcflare's lower caster level wouldn't allow him to counter it effectively.
Watchdog_of_Hades 08-27-06, 03:24 PM	Again, if power had anything to do with it, Rahb'adubdub would be the only one in the contest. As for the "half-dragon hydra" thing, I can do the same for any other dragon in the competition. Observe. Caululithrax: ooh, an undead dragon. There isn't a template for that. Gan: a red with a permanent Reduce on him. Silversheen: thing with a template, just like Arcflare. Kikkericqqeua: half-dragon monstrous spider. See? P.S.: I don't mean to offend any of the dragon-makers. As for the sig, there. It's changed.
TheyCallMeTomu 08-27-06, 03:43 PM	You misunderstand. The most powerful dragon CREATED shouldn't win, but the most powerful dragon in the tournament might possibly should win, but the dragons put in the tournament should all be about the same powaaaaaa. It's not just about comparing CR to CR. it's about comparing how the abilities stack up against an entity of "Comparable strength." More of a "rock paper scissors" thing. My problem with Arcflare is that he is specifically "just a Pyrohydra." He doesn't add anything new. Granted, few of the entries do: I don't think our spider dragon has been explored before, but I know the Albino Red has been. Foda is nifty because the idea of a gold dragon stumbling around like he's drunk amuses me, and it's a pretty new idea. I like the idea of Gan, as an illusionist who can be taken seriously appeals to me. I just think Arcflare is just a Pyrohydra.
Balor von Balorvitch 08-28-06, 08:35 AM	Arcflare's damned lucky that he's going up against Palsha in the second round, because if he was going up against ANYONE else left in this tournament, I'd totally vote for them. But really, Palsha grindes my gears. And not in a sexually explicit or otherwise good way. Lol it is funny that with all the hatred everyone has for the sliver samurai that he even beat backgammon eh Tomu? :schemes: I think this contest is about more than combat, or who can have the most templates for a complex dragon. It comes down to what you can relate with and simplicity. You must ask your self these questions if you want to know my dragon is still in the game. 1.Can you pronance Palsha? Can you pronunce Kikkericqqeua? (His full name is Palshacanaquo) 2.Do you need to spend hours going through a pile of books and making new stats for a dragon. Or can you find said dragon in the MM and the single class in ether the CW or OA (For the record i used the OA when creating him) 3. Is said dragon a series of unlikely events and templates? other than that my boy sould be dead by now. As how he beat Back... Chessmaster? Oh i don't know anti-psionic field? Any way Palsha prevails
TheyCallMeTomu 08-28-06, 12:29 PM	That arguement is idiotic. If you already have the *******ed character sheet (which you do: I presented Chessmaster's stats earlier in the thread), then WHY THE HECK WOULD YOU HAVE TO SEARCH THROUGH A BUNCH OF SOURCEBOOKS JUST TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO RUN HIM? Granted, you'd have to reference Complete Psion and/or the Psionics SRD, but a dragon that takes spells from the Spell Compendium is the same phenomena. And events aren't "unlikely" if they're triggered from a series of logically consequential phenomena; Chessmaster didn't just randomly generate himself into the existence of the world. And hey, I can pronounce Chessmaster, Palsha, AND Arcflare. Oh, and Foda. Gotta luv Foda. Anyway, I'm the only one who hates Palsha (though a friend of mine thinks he was the worst entry... I'm not so sure about that), but I do seem to be the only one on the BOARDS that does. Alas, Chessmaster WAS a weak entry because the only way psionics made sense with a black and a white dragon was the TELEPATHY aspect that helped him play Chess, and that wasn't emphasized enough. I should have gone with a triple headed gemstone dragon based on the three aspects of Freudian Psyche (Id, Ego, and Superego FTW). It fit together better, people wouldn't have bellyached about my dragon stealing the gemstone slot and-well, it wouldn't have even been picked to be able to be nominated, but oh well there. Edit: As a point of interest, you have a good point on Anti-magic field. If Palsha has a high enough caster level he'd be able to use that. BUT! The field is what, ten foot radius? It wouldn't even cover Palsha's entire form. I guess that might allow Palsha to avoid "targeted" attacks, but it wouldn't help against more physically mounted psionic attacks. And besides, the development team HATES anti-magic fields.
Balor von Balorvitch 08-28-06, 02:08 PM	That arguement is idiotic. Not all the reasons given applyed to chessmaster but he would take a while to create and he is an odd combination (literally) of things. And even though it may have some logic it suffers from the Succubus Paladin thing. Why would a white and Black Dragon fuse to play chess all day? Don't they indivually have things to do? Why would a white dragon (least int) become a psion in the frist place? The end was good but how both dragons got to that point seems silly. Edit: As a point of interest, you have a good point on Anti-magic field. If Palsha has a high enough caster level he'd be able to use that. BUT! The field is what, ten foot radius? It wouldn't even cover Palsha's entire form. I guess that might allow Palsha to avoid "targeted" attacks, but it wouldn't help against more physically mounted psionic attacks. And besides, the development team HATES anti-magic fields. 10' is good enough if Palsha was in human form. but Palsha could use it to negate his thoughts and play him in some honest chess if Palsha won Chessmaster would concide defeat, if Chessmaster won (most likely since i don't have knowledge chess) Palsha could fight him with more powerful spells (assuming both dragons are the same CR) and have some anti magic field tailsman in a bucket of glue and throw them in between his 2 heads thus being able to hit his body with spells but since Chessmaster must speak or think to use his psionics he would be useless. The same strat is for arc fire save for more buckets of glue and like 5 more anti magic tailsmen) Your gem dragon theory seems sound as they are natural psions and seem or abt to learn the fusion dance.
TheyCallMeTomu 08-28-06, 03:21 PM	10' is good enough if Palsha was in human form. but Palsha could use it to negate his thoughts and play him in some honest chess if Palsha won Chessmaster would concide defeat, if Chessmaster won (most likely since i don't have knowledge chess) Palsha could fight him with more powerful spells (assuming both dragons are the same CR) and have some anti magic field tailsman in a bucket of glue and throw them in between his 2 heads thus being able to hit his body with spells but since Chessmaster must speak or think to use his psionics he would be useless. The same strat is for arc fire save for more buckets of glue and like 5 more anti magic tailsmen) Your gem dragon theory seems sound as they are natural psions and seem or abt to learn the fusion dance. Ummm... dude: ANTI MAGIC FIELD WOULD MEAN HE'D BE UNABLE TO TAKE HUMAN FORM!!! I guess if you have an anti-magic field magical item then you could use that, but that's a non-kosher magical item that is an anything goes situation. If Arcflare had one of those he'd easily be able to defeat all the other competition, simply because he's the strongest competitor in terms of raw physical attacks. Like I said: Antimagic fields are a developers nightmare. But yah, I guess the idea of a dragon who LITERALLY plays chess all day is lame. But apparently a few people have liked Chessmaster and are incorporating him into their own campaigns, but with Chess being more of a metaphor. Besides: superintelligent entities tend to be a bit OCD. It seems that a supergenius dragon would have an irrational motivation to become as good as possible at chess, especially if it uses chess as a life metaphor. BUT! This contest doesn't allow long drawn out explanations like that, so no one would buy into it. Incidentally... if the Chessmaster is the subject of a permanent fusion power, technically, they'd be split into two different dragons at the time of an antimagic field... but then they'd probably be disqualified XD
Helian 08-28-06, 09:27 PM	Here is my 2 cents on Arcflare. Does he seem overpowerful? yep. Does it seem easy to add 11 heads? sure. Does he seem created more for power than for storyline? maybe. Bottom line in my thinking is this, If he wasn't created, someone would have asked "why wasn't there a multi-headed dragon with tons of breath weapons and extra hit dice, 'cause that would have been really cool." Some ppl love power, some like storyline, others like a balance of both. Hence the reason for this competition.
TheyCallMeTomu 08-28-06, 09:53 PM	Here is my 2 cents on Arcflare. Does he seem overpowerful? yep. Does it seem easy to add 11 heads? sure. Does he seem created more for power than for storyline? maybe. Bottom line in my thinking is this, If he wasn't created, someone would have asked "why wasn't there a multi-headed dragon with tons of breath weapons and extra hit dice, 'cause that would have been really cool." Some ppl love power, some like storyline, others like a balance of both. Hence the reason for this competition. I think if I had posted my Id/Ego/Superego guy, we would have had a more complex dragon that met the lots of heads and breath weapons scenario without being INSANELY so. Unfortunately, I didn't think to use that until well after submissions were ended... ahh well, he wouldn't have been picked to be nominated anyway.
Nathan_Lazaret 08-29-06, 09:45 AM	I think if I had posted my Id/Ego/Superego guy, we would have had a more complex dragon that met the lots of heads and breath weapons scenario without being INSANELY so. Unfortunately, I didn't think to use that until well after submissions were ended... ahh well, he wouldn't have been picked to be nominated anyway. Ya that would have made the difference!:rolleyes: Don't you understand that it is not about power or templates or CR's. It's a popularity contest simple as that. It's also about creativity and originality. Your ideas all seem to come out of Alice in wonderland. Come on, a chess match to the death! it's so trite I think I saw it on a episode of Scooby Doo. Let it go dude. Be happy that you made it to the first round. Stop playing the perpetual victim. You asked why everyone keeps bringing up Cheese Master. It's because you keep bring up Cheese Master in your ever so eloquent passive aggressive way. Peace out. Nate
Balor von Balorvitch 08-29-06, 12:55 PM	Like I said: Antimagic fields are a developers nightmare. Hmm maybe but they are core, unlike mosty other things and I think tailsmens in the OA can grant one use of AMF. But as for maintaining his human form..... look a monkey! LOL (Sry my bad)
TheyCallMeTomu 08-29-06, 01:00 PM	GUH! fOR THE LOVE OF-BLARGH! I already told you that I'm ****** because now people think whenever I talk about Chessmaster or anything else I'm just playing the victim. I'M NOT TRYING TO PLAY THE VICTIM! Well I am now, BECAUSE EVERYONE SEEMS TO THINK I'M TRYING TO PLAY THE VICTIM! GYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA <rips hair out> Anyway, it is a popularity contest, and a lot of people prefer the alice in wonderland style to the "slap something simple on and call it done" approach. The Psyche dragon doesn't really fall into either category, but in retrospect it's not appropriate for a fantasy campaign, as the concepts of Ego, Id, and Superego aren't invented until well af-WAIT A SECOND! If that's the case, why is there a power called Id Insinuation?!? <Telepath> Feel the wrath of my Id Insinuation! <Scholar of the ages> ... what the heck is that supposed to mean? <Telepath> How the hell should I know, I'm not the one who named it... Edit: BTW Balor... OA is 3.0 so I wouldn't trust any of the game material in there that wasn't explicitly updated in the Dragon Magazine that dealt with it (especially not single use Antimagic field talismans... <shudders>)
Balor von Balorvitch 08-29-06, 03:59 PM	Edit: BTW Balor... OA is 3.0 so I wouldn't trust any of the game material in there that wasn't explicitly updated in the Dragon Magazine that dealt with it (especially not single use Antimagic field talismans... <shudders>) Well then that seems dreadfully unfair to me lol. Palsha is going up aganist a red dragon with 12 heads and your giving me the gears about using a WoTC 3e product :rofl: Oh and while i am at it, i assume = cr so Palshas going to get a massive beef up. Unless i missed something every dragon is on equal playing field.
Trill 08-29-06, 07:00 PM	There seems to be a lot of debate going on about why certain dragons win, I just wanted to add my 2 cents. I don't know all the stats, skills, and hps etc. of all these dragons - and when I'm playing, isn't it "meta-game" to think about all of these points (who knows what those crazy DM's factor in ;) )- so I've been voting on the STORY that was written about each of the dragons, not which dragon could "kill" the dragon that it's up against.
TheyCallMeTomu 08-29-06, 07:03 PM	If you wanna hear what I think about ARcflare, just look at the shoutbox on the voting page. It's been there since just after Chessmaster. Oiy. As for Palsha vs. Arcflare: Arcflare has 12 breath weapons. There is NO point where Arcflare and Palsha would be equal CR and Palsha would win in a direct fight, even if Palsha's samurai levels were Gestalted. Arcflare's greatest strength is his huge number of attacks and his incredibly high HP (the breath weapon is irrelevant because you can just cast Energy Immunity and be done with it). Palsha would have to somehow take down Arcflare despite his huge number of bite attacks. Hmmm... I guess if he used Scale Weakening on Arcflare, and used Robilar's Gambit with Combat Reflexes, he might be able to make a huge arsenal of attacks of opportunity against Arcflare. Doing this, he could one by one sever Arcflare's necks. Arcflare would have to somehow counter the assault, but I don't know how, as he has crummy spellcasting. Hmmmm... Karmic Strike is a reasonable feat for a samurai to have... ahh what the hey, I'm switching my vote to Palsha: he beat Chessmaster so he can't be all that bad, and a silver dragon with tactics gleaned from Complete Warrior, PHB2, and the original Oriental Adventures can clean up. Edit: This being said, Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit can have some of the same overpoweredness as a twelve headed dragon. Yikes!
Watchdog_of_Hades 08-29-06, 08:24 PM	Gimme an A! Gimme an R! Gimme a C! Gimme an F! Gimme an L! Gimme an A! Gimme an R! Gimme an E! Arcflare! Argument for Arcflare: this isn't a power contest. It's a popularity contest. The fact that the multiheaded template is overpowered is therefore irrelevant. However, it is unique. That makes Arcflare unique. That should make him more popular. Argument against Arcflare: he's really just a half-dragon hydra. Problem with the argument against Arcflare: that's to say that he's just a thing with the half-dragon template. Which is really what pretty much everything else in the competition is. Kikkericqqeua is as much a half-dragon monstrous spider as Arcflare is a half-dragon hydra. Korosagra is a half-dragon monk. Everything in the contest can be approximated by saying, "Half-dragon [thing]." Arguments against Palsha:Palsha's a draconic emperor with samurai subjects. Vote for him and it'll be seppuku for you before you can say "Not disembowelling myself is dishonourable!"Chessmaster is a perfect major villain for a campaign, and the character design is wonderful. Palsha is just a dragon wh is a samurai, with a basic character anyone could think upCome on, Palsha isn't even that creative a concept! If he was a fighter, knight or paladin with the same background he wouldn't even be in this competitionHere's to Palsha getting beaten in the next round.Palsha, really Palsha won, and by such a large margin, a silly Sliver Dragon Samurai, that would have got its butt kicked all over the place won. Wow that was...was...let me get a thesaurus, lets see ridiculous, absurd, asinine, witless, ah here it is... wow that’s ludicrous. Yup ludicrous, that’s it I'm not even bothering to look at these competitions any more, it seems the silliest entries always win....but anyways ill vote against palsha til he loses. PALSHA MUST DIE.But really, Palsha grindes my gears. And not in a sexually explicit or otherwise good way. No contest! Only two or three people seem to be staunchly defending Palsha. The majority clearly support Arcflare. You can bet your sweet bippie that the only vote you get will be 100% wasted if you vote against the awesome might of the red leviathan.
Bongitybongbong 08-29-06, 10:06 PM	The problem with Arcflare is that he really isn't unique at all...tell me you never thought of multi-headed dragons since you where 5ish. Single headed dragons seem to normally have a deeper storyline because the multiheaded ones I've seen are BBEG planted to kill everything at the end of the campaign when the story's summed up and there needs to be an epic battle. Arcflare seems like he might have some storyline to actually get the attention of PC's, but when it comes down to it, he's just that 5-year old creation actually written in an articulate form.
TheyCallMeTomu 08-29-06, 10:11 PM	Watchdog, the thing with Arcflare is that it's pretty much just a red skinned lizardlike twelve headed firebreathing monster. Those have been around for a looooooong time. It doesn't have originality, it doesn't have vibrance. If you were going to use the Geneticmanipulationomancy explanation for a creature, it might have been better if it was a creature that we don't normally see in the game screen. OR you could have pointed out that Arcflare masquerades as a pyrohydra in order to confuse people into thinking he's a lot more dangerous (in short, make your greatest weakness into your greatest strength). Or did you, and WotC just shafted you in the summary? Eh. Palsha story wise is sort of weak. And popularity wise I don't like either contestent. I've voted for Arcflare once, I'll vote for Palsha once (these things strangely let you vote multiple times if you wait long enough). In combat, I'm not so certain that Palsha would lose.
ElricsBane 08-29-06, 10:18 PM	Palsha! I vote intelligence over pure might. And wouldn't Arcflare be much smaller because of his crossing with a Hydra?
Quicksilver 08-29-06, 10:44 PM	Good one Watchdog! I see that you quoted me twice in the anti-Palsha barrages. He was up against my silver when I wrote the first one. I still have a bit of a grudge against him. I have a suggestion for how to help people decide: both Watchdog and Balor are active on this list, so why not describe how each would win this bout? I'm not talking about jargon-heavy gamespeak, but a description more like the backstories that everyone loves. I see two possibilities, both of which remind me of japanese movie: 1. Palsha wins by skillfully dodging here and there animae-style, hacking off Arcflare's heads left and right with a Colossal katana as he dodges fire breath. 2. Arcflare rampages through Palsha's empire, kicking down buildings and burning down villages, heads flailing like a man-in-rubber-suit monster movie. After killing off armies of human samurai, Arcflare faces the emporer in single combat. There is a back and forth battle, which ends with Arcflare, the title monster, burning down Palsha and leaving. Who has a different suggestion for how the combat could go?
Helian 08-29-06, 10:47 PM	Palsha! I vote intelligence over pure might. And wouldn't Arcflare be much smaller because of his crossing with a Hydra? Arcflare gained his 12 heads by using the multiheaded template, not from being part hydra. I can see your confusion however, as he has been accused of just being a overgrown hydra numerous times!
TheyCallMeTomu 08-30-06, 12:01 AM	Actually, Arcflare was genetically bred WITH a hydra. And Arcflares intelligence WOULD be lower assuming the same CR, because he's of a younger age category (+7 CR means he has to be a lower age category to have the same Cr as Palsha... unless you point out how samurai class levels would skyrocket his CR, in which case Palsha is HORRIBLY DOOMED!!!)
Watchdog_of_Hades 08-30-06, 12:30 AM	Watchdog, the thing with Arcflare is that it's pretty much just a red skinned lizardlike twelve headed firebreathing monster. Those have been around for a looooooong time. It doesn't have originality, it doesn't have vibrance.And Palsha's just a silver skinned lizardlike firebreathing monster. Those have been around for longer. I'll not worry about future combats when the time comes, and defend Arcflare by comparing to later (to be late even later) competitors later. All that matters now is whether Arcflare's better than Palsha, not whether he's better than someone-or-other, to be announced in 1.5 weeks.
TheyCallMeTomu 08-30-06, 02:59 AM	I'm just saying the mad scienmage making a hydra suddenly firebreathing has been done before. A silver dragon samurai? ... ... ... actually, it should be removed from the competition on violation of copyright. Silver Samurai is an X-men villian. Like I said, I'm suddenly pretty neutral in this debate. On the one hand, if Palsha wins than at least Chessmaster was beaten by the best. On the other hand... I really don't want Palsha to win. But my favorite at this point is Foda.
Balor von Balorvitch 08-30-06, 01:04 PM	Hmmmm... Karmic Strike is a reasonable feat for a samurai to have... ahh what the hey, I'm switching my vote to Palsha: he beat Chessmaster so he can't be all that bad, and a silver dragon with tactics gleaned from Complete Warrior, PHB2, and the original Oriental Adventures can clean up. Edit: This being said, Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit can have some of the same overpoweredness as a twelve headed dragon. Yikes! :confused: ummmm thanks for the support Tomu, I need all i can get. I have a suggestion for how to help people decide: both Watchdog and Balor are active on this list, so why not describe how each would win this bout? I'm not talking about jargon-heavy gamespeak, but a description more like the backstories that everyone loves. I accept the challenge! Let the best fiend win Cerberus! A:I'm just saying the mad scienmage making a hydra suddenly firebreathing has been done before. B:A silver dragon samurai? ... ... ... actually, it should be removed from the competition on violation of copyright. Silver Samurai is an X-men villian. A:Yeah its called King Ghidorah, Arc Fire basically a Gozilla villian lol. (Hmm that doesn't exactly work in my favor.....) B: I didn't releaze that until after i made Palsha lol. That guy is loser anyhow and its a strech to say the silver samurai is the base for Palsha Sliver Dragon Samurai. Here is a quote for the WoTC quote block Palsha Prevails
Watchdog_of_Hades 08-30-06, 06:42 PM	1. I don't understand what the challenge is that you're accepting. 2. I'll bet they just roll a die or something for every post, and one one specific number, they put a portion of that into the quote block. You're clearly trying to bias peoples' opinions of the dragons, completely unlike my second-to-last post.
TheyCallMeTomu 08-30-06, 07:15 PM	I increasingly think that this "Have the people from the forums make the dragons" idea was a bad one. Too much bad blood to be shared, so to speak... then again, only Watchdog Balor and I actually made dragons in the competition (though we're also the primary ones bickering). People vote for who they want to. I generally vote for whomever I think could reasonably win, and who I "like more." I voted gan because I liked him more than a vampiric dragon; hes so cute. But he LOST! the LOSER!
Helian 08-30-06, 08:10 PM	only Watchdog Balor and I actually made dragons in the competition (though we're also the primary ones bickering). Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Look again sunshine.......
Watchdog_of_Hades 08-30-06, 08:34 PM	This is bickering? I'm only trying to get people to vote for my precious baby. If I've done something to generate bad blood, sorry. I just feel this overwhelming need to WIN! *awkward silence* So... yeah. How're them niners doin'?
TheyCallMeTomu 08-30-06, 11:57 PM	Oh. Helian made the vampiric dragon. YOU KILLED GAN! CURSE YOOOOOOOU!!!
Helian 08-31-06, 12:05 AM	Oh. Helian made the vampiric dragon. YOU KILLED GAN! CURSE YOOOOOOOU!!! Well, I didnt kill Gan, neither did my vamp essentially, the voters did. Like the NRA says "guns dont kill people, people kill people"
Quicksilver 08-31-06, 12:32 AM	I increasingly think that this "Have the people from the forums make the dragons" idea was a bad one. Too much bad blood to be shared, so to speak... then again, only Watchdog Balor and I actually made dragons in the competition (though we're also the primary ones bickering). People vote for who they want to. I generally vote for whomever I think could reasonably win, and who I "like more." I voted gan because I liked him more than a vampiric dragon; hes so cute. But he LOST! the LOSER! Hey, you're forgetting those of us whose dragons were picked, but failed in the same-type voting. I'm still smarting from being defeated by Palsha, the needle-stuck voodoo doll dragon of these boards. In remembering my old grudge, I've voted Arcflare.
Balor von Balorvitch 08-31-06, 09:13 AM	This is bickering? I'm only trying to get people to vote for my precious baby. If I've done something to generate bad blood, sorry. I just feel this overwhelming need to lol I can take bickering, its when peeps are calling me an idiot then threatening to report me or something And on that note.... ...... You're clearly trying to bias peoples' opinions of the dragons, completely unlike my second-to-last post. I don't understand. Is not our aim to bias opinons so our dragons win not unlike the Palsha sucks chant going around town. You say Samurai Fanboy I say Over Blown Piro Hydra.... or is it Overblown PiroHydra? Thats it, it is Over Blown Pyro Hydra but through the bickering Palsha Prevails
Balor von Balorvitch 08-31-06, 09:20 AM	Like the NRA says "guns dont kill people, people kill people" Or as Family guy NRA says "Guns don't kill people, dangerous minorities do." And i would consider vampire dragons in the minority and quite dangerous.
TheyCallMeTomu 08-31-06, 02:40 PM	Guns don't kill people... bullets do.
Balor von Balorvitch 08-31-06, 03:42 PM	Like the NRA says "guns dont kill people, people kill people" Wait a minute, I thought guns were bad? Narrator: False! Did you know Jesus and Moses used guns to defeat the Romans? *cuts to scene with Jesus and Moses shooting Roman soldiers
TheyCallMeTomu 08-31-06, 05:53 PM	How stupid. Moses didn't use guns to defeat the romans... they didn't come for another hundreds or thousands of years until afterwords!
TheyCallMeTomu 08-31-06, 05:54 PM	BTW Watchdog, I think I would have prefered Arcflare if he had, say, seven or eight heads. Giving him twelve is maximizing his Hydraesquepowers. Obviously you can't do five heads or else he's Tiamat!
Balor von Balorvitch 08-31-06, 05:54 PM	How stupid. Moses didn't use guns to defeat the romans... they didn't come for another hundreds or thousands of years until afterwords! Ah.... Maybe that one was lost on you
Watchdog_of_Hades 08-31-06, 06:20 PM	Guns don't kill people... bullets do.Well, when you get right down to it, the kinetic energy of the bullet being transferred to you and rearranging parts of you not meant to be rearranged kills you. Not bullets. I don't understand. Is not our aim to bias opinons so our dragons win not unlike the Palsha sucks chant going around town. You say Samurai Fanboy I say Over Blown Piro Hydra.... or is it Overblown PiroHydra? Thats it, it is Over Blown Pyro HydraI have not said "samurai fanboy." Check every one of my posts if you want. I don't think I've ever called someone a "fanboy." Not even people whose only characters are dark elves named Zz'dtri that wield double scimitars, even if they're wizards rather than rangers. And I was joking about the biasing. You say "Overblown pyrohydra," I say "Just plain normal dragon." but through the bickering Palsha PrevailsPfft. Arcflare annuls Palsha's prevailing!
TheyCallMeTomu 08-31-06, 08:44 PM	Well, I think we can all agree that Chessmaster vs. Arcflare would have been a much better battle. Eh? Eh?
Aurotuli 08-31-06, 11:16 PM	I voted for the Palsha. Arcflare is just the sort of foe I can see this dragon seeking out to slay for the good of all (or at least for the good of his former empire). It would be a close and difficult battle, but in the end I wish to believe that the hero - rather than the monster - would win. I won't be completely surprised if Arc Flare wins, but I hold out hope for Palsha. Next match I'm going to have fun and vote for Fosa. Perhaps he is the unlikely choice (considering his foe), but he isn't completely over matched, and his is a fun concept to play with.
Watchdog_of_Hades 08-31-06, 11:20 PM	*vein pulses* MONSTER!? Oh, and if Palsha rushed into Arcflare's lair while the "overblown pyrohydra" was happily counting his gold and started to kill him? Who'd the monster be then?
TheyCallMeTomu 08-31-06, 11:59 PM	Samurai have a code of honor that favors the nobility. Kind of like the ancient greeks; certain abhorrent things were actually considered heroic. No one has the Vow of Peace yo. And of COURSE Arcflare is a monster. If I recall, you described him as the genetic resultant of a mage mixing a hydra with a red dragon; he's a genetic monstrosity! Just because he has the intelligence of a red dragon doesn't make him any less of a monster.
Quicksilver 09-01-06, 12:39 AM	Where are the descriptions of the combat? Balor, Watchdog if you want votes then detail how your dragon would win against the other. Don't attack the concept, rip the heart out of your foe!
Balor von Balorvitch 09-01-06, 09:26 AM	Where are the descriptions of the combat? Balor, Watchdog if you want votes then detail how your dragon would win against the other. Don't attack the concept, rip the heart out of your foe! Hmmm i started the story but to what end? I think 3 maybe 4 other people might read it. Also most people vote before they go on to discuss this weeks selecions. Having said that i am still writing my story, but what do you want to hear how Palsha will crush the monster Pyro Hydra or his victory over Chessmaster?
TheyCallMeTomu 09-01-06, 12:45 PM	Victory over Chessmaster. Haw! Chessmaster just didn't give Palsha enough credit to even bother showing up and it was counted as a forfeit. I can imagine no other way in which Palsha would have obtained victory.
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-01-06, 08:30 PM	And of COURSE Arcflare is a monster. If I recall, you described him as the genetic resultant of a mage mixing a hydra with a red dragon; he's a genetic monstrosity! Just because he has the intelligence of a red dragon doesn't make him any less of a monster.So... you discriminate against dragons and hydras? You're really just saying he's a monster because of his parents... or the things that supplied his genetic material, at least.
Helian 09-01-06, 09:44 PM	Well, if I remember correctly the dragon and the hydra are listed in the MONSTER manuals....!!!!!.....!!!!!!....!!!!!!:D
TheyCallMeTomu 09-01-06, 10:22 PM	Well, at the very least he is: a.) a genetic chimera b.) a monster by the most technical definitioon of the term, and probably definable as a monstrosity as well c.) Still likely to be less intelligent than Palsha even if neither is a monster, so the "I voted for Intelligence" arguement stands. Sorry helian, using the "Monster Manual" arguement means that Palsha would also be a monster. Though I guess that's acceptable. But technically, the MULTIHEADED template isn't in the Monster Manual, it's in savage species. So if you vote for Palsha, vote for the monster over the savage.
Helian 09-01-06, 10:34 PM	Sorry helian, using the "Monster Manual" arguement means that Palsha would also be a monster. Though I guess that's acceptable. But technically, the MULTIHEADED template isn't in the Monster Manual, it's in savage species. So if you vote for Palsha, vote for the monster over the savage. Dude, it was a joke, hence the ....!!!!....!!!! and the :D But if ya wanna get technical they ARE both monsters regardless of what book the multiheaded template is in. The template is still being applied to a monster. And yes, I am saying that Palsha is also a monster. As are my entries, your entries and everone elses entries... it a DRAGON contest involving DRAGONS which are............. FREAKIN' MONSTERS!!!!!!!
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-02-06, 10:47 AM	Palsha'd have to be Ancient, Wyrm, or Great Wyrm to beat Arcflare's Intelligence score. Also, don't forget that two heads are better than one. And two heads are also better than wither of those aforementioned two heads, so four heads are better than two. Carry that a few steps farther, and you'll see that twelve heads are much better than one. Now for the Savage Species argument. First off, "savage" is a term applied almost exclusively to humans. Barbaric humans, but still humans. So I counter with "Vote for the savage, not the inhuman monstrosity." Now, let's review. What, exactly, is in Savage Species? Astral devas. Are they very savage? Hound archons. Also neutral good. Trumpet archons. Ghaele. Not sure what the plural is. Avorals. Noble djinni. Nobles are generally extremely unsavage. Lillends. Just read their description in the Monster Manual to see their savagery. Sprites. Pranksters, yes, but hardly savages.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-02-06, 11:00 AM	Oh for the love of-it was an arguement based on semantics. And we're talking about roughly equivalent CR. So if Palsha has to be an ancient silver dragon to beat Arcflare's intelligence, then Arcflare (barring OTHER bonuses to intelligence, but we'll ignore that for now) must be at least Ancient as well (24 intelligence). So if Arcflare is an Ancient 12 headed Red Dragon (CR 30), then Palsha must be an Old Silver Dragon with 20 levels of Samurai (because the samurai class, while granting full BAB, doesn't really up his general capabilities much) also coming to CR 30. Eh, looks like Palsha would lose out on that front; class levels is a no-win situation for dragons in general (I only used em on Chessmaster because I cheated by a.) replacing sorcerer levels with psion levels and b.) gestalting him). And as much as you're joking, as I often do with these types of jokes, I'll take it seriously-two heads is better than one assumes two MINDS. Arcflare was never described as having that (Chessmaster was though). Arcflare only gets one set of actions, so the big "two heads" thing doesn't come through. Now if someone cast manyschism on him, THEN he'd be a force to be reckoned with...
TheyCallMeTomu 09-03-06, 09:17 PM	Once again, the board is dead.
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-03-06, 09:37 PM	And as much as you're joking, as I often do with these types of jokes, I'll take it seriously-two heads is better than one assumes two MINDS. Arcflare was never described as having that (Chessmaster was though). Arcflare only gets one set of actions, so the big "two heads" thing doesn't come through. Now if someone cast manyschism on him, THEN he'd be a force to be reckoned with...Yeah. But that would mean he'd be able to kill gods in with a full attack. Assuming Demogorgon-esque rules, he has twelve bites, twenty-four claws and wings, and twelve tail slaps. If he only hits a quarter of the time, that's an average of 463.5 damage per round.
Quicksilver 09-04-06, 12:03 AM	Once again, the board is dead. If you, Watchdog and Helian just use this board to bicker and make semantic and game stat arguments, no wonder it's dead. The staff aren't helping with any kind of comment or descriptions of the combats. The outcome of the Palsha and Arcflare showdown should bring up some comment.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-04-06, 12:10 AM	Arcflare attacks Palsha twelve times a round. Palsha uses Karmic Strike, and COUNTER attacks twelve times a round (as he OBVIOUSLY must have phenomenal dexterity... or else he's screwed!) and then uses a full round of attacks. Since he's one bigass dragon he must have a bigass katana so he deals more damage per hit AND since they're both CR 30, he probably has an epic weapon too, which'll help with his attack and damage yo! And BTW: Arcflare might be able to deal 400+ damage, but he can't bypass DR/epic so that'd be reduced by a heckofalot. Damned good thing too: Arcflare doesn't need to be even MORE powerful. Edit: Don't most gods have HPs wel over 400, and have divine shield to boot?
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-04-06, 12:36 PM	Yeah, so I exaggerated a little. But not by much. Here's another possible sequence of events. Arcflare breathes on Palsha with all twelve heads the surprise round*. Average damage: 1458. Dead. It's true that Palsha might survive. After much calculation, I find that the likelyhood of his surviving is only 8 standard deviations away from the mean. That means that he will live about 1/6000000000000000 of of the time. That's 1/(6*(10^16)) of the time. Do we need to talk about what will happen in that 1/(6*(10^16)) of the time? * Arcflare will get the surprise round. Palsha has an empire to run. He also has to sleep. Arcflare can wait, then Scry and Die, for example, or just fly down from really high up with Invisibility on. Palsha can't have True Seeing on all the time. The calculations below are on Matlab, if you doubt me. For some reason, it wouldn't let me use a spoiler. % Make a counter. wins = 0; losses = 0; t = 0; while t < 1000; t = t + 1; totaldam = 0; breath = 0; while breath < 12; breath = breath + 1; % One breath: A = 0; n = 0; while n < 24; A = A + ceil(rand*8); n = n + 1; end; A = A * 1.5; B = ceil(rand*20); if B > 15; A = A*1/2; end; totaldam = totaldam + A; end; % That's the breath loop. scores(t) = totaldam; if totaldam < 653; losses = losses + 1; else; wins = wins + 1; end; end; display(wins) display(losses) display((mean(scores)-653)/std(scores))
TheyCallMeTomu 09-04-06, 03:44 PM	Arcflare wouldn't get a surprise round; if Arcflare has time to prepare, so does Palsha, and Palsha has more mass resources to draw upon (ahem: Empire? Gotta be a bunch of spellcasters therein). Moreover, Spot is a samurai class skill if I recall, whereas hide isn't a red dragon class skill AND as a huge or gargantuan or larger entity, he suffers penalties to hide. Realy high spot checks can bypass invisibility (heck it's a staple of Samurai drama to be able to see the invisible). Finally, high enough spellcasting allows for the spell Energy immunity, which makes Arcflare's breath weapon completely irrelevant. Edit: Like I said before, the only thing !@#$ing Palsha over is that, presumably, his samurai levels are added straight on, meaning if you want an equal CR fight, Palsha is weighed down HORRIBLY by his levels... or is he? If you're giving him class levels, and it's +1 per 1, Palsha would PRESUMABLY have the WEALTH of a character of 50th+ level (because the ECL for a Silver Dragon thato ld is pretty damned high). So, at the very least Palsha could afford a ring of fire immunity, a +6 Dragon Dread Katana, and some other nifty gear. Like I said, Arcflare's breath weapon is practically a sight gag that's easy enough to bypass.
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-04-06, 05:08 PM	So we're assuming that everyone has treasure specifically tailored to defeat the other side? Well, then. Here's some of what Arcflare has, and they aren't even good against only Palsha. Item of universal elemental immunity. Amulet of Greater Dispel Magic at will, caster level 20, sovereign glued to the inside of his sternum. Claw ring of Wall of Force at will, caster level 20. Claw ring of Greater Teleport at will. 10 mirrors of opposition, sovereign glued to various points on his body and Wished to be covered with permanent Walls of Force. Palsha sees his reflection in the mirrors. Palsha has to fight Palsha. Arcflare, while they're fighting, keeps trying to dispel the normal Palsha's fire immunity. When he does, he fries the real one, which causes the false one to disappear. If things are going bad, Arcflare teleports away, then comes back later and repeats. As for Palsha having more resources than Arcflare, it's one on one. Not Palsha and his empire against Arcflare. Or we could assume that Arcflare has a few kingdoms in his claws also, in which case he has several wizards to cast Walls of Force around Palsha with tiny cracks, some more to cast more walls if Palsha uses Gaseous Form or something, one to cast Dimensional Anchor and then a few more to cast Cloudkill.
WizO_Sith 09-05-06, 09:49 AM	Flaming, bashing, and/or insults are never acceptable on these forums. Also, please refrain from responding to insults/flames/bashes, it only serves to enlarge the conflict and create more work for the moderators (in the way of additional posts we have to delete). Thank you for your understanding and compliance.
Balor von Balorvitch 09-05-06, 12:51 PM	What can i say........... Palsha Prevails! and that makes me happy. I am excited about the semi finals though. Arilasadetonima: This Dragon will test once again if Palsha is the lord of all silvers, living, dead and undead. The Draco-Lich is a worthy foe who is the anthesis of all of Palshas beliefs (LG vs CE) It will be a exciting battle, may the best Sliver win. Hopefully when the sunrises an emperror will be holding Arilasadetonima's saying "Ashs to ashs, dust to dust." Foda: This Dragon appeals to Palshas OA side. While Drunken Master is not from the OA i get the feeling that it fighting similar to Chinese martial arts (aka Jackie Chan) While both metal dragons are LG and would not by choice fight one another, if we must make some crazy collasal katanas vs Miǎn lung fu so much the better. It will come down to 2 equal metal dragons but the question of Samurai vs Martial Artist, what is the coolest Asian concept will be solved. I voted for Foda! Go Eastern showdown! (Opps Arilasadetonima is a Lich one not the Vampire)
TheyCallMeTomu 09-05-06, 03:04 PM	Once again, sorry about the flaming Watchdog (I guess the mods removed it... good to know they're watching), I was just upset with your misinterpretation of what I was saying and flagrant straw man arguement. I posted an apology in an edit, but I didn't undo the flame, so it got removed. I'm not upset that Palsha won; if nothing else, this sugguests that Chessmaster would have beaten Arcflare. But it does seem rediculous by the margin that Palsha won by. Yeesh! I voted Foda too. A fat drunken super martial artist gold makes me happy. A dracolich silver is just <refraims from flaming>. So it'll either be silver vs silver or silver vs. gold. Nifty. Edit: BTW Balor, Eberron isn't dungeons and dragons, it's a dungeons and dragons GAME. I tend to run campaigns like that.
VrockLord88 09-05-06, 05:33 PM	There seems to be a lot of debate going on about why certain dragons win, I just wanted to add my 2 cents. I don't know all the stats, skills, and hps etc. of all these dragons - and when I'm playing, isn't it "meta-game" to think about all of these points (who knows what those crazy DM's factor in ;) )- so I've been voting on the STORY that was written about each of the dragons, not which dragon could "kill" the dragon that it's up against. i agree with Trill on this topic, i couldn't care less about the HP or AC of the dragon, but then again, i am really into the ROLE-PLAYING, not the ROLL-PLAYING
Helian 09-05-06, 06:00 PM	i agree with Trill on this topic, i couldn't care less about the HP or AC of the dragon, but then again, i am really into the ROLE-PLAYING, not the ROLL-PLAYING Here here..........
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-05-06, 06:26 PM	This can't be right. Let me restart my computer. *reboots* *stunned silence* *whimper*
TheyCallMeTomu 09-05-06, 06:52 PM	OH FOR THE LOVE OF-Fine, you know what? Go ahead and call it "roll-playing" I am so tired of that childish pun designed to make fun of people who HAPPEN to like the usage of rules. You want to role-play instead of roll play? Then go play free form! Don't criticize the rest of us when we like the stats. Tch. Edit: As for you, Watchdog, I know how you feel. I was pretty ticked when Chessmaster lost to Palsha myself. I thought to myself, "Palsha, now that's just a random series of class levels on an otherwise non-oriental dragon! No one in their right mind would have voted Palsha over Chessmaster!" But I've come to understand Palsha's charm. Watchdog, all I can say is for you to vote for Palsha from now on, saying you lost to the best, and if it weren't for that accursed samurai, you'd have won this stupid competition! Of course, I''m going to vote for Foda myself.
Donald_Cannith 09-05-06, 07:01 PM	wel ive been watchingfrom afar and ive been voting i nthis contest and i have to say i have not voted for one single winner withthe exceptn of gan but he too has lost now. I honestly dont know whos going to win now my intial instincts say its everyones favorite vampiric dragon but at this rate. i dunno. I initially thoguht Gan ,chessmaster and korosoga were the best cocepts but seeing as ALL of them lost. maybe i just have bad taste
Helian 09-05-06, 08:06 PM	wel ive been watchingfrom afar and ive been voting i nthis contest and i have to say i have not voted for one single winner withthe exceptn of gan but he too has lost now. I honestly dont know whos going to win now my intial instincts say its everyones favorite vampiric dragon but at this rate. i dunno. I initially thoguht Gan ,chessmaster and korosoga were the best cocepts but seeing as ALL of them lost. maybe i just have bad taste Korosagra is still in it bro, so no you don't have bad taste at all!
Helian 09-05-06, 08:12 PM	OH FOR THE LOVE OF-Fine, you know what? Go ahead and call it "roll-playing" I am so tired of that childish pun designed to make fun of people who HAPPEN to like the usage of rules. You want to role-play instead of roll play? Then go play free form! Don't criticize the rest of us when we like the stats. Tch. Hey, no one loves creating a matrix of character advancement more than myself, however, without a good storyline or character to go with it, its just math.
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-05-06, 08:33 PM	As for you, Watchdog, I know how you feel. I was pretty ticked when Chessmaster lost to Palsha myself. I thought to myself, "Palsha, now that's just a random series of class levels on an otherwise non-oriental dragon! No one in their right mind would have voted Palsha over Chessmaster!" But I've come to understand Palsha's charm.What is it? I feel the same way. As in your initial reaction, rather than understanding his charm.Watchdog, all I can say is for you to vote for Palsha from now on, saying you lost to the best, and if it weren't for that accursed samurai, you'd have won this stupid competition! Of course, I''m going to vote for Foda myself.Actually, I just want one thing now, even more than an excuse for Arcflare's loss. Revenge. I will not rest until Palsha dies a slow and agonizing death at the fangs of Caululithrax!
TheyCallMeTomu 09-05-06, 11:20 PM	Vote for Foda. Palsha still annoys me, but the Vampiric Dragon seems uninspired. The Dracolich is just a flagrant attempt at making a good guy bad, and that doesn't appeal to me! TCH!!! Foda! Foda! Foda! Foda! Go go go go! Foda foda foda foda! Go go go go go! Mostly, Palsha's appeal was that he WASN'T Arcflare, and he's more powerful than you might have first anticipated. FODA FOR THE WIN!
Balor von Balorvitch 09-06-06, 12:10 AM	.Actually, I just want one thing now, even more than an excuse for Arcflare's loss. Revenge. I will not rest until Palsha dies a slow and agonizing death at the hands of Caululithrax! If Palsha fails to win the next round it will just make Arc Flares & Chessmasters defeat more complete :D Foda seems like the better choice for the win this round due to the Draco-Lich low hp, Fodas intresting odd ball concept, and the fact (IMO) that the line of monster champions (Pally Bus, Vop Flitcher) should not contain another freaky-Friday reverse concept of what the monster actually is, although i would say the Silver Lich is quite possible and usable in an adventure (unlike the other 2 winners) For those reasons added with the basic fact that a Dragon Jackie Chan is just damn cool and Silver Busido vs Miǎn lung fu for the championship The Sloppy Succeeds!
TheyCallMeTomu 09-06-06, 12:18 AM	Pardon Perverted Pete, per participation protocall, pat prefers palsha's preferences promote personality pieces primarily posthumeously. Forget foda's faults, for foda falls far from five fiendish finances; foda finds finished finality for favoritism from fanboys. I still wish there was a double elimination bracket... Edit: BTW Watchdog, do you think WERE IT NOT FOR PALSHA, Chessmaster and Arcflare could have had a dire showdown?!? Curse that Samurai! The two heads versus twelve battle was supposed to be THE MOST AWESOME BATTLE IN THE TOURNAMENT!!!
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-06-06, 12:22 AM	If Palsha fails to win the next round it will just make Arc Flares & Chessmasters defeat more complete :DRevenge is revenge. I'll take what I can get.
Balor von Balorvitch 09-06-06, 12:55 AM	Pardon Perverted Pete, per participation protocall, pat prefers palsha's preferences promote personality pieces primarily posthumeously. Forget foda's faults, for foda falls far from five fiendish finances; foda finds finished finality for favoritism from fanboys. Nice alertration. you take Bard levels? ;) Palsha patiently ponders his punishing perfectly the preposterous plague of poly-headed protodragons past pounded Foda fast falls feinting freezing forenails for frozen femurs fail to finish frosty foam fisted fighters flailing frantic at a fleshless fiend. *breath I still wish there was a double elimination bracket... Edit: BTW Watchdog, do you think WERE IT NOT FOR PALSHA, Chessmaster and Arcflare could have had a dire showdown?!? Curse that Samurai! The two heads versus twelve battle was supposed to be THE MOST AWESOME BATTLE IN THE TOURNAMENT!!! Well Palsha fought both and finshed frist both times. And if anyone asks he will tell them he beat 12 red dragons, 1 white and 1 black and show the head mounts to prove it. And do really want to know if Chessmaster can beat Arc Flare? Losing twice would strip any dignity thats left in ether dragon.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-06-06, 10:23 AM	<Deleted double post>
TheyCallMeTomu 09-06-06, 10:23 AM	Well, to be fair, it's simply this: Chessmaster is more popular compared to Palsha than Arcflare is popular compared to Palsha. Doesn't mean that he would win in a head to head with that particular dragon... but it does mean I've got a good 10% lead on the guy ;D And tch. You can't assume that palsha actually killed his enemies. If nothing else, Chessmaster would have retreated after losing his first head (that being said, that makes defeat for him a good bit easier) so he could manifest Restore Extremity later on and get revenge. Palsha is totally going to have Samurai Champloo syndrome; a bunch of jerks from da past are gonna gangbeat em. Unless he loses here and now, of course. Palsha might be able to take on a 12 headed fire breather OR a two headed dual psion... but I somehow doubt he could take on both at once. And BTW: you cheated with your aliteration. Using as if, etc etc, is cheating. I could have made a much more coherent aliteration if I was allowed to use as if and things like that! FWA!
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-06-06, 10:54 AM	And Arcflare would obviously have a contingency of Teleport for if he's reduced to below half his normal health. And what's neat is that I don't even have to say that I lost to the best. I can just complain that WotC's setup made me lose. It's possible, for example, that lots of people would prefer a vampire to a samurai, a double-headed psion to a vampire, and then an overblown pyrohydra to a psion, and then Arcflare would kill the remaining competition because the ones that would've won have already been beaten by other dragons.
olostar 09-06-06, 11:51 AM	OH FOR THE LOVE OF-Fine, you know what? Go ahead and call it "roll-playing" I am so tired of that childish pun designed to make fun of people who HAPPEN to like the usage of rules. You want to role-play instead of roll play? Then go play free form! Don't criticize the rest of us when we like the stats. Tch. Vrocklord was only saying that his preference is role-playing, there was no criticism whatsoever. To each their own, his preference need not be that of anyone else, just as yours is particular to yourself. Btw, I fear for Foda, most if not every dragon that Tomu seems to back with such over the top zeal has gone down in flames and or died (except Chessmaster of course), as it were - if I was Dragna I would be petitioning Tomu to be cheering on Arilasadetonima in order to avoid the curse - although every curse is meant to be broken.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-06-06, 12:27 PM	Good point. I didn't vehemntly vote for either Palsha OR arcflare (I just argued that in combat, Arcflare could be beaten by 640000 GP: A Ring of Ironskin and a Ring of Fire Immunity), so I can't use that as a reference. I promoted Gan and he died ;.; I promoted Foda before and he won, but I didn't promote him vehemently. Honestly, I doubt anything that goes on in the message board has ANY effect on the tournament. It's just a moaning ground for the fallen. For the fallen.
Balor von Balorvitch 09-06-06, 01:19 PM	And Arcflare would obviously have a contingency of Teleport for if he's reduced to below half his normal health. Thats why he lost then, he cut and ran LOL. Tomu: As long as the majority of my words start with the same letter i think it is good enough On to Victory, In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished. However, this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation, stands vivified, and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin van-guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition. (Easy Cookie to find out that quote) And i think i have 2 drinking game for Foda. The Arc Flare: You must down 12 shots of fire ball rum each from the mouth of a dragon skull. The Chess Master: Play Chess as white, when you capture a piece take a shot of black rum, if your piece is captured take a shot of white rum, when someone calls check both players take a shot of both. If checkmate is called the loser downs 2 shots of each. (keeping in mind a 'shot' for foda is basically a galleon or more)
TheyCallMeTomu 09-06-06, 01:32 PM	Thats why he lost then, he cut and ran LOL. Tomu: As long as the majority of my words start with the same letter i think it is good enough On to Victory, In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate. This visage, no mere veneer of vanity, is a vestige of the vox populi, now vacant, vanished. However, this valorous visitation of a by-gone vexation, stands vivified, and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin van-guarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition. (Easy Cookie to find out that quote) And i think i have 2 drinking game for Foda. The Arc Flare: You must down 12 shots of fire ball rum each from the mouth of a dragon skull. The Chess Master: Play Chess as white, when you capture a piece take a shot of black rum, if your piece is captured take a shot of white rum, when someone calls check both players take a shot of both. If checkmate is called the loser downs 2 shots of each. (keeping in mind a 'shot' for foda is basically a galleon or more) I've gotta say I'd vote for Foda against Chessmaster were that game proposed. Chessmaster's malevolent style of playing would insist on taking every single piece... which means TONS OF ALCOHOL! Foda beats Chessmaster hands down. GO FO!
Balor von Balorvitch 09-06-06, 02:27 PM	I've gotta say I'd vote for Foda against Chessmaster were that game proposed. Chessmaster's malevolent style of playing would insist on taking every single piece... which means TONS OF ALCOHOL! Foda beats Chessmaster hands down. GO FO! I agree many things are debatable but Foda can't lose in a drinking contest. Palsha can drink a fair share of saki but Foda puts Bacardi 151 in his cheeros. :D
Helian 09-06-06, 06:04 PM	I agree many things are debatable but Foda can't lose in a drinking contest. Palsha can drink a fair share of saki but Foda puts Bacardi 151 in his cheeros. :D That raises a good question. Just how much alcohol would it take to get a collosal dragon hammered? I hope there is a brewery nearby or at least alot of skill points in profession brewer!!!!
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-06-06, 06:17 PM	Thats why he lost then, he cut and ran LOL.Retreat is not loss. It is delay. Arcflare, for the moment, is keeping an eye on the competition. When the "winner," wounded and staggering, emerges victoriously from the final battlefield, though...
TheyCallMeTomu 09-06-06, 09:31 PM	Dude, if he runs away, he loses. I mean, doesn't mean Palsha's not going to get a gangbeating after the tournament, but it DOES mean that Arcflare and Chessmaster lost. Losing is losing!
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-07-06, 10:01 AM	I disagree, but we're getting off topic.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-07-06, 10:46 AM	You know, considering I'm voting for Foda, chances are he's gonna lose. The competition will likely come down to Vampire vs. Dracolich. Bleh.
Balor von Balorvitch 09-07-06, 04:24 PM	You know, considering I'm voting for Foda, chances are he's gonna lose. The competition will likely come down to Vampire vs. Dracolich. Bleh. I think you mean Samurai vs Drunken Master or Sliver vs Silver :D and WatchDog since your previous math formula beared no proof, I must remind you that 63.8%>36.2% you can argue aganist logic but it will not help, Its the RAW deal lol. I have gone over the statistics and the Draco-pire won out by a large margin vs Gan so Palshas battle is far from won. I don't want to get into it until next weeks after Foda hopefully wins but here is my opening argument for Palsha But a Vampire Dragon (Admittedly logical by virtue of a vampire with a dragon sired is a better vampire indeed) has many weakness that being a dragon would not help. A:A normal vampire can blend into society while a Dragon would give much up if he assumed mortal form all night. B: The vast amounts of fresh blood will cause a much larger uproar in local peasants thus causing more attention than a vampire needs C: Aganist high level foes the vampiric powers become less and less useful. D;Every Night the Draco-pire must dig himself a large hole to rest in or find a huge coffin E: The places a size G dragon can hide to are quite limited and easily found. F:If said Dragon turned to Mist, Palsha can destroy him ala gust of wind. G: Weakness to sunlight/Sunbeam means the instant destruction of such a powerful foe if they fail a reflex (DC 20 lets say) H:CR +2 and life drinker levels may take its toll in = cr battle. I: The Dragon can still only drain 1d4 con with his bite after a pin. J: The vampires damage reduction is less than the dragons save for the fact it needs sliver as well. K: Anyone who knows about a shadow dragons will have protection aganist both the drain breath and the drain hits L:The dominate is only from a 12th lv caster so Ashs to ashs, Dust to dust Palsha Prevails
Balor von Balorvitch 09-07-06, 04:45 PM	BTW Palsha gets no love from the developers as he is shown as a Pseudodragon when his pic should look lik this :P http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/creaturecomp_silver.jpg
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-07-06, 06:46 PM	and WatchDog since your previous math formula beared no proofNo proof? I'm offended. Really. Observe. A=0; n=0; while n < 24; A = A + ceil(rand*8); n = n + 1; end; A is a d8. After every d8, you add 1 to n. This makes it so that you roll 24d8 (the damage of one head's breath). A = A*1.5 accounts for Palsha's fire vulnerability. B = ceil(rand*20); if B > 15; A = A*1/2; end; B is a d20. Palsha needs to roll a 16 or higher to make the Reflex save for half damage. totaldam = totaldam + A Totaldam is the total damage Palsha sustains. scores(t) = totaldam; That makes an array, called "scores," that I can call up later, which I do with... display((mean(scores)-653)/std(scores)) That tells you how many standard deviations (std's) away from the mean the amount of damage Palsha'd have to take to survive is. 8 standard deviations (which is the number) is 6/(10^16). Yes, I was a factor of 36 off in my original post. Apologies. I didn't only offer proof, I offered ironclad, infallible proof. Unless you're saying that over the 1000 times (actually, more like 5000; I did it more than once) I did this, all of the dice rolled unusually high. Like, 7's and 8's. I must remind you that 63.8%>36.2% you can argue aganist logic but it will not help, Its the RAW deal lol.I'm guessing that those are the numbers in the Palsha versus Arcflare battle. I'm not denying that Arcflare lost the popularity contest. I was responding to someone's, maybe Tomu's, assertion that in a power contest on even terms, Arcflare would lose. I'm not sure why you think I'm arguing against logic; it's on my side. Rules as written are, too.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-07-06, 07:22 PM	No no no, you responded to my asertion that people prefer Chessmaster to Palsha more than they prefer Arcflare to palsha. Or more accurately, they prefer Palsha to Chessmaster less than they prefer Palsha to Arcflare. THAT much is fact, and that's what I was saying earlier. As for your math, it's unclear what Palsha's saves are, whether or not he has items to resist fire, etc etc etc. But you DO have to admit that it is relatively easy (since the introduction of Complete Arcane, complete divine, and the Spell Compendium) for a character to become immune to a given energy form. There's really not much that can be said definitively about "who would win" until *we have definitive stats* Personally, I'd like to see definitive stats for all the dragons on a "relatively equal footing" (generally the same CR, but even that's debatable), but A.) that's not going to happen and B.) Even if it were to happen, it'd be better if it happened AFTER the competition.
Helian 09-07-06, 09:53 PM	But a Vampire Dragon (Admittedly logical by virtue of a vampire with a dragon sired is a better vampire indeed) has many weakness that being a dragon would not help. A:A normal vampire can blend into society while a Dragon would give much up if he assumed mortal form all night. B: The vast amounts of fresh blood will cause a much larger uproar in local peasants thus causing more attention than a vampire needs C: Aganist high level foes the vampiric powers become less and less useful. D;Every Night the Draco-pire must dig himself a large hole to rest in or find a huge coffin E: The places a size G dragon can hide to are quite limited and easily found. F:If said Dragon turned to Mist, Palsha can destroy him ala gust of wind. G: Weakness to sunlight/Sunbeam means the instant destruction of such a powerful foe if they fail a reflex (DC 20 lets say) E:CR +2 and life drinker levels may take its toll in = cr battle. F: The Dragon can still only drain 1d4 con with his bite after a pin. G: The vampires damage reduction is less than the dragons save for the fact it needs sliver as well. H: Anyone who knows about a shadow dragons will have protection aganist both the drain breath and the drain hits I:The dominate is only from a 12th lv caster Answers.... A. (edit) Why would a dragon want to blend into society?? (look one line below) B. Who said a vampire dragon can only feed on humans? C. Less and less? doubtful and not useless D. Umm.. dragons lair???? He'd have his own lair. Dig a hole? rediculous. E. Umm.. again... DRAGON'S LAIR F. Would never have to. G. Lifedriker class grants immunity to vampire weaknesses. H. What protection? magic items? no where did it say to bring the dragons hoard to the competition. That is an argument amongst Tomu, Watchdog and yourself. I. 12 level as a vampire not vampire dragon. Vampire dragon is dominate, 18th level as per draconomicon page 196. E#2. I guess I didn't read the rules through, as I didnt ever catch the = cr thing F#2. True, but that and 1 lvl drain per claw strike is realt bad news G#2. I'll have to look into whether the higher reduction is in effect or not. Looking......Ok found, it says, Vamp dragon retains all the special qualities of the base dragon and gains the ones listed.. this also included immunities. Draconomicon page 197 BTW..abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz =] I wont pump up my own entry, as it never does any good as Tomu and Watchdog would (grudgingly) attest to, but I will poke hole in your critisism!!!
Helian 09-07-06, 11:34 PM	What the hell, lets pump my entry. I wasn't going to mention that the web dudes left out Caululithrax's rogue class levels as I was winning with authority, and that no one really tried to pick apart my entry, but........ check it out. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=566471&page=11(edit) GRR damn old boards...link wont work.. page 11 half way down on creature competition 3. With improved evasion and high reflex saves, even without immunity to vampire weaknesses he would be hard pressed to fail a save. Also, rogue levels = sneak attack and shadow dragons creating shadows that deny opponents dexterity bonuses, compiled with shadow dragons being able to move and attack freely within said shadows is gonna be painful. Oh, and shadow dragons breath drains 8 levels...save for half.
Balor von Balorvitch 09-08-06, 10:30 AM	BTW..abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz =] Ummmm look another monkey :embarrass LOL Sorry dude, fixed You bring up good points with the whole immune to all vampire weaknesses and i didn't know the specfics of the life drinker class so i based my argument off a dragon with the vampire template even though vampire only works on humanoids Oh, and shadow dragons breath drains 8 levels...save for half.. As for your breath weapon and your draining touch both can be solved by a simple death ward just as Palshas can be solved by a few simple protect elements spells. If it means his life Palsha could always use limited wish to get a death ward on (lose xp or lose levels what a choice!) Speaking of which is your concept possible? A normal vampire must energy drain his foes to raise them as vampires, shadow dragons are immune to such. Can you explain how your dragon was turned? I assume = CR because to do other wise means Arc Flare and all the other uber Dragons win in combat everytime. I assume treasure because why not dragons have treasure any use them often and i also wrote it into my Palsha that he spent all his money on magic items rather than a lumpy bed (but it never made it into his description). Having said all this I prefer debating with a compeitor rather than discuss a foe my dragon personally defeated. :D
TheyCallMeTomu 09-08-06, 12:06 PM	People, people, please. Let me explain good rules. Not the rules, but good rules. We're talking equal CR here. But certain things raise CR way faster than other things, even if certain things don't grant much of a real power boost. Rogue levels would SKYROCKET the vampire's CR (+1 per two levels, same with Lifedrinker) but they wouldn't increase his base attack as much, they wouldn't increase his natural armor, etc etc etc. So, like with palsha, how do we deal with him having such a crappy amount of powers for his official CR? We give him player character starting wealth. Monsters only have wealth as per their CR on the treasure tables, but PCs have wealth beyond your wildest dreams. So a dragon with 10 rogue levels has +5 to it's CR, but capabilities much beneath that of which it would have if it's CR had risen by 5 via HD advancement. The equalizer then is the money it gets. This is the sort of thing I was talking about with Palsha: he would have more EQUIPMENT than Arcflare, because Palsha is fundamentally based on class levels (which fundamentally require equipment to be viable). However, that being said, we're still talking about, what, twenty character levels? That's +10 to his CR for some relatively minor benefits. I mean, sure he can use stored up constitution points to, what, add two to his DC and maximize his spell like abilities? You'd be better off taking Improved Metamagic, and if he had advanced as a dragon, he would have gotten Improved Spell Capacity for free. In short, I'd have to say the removal of his class levels was in his favor. That and technically, the NON-class level version of the dragon was the one nominated, not the one you made; they have every right to make whatever choices they want in butchering your dragon. She's no longer yours anymore <sniffle sniffle> Edit: BTW Baron, I'm pretty sure a dragon must level drain OR constitution drain.
Balor von Balorvitch 09-08-06, 12:21 PM	Edit: BTW Baron, I'm pretty sure a dragon must level drain OR constitution drain. The Con drain can stay (1d4 con) but it is useless as he needs to pin frist. The level Drain i can protect aganist if not with magic items then a limited wish BTW: When you said Baron you meant me right? LOL Everyone calls me Baron even though it is not in my name. Is it the Von? Are you making a connection with Baron Strahd von Zarovich? PS: From one Von to another i salute Strahd to making it to 3.5! :thumbsup:
Helian 09-08-06, 01:26 PM	You bring up good points with the whole immune to all vampire weaknesses and i didn't know the specfics of the life drinker class so i based my argument off a dragon with the vampire template even though vampire only works on humanoids . Speaking of which is your concept possible? A normal vampire must energy drain his foes to raise them as vampires, shadow dragons are immune to such. Can you explain how your dragon was turned? I assume = CR because to do other wise means Arc Flare and all the other uber Dragons win in combat everytime. I assume treasure because why not dragons have treasure any use them often and i also wrote it into my Palsha that he spent all his money on magic items rather than a lumpy bed (but it never made it into his description). Having said all this I prefer debating with a compeitor rather than discuss a foe my dragon personally defeated. :D 1st of all, vampires can create spawn also by con drain not JUST level drain. Second, I didn't add a vampire template I added Vampiric Dragon template, which is entirely different. Third, you know what they say about assuming.....On that note I figured if it was not based on story it would be at least a dragon vs dragon competition, like a boxing or UFC match. Not Sugar Ray Leonard and his magic boots of speed vs Muhammad Ali and his magic jock of Blinking. Simply a match of dragon fighting skills. I think everyone that votes takes into consideration CR, but votes for the flavour that they prefer. Also, what the heck are you talking about? "prefer debating with a competitor"???? Dude unless I'm mistaken its Caululithrax vs. Palsa in two weeks........ Seriously, take the time to look into the rules, monsters, and templates BEFORE trying to slag your competitors. Or at least to who you are up against.
Helian 09-08-06, 01:51 PM	On a side note, I really dont think that the voters take out a piece of paper, all there D&D books and sit for an hour trying to figure out which dragon is tougher at = CR, if they take CR into consideration at all for that matter. I think this is what Tomu and Watchdog kinda failed to realize why they (suprizingly) lost. I also think, Balor, that this is what you have failed to realize while you have been winning. It is not about who would really win in the fight with X magic item and Y spell. It is about someone quickly reading the butchered stories, taking it in and voting for the one that they understand, like, relate to or simply prefer over the other. Now, what would be really cool is if WOTC sent the final 8 say, to GENCON or whatever and have us battle it out with rules clearly stated. (magic items, Cr and the like) HUH HUH??? NUDGE NUDGE...... PSST.......WOTC Mark..... I think he's talking to you.....
Balor von Balorvitch 09-08-06, 02:34 PM	:confused: Helian: Did you need to use the UPPERCASE, when reading it i got the imperssion that you were angry, hopefully you are not Any way in the SRD under vampire it says you gain spawn through energy drain not through biting. Is Vampiric Dragon much different than vampire template save for the dragon part? I called you a compeitor because you are unlike Tomu and Watchdog (No offence) you still have a dragon left and in 2 weeks he will face off vs my dragon. I am preparing a debate for in 2 weeks it will be too late. If Foda or the Sliver Lichs creator were debating i would hold me tongue but it appears they are not and you and I have the forum. But i will stop picking your dragon appart if it offends you. But rember its all fun and games until Arc Flare loses a head :D
Helian 09-08-06, 02:57 PM	: Any way in the SRD under vampire it says you gain spawn through energy drain not through biting. Is Vampiric Dragon much different than vampire template save for the dragon part? I called you a compeitor because you are unlike Tomu and Watchdog (No offence) you still have a dragon left and in 2 weeks he will face off vs my dragon. I am preparing a debate for in 2 weeks it will be too late. But rember its all fun and games until Arc Flare loses a head :D First off, I read your "I prefer" comment as if you thought I was out already and I wasn't worthy of notice so to speak, I gather that wasn't your motive and if not, I appologize. Secondly, yes, the Vamp Dragon template is rather different, as it would have to be to include dragons. (as you pointed out humanoids and such) they are much stronger than just as if you dropped a vampire template on a dragon, which if it were that way, then yes you would be right that it would be less and less useful. I was angered at the competitor comment, but not at anything else you have said. I have always loved a quality debate. And Lastly, Korosagra is my entry as well:P Oh and the Arcflare loses a head thing, Thats some good s/-/it, give credit where credit is due (sorry Watchdog, it was funny)
TheyCallMeTomu 09-08-06, 04:53 PM	I'm not saying people try and figure out which dragon is tougher after evening CR. I'm saying if you want to ask about "Who would win in a reasonable fight using stats" that's what you really would have to do. But no one's doing that (except maybe me) so it's kind of irrelevant.
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-08-06, 09:52 PM	I called you a compeitor because you are unlike Tomu and Watchdog (No offence) you still have a dragon leftI am so offended. But really. Almost nothing annoys me more than when people state simple facts and other people get angry about it. I'm not offended. That would make me a hypocrite. Well, I kind of am, but not when it comes to that. But rember its all fun and games until Arc Flare loses a head :DThat's a lot less serious than someone losing an eye. You only have two eyes, but Arcflare has (not had, has) twelve heads, and probably some spell to restore them. About the whole "easy to get energy immunity" thing, though: isn't there some feat like Energy Substitution, only for breaths, in the Draconomicon?
Helian 09-09-06, 12:30 AM	As for your breath weapon and your draining touch both can be solved by a simple death ward just as Palshas can be solved by a few simple protect elements spells. If it means his life Palsha could always use limited wish to get a death ward on (lose xp or lose levels what a choice!) Vamp dragon is already immune to anything requiring a fortitude save (posion gas) and has resistance to cold 20, so on an unbuffed failed save vs cold breath, is 1/2 damage(improved evasion) -20. Not that it matters much, there are other spells, but, every spell you can cast I can try to remove it, or cast another spell and so on and so forth......another reason not to drag magic items into it to bog things down further.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-09-06, 10:28 AM	There are some SPELLS about that, but they only apply to one breath weapon (and it's a swift action so you can only cast it once per round). So Arcflare could substitute the energy damage of ONE of his breath weapons, but that means that he's no longer dealing that damage twelve times, but only once. Personally, I found those spells (especially breath weapon admixture) to be way too powerful. But I guess if you consider them kosher to DnD, and if you interpret it that Breath Weapon Admixture is just fine, Arcflare could have dealt 24 times his breath weapon damage, 1/2 fire and 1/2, say, acid. As if he wasn't rediculously overpowered as it was.
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-09-06, 12:03 PM	breath weapon admixture... You've got to be kidding me. That's insane.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-09-06, 12:22 PM	You're the one who decided to use a 12 headed nearing Great Wyrm Red Dragon, and you're calling a spell insane? XD Yah no, they're crazy.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-09-06, 05:53 PM	Someone needs to write a Wikipedia article about the Creature competitions, just so wikipedia can remove it for being irrelevant.
Balor von Balorvitch 09-11-06, 11:35 AM	You're the one who decided to use a 12 headed nearing Great Wyrm Red Dragon, and you're calling a spell insane? XD Yah no, they're crazy. Well multi headed dragons just seems powerful and appears in myths and Popular culture A Dragon that spits out a flaming acid...... I just lost 1d6 sanity :coolcthul Actually any acid is more insane than fire as sane people expect fire from dragons. I should have went with my gut and made my Insectiod, Vermin Lord 1/2 Yellow/ 1/2 Black Dragon. His breath Weapon is a Breath Weapon of deadly deadly bees! Now thats madness! Someone needs to write a Wikipedia article about the Creature competitions, just so wikipedia can remove it for being irrelevant. ?? I think every dragon left has more relevlance then any of the previous winners especally the Pally Bus! I normally don't say this but the Pally Bus stands for everything wrong with D&D! 1.The fact of making freak characters that are 1 in a billon 2. The Fact that only beutiful evil can be reformed no orc, no Cornugon a Succubus! 3. The fact that a demon can commit contless atrocities and become a paladin but if a paladin breaks bread with an orc he loses his class never to gain it back. 4. The Vrock mount is not only stronger, 5 steps higher on the Tanar'Ri rank, also a 1 in a trillon good demon but smarter as well. If things were set right the Vrock would be the Paladin and have the succubus as the bounded mount. (And for the censors i said Vrock mount before this just adds to the stupidness of the Pallybus!)
TheyCallMeTomu 09-11-06, 12:30 PM	Exactly, a wikipedia article filled with all of the nonsense about the competitions and how they related to Dungeons and Dragons. Maybe there'd be a debate to merge it in with the Dungeons and Dragons entry on wiki. I just want Chessmaster to live on in the mind of the internet, rather than being forgotten or, at best, remembered as "the first one to drop to that stupid samurai"
Balor von Balorvitch 09-11-06, 12:39 PM	........................... I just want Chessmaster to live on in the mind of the internet, rather than being forgotten or, at best, remembered as "the first one to drop to that stupid samurai" More like "The frist to fall to the greatest dragon who ever lived, or unlived"
TheyCallMeTomu 09-11-06, 01:01 PM	Oh, yeah, I'm TOTALLY sure Palsha will go down in History as THAT. Tch. My hope is that Foda'll Annihilate that biyatch!
Balor von Balorvitch 09-11-06, 02:35 PM	That's a lot less serious than someone losing an eye. You only have two eyes, but Arcflare has (not had, has) twelve heads, and probably some spell to restore them. Hmmmm i thought of giving Palsha a slashed out eye. It makes him seem hardcore, mortal, wise and it goes with the whole 'greatest dragon who ever lived' (cookie for the person to get that reference :ayyyy!: ) And if Palsha does win this competion who has the authority to say he isn't the greatest dragon who ever lived?
TheyCallMeTomu 09-11-06, 05:38 PM	The non-participants.
Balor von Balorvitch 09-11-06, 06:33 PM	And if Palsha does win this competion who has the authority to say he isn't the greatest dragon who ever lived? The non-participants. LOL they didn't apply for the job thus have no authority. There was hundreds of dragons summited by people who know more about D&D then anyone i know. They weeded them out now there is 4. The winner is basically the greatest dragon anyone thought of. After this competion is done it would be UBER cool if the dragon emperror... i mean the dragon winner took on the other 2 freaky fridays nothing would give me more pleasure then seeing Elu defeated!.
Helian 09-11-06, 09:31 PM	There was hundreds of dragons summited by people who know more about D&D then anyone i know. They weeded them out now there is 4. The winner is basically the greatest dragon anyone thought of. If greatest = most popular then I wholeheartedly agree. There were more powerful dragons than even Arcflare in my estimation, which validates my point that flare,style and story will always win these competitions. I for one chose a vampire dragons because I like them, but also I know tons of people love them too. As for Korosagra, again, people love eastern martial arts for its style, power and rich history. Now lets look at who is left... Caululithrax - Vamp, must be popular if people dress up and think they are one Palsha - Eastern martial arts Samurai Arilasadetonima - Good gone evil Dracolich Foda - everones favorite drunken eastern martial arts monk (and gold) Krystalwind - Red but not red dragon, well, I got nothing here...... Korosagra - Kensai / eastern martial arts monk I dunno, a bit of a co-incidence? nah. Wouldn't it be interesting if Caululithrax, Palsha, Foda and Korosagra made the final four? Thats my guess anyways.
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-11-06, 10:53 PM	Well multi headed dragons just seems powerful and appears in myths and Popular culturePoint out two examples. I've never heard of a multi-headed dragon other than Arcflare and the Chessmaster. And Balor, why do you dislike Eludecia? You say that she's a symbol of everything that's wrong with D&D, but those things would still be wrong with D&D aaregardless of her existence, so it's really more a reason to dislike D&D than the "Pallybus." There were more powerful dragons than even Arcflare in my estimation, which validates my point that flare,style and story will always win these competitions.Like Rahb'adubdub. And it's spelled "flair." :P
Helian 09-11-06, 11:12 PM	Like Rahb'adubdub. And it's spelled "flair." :P Exactly like Rahb'adubdub... And, I meant the spell, yeah yeah thats what i meant....the spell flare......... :embarrass
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-12-06, 12:00 AM	Yeah. Just having Flare in your spell list... Man, it makes you popular! The sheer flavor of Flare is mind-boggling!
RavinRay 09-12-06, 01:11 AM	Point out two examples. I've never heard of a multi-headed dragon other than Arcflare and the Chessmaster. Well, TSR saw it fit to star Venger's two-headed monstrosity Demodragon in "The Treasure of Tardos" episode of the cartoon way back, so that's a precedent of sorts.
Balor von Balorvitch 09-12-06, 08:25 AM	Point out two examples. I've never heard of a multi-headed dragon other than Arcflare and the Chessmaster. And Balor, why do you dislike Eludecia? You say that she's a symbol of everything that's wrong with D&D, but those things would still be wrong with D&D aaregardless of her existence, so it's really more a reason to dislike D&D than the "Pallybus." Ok as for your frist part I have 5 examples of multiheaded dragons King Ghidorah the godzilla villian Typhon:Greek myth, A multi headed dragon Balaur: a dragon in Romanian mythology, with three, seven or twelve heads Zmey Gorynych: a dragon in Slavic mythology Ladon : a hundred-headed dragon that guards the garden of the Hesperides So it is by far not the frist dragon with multiple heads As for the second point. I hate the pallybus because it makes no damn sense! None! She proves all the things wrong in D&D is my point and she has a Vrock mount to boot. I don't want to give in to D&D being mostly :drool: immature males but she begs the question. And it's spelled "flair." Then without further ado "Woooooooooooooooooooooooooo!" :D I knew Ric was good with ladies but damn a 12 headed Hydra! damn!
TheyCallMeTomu 09-12-06, 10:02 AM	There was a three headed dragon in King's Quest 3, there's a three headed dragon in many of the old Zelda games (and I think there was a two headed dragon somewhere), there's a seven headed Orochi (which is kind of like a sea serpent/dragon) somewhere in East Asian myth (Japanese or Chinese... I only know because they used it in Ranma 1/2) I mean to be fair, Arcflare wasn't just a dragon. He was a Dragon Hydra. You said in your original exposistion that that's what he was; a mad scientists fusion between a dragon and a hydra. Now, hydra's have been done before... and dragons have been done before... and fire breathing hydras have been done before... so what the heck makes Arcflare different? You slap the title dragon on it, a pair of wings, and some spellcasting, and suddenly you think it's unique? I'm afraid I don't follow. I never presumed that Chessmaster's two headed nature made him unique. It was there to represent the duality of his intellectual nature... something that didn't really go over that well.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-12-06, 10:25 AM	You know, I'd be interested in seeing actually how many people vote for any particular week. BTW: BIGGEST example of a multiheaded dragon? Ummmm... TIAMAT?!? I mean yah, she's really more along the lines of five dragons using the fusion power allong with a MANYschism... not unlike Chessmaster (but with three more heads and actions, and without the whole psionic thing going on), but still: multiheaded dragon. Do you not think Tiamat is overpowered?
Balor von Balorvitch 09-12-06, 04:54 PM	Foda wins the week! I voted aganist the Albino 'Red' (And i use the term loosely). I also voted for a monk show down next round! When the monks face off i bet on the drunken master cus he is just 'that damn good' and i find a land wyrm kensai with his speciality fists a bit confusing but he is certianly is better then a Whed Dragon! Oh and guess what a Albino red would look like. Its called pink!
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-12-06, 07:10 PM	Um... by "two examples," I meant "one more example than you gave." In my defence, I wasn't thinking of any of those when I decided to have a multi-headed red. Though Typhon is pretty dang cool. As for my vote, go Krystalwind! Balor, it's not pink. You don't add white to the thing's previous color; it just doesn't have any pigment in its skin, so it's white.
MindWandererB 09-12-06, 07:47 PM	Well, now that my entry has been eliminated, I'll spill the beans about where it came from. For those of you who complained that a silver dracolich was in the same "oxymoron" camp as the succubus paladin and the aescetic thief--you're exactly right. In fact, I was trying to poke fun at the whole ridiculousness. I nominated a gold vampire and a copper thief, as well. I nearly made a chaotic dragon monk and a lawful dragon barbarian, but I figured those would be too subtle for folks to be attracted to the concept. The other half of the concept was liberally borrowed from Anne Rice, with the vampire Maharet. ... So we could easily end up with 3 Oriental-themed dragons in the final 4, and possibly a monk-on-monk matchup in two weeks. Interesting, especially considering not a single Lung made it into the competition. I wonder if they'll make minis of any of these? A Foda or Palsha mini would be pretty darn cool. Although a Krystalwind mini would be lame (repaint, and confusing).
Helian 09-12-06, 08:10 PM	When the monks face off i bet on the drunken master cus he is just 'that damn good' and i find a land wyrm kensai with his speciality fists a bit confusing but he is certianly is better then a Whed Dragon! Oh and guess what a Albino red would look like. Its called pink! What do you find confusing if I may ask? And Watchdog is correct, Albino means the absence of all pigments. However, if the NHL and NFL can come out with pink jerseys for there female fans, who knows? Pink dragons for the ladies!
Helian 09-12-06, 09:31 PM	Upon reading krystalwinds (butchered i'm sure) story, I came to a conclusion. The concept however clever it may be, it would make a great enemy boss for a module, but has a fatal flaw. This competiton is dragon vs dragon, not bumbling adventures following rumours spread in taverns vs dragon. Krystalwind is a red dragon, thats it. No class levels, prestige classes, templates, nothing. Just a liquid papered red dragon. Red dragons look very different than whites and all other dragons for that matter. If the gods cursed a black dragon and colored him gold, would anyone be fooled? Size, shape, crests, horns differ from species to species. Now, dragons wouldn't be fooled, nor any character that survived to 10th lvl or higher either. The adventurers may be unprepared, but dragons cast spells spontaneously and could buff accordingly. Simply put, a great monster to add to a campaign. The more dilligent the characters are with info gathering the better they would fare when they meet in battle. Krystalwind, vs any of the remaining dragons, in my mind, would get beaten like a red-headed stepchild. Or did I mean white-headed?? But, I guess its the flavor, FLAIR, and style that gains votes. Only time will tell............
TheyCallMeTomu 09-13-06, 02:01 AM	[QUOTE=Watchdog_of_Hades]Um... by "two examples," I meant "one more example than you gave." QUOTE] Damn straight, but it would have been utterly redundant if I repeated everything that's already been said, by myself and others, in earlier posts. I'm sorry Watchdog, I just fail to see how you could think a multiheaded dragon is somehow unique or new. I'll admit, I used a 3 headed red dragon (young adult I believe) in a campaign as the superfamiliar of a Biomancer, but I didn't think it was unique persay, just a nifty encounter to define what happens when variant critters arise. I think a much more interesting hultiheaded dragon would be an Ettin/Dragon crossover, mostly because of the specific nature of ettins. Imagine a dragon that took the feats (I forget what they're called) from Draconomicon to make multiple attacks with natural weapons, essentially fighting with two weapons... and of course the dragon would have the intelligence of a mildly retarded chimpanzee... Edit: Oh yah. FODA WON! WOOOO! and by a pretty big margin too... and here I figured he woulda lost because I was backing him. Goes to show; if you try and use murphy's law to justify your own ends... that's when it stops working!
Balor von Balorvitch 09-13-06, 11:02 AM	What do you find confusing if I may ask? And Watchdog is correct, Albino means the absence of all pigments. However, if the NHL and NFL can come out with pink jerseys for there female fans, who knows? Pink dragons for the ladies! Well when i hear Kensei I think some sort of weapon, while studying it i found out it was his fists but still Kensei seems an odd choice why not contue being a monk? And the pink thing was just something i put in for a joke, i know that he would be white despite being red.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-13-06, 02:36 PM	The kensai class is actually designed specifically for monks and paladins. It's a really good class for monks because they can beef their fists (which is really difficult to do otherwise)... Power Surge and Withstand are both really good abilities.
Balor von Balorvitch 09-13-06, 03:28 PM	The kensai class is actually designed specifically for monks and paladins. It's a really good class for monks because they can beef their fists (which is really difficult to do otherwise)... Power Surge and Withstand are both really good abilities. Really?I never thought of Kensai for a monk. I guess since i played previous edtions of the class and the fact that every illustration has them with a sword. Also the Kensai translates to 'Sword Saint" IIRC (or i bought in to some japanese fiction like the ninjas)
Helian 09-13-06, 08:21 PM	Well, I wouldn't say they were specifically for monks and paladins. They, as well as the samurai can continue advancing in there classes, but fighters, and rogues or any other class that follows "orders" can also become Kensai. My old preception of Kensai was the same as Balor's, as the old Oriental Adventures manual had them as a sword only class, and Balor is also correct that it means "Sword Saint". I thought the 3.5 version of Kensai is a awsome concept, but I have to admit I prefer the old Sword Master Kensai of earlier D&D. The new kensai should have been called something different, and came up with a new Kensai presitge class honouring the old one, swords, no armor, +AC advancement etc.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-13-06, 11:25 PM	Well, I wouldn't say they were specifically for monks and paladins. They, as well as the samurai can continue advancing in there classes, but fighters, and rogues or any other class that follows "orders" can also become Kensai. My old preception of Kensai was the same as Balor's, as the old Oriental Adventures manual had them as a sword only class, and Balor is also correct that it means "Sword Saint". I thought the 3.5 version of Kensai is a awsome concept, but I have to admit I prefer the old Sword Master Kensai of earlier D&D. The new kensai should have been called something different, and came up with a new Kensai presitge class honouring the old one, swords, no armor, +AC advancement etc. Weapon master was kenSEI. KenSAI is TOTALLY different. The spirit of the sword lies within the fists. <Gong> Kensai is good for monks because they get concentration as a class skill, and concentration is crucial for the kensai. <Gong> WHO KEEPS HITTING THAT GAWDDAMNED GONG?!? ... <silence... then a gong>
Bard-of-all-trades 09-13-06, 11:54 PM	Upon reading krystalwinds (butchered i'm sure) story, I came to a conclusion. Thanks for that, but the description you see, is the description I wrote in its entirety. So pick a type of dragon, come up with one or two paragraphs describing that dragon, and don't forget to give your dragon a creative name. I followed the instructions for this competition and only wrote one paragraph, NOT a small novel, about my dragon. I thought I came up with something cool and story-worthy in that one paragraph. I figured it would solve a lot of problems when Krystalwind wins on how to put him into a module because the hook and plot is built-in to a nice, neat package. Like a friend of mine said, these uber-dragons with multiple templates and levels in multiple classes and prestige classes are cool yes, but they are like concept cars. They look cool, but they are completely unplayable in anything short of an Epic level campaign. Even the characters created on the Character Optimization board would get crushed by some of the dragons created for this competition. Krystalwind may just be a red dragon in white scales, but he can be scaled to meet the need of any, repeat any, campaign for playable characters. Thank you to everyone who votes for Krystalwind! :D
Balor von Balorvitch 09-14-06, 09:37 AM	Like a friend of mine said, these uber-dragons with multiple templates and levels in multiple classes and prestige classes are cool yes, but they are like concept cars. They look cool, but they are completely unplayable in anything short of an Epic level campaign. Even the characters created on the Character Optimization board would get crushed by some of the dragons created for this competition. Krystalwind may just be a red dragon in white scales, but he can be scaled to meet the need of any, repeat any, campaign for playable characters. Thank you to everyone who votes for Krystalwind! :D Hmmm i must disagree Palsha is a 'samurai' so one class level onto an adult silver dragon.Or just use a base dragon with no class levels and make him the samurai title turned emperror. The concept of a dragon ruling over a realm of men has been done but makes a hellva alot of sense as a dragons wisdom,intelligence and charisma are hard matched. Along with metallic dragons morals unquestionable. If Krystals hook was to succeed he must not use his breath weapon at all along with the fact that a red dragon prefers to live in hot places and White ones love the cold. If KW is commited to the act he could go to a temprate cave but would not go any colder thus PCs might start to wonder.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-14-06, 04:22 PM	Krystalwind could use the spells in the Draconomicon that allow energy substitution for one's breath weapon. I think Krystalwind would be excellent for "showing the potential of the game material." He'd be okay for a one shot adventure. I think Arcflare is probably the best for a borderline epic game... Arcflare's CR is thereabouts 18 for the weakest possible version (Young Adult). Though the dragon would obliterate an unprepared party easily, a group that planned properly with either Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit or the Ironskin spell, combined with proper usage of Energy Immunity spells (availible to a 14th level party) would be able to take him down, though it would certainly be a difficult fight. Arcflare would be a demonstration of raw power as opposed to tactical versatility. Chessmaster on the other hand normally requires epic level play... but not anymoreso than your standard Great Wyrms. Chessmaster simply ditches sorcerer powers for psionic powers, and the fusion effect (which is 9th level I think... maybe 8th) and Schism are permanent. Chessmaster is about as dangerous as a Great Wyrm black and a Great Wyrm White, so that's CR in the low 20s (maybe as high as 25): something for a 19th level or 20th level party (if they're well prepared). One of the things about dragons with class levels is that they just don't compare to like-HD dragons without class levels in terms of power, despite having a higher CR. If you're willing to fudge the technical CR a dragon should have, you can get a more playable dragon.
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-14-06, 06:59 PM	What's this Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit thing I keep hearing about? Some munchkiny combo, I'm guessing.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-14-06, 08:23 PM	Arcflare gets twelve attacks per round. Karmic Strike or Robilar's Gambit are ways of getting attacks of opportunity every time an opponent hits you successfully. If you have enough attacks of opportunity, you get one attack for each attack Arcflare has, in addition to getting your own array of attacks. In short, Arcflare's greatest offense becomes its greatest weakness (sort of). Karmic Strike can be found in Complete Warrior. Robilar's Gambit can be foun in Player's Handbook 2.
depressed_optimist 09-14-06, 10:32 PM	yes krystal wind is a nasty surprise, but korosagra just has that coolness factor. an NPC i would love to add into a game. personally i'm a bit upset gan the rusty got wiped out. yay for funny little pseudodragons
TheyCallMeTomu 09-14-06, 10:39 PM	Gan would have made a good non-enemy NPC, maybe part of an adventuring party or something.
depressed_optimist 09-14-06, 10:50 PM	Gan would have made a good non-enemy NPC, maybe part of an adventuring party or something. and i am a complete and utter sucker for those. wierd npcs are just fun. no my group does not take the game entirely seriously.
Ossian 09-15-06, 07:10 AM	Krystalwind is a grea Dragon concept. However, I just doubt that whatever he breaths Korosagra shall stay in trajectory and wait. The Albino red dragon is a surprise that works if he never leaves the lair, and only against humans... Still, size might make the difference (I guess Koros is a little bit smallar, compared to Krystal). O.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-15-06, 10:56 AM	Well it's quite evident that the contest isn't just about who can kick the stuffing out of who, else Palsha would have lost to Chessmaster or Arcflare... though I guess I did technically give some ways for how Palsha could beat Arcflare (Overpowered or not, the benefits of the multiheaded template are pretty damned circumstantual). Vote for your favorite concept. An albindo red is "nifty" but I don't really like it that much, so I voted for Kuro, but honestly this isn't one of the contests that I give lots of importance too. With any luck, Foda'll win the next round, and go on to the finals.
Balor von Balorvitch 09-15-06, 11:06 AM	Well it's quite evident that the contest isn't just about who can kick the stuffing out of who, else Palsha would have lost to Chessmaster or Arcflare... though I guess I did technically give some ways for how Palsha could beat Arcflare (Overpowered or not, the benefits of the multiheaded template are pretty damned circumstantual). Damn for all the flak Palsha gets you would swear Tomu and Watchdog took max ranks in Ride (My Ass)! :rofl: (Credit Rich Berlew :bow: ) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0347.html
Helian 09-15-06, 01:00 PM	Damn for all the flak Palsha gets you would swear Tomu and Watchdog took max ranks in Ride (My Ass)! :rofl: (Credit Rich Berlew :bow: ) http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0347.html LOL, yeah I read OOTS too, damn funny
Helian 09-15-06, 01:14 PM	Still, size might make the difference (I guess Koros is a little bit smallar, compared to Krystal). O. hmmm, I doubt that, as the mountian landwyrm is also colossal, and its discription states; even the eldest of red dragons knows better than to pick a fight with a Mountain Landwyrm, and is also discribed as one of the fiercest creatures to walk the planet. 700 hp (base) doesnt hurt either!
Balor von Balorvitch 09-15-06, 01:38 PM	hmmm, I doubt that, as the mountian landwyrm is also colossal, and its discription states; even the eldest of red dragons knows better than to pick a fight with a Mountain Landwyrm, and is also discribed as one of the fiercest creatures to walk the planet. 700 hp (base) doesnt hurt either! Yes and also Kensai surprizingly makes a better monk then Drunken master. You could eaily add keen onto collasal claws by Kensai 2!
Helian 09-15-06, 01:55 PM	I gave Korosagra +5 ghost touch fists of brilliant energy, I was thinking speed and something else, but I went with that. When I submitted my dragons, I went with whatever age group and added 20 levels. Korosagra was 10 monk 10 kensai. That is about what I thought most would do. I didn't think there would be as many "epic" (over 20 added lvl's) that there were.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-15-06, 06:19 PM	Hmmm... Foda's improvised weapons aren't that great now that I think about it. +1d12 damage kicks ass, but only if it increases in damage by him being much larger than usual, and it probably doesn't. If I were to vote based entirely on power, I'd vote for Kuro, but I prefer Foda. Anyway, if I recall, Landwyrms can't cast spells. Or fly. So if nothing else, Foda could fly and breath on him constantly (casting that energy substitution breath weapon spell)
Helian 09-15-06, 07:20 PM	Nah, they can't fly or cast spells, however, a monk with 46 strength can jump pretty high! But, Landwyrms have a breath weapon also. And, he wouldn't just stand there, if he butts up against a 50-60' wall, trees, mountain, cliff, whatever, the gold couldn't fly by and breathe. There fly mobility is poor at best up to mature, and clumsy any older than that. The spells are the most dangerous to Korosagra, but his saves are pretty rediculous when the 2 classes are added. And don't forget he has improved evasion.
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-15-06, 07:35 PM	Damn for all the flak Palsha gets you would swear Tomu and Watchdog took max ranks in Ride (My Ass)!Oh, really? Quote two posts of mine where I seriously bashed Palsha.
Balor von Balorvitch 09-16-06, 01:08 PM	Oh, really? Quote two posts of mine where I seriously bashed Palsha. LOL wo there dude, it is a joke from Order of the Stick and should not be taken seriously, but since you asked... It's true that Palsha might survive. After much calculation, I find that the likelyhood of his surviving is only 8 standard deviations away from the mean. That means that he will live about 1/6000000000000000 of of the time. That's 1/(6*(10^16)) of the time. And Palsha's just a silver skinned lizardlike firebreathing monster. Those have been around for longer. No contest! Only two or three people seem to be staunchly defending Palsha. The majority clearly support Arcflare. You can bet your sweet bippie that the only vote you get will be 100% wasted if you vote against the awesome might of the red leviathan. Vote for Palsha! Since people seem to like the Chessmaster more, then if Palsha wins, Arcflare will have an easier time crushing the second round of competition - not that there's any doubt of him winning, just that I don't want him to be tired when he's in the third round. LOL you could find the same amount of insults from my side, thats the nature of this game player....more like ex-player :evillaugh but seriously no flame wars :noway:
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-16-06, 02:10 PM	It's still annoying to be lied about, regardless of humor. And all but the second quote there are either joking (who even uses the term "bippie" anymore?) or simple fact.
Helian 09-16-06, 04:07 PM	I'd have to say that none of those quotes "seriously bash" palsha as asked. But, it is kinda the game pointing out and debating things as well. As long as its not insulting the creator outright, it doesn't really matter, most voters wont read this forum anyways.
Bard-of-all-trades 09-16-06, 10:00 PM	who even uses the term "bippie" anymore? I do.:allalone:
Balor von Balorvitch 09-19-06, 09:03 AM	Helian any last words before Draco-pire faces off aganist the the the Paltinum Emperror? My line, perhaps you have heard it is... Palsha Prevails! and Watchdog: sorry if you were offended i meant no disrespect.
Helian 09-19-06, 09:41 AM	Helian any last words before Draco-pire faces off aganist the the the Paltinum Emperror? Good night.
Helian 09-19-06, 09:42 AM	On a more pressing outcome, I am anxiously awaiting the results of my other entries fate. It is the 19th isn't it?
Balor von Balorvitch 09-19-06, 10:21 AM	On a more pressing outcome, I am anxiously awaiting the results of my other entries fate. It is the 19th isn't it? yes it is :( And i look forward to the fray! ;)
TheyCallMeTomu 09-19-06, 02:00 PM	I'm not sure which way to vote on the Vamp. V. Samurai issue... I'm not really that impressed either way. I'll probably remain neutral in this fight. I'm tempted to vote for the Vamp simply because having an all oriental final showdown (when not a single lung dragon made the cut) just seems weird...
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-19-06, 06:25 PM	I've decided that if I ever submit anything for a vote again, I'm going to make it a double-katana-wielding chaotic good dark elf samurai yearning to throw off the reputation of his evil kin, with a Wish to give him fast healing, just like Wolverine. I'm not calling you a fanboy, Balor, but it seems that about 1/3 of the boards seems to worship katanas, and katanas are linked to samurai...
TheyCallMeTomu 09-19-06, 07:13 PM	Dude: Iaijutsu Dragon. Awesome. Seriously, if Palsha was an Iai Master, I would have voted for him a lot more. Is it stupid for a creature that big to be an Iai Master? I don't think so. But MAYBE IT IS!!! Oh, I voted for the Vamp BTW
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-19-06, 07:24 PM	Good choice.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-19-06, 09:05 PM	Honestly, I'm unimpressed with both contestants. Palsha woulda been way more awesome with Iaijutsu... Awwww yeah Iai. Imagine breaking out a really really really big sword from the sheath, swinging it, and returning it in a single strike. You could take out a mountain like that!!! Unfortunately, Palsha is no Iai Master... I should have submitted an Iai master lung dragon... that woulda been cool.
Aurotuli 09-20-06, 12:03 AM	This was a difficult choice, but I eventually went with Palsha. Both Arcflare and Caululithrax are dangerous and more than worthy opponents, and while I wonder whether - in single combat - he truly could win against either, I have chosen to side with the hero in both instances. If Palsha wins, I will look forward to his next encounter - voting for him if the Kensai wins against the Sloppy, and voting against him if the Sloppy defeats the Kensai. If Palsha loses, then I sincerely hope Foda wins the next round, as I would find the final match that much more amusing.
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-20-06, 01:13 AM	The hero? Since when is Palsha a hero? It's just as likely that he's going to stomp in just as Caululithrax is sitting down to dinner and start spewing Lawful Good dogma around while hacking at the innocent vampire with his katana as the instance that Caululithrax starts running around Palsha's empire to get enough food to live in time of famine. How does killing someone for no reason but that you don't agree with their views make you a hero?
TheyCallMeTomu 09-20-06, 11:34 AM	A.) That's about verbatim the GREEK definition of a hero. B.) He's a Samurai, so he has to be a hero to his people. C.) C'mon... "innocent vampiric dragon." If Caully really was a grand ol' nice guy, you might have some point, but I don't recall anyone explicitly stating that, and evidence shows that he's not. The bottom line is that Caully NEEDS to subsist on the blood of other dragons, and is a very real potential threat to Palsha's life. In fact, why would anyone assume that Palsha's the one going after Caully? Watchdog, I know you're upset over Arcflare's defeat, but you have to remain objective: creating mindless arguements against Palsha isn't going to convince anyone not to vote for him (though creating NON-mindless arguements probably isn't anyway). D.) The "Heroes" of many DnD campaigns do the exact same thing: they wander into the dragon's lair, slay it and all of its evil minions, and collect the resources to use for their and/or public benefit. The concept of Hero in DnD ALSO supports the idea. Incidentally, I generally prefer evil (or neutral) dragons, so if it weren't for the fact that Foda is just so awesomze, I'd be disappointed that Caully is the only evil dragon in the top four...
aelryinth 09-20-06, 12:03 PM	The Mountain Landwyrm shall win because the terms of his victory in the philosophical debate with Rampart, the mighty Bronze shall aid him against his opponents!@ :) ===Aelryinth
MDFFourOfFive 09-20-06, 02:16 PM	I voted for Gan also
MDFFourOfFive 09-20-06, 02:19 PM	We must assimilate Caululithrax and Korosagra! They shall not win. Palash or Foda MUST WIN!!! :invasion:
Balor von Balorvitch 09-20-06, 03:12 PM	Dude: Iaijutsu Dragon. Awesome. Seriously, if Palsha was an Iai Master, I would have voted for him a lot more. Is it stupid for a creature that big to be an Iai Master? I don't think so. But MAYBE IT IS!!! Oh, I voted for the Vamp BTW Samurai gets Iaijutsu duel as a class skill just as the PrC.:confused: I looked over that particular PrC and it really serves no tatical end save for doing 2 attacks with 1 standard action. Also the samurai class gets bonus feats similar to a fighter and 4 skills a level. Also it is Imposible to ID a dragon,ogre, troll, monk, 90% of the known world you must strike an unarmed opponet in an opening round so basically it is a useless skill for Palsha a really wasted PrC. On to the Lung Dragon debate that keeps poping up. A Silver Dragon seems more adept to rule over what ever he wills and i don't like the whole Celestal Burecarcy that the Lungs have. Add that to the fact that one Lung is a giant manticore, one a dragon turtle, one a dragon tadpole, one looks like wyrm from MTG, one is a snake dragon, and one is a courier dragon we come down to the only one that suits a samurai the ,Ti'ien Lung (aka the 2nd Gold Dragon ;) ) I didn't like the whole Celestal Burecarcy or the LN alignment so i went with the classic sliver that is indpendant, wise, LG and suits the title platinum emperor more then if he was gold. Also why can't a sliver dragon be in the same area as quasi japanesc people? I don't go saying "Hey White Dragons and Black Dragons are not in the same setting as psionics you must use a gem dragon" or make any comments on anybody else concept. Why is so important that all dragon samurais are Lung Dragons?:confused: Palsha Prevails like always :D Oh and Helian congrats on having 2 in the top 4! I hope the Draco-Pire filled up on Sliversheen and Gan because he is going to need all that blood after Palsha uber anime slice him making a fountain of blood, then do some sort of spirt bomb of fanboyism :rofl: LOL may the best dragon win!
TheyCallMeTomu 09-20-06, 06:05 PM	Ummm.... hellOOOOooo... Strike from the void? SHEESH! You wanna hear how Palsha could ANNIHILATE Arcflare? If he had 10 Iaijutsu Master levels, and max ranks in Iaijutsu Focus, and the Epic Iaijutsu Focus feat, he could routinely deal +15ish d6 damage... and apply his charisma modifier on each die roll. And what non-physical stat do Dragons have in droves? Charisma is one of em, that's for sure. That's at least 15d6+75 damage on an automatic surprise round attack, which should be enough to take out one of Arcflare's heads... do it twice in the surprise round he gets, and then next round do it twice more (assuming he wins initiative which he probably would have) by drawing another weapon: Dual weapon fighting iai master is the strongest. However, it's all very twinky. But... umm... so what? Isn't a 12 headed dragon? I personally just like the appeal of Iaijutsu; it's my favorite Asian aspect... but Palsha isn't listed as being an Iai Master or using Iai at all (and Iai wasn't converted to 3.5 anyway) so the sensation is lost.
thepsionicbard 09-21-06, 07:54 AM	samurai trumps vamp but just barely. i see this as a fight to the finish whith bolth getting mortal wounds
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-21-06, 06:20 PM	If they both get mortal wounds, nobody wins. You could just as easily say that the vampire trumps the samurai.
Helian 09-21-06, 07:41 PM	Oh and Helian congrats on having 2 in the top 4! Thanks for that, and good luck to all the rest of the way.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-21-06, 08:28 PM	I'm ensaddened that only Chessmaster of my entries was put into the nomination process... oh well, I guess Kain s00ked anyway. FEAR THE BLOOD DRAGON!
Balor von Balorvitch 09-21-06, 11:00 PM	Ummm.... hellOOOOooo... Strike from the void? SHEESH! You wanna hear how Palsha could ANNIHILATE Arcflare? Hmmmm IF still requires that the opponet be un armed and any monster with a natural attack is still armed so basically it is very powerful but you can't pull it off. @Helian:I was looking up Life Drinker class in the BoVD today and a noticed that it requires you to be a 'vampire' and since Cal is a 'Vampiric Dragon' does he even qualify for this PrC? I know it may be nitpicking but using 10 blood points to maxmize/ empower a level draining breath weapon seems to lend creedence to the fact that it is indeed meant for vampires not vampirics. On that note doesn't the LifeDrinker blood point system remind you of Vampire the FRPG? I wonder if thats on purpose.
Helian 09-21-06, 11:18 PM	@Helian:I was looking up Life Drinker class in the BoVD today and a noticed that it requires you to be a 'vampire' and since Cal is a 'Vampiric Dragon' does he even qualify for this PrC? Well, first off, it doesnt say it cant, but, a better argument might be.... Vampiric what, humans? Vamp halflings? does it say vampire dwarves only? no it just says vampires. "Vamp dragon" is a template for, well, dragons, because, as you said in a much earlier post that adding the vampire affliction to a dragon is actually limiting it (im paraphrasing of course) So, i'd say it totally qualifies for the PrC.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-22-06, 02:09 AM	Hmmmm IF still requires that the opponet be un armed and any monster with a natural attack is still armed so basically it is very powerful but you can't pull it off. . Where do you keep getting this "they have to be unarmed" idea from? The only restriction is that you have to attack a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing a melee weapon. Strike with No Thought can be used as long as he starts combat within Melee Range; if he won initiatie, and Arcflare remained flat-footed, he could then spend a full round action (or rather, a move-action to resheath his blade, and another standard action to attack again) for a total of two Iaijutsu Strikes. Considering his high charisma and the lightnign blade ability, Palsha should easily be able to get initiative so this isn't exactly an unreasonable method. And, of course, Palsha gets an additional attack on each of those standard actions, though the rules are a bit fuzzy on whether those also count for Iaijutsu strikes. If they did, that'd be a total of four Iaijutsu strikes (which would certainly cut Arcflare down to size). Like I said, if Palsha WAS an Iaijutsu Master, I would have voted for him. But he's not.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-22-06, 02:13 AM	As for the Lifedrinker debate, think of it like this: The PrC requires you to "be a vampire." In general terms, this means you must have the vampire template. However, certain creatures can't have the vampire template, but can still be vampires (as in Vampiric Dragons); the variant template serves to explain how vampire applies when dealing with dragons. The same sort of logic works for the Alhoon, or lich illithid; a different template, but essentially the same result. I'd make the ruling that a Vampiric Dragon could be a Lifedrinker, but probably not a Vampiric Illithid (because they're not based on a template). In short, Vampiric Dragon Lifedrinker is exactly as kosher as an Alhoon Demilich. Comments?
Balor von Balorvitch 09-22-06, 08:53 AM	Where do you keep getting this "they have to be unarmed" idea from? The only restriction is that you have to attack a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing a melee weapon. Strike with No Thought can be used as long as he starts combat within Melee Range; if he won initiatie, and Arcflare remained flat-footed, he could then spend a full round action (or rather, a move-action to resheath his blade, and another standard action to attack again) for a total of two Iaijutsu Strikes. Considering his high charisma and the lightnign blade ability, Palsha should easily be able to get initiative so this isn't exactly an unreasonable method. :surrender Hmmm i looked up the ID last night and you are correct about the whole needed to be unarmed thing that is the way one of my DMs played and I thought it was RAW (Not the frist time said DM made me look like an a$$ :doh:) I Master might have been an uber class and such with cha bonus on each die and all those things i overlooked but the samurai class seems to be serving me welll and i would assume that an I Master would prob not make it past round 1 vs all the other sliver dragons. It seems that the class samurai invokes more in the reader then a I Master because i can pronance Samurai but can't even spell correctly Iaijutsu master. Well, first off, it doesnt say it cant, but, a better argument might be.... Vampiric what, humans? Vamp halflings? does it say vampire dwarves only? no it just says vampires. "Vamp dragon" is a template for, well, dragons, because, as you said in a much earlier post that adding the vampire affliction to a dragon is actually limiting it (im paraphrasing of course) So, i'd say it totally qualifies for the PrC. It means vampire template which applies to halflings,dwarves,humans, humanoid etc. RAW I believe I am correct it says 'Vampire' as a preq and unless Vampiric Dragons count as vampires then they are illegalable. Humanoids are not elgable for dragon PrC and thus Vampiric Dragons are not for a Humaniod PrC. Thats on paper, usually PRC get around this by saying "Must be able to Blood Drain" but it says vampire as the template. Rules as Intentended, somethings must be taken with a grain of salt and seen as they were intended, but looking at the LifeDrinker it seems to be over powerful class for a dragon to have and illogical at times. A.At max level you can have only 20 blood points even though you are a big dragon B. The using blood points to meta magic your ablties gets abused when used for other ablties other then vampire ones. A maxmized/ empowered children of the night is alot more balanced then a maxmized/ empowered level draining breath weapon. c. You brought up the fact that Vampiric Dragon has different ablties (Immune to sunligfht, garlic, etc) thus i believe it is as different from a vampire as a human is from a Dragon. Again RAW written I am correct, the template is 'Vampiric Dragon' not 'Vampire' the only thing common is they both have similar ablties but the fact remains one is a huamnoid and one is a dragon. One is a Vampire the other is Vampiric. and i think This PrC is too powerful for a vampiric dragon
TheyCallMeTomu 09-22-06, 01:34 PM	Did you just ignore my post? Seriously, the issue is that "what constitutes a vampire." It doesn't say "You must have the vampire template" or "the word Vampire in your name." It says you must be a vampire. Does taking the Vampiric Template make you a vampire? Does being a Vampiric Illithid make you a vampire? The rules are NOT clear on this, so you're making an assumption, which means there is no RAW... wait, am I using that term right?
Helian 09-22-06, 02:59 PM	Tomu, its ok bro. Balor is just getting nervous and grasping at straws:D But seriously, if its called vampire, drinks blood, needs blood, drains levels, drains CON, can turn gaseous, have vampire spawn, and all the other goodies humanoids with the vampirism affliction, then id say it was a vampire. The whole human, halfling, dwarf thing was to prove the point it doesn't matter what race the template is affixed to. Nuff said.
Helian 09-22-06, 04:54 PM	: A.At max level you can have only 20 blood points even though you are a big dragon B. The using blood points to meta magic your ablties gets abused when used for other ablties other then vampire ones. A maxmized/ empowered children of the night is alot more balanced then a maxmized/ empowered level draining breath weapon. c. You brought up the fact that Vampiric Dragon has different ablties (Immune to sunligfht, garlic, etc) thus i believe it is as different from a vampire as a human is from a Dragon. i think This PrC is too powerful for a vampiric dragon Well, here is some clarification... A. its 3 Lifewell pointsper lifedriker level so, 30 pts B. no where does it say you can maximize breath weapons persay, but thanks for pointing me to where it says a "seahag vampire" and that "other types of vampires may have additional special abilities that they could use" C. vamp dragon doesnt have the immunity to garlic, sun, etc, its the lifedrinker PrC's lifewell ability that grants it. And lastly, yes Caululithrax is way too powerful for Palsha to handle, so I can see why you think a Lifedrinker Vampiric Dragon is too much:D
TheyCallMeTomu 09-22-06, 06:30 PM	Being undead, a vampiric dragon LOSES HP if it's base form had a constitution of 20 or higher. This being said, if Palsha were, say, an Iaijutsu Master and got a couple of Iai Strikes in, he could easily take out the entirety of Caul's low HP down... a shame that he ISN'T an Iaijutsu Master, and deserves to lose!!!
Helian 09-22-06, 06:48 PM	Yeah, he loses his CON bonus to HP, but gains 4 hp per HD. Its obviously less, but when combined with all the vamp advantages its worth it. Now add the Lifedrinker PrC, that basicly eliminates a vampires weakness's, combined with all the shadow plane stuff the shadow dragon has, and it is a really, really powerful build. Also, can someone tell me what book dragon sized Katana's are in?????
TheyCallMeTomu 09-22-06, 10:15 PM	Actually, it wouldn't have to be dragonsized. Palsha's high charisma modifier and base attack would allow him to fight polymorphed into a human. But anyway, a weapon can be sized appropriatley for any size category. The POINT is that due to Palsha's huge boosts to Initiative were he an Iaijutsu Master (+4 improved Initiative, + charisma, +dex) he'd likely get initiative. And if he begun combat in melee reach, he'd get his own surprise round. But I guess as a shadow dragon, Caul might be able to get the jump on him, so it's sort of 50 50. My point is that, with high HD he has high skill ranks, and high charisma, so he'd hit HARD. And a creature without a huge arsenal of HP simply can't stand to be hit that hard twice.
Helian 09-22-06, 11:28 PM	Caululithrax has +9 to initiative in the build I gave him, as well as 452 hp (average) not great, but with damage reduction and fast healing 10, its pretty good. +4 improved init (vamp dragon given) +2 quick reconnoiter, +3 dex (vamp given +6 to dex) most dragons have 0 to dex bonus after adult i believe, but honestly, there is no point in arguing a class that Palsha isnt.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-23-06, 02:03 PM	Sure there is =D So in short, it WOULD be 50/50, as Palsha ALSO would have a +9 initiative modifier (assuming he didn't have any other Initiative modifiers, which an Iaijutsu Master should, but I digress). But whatever: Palsha ISN'T an Iai Master, so I voted against him. Iai Master would have done well for him also from an AC standpoint, though I guess Palsha coulda just put on some armor (though with Bracers of armor, his AC would be even more rediculously high!!!) But Balor most foolishly failed to make Palsha an Iai Master... well, it'll only be foolish if he loses to the Vamp. Which preferably he will, and then Foda'll clean up in the final round. Sorry, I just like the Drunkard =/ Oh wait, Foda still has to fight Kuro.
Balor von Balorvitch 09-23-06, 04:05 PM	Sure there is =D So in short, it WOULD be 50/50, as Palsha ALSO would have a +9 initiative modifier (assuming he didn't have any other Initiative modifiers, which an Iaijutsu Master should, but I digress). But whatever: Palsha ISN'T an Iai Master, so I voted against him. Iai Master would have done well for him also from an AC standpoint, though I guess Palsha coulda just put on some armor (though with Bracers of armor, his AC would be even more rediculously high!!!) But Balor most foolishly failed to make Palsha an Iai Master... well, it'll only be foolish if he loses to the Vamp. Which preferably he will, and then Foda'll clean up in the final round. Sorry, I just like the Drunkard =/ Dude calm down, my dragons not an I Master nor is he a Drunken Master he is a samurai. Maybe not super uber character but seemed like a good idea at the time. I don't mind other peoples opinons but don't treat Palsha like i made a mistake in making him, he is a samurai and he is more popular then Chess Master. If i made him an Ijitsu master then who is to say he would get this far he might have gone down with the other ubers like Chessmaster and Arc Flare. I stick my my aurgument that a vampiric dragon is not a vampire in a sense but i think it best if we agree to disagree on that point and get to the tea and crumpets.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 09-23-06, 06:40 PM	First, I am really happy that Korosagra made it. Recently this landwyrm monk has inspired me. I hope to now play a monk PC who studied in Korosagra's school. For this latest one, I'm torn. I think in the end I'll support Palsha. He took out Arcflare, who beat Grizzit'nikiliv, Harenspar, and Vriklastremos. The reds had so many good ones. And Caululithrax beat Gan the Rusty. May Palsha beat Caululithrax, and may Korosagra beat Foda and Palsha. If only Thalaraak had beat Palsha in the preliminaries . . . Go Korosagra!
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-23-06, 07:22 PM	I don't follow your logic. Why is it that Palsha should win?
TheyCallMeTomu 09-24-06, 12:48 AM	Logic? Who uses logic anymore? And dude, I never said that Palsha wasn't popular. Chessmaster was HORRIBLY unpopular! I take pride in being like Xenosaga; a cult following, and hated by everyone else. Bwaa haa haa! And I just like Iaijutsu Masters, and I'm just playing with you: don't take it so seriously. Regardless, I'll be sorely disappointed if Foda doesn't win. The other dragons just don't feel like they have much personality to me... But that's probably just my luv of anime. That being said, Palsha doesn't incite that "Hey, he's like an anime character!" sense in me, which is part of why I don't like him as a character (and specifically as a samurai). Well, we're nearing the finals, so I guess we'll finally be done with things soon. Maybe next year will be fiends or something. After all, Fiendish Codex 1 came out earlier, and Fiendish Codex 2 is scheduled to be out soon. No, no... that doesn't follow, they want stuff to be released next year. Anyone have any ideas? ... year of the aberrations? Or maybe there will be no theme... I'm not entirely sure the Dragon Themed competition was a good idea (nor am I sure whether or not the "have the population of the boards create dragons" was a good idea. But who knows. Admittedly, if they do the same thing for next competition, I'm definitely going to submit a series of entries that's for sure... though I wouldn't be surprised if the moderates attitudes towards me would make my entries no longer considered appropriate. Heh.) There are those who are cynical and say that "the masses are stupid." I'm cynical of those people, believing that that sentiment is just a way of feeling self-superior for being rejected. I am, of course, one of those people ;D In memory of Chessmaster, may you fare better in other circumstances...
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 09-24-06, 10:52 AM	I don't follow your logic. Why is it that Palsha should win? Because Caululithrax beat out some of my favorite entries. And Palsha beat entries that beat some of my other favorite entries. I want Palsha to win for vengeance. He's already been doing that for me. But in the very end, I say: GO KOROSAGRA! Show them the kind of sensai you are! Foda? Bah! He is a master of one style. Korosagra is the inventor of a style. And tradition holds you must be the master of two styles to be worthy of a school of your own style. Korosagra! Korosagra! Korosagra!
Helian 09-24-06, 11:05 AM	But in the very end, I say: GO KOROSAGRA! Show them the kind of sensai you are! Foda? Bah! He is a master of one style. Korosagra is the inventor of a style. And tradition holds you must be the master of two styles to be worthy of a school of your own style. Korosagra! Korosagra! Korosagra! You are my new best friend!;) Sorry Davies......yer out:D
TheyCallMeTomu 09-24-06, 02:20 PM	Tch. Kuro's style is boring. He can't fly! Or drink oceans worth of alcohol. I still say Foda just has more personality. Imagine Foda going up to get the first place trophy, and tripping over his own tail to knock out second and third place "accidentally" BWAA HAA HAA HAA HAA!!!
olostar 09-24-06, 04:29 PM	Or drink oceans worth of alcohol. I still say Foda just has more personality. Imagine Foda going up to get the first place trophy, and tripping over his own tail to knock out second and third place "accidentally" That's just it though, everytime I say Foda I think Yoda and I see a dragon wavering back and forth with a brown bag in his hand saying stuff like,"your castle, raze I must," and "breathe on your village I will, though blow over I might"...I'm trapped in a mental comparison between the original drunken master (Jackie Chan) and Yoda = Really Bad Grammar
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-24-06, 05:47 PM	Heh heh. Yeah, you're right. That's why Caululithrax has to win.
Helian 09-24-06, 07:15 PM	That's just it though, everytime I say Foda I think Yoda and I see a dragon wavering back and forth with a brown bag in his hand saying stuff like,"your castle, raze I must," and "breathe on your village I will, though blow over I might"...I'm trapped in a mental comparison between the original drunken master (Jackie Chan) and Yoda = Really Bad Grammar Hahahahaha, man, that is funny.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-24-06, 09:29 PM	At this point, I wouldn't be HORRIBLY upset with anyone in the top four (Except Palsha, who must die!) Go go vamp man kickassu, taisetsumono PROTECT MY BALLS! BTW: Foda's a gold dragon. He doesn't raze castles and breath fire on villiages. He's a good guy!
Helian 09-24-06, 10:12 PM	BTW: Foda's a gold dragon. He doesn't raze castles and breath fire on villiages. He's a good guy! LOL, I guess that depends on how drunk he gets.......... Foda always seemed like a bad choice for a drunken master, Chaotic Good dragon maybe, but a lawful good drunkard??? doubtful.
Balor von Balorvitch 09-25-06, 09:31 AM	LOL, I guess that depends on how drunk he gets.......... Foda always seemed like a bad choice for a drunken master, Chaotic Good dragon maybe, but a lawful good drunkard??? doubtful. But he could down 8 dragon pinsts to gain 16 str thus making him uber strong but he will have 1 int/wis but keeps the same cha aganist the land wyrm he could just fight for a while then fly off to cloud to get uber wasted again until he is at full hp again then repeat and he would win eventually..... Also he prob has max rank in profesion (brewer) or use his weaking gases to raid taverns and wine cellars ranking up thousands of tabs that he forgets about when comes to. Anyways it would be intresting if the final round was the 'life drinker' vs the drinker :D but that is unlikely as one of them has a date with Lord of Silver! Regardless, I'll be sorely disappointed if Foda doesn't win. The other dragons just don't feel like they have much personality to me... But that's probably just my luv of anime. That being said, Palsha doesn't incite that "Hey, he's like an anime character!" sense in me, which is part of why I don't like him as a character (and specifically as a samurai). Hmmm the reason you don't like him is the reason i do, He is not an anime character. I like my samurai to be a partial relfection of an actual samurai with dutys, honor and non of the sillyness of most animes. I also am a big fan of the Romance of the 3 Kingdoms that while is Chinese I think gives a nice base to a Warrior Emperor and that role could not be filled by an Ijitsu master nor a lung dragon. So basically i created a Lu Bei esc Sliver dragon and added the closest class that would apply aka the Samurai, a warrior that fights with honor, courage, skill points to lead and a class that brings to mind the tenets just by reading it "Samurai".
TheyCallMeTomu 09-25-06, 11:06 AM	Tch. I somehow doubt you can even recall the seven virtues of Bushido. BEGONE WITH YOU! Tch I say! TCH!!!!11111
Ossian 09-25-06, 11:33 AM	That`s Korosagra Vs Foda. Martial Arts tag match without weight limits. That will select the best dragon martial artist from the goodies. This is why it is Calululithrax that has to have the upper hand on Palsha. We need a bad guy for the final! Ossian
Helian 09-25-06, 06:15 PM	Anyways it would be intresting if the final round was the 'life drinker' vs the drinker :D Hmmm, I guess with no CON, Caululithrax wont have to worry about getting drunk on Foda's blood..........yeah I said Foda!:D
TheyCallMeTomu 09-25-06, 09:02 PM	Foda likely has Sunburst. BWAA HAA HAA!!!
Helian 09-25-06, 09:27 PM	Tomu, do i seriously have to go through this again.... Lifedrinker special ability, immune to sunlight and other vampire weaknesses. Rediculous reflex save of +40 with his build anyways, so it would be great for him to waste a round trying it.
Vonril 09-26-06, 04:08 PM	I'm totally going behind Kurosaga. The concept of a colossal-sized Landwyrm arduously practicing combat techniques against a mountain peak is too beautiful. XD Seriously, a Mountain Landwyrm is a particularly good choice out of the landwyrms for the monk discipline, as according to Dragonomicon they are usually Lawful Evil (is Kurosaga evil? o.o). The winner of these things gets to be in an online adventure (which one is the Succubus Paladin in, anywho?), and from that standpoint, Kurosaga would make both a unique piece of fluff for an adventure or an insane opponent for epic characters.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-26-06, 04:20 PM	A.) OUCH! Palsha didn't just bite the dust, he DEVOURED it. YEESH! B.) I'm pretty sure that nowhere did they say that the winner was going to be in an online adventure. Anywhere. That was for the first one, but I don't recall anyone saying officially anywhere that that applies here. Anyway, the finals are fine by me no matter how it turns out (though it's a bit upsetting if Helian has both of his entries in the finals)
TheyCallMeTomu 09-26-06, 04:20 PM	A.) OUCH! Palsha didn't just bite the dust, he DEVOURED it. YEESH! B.) I'm pretty sure that nowhere did they say that the winner was going to be in an online adventure. Anywhere. That was for the first one, but I don't recall anyone saying officially anywhere that that applies here. Anyway, the finals are fine by me no matter how it turns out (though it's a bit upsetting if Helian has both of his entries in the finals)
Helian 09-26-06, 05:41 PM	Slurp....slurp.....slurp.....slurp.....s lurp..... Wow, what a whooping, I almost want a recount.....sheesh.
FriendlyBiscuit 09-26-06, 08:00 PM	All of this is apparently rather moot. One can vote multiple times. I accidentally voted twice, and it accepted both votes. So I voted some more. And some more. I think I voted 30 times for Palsha, and still Caluulilrax won. I wouldn't be surprised if the winner of this competition is merely the guy who puts the time into voting the most often. 'Course, I may have this special power only because I'm on a mac, but I doubt it. I don't think I'll be voting anymore regardless; if I'm capable of it, then someone else is too, and he's probably responsible for most of the landslides.
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-26-06, 08:26 PM	Now that you've pointed it out, they'll probably fix it. Also, I'm pretty sure that I've voted twice (Accidentally. Really.), and I'm on a Mac, and it didn't work the second time. P.S.: REVENGE!
TheyCallMeTomu 09-26-06, 08:49 PM	I've been voting multiple times (albiet not all at once) for the entire competition. The entire thing is crap! It's horribly administered, theres RAMPANT technological problems, and... eh. Well, my hope is Foda v. Cauly. At this point, I mostly just don't want Kuro to win.
Quicksilver 09-26-06, 09:15 PM	:w00t: Congratulations to Helian - the better dragon won. I'm going to be voting for Caululithrax to the end, even if he faces Korosagra. Bad guys never win these things, but they're always the coolest opponents.:evillaugh To Palsha - take that you inscrutable lizard! I hope you enjoy your empire's month of mourning.:D To Balor - Don't take the margin too badly. There is multiple voting and more people are probably voting since we're coming to the end of the competition.
Helian 09-26-06, 09:23 PM	Hmmm, I am on a PC and it always says "you have already voted." I just tried with Korosagra. If Mac guys can do it more than once, than all this is really shallowing. I have been pretty pumped up for this competition, and if this is true, it really sucks a$$. I am kinda ****** now. And furthermore, it taints the other previous competitions as well if there is any truth to it. Are there any PC owners out there that can vote more than once? Or, can all you Mac ppl do it?
Helian 09-26-06, 09:29 PM	Congratulations to Helian - the better dragon won. I'm going to be voting for Caululithrax to the end, even if he faces Korosagra. Bad guys never win these things, but they're always the coolest opponents.:evillaugh In light of the recent events, I am pondering the idea of asking the moderators to pull Korosagra from the competition. I have been asked by 4-5 ppl for stats/info on him though, and I have also got alot of PM's favorably commenting on him, more than Caululithrax though. So I dunno, I'd feel like an ass now if he happened to make it through. Crap, now I am really P.Oed.....
Nathan_Lazaret 09-27-06, 06:38 AM	Congrats Helian. FYI I'm on a pc and I can only vote once if it makes any differnce. Oh and screw the Vamp. It's Kurosaga ftw.
Nathan_Lazaret 09-27-06, 06:52 AM	I wouldn't be surprised if the winner of this competition is merely the guy who puts the time into voting the most often... he's probably responsible for most of the landslides. I went back and checked the results and this doesn't seem likley. Untill now most of the results were in the range of 30% to 60% with no glaring landslides untill now. So I think although it appears mac users can vote more than once it hasn't really been happening.
Balor von Balorvitch 09-27-06, 09:05 AM	80%!!!!! :shocked: That must have been some beating! Like damn 80%! :eek: My pride, my ego, my super ego, my Id, and my dreams have been drained dry :( It appears that I might be wrong Palsha may not have been that popular but Chess Master & Arc Flare could have been extrmely unpopular. Well i have no ill will as you beat me fairly Helian. Every point i made was countered every issue debated and odvisily the people chose Cal by a huge mandate. Next round you very well could have 2 of your own dragons face off LOL. You truly are a king of dragons. I hear you want to recall the Kensai... must be nice to spare one. As for voting more than once i think i voted like 12 times I assumed Idol format and voted all i wanted so i can't blame that. In closing the Draco-pire still sucks hard, but unfortunately the one he sucked was Palsha. Caululithrax Pervails! wwwwwhhhhhhhyyyyyyyyy!!!!!! :weep: LOL
olostar 09-27-06, 10:29 AM	I too am on a Mac and cannot vote more than once without clearing cache, which I cannot sit and do all day long and it really restricts web surfing if you have your cookie level set to the point where you are not receiving any. Anyways, I am sure everyone who has an interest in this has voted multiple times - supporters of winners and losers - it is all scalable and instead of say 480 votes to 110 while it may be 48 to 11 the ratio is still there just inflated by numbers. So no need for Helian to beat himself up, the dragons you have at the final four have been popular choices on the board first and foremost by much of the community, just as the other two you face(d) have - and if all four of them are here by inflated victory do not forget that they had to have defeated Dragons that were defeated but with inflated losses - it works both ways.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 09-27-06, 01:13 PM	All of this is apparently rather moot. One can vote multiple times. I accidentally voted twice, and it accepted both votes. So I voted some more. And some more. I think I voted 30 times for Palsha, and still Caluulilrax won. I wouldn't be surprised if the winner of this competition is merely the guy who puts the time into voting the most often. 'Course, I may have this special power only because I'm on a mac, but I doubt it. I don't think I'll be voting anymore regardless; if I'm capable of it, then someone else is too, and he's probably responsible for most of the landslides. If it were a sheer matter of multiple voting, Korosagra would win by a landslide. I'm at college. ~30 computers at just one library. Uses Internet Explorer and Firefox, so each computer can vote twice. Nothing saved at night, so I can vote 60 times a day. Luckily I'm LG and think like a paladin. Or at the very least, cheating like that doesn't sit well with me. You know what the real problem is? Tools -> Internet Options -> Clear History. Your computer forgets everything you just did, so you can vote again. WizCo has to find some way to stop that. I just don't know what can be done.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-27-06, 02:02 PM	You know Omni, Incarnum doesn't have its own forum because it sucks. I like Incarnum a lot for gestalt campaigns only. They actually work wonders for replacing magical items. But that's about it. I made my own Epic Incarnum document, with Epic soulmelds, that were actually pretty damned cool... But it's just that Incarnum isn't *competetive.* I mean, the best way to use Incarnum is on a creature with huge hit dice that has the ability to take a hellalotta feats. There shoulda been an Incarnum Dragon in the competition... but he woulda been crushed before the first round anyway. Anyway, I'm pretty sure Helian doesn't have the authority to pull Kuro. As far as WotC is concerned, Kuro isn't even his dragon anymore. It's THEIR dragon. <WotC> What, you want Kudos just cause your dragon one? Bullplop! He's OUR dragon now! What, so both dragons in the finals were your "creation?" Hey, we're the ones that skimmed the fluff off of the description, so he's out dragon now. Boys, rub em out <Mafia gunfire>
Balor von Balorvitch 09-27-06, 03:21 PM	You know Omni, Incarnum doesn't have its own forum because it sucks...... I won't go that far, it has a cult follwing larger than people who like Chess Master (that to my knoweledge is 1) :D The only thing i know is that Palshas not getting any thing else from WoTC he will soon be lost to the sands of time. I was for Foda but as his creator has not come to defend his creation so i don't think he deserves the win so out of the 2 creatos left with dragons i will go with the other one ;) As for his dragons since he has given up faith with the Kensai AND the fact that Palsha now prob a vampire spawn and gave up his empire "Long live Lord Caululithrax the greatest dragon to ever unlive!"
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 09-27-06, 03:42 PM	I won't go that far, it has a cult follwing larger than people who like Chess Master (that to my knoweledge is 1) :D Make that 2. Hmm . . . That places me in at least 2 cults here on the boards. 3) psionics is good, but not broken. It can fit in fantasy 4) soulknife rocks! So why's the class so weak? 5) All hail Raz! I'm his high priest. I've gotta get a life . . . But, speaking of Raz, do you think Rickiel would ever enter him in a creature competition? He does that, and it's over. Raz has a huge following. He'd be invincible!
Dragna the Claw 09-27-06, 03:45 PM	Defend Foda from what? He seems to be stumbling along just fine without my sporatic interjections here. But if you want to talk Foda's story or character philosophy or how I see him in this and (hopefully) the last match, I am always browsing the forum. Just ask.
Balor von Balorvitch 09-27-06, 04:33 PM	Defend Foda from what? He seems to be stumbling along just fine without my sporatic interjections here. But if you want to talk Foda's story or character philosophy or how I see him in this and (hopefully) the last match, I am always browsing the forum. Just ask. Oh you are on the boards sorry bout that LOL Soooo how does a gold dragon afford the ale requirments of being a drunken master? How drunk does he get? down to int/wis 1? Is he wasted all the time or does he only drink before combat? Is he an ale dragon or does he go hard liqor? Does he fight like Jackie Chan oe more like a dragon claw/bite routine? Does he show off for local fools (aka the superman on the Effiel tower joke) Does he use wish spells to reverse time so the bar closes later :D All these questions must be adressed! LOL
Helian 09-27-06, 06:10 PM	Well, Balor, no one can ever say that you are a poor loser, thats for sure. Thanks for your comments, high class. As for Tomu, I said I was pondering the idea of ASKING the moderators to pull Korosagra in the recent news that some can multivote. I am very proud of how far I've gotten , and am very sore that this competition can be tainted. I also followed basicly saying that I think I would let quite a few supporters of Korosagra's down if I did. Not to mention that I am sure Dragna has pride as well and would rather win fair and square rather than by default.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-27-06, 06:46 PM	I'm just bitter in general. I was bellyaching about the ability to vote multiple times back when Chessmaster was still up against Palsha (and then after he lost, of course). It's annoying: I'm always so pessimistic, and people don't say "Hey, you were right!" once everything goes to hell and it turns out that I was right. Huh. What was it, that one chick who ticked off Apollo and was able to tell the future but no one listened to her? Cassandra. Ahhhh well. I was mostly just saying that though my original point of "OMFG, Helians two dragons win," it's not really your dragons anymore, so it'd just be stupid of me to be offended by it. That being said, that posistion also allows me to deflect the loss of Chessmaster as being a loss on my part... Someone actually private messaged me to ask for Chessmaster stats a while back, for use in his campaign. That made me happy: my ideas usually aren't met with much enthusiasm with other people (the effect of my low charisma score), so it was nice. Alas.
Helian 09-27-06, 07:07 PM	Well, no matter what anyone says, they will always be MY creations. WOTC can have all the rights to use them as they see fit, but they will always be mine. Like when a daughter gets married, her husband is numero uno, (property, medical, etc) but try to tell her father that she isnt his little girl anymore.
TheyCallMeTomu 09-27-06, 11:00 PM	Yeah, but that's in your mind. I'm just trying to rationalize why it's okay for Kuro to fight Caully ;P
Watchdog_of_Hades 09-28-06, 12:58 AM	I use a Mac, and I can't vote twice. So it's not a PC/Mac issue, since there's at least one of each that can't multi-vote. Assuming voting multiple times is possible at all. Edit: never mind. Maybe it's a once-per-day thing.
FriendlyBiscuit 09-28-06, 05:28 AM	I also am a person who likes Chessmaster. My favorites all along have been Chessmaster and Kreestahlviendhe. They both have a unique quality of being the type of things that'll really make a party do a double-take, or run for the hills. The rest are pretty much just dragon + template or dragon + class, and my players generally just kill those like they would any other dragon. I've used the albino red dragon idea once, and my players still talk about it. It was easy to do, just run a red dragon encounter but make all the stories be about a white dragon. However, the impact on the players of the sudden realization that they were prepared for all the wrong things was priceless. They entered the cave, saw the lava, and saw the white dragon with pink eyes, and simultaneously the players got this "oh ****!" look in their eyes. They survived, but the encounter was memorable. (and I think one of em woulda died if it weren't for the handy "spend an action point to stabilize!" trick) I think I would like to put Chessmaster in a game sometime, too. That would be a little harder. I wouldn't mind a copy of the stats myself, as well as any tips or knowledge you might have after having used the dragon in a game.
Balor von Balorvitch 09-28-06, 09:00 AM	In my games i have used Palsha in them but he was an emperror in the past that died out (I never explained how to my players but i am thinking a Draco-Pired! :D )
TheyCallMeTomu 09-28-06, 12:27 PM	I think I would like to put Chessmaster in a game sometime, too. That would be a little harder. I wouldn't mind a copy of the stats myself, as well as any tips or knowledge you might have after having used the dragon in a game. I'm no longer giving out stats for Chessmaster anymore, as I've decided that I'm considering running the game he was originally slated to be used in. Hopefully the alure of Chessmaster will get me some players for it (for once).
vandyfry 09-28-06, 06:21 PM	My vote is for Foda. I think a Silver dragon would be more approrpiate considering the intelligence hinderence the Gold Dragon must suffer because of the career choice. That being said, though, Foda is a neat concept and should be heavily encouraged.
olostar 09-29-06, 08:43 AM	My vote is for Korosagra, I think the mountain landwyrm is an excellent and stoic vessel for the sombre, pensive and martial disciplines of the way of the open hand, that being said, Korosagra is a fabulous concept, not just because of the actual originality, but that the story line involves the inspiration of lesser beings by a greater one, without which much of our actual cultural society would not exist (and in this instance the emulation follows a being that can actually be seen). Such a positive orientation of dragon kind should be greatly encouraged.
Balor von Balorvitch 09-29-06, 06:01 PM	Hmmm if they did do a & Fight club (they did for the other 2) which dragon do you think would stat out the best/ most intresting.... I would say most liklely the best would be. Cal would intresting just so i would know how to kill his weakness (its not katanas thats for sure :D ) and find out how all his ablties would synergy. You can't win if he has sudden greater dispel magic (Free Dispel then Breath) Chess Master: would be worth it just so i could find out... well he leaves many questions that need sorting out. I COULD read through the XPH and iron it out but someone else doing it would be easier/better. the rest seem like they would speak for themselves just add a class level or more than one head etc.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 09-29-06, 06:11 PM	My vote is for Korosagra, I think the mountain landwyrm is an excellent and stoic vessel for the sombre, pensive and martial disciplines of the way of the open hand, that being said, Korosagra is a fabulous concept, not just because of the actual originality, but that the story line involves the inspiration of lesser beings by a greater one, without which much of our actual cultural society would not exist (and in this instance the emulation follows a being that can actually be seen). Such a positive orientation of dragon kind should be greatly encouraged. My thoughts exactly. Also, I am just really glad we got Monk vs Monk. It works on so many levels. I can really imagine the battle taking place. Complete with battle music: "Everybody was kung-fu fighting . . ." Too bad Korosagra didn't take Blur or Speed enhancements. Then we could go on singing "fast as lightning." P.S. Surely I'm not the only one thinking this. Why has no one else said it?
Balor von Balorvitch 09-29-06, 08:23 PM	M"Everybody was kung-fu fighting . . ." Too bad Korosagra didn't take Blur or Speed enhancements. Then we could go on singing "fast as lightning." Lol but they both have dragon fear so 'it is little bit frightening
Helian 09-30-06, 11:30 AM	Well, that seems like it was a bit of a board killer!
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 09-30-06, 03:24 PM	Well, that seems like it was a bit of a board killer! What, you don't like it? Come on, everybody! Sing! Everybody was kung-fu fighting! They have dragon fear so 'it is little bit frightening!
TheyCallMeTomu 10-01-06, 04:05 PM	Chessmaster's weaknesses? Well, he's not particuarly strong against fire unless he uses Mind over Energy. Psions greatest strength certainly isn't blatent offensive powers, it's defense and augmentation. Increasing AC by 20, granting insight bonuses to virtually everything, and the ability to sacrifice ability points to gain a phenomenal bonus to strength... all abilities of the Chessmaster. Chessmaster's got adaptability due to his arsenal of psionics: he's about equivalent to two psions in versatility, but with better melee. Iron Body would make his melee reduced, but the acid effects of Black wouldn't be negated. I guess the end thing is "Just be stronger"
Ossian 10-02-06, 03:33 AM	Guys, with all due respect, I guess Korosagra is just an overgrown chicken. Maybe the artwork does not give justice to it. But even if it was painted by Jhon Howe, look, Foda has to win. You want to know why? Simple: the name. Nomina sunt Omina, the latins said. In names one finds the destiny. Not many people know that Dragonish Language is quite similar to Portuguese, and our sloppy entered this competition using only his nickname (real name must have been too long even by dragonic standards for the tournament's application form). So, open a Ptg - Engl dictionary and find out that Foda "The Sloppy" is an unstoppable force of nature... Ossian
olostar 10-02-06, 08:34 AM	Simple: the name. Nomina sunt Omina, the latins said. In names one finds the destiny. Ah Yes, but it was Cicero who quoth - Nomina Sunt Odiosa - Names Are Odious. As one of my first directors told me, well done is always better than well said - in the case of Korosagra it will not be well done as in flambè but well done as in done in by an onslaught of irresistible granite-hard blows, ceasing only when his foe has breathed his last. And yes, the word Foda is a nice little Portugese curse word, but in this case, to marry the two languages, when Korosagra is finished with his second last opponent, the other is going to be Fodad-up (if you know what I mean).
Nathan_Lazaret 10-02-06, 12:01 PM	Nomina sunt Omina, the latins said. In names one finds the destiny. Ossian Ah Yes, but it was Cicero who quoth - Nomina Sunt Odiosa - Names Are Odious. And Homer said "Scooby Doo can doo doo, but Jimmy Carter is smarter." A linguist and a philosopher at a dragon fight is like a shark with an ak47. Freakin scary. Actually now that I think about it, it would be pretty funny you two could be like the Bob Cole and Harry Neil of D&D. Ossian- "I was talking to Fodas parents the other day, great dragons, and they told me its a little known fact that Foda is Portuguese for F..." Olostar-"Not only that but if you happen to be in the greater mountain state area they run a nice little Inn off of dirt road #4" Ossian-"Foda assumes the "qi ma shi" in preparation for the battle. Which happens to be riding stance in Chinese." Olostar-"Holy sweater vest Johnson!! Korosaga has kicked him in the chest before bowing. Very under handed. That reminds me of the time some ancient and antiquated philosopher said something about the Greeks or the Romans or something. " Korosaga ftw:P
Watchdog_of_Hades 10-02-06, 06:27 PM	*snip*You're stretching. Really far. Here's an example of why random sayings of random cultures can't be trusted to be true, especially in D&D. "Money can't buy happiness," people say. However, money can buy a ring of Elation, or better yet, one of Empyreal Ecstasy or Sublime Revelry. So money can, in fact, buy happiness. Also, Draconic isn't Portuguese, which doesn't even exist in D&D. Also, if in names one found destiny, then the following would be true: Robert: ROBBERt. He's going to grow up to be a robber. Gary: sounds like "garish." Therefore, all people with that name would be sartorial idiots. Spencer: pronounced SpenSIR. So all people would address that person as "sir," which would imply him being better than everyone else. Jennifer: sounds kind of like "conifer," so all Jennifers would be tree huggers.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-02-06, 06:44 PM	Money can't buy happiness the intangible thing. It can, however, buy magical items that induce happiness. But the thing you're buying is the item, not the happiness. You're buying the item to get the happiness, but you still have to do something to get the item. Alternatively, you're paying someone to cast a wish for you to always be happy. But even then, you're not buying the happiness, you're buying the wish. This is all very philosophical and technicalities, but the issue isn't about philosophy v. Linguistics: it's about economics. There's not a cost of production to happiness, there's a cost of production to wishes or rings or spells. So you're buying all of the stuff that has a cost of production. Then again, I guess the cost of production of happiness is "the ring" but the happiness isn't something that you're taking from someone else, it's the ring that you're taking. Of course, the opportunity cost of selling the ring is that they lose the ring (the physical thing), and in doing so the ability to make themselves happy.
Nathan_Lazaret 10-02-06, 06:50 PM	Money can buy happiness, cause money can buy wave runners, and D&D books. Have you ever seen an unhappy person on a wave runner or playing D&D for that matter? I thought not.;) Nate out.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-02-06, 06:51 PM	AND AS FOR KURO... No wonder I always call him Kuro: Kurosagra is NOT a japanese name! I mean, it's ALMOST a Japanese name, so that sugguests that you would expect it to be one. But you know what's not right there? There's no vowel between the g and the r. Kurosagura would work (the u after g could be virtually silently, like the u in desu), or Kurosagara (which is what I've always THOUGHT the name was: Sagara Sanosuke is a character from Rurouni Kenshin, and we're all aware that Kuro is black). Kurosagera? Eh, doesn't sound as good. Kurosagira? Almost sounds feminine. And finally Kurosagora, which has too much sound from the o to really be considered the same name even. Granted, there's a long standing tradition of pseudo-japanese fiction/fantasy that only partially follows the naming conjunctions. For instance, in Legend of the Five Rings, there's the usage of the syllable "tu" which is, of course, not in the Japanese language (though it might exist through katakana, but then it's not native); tsu, however, is a single syllable that does exist. Of course, the Dark Dragon Fu Leng isn't a Japanese name, but it's not even trying to be: it pulls more upon Chinese naming (perhaps sugguesting that a mostly, though not entirely, Japanese fantasy world sees China as being the invading darkness; rather ironic when you consider the events of world war 2, but I digress). As far as the validity of each contendor, I go with Foda. We've all heard the typical perfectionist monk. We've all heard of the Drunken Master. But I've never heard of the Drunken Master Dragon, but I have heard of perfectionist dragons (though traditionally, Kuro would be a gold dragon, whereas Foda might be the mountainwyrm...)
TheyCallMeTomu 10-02-06, 06:53 PM	Nathan, you didn't pay attention to my arguement! That, or you posted before you read it: DnD books and Wave Runners are INPUTS to happiness. You also have to add time and labor (DMing and going to the water?) to get happiness, so you're not buying the happiness, you're buying to be able to produce happiness. Incidentally, the entire idea of not being able to buy happiness is that happiness ITSELF can't be traded, because it's a state of being. However... I could imagine a society of telepaths that traded various levels of happiness. In such an event, you could quite LITERALLY buy happiness.
Dragna the Claw 10-02-06, 07:13 PM	Oh jeez. I had no idea Foda meant anything like that... Is it bad I just thought the name off the top of my head and liked it? Honestly, I just thought a short dragon name would be refreshing, one people could easily pronounce.
Helian 10-02-06, 08:50 PM	No wonder I always call him Kuro: Kurosagra is NOT a japanese name! I mean, it's ALMOST a Japanese name, so that sugguests that you would expect it to be one. But you know what's not right there? Hmmm... who ever said KOrosagra was Japanesse? Or Asian at all for that matter. He is a dragon in a fantasy world. And besides, monks are more likely Chinese or Tibetian anyways.
olostar 10-02-06, 09:21 PM	And besides, monks are more likely Chinese or Tibetian anyways. Oh Ho? Really? Who makes all that really good german beer then...hmmmmm? Maybe Foda is a German Martial artist monk drunken master martial warrior - up there in the alps brewing all that fine Wachfeiner! And Dragna, we believe you had no underlying malicious portugese slandering hostility intended whatsoever when you named Foda - from the start I believed it be a nice clean alternative to Gorothraxyralstilatorickongoph...... the black.
Watchdog_of_Hades 10-02-06, 10:04 PM	*thing about buying happiness*.Step 1: use powerful magic to create a being that can reach into some intangible reservoir of happiness. Step 2: pay him to channel some of that happiness into you. If you're going to argue that you're buying the channeling, then money can't buy anything. You're not buying groceries, you're buying the promise that the person who owns the store won't sue you for walking out of the store with his stuff.
Helian 10-02-06, 10:52 PM	Oh Ho? Really? Who makes all that really good german beer then...hmmmmm? Actually, the German monks were as famous, perhaps more for there pretzels. But, then again, beer AND pretzels. Yum
TheyCallMeTomu 10-03-06, 12:50 AM	There's no such thing as "buying" then; there's giving up A in return for B. If we assume conservation of "stuff," (edit: yes I realize that there's no such thing as conservation of energy or mass when magic is introduced into the system, but things are what they are: the question is one of what something is at the most primordial level, because it's from that that everything else just happens to exist as a construction of these elements) then the person who is giving away B must be recieving A. It's not that a channeler is giving up happiness, it's that a channeler is giving away a service. You buy the service FOR the happiness, and really it's an arbitrary distinction. But we're talking about philosophers and linguists here: arbitrary distinctions are what you argue over! Anyway, you're right. I misread Koro as Kuro. Koro doesn't sound even half as Japanese (no clue why). However: Of course I'm going to automatically assume he's japanese. With the exception of the gr part, you used a series of dual letter syllables: Ko-ro-sa-g?-ra. I won't deny that there are certainly Chinese or Tibetian or random-fantasy-world names that could have the same pattern, but that naming convention is mostly specific to Japan. It has something to do with hiragana versus the kanji stolen from China... I mean, sure, it's just random asiany dragon. I know. I mentioned that before: there's a long standing tradition of being ambiguous as to what asian (or at least east asian) culture names/weapons/techniques are borrowed from. It falls under the same overarching category of Kung Fu: a simplification (and some would say oversimplification). I just pointed out why *I*, who's relatively well versed in coming up with randomarse japanese names out of the blew (double entendre?! No, I just accidentally typed blew) thought there was something wrong with the instinctive naming of Kurosagara. One, because it's Koro (which my kuro usage didn't even take care of), and two because it goes against my instincts of adding a vowel between the g and the r. I never said it was a bad thing: I called it "wrong" but that was supposed to be in the context of my own sensibilities (which are not universal, but rather a narrowminded way of looking at things). My apologies if it didn't come off as thus. Edit: Incidentally, does Koro fight with his palms or with balled fists? Or neither I guess, seeing as how he has claws (Karate chop anyone?). Something about a buff trained landwyrm doesn't really strike me, monk or no. A drunken Gold Dragon is just funny. Which brings up other stuff: Foda's name is unintentional, but the dual-syllable style of naming means something. Hmmm... Wait a second. Hmmmm... I'm not sure "Fo" could be a japanese syllable either. That'd be hu/fu with the yo in subscribt... but I think that's only for Katakana words as well! I suppose I should vote once for Korosagra, having come to this realization. Weird: None of the asiany dragons followed Japanese naming conventions. I mean, there's nothing wrong with that, just surprising... hmmm... there were probably a bunch of submissions that did, and just wern't decided or nominated. Anyone remember any other asiany dragons from the nomination round?
TheyCallMeTomu 10-03-06, 01:01 AM	Not to hog, but to end the "happiness" scenario... Fine, maybe YOU can buy happiness, but what I'm concerned with is whether or not I can. And since I don't have any magical genies, I'll just have to buy inputs, and get happiness after "Value added"
Ossian 10-03-06, 03:54 AM	Uhhh....well, wow. I just thought it was a funny assonance. I found out the 'foda' thing months ago during a SWOT analysis (strenghts, weaknesses, opportunities and threats). A very good brasilian (native portuguese speaker) friend happened to be there. The professor wanted to show off and said "If I recall correctly, the portuguese for SWOT is FODA, isn't it Ms. Aragona (not the real name)?" He was right (Fortalezas, Oportunidades, Debilidades y Amenazas), but my friend could not help but chuckling. Only then the professor (who HAD been to brasil eons before, realized what he said and laughed). You know, since it was the last day of the poll I just wanted to advocate with a dragon with a funny name as compared (I am with Olosatr here) to "Wheezolfgoojnwdiwyfwe the mighty" ("humans, our names are too long and complicated to be pronounced by your inferior race" is a typical dragon quotation...) Besides, as I said I just don't like Korosagra artwork. Looks far too much like a big chicken (where, exactly, are the granitic knuckles? retractable hands?), whereas the idea of a drunken kung fu master 120 feet long is just to exciting (I am looking forward to seeing Foda take on Calululithrax). Finally, before going back to work (that thing that sometimes I must actually DO instead of pretending), I googled KORO. Turns out it has 5 references and a japanese meaning. Check it out on the wikipedia: KORO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koro) Respect. Ossian PS Hail Foda! PPS Honestly: no clue of actually said Nomina Sunt Omina.... PPPS FODA stands also for Feature-Oriented Domain Analysis, whatever that is....
FriendlyBiscuit 10-03-06, 04:28 AM	Leapin' lizards and bouncin' blueballs, batman, this thread seems to favor the drunken master's style of charging. Crazyazzed tangents and all manner of expialidocious! Not sure whether to keep reading or unsubscribe... though it's admittedly less pointless than my job.
Nathan_Lazaret 10-03-06, 07:47 AM	Tomu, I did read your post I just chose to ignore it. Why? because I live under the belief system that different people are alowed to have different opinions about the same topic. Hey you wanna know what else is an intangible? Maniacal Egotism. Lighten up dude. Money can buy beer! However, I have seen sad people drinking. Olostar- How is the weather in Hickory, I've never been there but I'm a big fan of their chips! If Korosaga is a Benidictine type monk does that mean he hits people with tablets or illuminated scripture. Maybe hes like the monks of Antioch and uses the Holy Hand grenade.:) Peace Nate
TheyCallMeTomu 10-03-06, 12:11 PM	<twitch twitch> I'm not trying to be egotistical. People are allowed their own opinions, they're not allowed their own facts. This isn't about facts. CURSES! But people also aren't really allowed their own logic... after all, two plus two has to equal four. If it doesn't, then we really need to question what we mean when we say two plus two equals four. I mean, (2+2) is always going to function identically to 4. But 2 + 2 isn't always going to function like four... I mean, 2 + 2.... followed by * 8 will result in 18, whereas 4... *8 will result in 32! This is really an issue of linguistics, rather than logic. Problem with logic is that, whilst flawless, it's only flawless if you're doing it right, and it's virtually impossible to do it right when you're using language. I, fortunately or unfortunately, don't look at things from the big picture (Macroverse?) but rather from the little picture (Microverse?): likely the reason why I prefer microeconomics to macroeconomics. Things are all composed of smaller things. Yes I know, at a certain point it's tedious and serves no purpose, but it's a philosophical arguement, so part of the assumption is that you're going to look into tedious and pointless things just to match the technicalities. OR you were just trying to be silly, and I took it WAY too seriously, because I tend to do that. Really, it's a sitcom worthy flaw of mine. Quite hazardous. Anyway, let's all clear the bad blood here: obviously, no one but me wants to get into philosophical jargon. Koro kind of looks like a chicken. Foda kicks booty with his drunken style. They're probably both going to be eliminated by the vampire. Unfortunate... But hey, who knows. Foda at the least has spellcasting, including access to Death Ward: that'll protect him from the shadow breath, right?
methix 10-03-06, 12:24 PM	Blech, too many dragon-monks for my taste. Frankly, i'd just love for Caululithrax to amble on over and finish this nice and easy.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-03-06, 01:07 PM	HOLY HECKTACULAR! They were only seperated by .3%? Yeesh. If it wouldn't be a total BS maneuver (and if I really cared) I'd say that deserves a recount. Wow. That was... huh. Wow. Anyway, I'm voting for the vamp. Congrats on your win Helian ;D
Balor von Balorvitch 10-03-06, 02:37 PM	Wow Helians team wins gold and silver! I would imagine Palsha is 4th and Foda is 3rd. Long live the Draco-pire!
Vonril 10-03-06, 02:50 PM	Okay, I have just *got* to interject a correction here on the comment people keep making that Korosagra looks like a chicken. The DnD art being used for Korosagra and a rather hideous palette swap for the spellwarped rust dragon, Yarzasi-Korin, are both that of a *wyvern* which does, in fact, look very much like a lizardy chicken. That being said, it looks *nothing* like the Mountain Landwyrm art from Dragonomicon, which is what Korosagra is, and is a very poor respresentation of a mountain landwyrm. For those who don't own Dragonomicon, think more of a colossal-sized wingless lizard with jagged rocks for skin.
Dragna the Claw 10-03-06, 03:39 PM	Well it was a good run. Good luck to the final competitors!
Nathan_Lazaret 10-03-06, 04:22 PM	Congrats Helian. :) You be da Dragon God. Wow what a margin! If victory margin were representative of hp left (like Foda falls and Korosaga has 1 hp left) imagine that fight. That would have been amazing. Think of the landscape that would lay in the wake of such a clash of Monk Dragons. Tomu I was just being silly. No bad blood ok.;) oh and in base 2, 2+2=100, and my fave in base 13 6x9=42 Peace Nate
Helian 10-03-06, 06:10 PM	WOW Man, to tell the truth, I didnt think Korosagra would make it through. And I guess I was all but right! .3% OMFG! Geez, thats really cool. Congrats to Dragna for a great dragon, it almost couldn't have been a closer battle. Congrats to Balor as well, top 4 outta, what, 600? pretty damn good. Oh and Balor, Palsha and Foda would have to scrap it out for 3rd and 4th. Just because Korosagra and Foda were scheduled later it doesnt equate 3rd!
Watchdog_of_Hades 10-03-06, 06:35 PM	You know why they put Caululithrax's picture up by the competition link? Because he's going to win, that's why! Korosagra's fancy fighting styles won't do him much good when he's a dried husk, will they?
TheyCallMeTomu 10-03-06, 08:33 PM	If you're using base 2, you're not talking about 2 anymore. I mean, if you ask people to get you a six pack in binary, that's, what, 110? It's inappropriate to do the math of 110 + 110 without converting it back into base ten. But eh. Math is a language. So try FOL form: A = A. If A doesn't equal A, you've got yourself a problem. This is a valid Arguement The sky is blue (which we define as property A, to avoid ambiguity) The sky is not blue (which is also property A; not that the sky isn't depressed) Therefore, I am a god. Why? Because a valid arguement in which if all the premises are true, the conclusion must be true! Since something cannot possible be A and not A (unless you've mistakenly labled two things A, which is what people have a problem with in language), there's no situation in which all the premises are true and the conclusion is false! It's arbitrary but true. That being said, 2 + 2 = 100 is wrong because you're switching your meanings again! 10 + 10 = 100 I can accept, but 2 + 2 = 100? No. Maybe if you were using base 3, in which it'd be 10.... 10 right?
Watchdog_of_Hades 10-03-06, 08:48 PM	11, actually.
Quicksilver 10-03-06, 09:41 PM	You know why they put Caululithrax's picture up by the competition link? Because he's going to win, that's why! Korosagra's fancy fighting styles won't do him much good when he's a dried husk, will they? I see the final battle as a confrontation on a craggy mountaintop at night. Korosagra is earth-bound, so he has to wait for Caululithrax to come to him. After a few exchanges of blows, it would come to a grappling contest, Korosagra trying to squeeze the life out of Caululithrax while having the blood and life drained out of him. I see the vampiric shadow dragon triumph, and a new, vampiric landwyrm serving him. I vote for Caululithrax! Congratulations to Helian - most of us tried, but you've won before the end. I'll have to remember to lodge at least two entries next time.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-03-06, 10:19 PM	At this point, Caulithax wins. From a battle standpoint anyway. Cauly can drain Koro's levels, he can cast spells, he's got flight... really, what's Koro to do? He can't fly! He doesn't have a magically extending staff... he doesn't rid on a cloud... he'd be UTTERLY HELPLESS against the bleak lord of the night...
Watchdog_of_Hades 10-03-06, 11:57 PM	Excellant vision, Quicksilver. That's more or less what's running through my mind... and I too vote for Caululithrax.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-04-06, 01:08 AM	I envision a battle among the mountaintops where Korosagra will intentionally blind himself in order to not let his sight be decieved by the shadows and illusions, relying entirely on other senses to battle his vampiric shadowy nemesis. Lightning crashes being the only bit of light to reveal the silouette of the vampric monstrosity. Of course, Caullyboy still would win. C'mon, seriously, he's a vampire.
Watchdog_of_Hades 10-04-06, 01:15 AM	Yeah. How can a vampire not win!? I mean, the ending of Dracula was just to make the reader feel good. What really happens is that Dracula stops the knife and devours everyone with gusto.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-04-06, 02:30 AM	All in all, I'd prefer Chessmaster to have won (Curse you Balor! Curse you Palsha!), but I won't have any major disagreements if Vampy wins.
olostar 10-04-06, 08:45 AM	For story line purposes here too - remember that Korosagra faces not only the dark vampiric one, but I should think that all those that Caululithrax has felled would now be in his retinue - as the two main opponents face off on the high mountain plateau with the moon rising over their shoulders, Korosagra stops dead in his tracks, sensing the approach of the vampiric spawn at his rear, while the draconic lord of the shadows smiles evilly before him, barring his fangs, seeking to add one more to his undead host of the slain.....
TheyCallMeTomu 10-04-06, 12:21 PM	I'm not so sure about that, if only because the competition has sort of been assumed to be one on one. Besides: I think he only beat a Pseudodragon, a Samurai, and... what was the first guy he went up again?
Quicksilver 10-04-06, 10:29 PM	I know someone mentioned this before, but isn't the usual alignment for a Mountain Landwyrm Lawful Evil? Shadow dragons and Vampiric dragons are both always Chaotic Evil, so Caululithrax would be the most evil, most selfish being that you can imagine. His dark image makes him a consumate villain. However, there is nothing in the backstory for Korosagra that says he isn't evil. He doesn't train the monks, they just watch him. The monks themselves may be Lawful Evil. So it looks like all it takes for evil to win is for good men to do nothing. Evil has already won. You can now take your pick between Law and Chaos. This suggests an adventure to me: The party finds out about an upcoming duel between two dragons and must rescue a hostage or find an item in their lair before the dragon returns.
Watchdog_of_Hades 10-05-06, 12:06 AM	In that case, I side with chaos. Well, actually, I side with vampires, but in this case, they're the same.
Nathan_Lazaret 10-05-06, 08:08 AM	Quicksilver, I'd join that expedition. In my Vision though it's our job to make sure that neither Dragon walks(or flies) away from this fight.:fight!: Which could get really scary if the vamp wins, because then we have to wait around for 3-4 days to make sure the monk/vampire gets it too. That being said, I'm on my way to check into some ballista, and maybe a chance to relive the Church of any scrolls of resurrection they may have lying around.:shifty: Peace Nate
Helian 10-05-06, 08:43 AM	I know someone mentioned this before, but isn't the usual alignment for a Mountain Landwyrm Lawful Evil? Yeah, In the manual it actually says: Alignment Usually Lawful Evil I took the "usually" literally, as in most but not all. In Korosagra's build I have created him as Lawful Neutral. But you are correct in regards to me not mentioning it in the backstory. With the limited script of the submissions, it would have taken to much time explaining why he wasn't the norm for his breed. Also, I thought his story was pretty good as is, and felt I would enter the "bad gone good" genre that alot of other submissions followed. (and good gone bad for that matter) I still have Korosagra's build saved if anyone is interested. I have Caululithrax's as well but its on scrap paper, and I'd would need time to compile.
Balor von Balorvitch 10-05-06, 09:48 AM	So far NONE have said they voted for the land wyrm. I hope he loses by something like 90% for my pride if nothing else. Oh and could not Cal revive all his fallen foes as vamp spawns? If so Wingless Monk has got even more to worry about :evillaugh Oh and if you think Cal has had an easy ride then i will remind you that Palsha defeated Chess Master and Arc Flare by 60%+ margins. To be so utterly destroyed by Cal shows he has the peoples support. Cal is like a Nazi super vampire (like Baron Blood) that cannot be defeated by any convental means add on Kasian Vampire changes (from Octobers Dragon) and you have an even more indestructable Vampiric Dragon.
Balor von Balorvitch 10-05-06, 09:51 AM	Besides: I think he only beat a Pseudodragon, a Samurai, and... what was the first guy he went up again? Frist of all the samurai beat Chess Master. :D Second of all he beat all the peeps in his category (most them were undead unluckly)
TheyCallMeTomu 10-05-06, 12:15 PM	I was asking who the vampire had beaten because those would be his vampire spawn: pay attention. Anyway, Palsha beat Chessmaster by "60+" in the way that Koro beat Foda at "50+" : by less than 1 percentage point above 60. It was no overwhelming majority, just a simple majority. As opposed to Foda v. Landwyrm, which was a miniscule majority. In retrospect, who the heck has Koro had to beat so far? Other than Foda, I can't remember anyone of note.
Helian 10-05-06, 12:43 PM	Ok, here ya go Tomu... Caully beat (in order) Silversheen, Gan the Rusty, and Palsha Koros beat (in order) Rampart, Krystalwind, and Foda If you wanna talk "who beat who", and "he only had to beat..." Geez, whatever man. However, before you go further down that road, dont forget that "Chesster" didn't make it past the first round of the competiton. You can thank the mighty Palsha for that.
Balor von Balorvitch 10-05-06, 03:15 PM	...... However, before you go further down that road, don’t forget that "Chesster" didn't make it past the first round of the competition. You can thank the mighty Palsha for that. Yes that’s all I am saying Tomu is Mighty Palsha :D defeated him in the opening round then defeated Arc Flare so he would at least a major assets as a vampire spawn. Imagine the build you could give him if he could Karmic Strike with an energy drain attack :drool: It would a fitting end if Caul and Kuro battled it out all day. Kuro managed to pin him down claw on his throat atop the Graveyard that Kuro ambushed him that morning "You abomination! Witness the irony as the sun sets on your unnatural life" Kuro roared with the disciplined fury "Your correct about one thing Helian brother the sun does rest..." "Its over Helien spawn! The qualities of good will always prevail over the quantity of evil!" Just as Kuro puts pressure to collapse Cauls throat and take his head, the ground erupts with an earthquake of movement that knocks both dragons off balance. 4 huge forms arouse all as shadowy and evil as feared Caululithraxl followed by the Shadow Dragons encircling the finalists then they all made way for an extremely pale man adorned with eastern arms on his shoulder was the tiniest of dragons. Both the man the Psedo Dragon and the shadows had an unnatural aura to them and seeing their bright red eyes left no doubt that 6 vampires stood before the Draco kensai. The man spoke with voice coming from a coffin "Quality of merit will not give you victory, it is an illusion, figment, stories that we tell our children to help them sleep. I once commanded men of extreme loyalty that followed my merit. My samurai would lay down their lives for me if I commanded it because they had faith that I would prevail. I now know true loyalty can only come through power not faith in a greater good" Kuro curled into attack position as samurai shifted into a macabre sliver dragon and Caululithrax slowly rose up and spoke. "Its over, Dead or alive, you're coming with me!" and at that all the vampires came forward pulling the terrified Korosagra down into a Bloody frenzy
TheyCallMeTomu 10-05-06, 04:36 PM	Look, I'm tired of everyone taking shots at me! I wasn't trying to say "Well, he only had to beat these weaklings" I WAS SAYING THAT HE DOESN'T HAVE A CERTAIN DRAGON FROM EARLIER IN THE COMPETITION AS A DRAGON SPAWN, BECAUSE SOMEONE SEEMED TO THINK THAT HE DID! YEESH
Helian 10-05-06, 05:09 PM	Hmmm, these are what I was commenting on, these would make one think you meant otherwise who the heck has Koro had to beat so far? Other than Foda, I can't remember anyone of note. I'm not so sure about that, if only because the competition has sort of been assumed to be one on one. Besides: I think he only beat a Pseudodragon, a Samurai, and... what was the first guy he went up again?
TheyCallMeTomu 10-05-06, 07:14 PM	Neither of those was somehow to say "OMFG he had it easy" Just that I didn't remember anyone. Except an Albino red. Someone said that Koro would have to go up against an army of Vampire Spawn. I said A.) Only the three dragons Caully had to beat already would be vampire spawn and B.) it's unclear as to whether or not the competition includes minions and followers as part of the battle. I mean, the students watching Koro might take care of the vampire spawn eh? It's all out of context yo, but I'll admit that's as much my fault as anyone elses. Still, it's all about labeling theory: Everyone thinks that I'm a self-superior jackass, so they respond to me as such. I oppose that notion, but opposing it just reinforces it. Hooray for Sociology!
Helian 10-05-06, 08:27 PM	Yeah, right.:rolleyes: Saying thing like "He only had to beat" and "I can't remember anyone of note" are not taken out of context, it is what you said and it has meaning. You are saying whether you realize it or not, is that those combatants are weak, unworthy and/or I had an easy path. You may have said these things not malicously, but dude, most people will take it for how it is written. Your dragon was a telepath, we however, are not.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-05-06, 09:14 PM	Inflection is lost in the internet. If you didn't have a preconcieved notion of me as a jackass (or at the very least, if you had the preconceived notion of me as a humble paladin), then you'd certainly be prone to reading it differently. HOWEVER! You bring up a good point. If you can be subconsciously driven by your perceptions of me, I guess it's possible that my subconscious anger at Chessmaster's defeat causes me to belittle other competitors, thus putting them down outside of my own conscious intentions. And I already mentioned that: it's as much my fault as anyone elses. Anyway, I'd certainly think Palsha would be Caulithax's greatest spawn, but I will remind you that Energy drain is only usable once a round (I can't remember where I heard that, probably an FAQ or errata).
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 10-05-06, 10:17 PM	I mean, the students watching Koro might take care of the vampire spawn eh? And that is just one more reason I vote Koro for the win. Lets say both Koro and Caul bring in their followers into battle. Caul's spawn are driven by the fact that they are his spawn. They have no choice in the matter. Meanwhile, Koro's students fight for the honor, name, and well-being of their sensai. Moreover, a true sensai is in some ways like a father to his pupils. They care about him. Think of him as Mr. Miagi (sp?). Koro's students have a reason to fight. Meanwhile, any bit of the originals under Caul's command have a reason to want Caul to die. Sure, technically that doesn't affect things a bit, but come on! They're now evil vampire spawn thanks to him! If they don't want the revenge, they at least want their freedom (and their own power). Koro has loyal followers. Caul has potentially traitorous minions.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-05-06, 11:17 PM	I was just trying to say that if their minions come into play they just cancel eathother out. I assumed that minions don't really matter either way.
Watchdog_of_Hades 10-06-06, 12:08 AM	The motivation doesn't matter. Caululithrax can order, "Try your hardest to kill the followers of the nearest landwyrm, then try your hardest to kill the nearest landwyrm," and the spawn will do just as well as if they wanted the eternal lord of the night to win.
Ossian 10-06-06, 07:07 AM	Well, I doubt there is much left of Gan the Rusty to reanimate. Can you imagine the 180' Calu delivering a delicate kiss of death to the 20' Gan? Hmmm....sounds like me trying to take just a bite from an M&M... Palsha, on the other hand, is (or was) too GOOD! He might have just maimed or beheaded himself with a katana swing, once defeat was certain, rather than letting his carcass be reanimated by a Vampire. Silversheen, though, looked like a pretty tough lizard and one that Calu could also outsmart, not just defeat. So, with such a bad**s by his side, Calu might really enjoy his finishing off Korosagra. However, I doubt that Silversheen would retain all of his draconic powers. He would possibly be a threatening colossal zombie in the shape of a broken neck dragon. I guess Korosagra can use him to warm up. As a martial artist he must know and appreciate the importance of some stretching for joints and muscles before the actual fight begins... O.
Nathan_Lazaret 10-06-06, 08:08 AM	If you didn't have a preconceived notion of me as a jackass (or at the very least, if you had the preconceived notion of me as a humble paladin) I'm familiar with the "paladin" class however the "Jackass" eludes me, is it a prestige class? Best reflex saves in the game from getting swung at all the time? Prerequisite 0 charisma? What does the feat tree look like? Level 2 - spell like ability once a day Alienate audience. Level 4 - Ethereal shovel- helps character dig himself out of hole. Level 6 - Alienate twice a day.
Balor von Balorvitch 10-06-06, 08:39 AM	...... Meanwhile, any bit of the originals under Caul's command have a reason to want Caul to die. Sure, technically that doesn't affect things a bit, but come on! They're now evil vampire spawn thanks to him! If they don't want the revenge, they at least want their freedom (and their own power). Koro has loyal followers. Caul has potentially traitorous minions. Ok lets not forget that Palsha had an army backing him up and he was still defeated. Kuros students are not going to win vs 4 shadow dragons, Gan and Palsha. The fear aura alone will hold back most. Remeber good always triumphing over evil is a tale we tell our kids. It doesn't stand up in D&D.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-06-06, 03:09 PM	Jackass prestige class Select this prestige class if you want to be utterly unresponsive to constructive criticism and wish to have zero dependence upon others. Of course, there are certain side effects. Requirements Skills: Any Knowledge skill 8 ranks Skill Focus (Any) Special: Charisma score 8 or less: if you possess the leadership feat, you immediately and irrevocably lose all benefit of that feat. Religion: You must not have a patron deity, unless your patron deity also possesses levels in the Jackass prestige class. Class FEatures Weapon and armor: NO! Unresponsive to kind words: Starting at 1st level, the Jackass is immune to the effects of diplomacy: any diplomacy check to improve the Jackasses attitude automatically fails. In addition, the Jackass is immune to morale effects that grant penalties or bonuses, except those that incite rage. In addition, a Jackass is immune to intimidation checks. However, an opponent can spend a full round action to make a knowledge check in a category of knowledge that the jackass has at least 5 skill ranks in, focing the Jackass to make a will save (DC = Skill result). Failure indicates that the jackass spends a full round arguing over semantics and specifics or other irrelevant details. Stubborn as one's namesake: Starting at 2nd level, the Jackass gains a +2 morale bonus on will saves to resist charm and compulsion spells and effects: his unresponsive to kind words ability does not prevent this from functioning. In addition, a jackass that has been charmed bestows a penalty equal to his level on the charisma check of anyone trying to get him to do something he wouldn't normally do. Unwittingly infuriate audience: Starting at 3rd level, the Jackass has the ability to unwittingly infuriate a group of people. In any encounter, combat or diplomatic, roll 1d20: if the result is a 1, all participants of the encounter other than the Jackass are affected as per the spell Rage (even though they are unwilling). If the d20 roll comes up as something other than a 1, nothing happens for this encounter; however, for every encounter that the audience is not enraged, a -1 penalty is bestowed on the d20 roll. Once a result of 1 or less occurs and the audience becomes enraged, the penalty resets to 0. Self-righteous Endurance: Starting at 4th level, the Jackass is immune to fatigue or exhaustion caused as the result of arguing endlessly over pointless topics. I'm surrounded by idiots: Starting at 5th level, the Jackass has mastered the true power of jackassery, the ability to consider everyone else in the world to simply be moronic. The Jackass is effectively under the effects of an irrevocable Mind Blank at all times.
Nathan_Lazaret 10-06-06, 03:33 PM	^^ Nice ;) That's awsome.
Helian 10-06-06, 03:48 PM	If you didn't have a preconcieved notion of me as a jackass (or at the very least, if you had the preconceived notion of me as a humble paladin), then you'd certainly be prone to reading it differently. Ahh, Tomu.... I have no preconcieved notion of you. Quite the contrary. I dont really care what you are like, just what you have to say. I am only responding to messages on a message board, thats it. I just reply to what you say, but I don't consider trying to peek into your psyche as part of my responsiblitites on a message board. So, in closing, I always considered paladins as pompous jackass's. Now, is the Jackass prestige class for Paladins? Can they continue to go up in levels as a paladin as well? Hahaha:D Just kiddin'
TheyCallMeTomu 10-06-06, 08:00 PM	Alright Helian, I'll take your word for it, but I honestly think you don't give enough credit to people's preconcieved notions. I mean, if someone were to ask you "What's you interpretation of that guy, TheyCallMeTomu" I still don't believe that an honest answer would be "It's all just words on a page man. Words on a page." But if you can honestly say that, then that's that. Thing is, there's no such thing as NOT reading between the lines. Even a literal interpretation is subject to ambiguity, and even if it weren't, words convey ideas; the purpose of language is to communicate information about things not present! I'm going off on a woeful tangent. I will, however, say this: I know I, for example, don't have any specific, conscious, recurring preconcieved notions of you or the others. But that doesn't mean I don't have any... hmmmm... I must research this further. Anyway, who came up with the idea of Paladin's as pompus asses? I guess it works if not only do you think you're the greatest thing since sliced bread, but you can get the rest of the world to think it too. Interesting point here: Traditionally, people who are charismatic are better able to resist the advances of the charismatic. But bitter ol' misers like me (wait, where the hell did I get miser from!?) are the first to scream out when someone is using BS: wouldn't that sugguest LOW charisma people are the best at fighting charisma? New Feat: Crochidy Old Man Requirements: Charisma 9 or less Benefits: Whenever anyone makes a charisma check or diplomacy check against you, the DC is raised by twice your ability score penalty in charisma.
Watchdog_of_Hades 10-06-06, 08:57 PM	Crotchety young man. Your Charisma goes up with age.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-07-06, 01:32 PM	Old in mind, young in spirit. Or is it the other way around? Oh well.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-07-06, 04:01 PM	Eh. Seems that the competition is almost over. I only signed up for the boards for the purpose of giving my dragons a chance to partake. When Chessmaster was nominated, I thought "Hey, maybe I'll strike it gold!" I never could have imagined that I'd be defeated in the first round. Curse that Samurai! But alas, such is life. Anyone have any idea what next years creature competition is gonna be? It seems the Year of the Dragon is at an end, so what's next year going to be?
Helian 10-07-06, 08:10 PM	Heaven and Hell, that would be awsome. Just think, The Holy vs The Horde. Not Hell persay, demons and devils, vs the "Heavenly" Just think of the different character builds and diversity of entries!!!!!! That would be wicked, hmmmm....maybe WOTC will do it!
TheyCallMeTomu 10-07-06, 09:54 PM	Just so long as the demonic princes, the celestial paragons, and the devil lords are all left out of it. Especially the devil lords. Or at least Asmodeus. If you go back to 2nd edition, he was tough shizznit yo... A Guide to Hell. That was a good book.
Helian 10-08-06, 09:14 AM	Yeah, of course not. Just like you couldn't use Tiamat for the dragon comp, you couldn't use a unique entity.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-08-06, 02:23 PM	Hmmmm... I could submit Yarrax, the Pit Fiend Monk! Or Yadocesh, the six headed advanced pit fiend! Or... you know, these are all pit fiend entries aren't they? I think we have a problem with the fiends/celestials idea: Every entry would be a solar, a balor, or a pit fiend XD or maybe a Kluriarch. But they might not have the "Boards contribute the participants" thing again. UGH! This idea is horrible: what happens if we see the RETURN OF THE PALLYBUS?!? <runs screaming like a little girl>
Ossian 10-09-06, 03:10 AM	I always love the classics. Elves Vs Orcs. Two separate phases. FIrst one is Elves Vs Elves Second is Orcs Vs Orcs. First one selects the champion of the flowers whiffers/poetry writers/squirrel tamers Second one selects who is the green skinned baddest A** that will put the flower shop clerk back in his place. Tons of options, guys. O.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-09-06, 10:44 AM	Not a big fan of Elves v. Orcs myself. Feels too much like a throwback to Tolkien. I mean sure, just about everything is. But even so... Anyway elves and orcs is a wee bit narrow. Oh, I know: how about monstrous humanoids?
Balor von Balorvitch 10-10-06, 10:04 AM	Blood War Baatezu vs Tanar'Ri should be next! I would also love orcs vs elves, Gooooo Orcs!
TheyCallMeTomu 10-10-06, 12:36 PM	I repeat: let's stay away from the blood war, lest we experience the return of the pallybus. I still say monstrous humanoids. C'mon, Minotaurs need some luvin too! Or maybe Year of the Giants. After all, ogres and hill giants are classic DnD creatures, but when was the last time you say any of those behemoths get honors?
Balor von Balorvitch 10-10-06, 12:52 PM	I repeat: let's stay away from the blood war, lest we experience the return of the pallybus. Hmmm the Pally Bus wouldn't be involved in the blood war being LG. Seriously if i was a Tanar'Ri or a Baatezu i would stop the war just so i could kill her :rant: Die Pally Bus Die! Diiiiiiiiiieeeeeeee! :headexplo She insults me as a D&D player AND a Balor!
Sorcen_Anenooata 10-10-06, 01:24 PM	The Blood War competition has my vote. And to be more on topic, my vote is on Caululithrax. I wanted either Arcflare or the albino red to win originally but I'll settle for the vamp dragon. That other one isnt even a true dragon and monks arent my favorite class personally.
Balor von Balorvitch 10-10-06, 01:39 PM	:duel: Blood War works with the fiendish codex book and you could throw in Yugoloths and mercenarys (Like fiendish Gnolls for Yeenoghu) and have a battles of = cr and equals Succubi vs Erines, Balors vs Pit fiends, Marliths vs Gelugons (goood bye Gelugon :ayyyy!::coolcthul )
Watchdog_of_Hades 10-10-06, 06:35 PM	Tomu, you're afraid of the return of the "pallybus?" I'm sure that if I knew your reasons, I could create something for the next competition that you view as even more of an atrocity.
Balor von Balorvitch 10-10-06, 08:04 PM	Tomu, you're afraid of the return of the "pallybus?" I'm sure that if I knew your reasons, I could create something for the next competition that you view as even more of an atrocity. I would like to here of a beast that is worse then the Pally bus for one.
Watchdog_of_Hades 10-10-06, 09:14 PM	Sure thing. Why do you dislike Eludecia?
TheyCallMeTomu 10-10-06, 09:28 PM	I don't dislike Eludecia so much as I dislike the fact that she won. She's like Drizz't: a variant, and THAT'S her draw, not any actual character development. People vote for stuff that shouldn't (from a rules standpoint) exist. A succubus' alignment is always evil. Obviously, that's not true. I guess if she had the sanctified creature template I'd be more receptive, but still, it's just that it's blatently there to be anti-establishment. "Everything you know is wrong" Incidentally, there's much more ironic things than the pallybus. And admittedly, a paladin Balor would be even worse. Anyway, a Corrupted Blackguard Solar is sort of an entirely different story, because we all know that evil corrupts everything. But my understanding wasn't that the Pallybus was somehow overcome by the power of good and transformed, just that she was, you know, a paladin. As for things that are more ironic... a Shadow Master of Radiance? A Treant Blighter? I mean, Dragon Dragonslayer isn't ironic: it kills OTHER dragons. So it has to be something that isn't about killing itself, so much as it's something that is against its OWN philosophy. Hence the shadow master of radiance (Sacred Purifier wouldn't work as well, as destroying undead is the thing, and that just means it wants to destroy other undead. But Master of Radiance isn't about killing undead, it's about bringing light). Inevitable Wildmage; it is determined that things are undetermined. BOOYA! I'm on a roll! ... Dude. How about Law v. Chaos? No one ever gives the inevitables, the myconids, the since abandoned cube thingies, and the slaadi there chance. What about the Githyanki? What about the Githzerai? Law v. Chaos!
Sorcen_Anenooata 10-10-06, 09:45 PM	Without light there can be no shadows. Then again on a depper train of thought, there can be nothing without its opposite (that goes for law/chaos, good/evil, neutral/lack of neutrality, etc...). Also my favorite point to make, theres an exception to every rule, if one knows how and where to look.
Watchdog_of_Hades 10-10-06, 11:24 PM	The problem with Law vs. Chaos is that neither mean anything in - No! This is not going to degenerate into an alignment argument!
Lord_Canius 10-10-06, 11:46 PM	ALIGNMENT ARGUMENT! *points finger accusingly* I saw it, the thread degenerated. It needs to be cleansed, before the taint spreads to the entire board.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-11-06, 12:34 AM	Alignment means something, it just doesn't have much of an objective meaning. IT has some objective meaning: A character with lawful or chaos in their alignment registers as lawful or chaotic (respectively) and responds to spells and effects appropriately. A lawful character qualifies for the monk class, whereas a chaotic character qualifies for... well, other classes! Now, people argue about what law and chaos mean. To me, Lawful is a HORRIBLE term, because it has little to do with actual LAW. It has to do with having an overall view of favoring order to chaos. Law and Chaos are not directly opposed to one another, but Order and Chaos do.
Balor von Balorvitch 10-11-06, 09:12 AM	The Pally bus not only turned aganist its evil nature but it turned on its choatic nature. Belzebel only changed his good/evil part the pally bus did both. She has Vrock mount.... I have said it thousand times the Vrock is a true tanar'ri while a Succubus is a lesser tanar'ri. The Vrock should be the paladin and Elu should be the mount (take that what ever way you wish) The changing of Elu made no sense and reforces that only human looking demons deserve redemtion.
Watchdog_of_Hades 10-11-06, 10:05 AM	There probably is a bias as far as a correlation between humanoid shape and redemption goes.
Nelagend 10-11-06, 01:44 PM	The thing I REALLY want to see for the next Creature Competition is one where the votes aren't an auto-win... they just apply combat bonuses to the creature, and the creatures ACTUALLY DUKE IT OUT at equal CR. Gan the Rusty beating a spellwarped creature was the biggest load of bull**** I've seen in a long time, even beating a Black Mage > Kary result in a FF poll. :confused: :weep:
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 10-11-06, 02:12 PM	Let's not forget the 3rd way Eludecia broke from the norm. She, a succubus, a temptress that survives off of purely physical lusts, fell in love. This is what's important about her. Not that she became a Lawful Good paladin, but that she fell in love. Maybe it's because I'm a romantic, but this is why she deserved to win. And let's not forget the song potential. Every winner should have a perfectly fitting song. "Bring Me a Higher Love" On that note, go Korosagra! "Everybody was Kung-Fu Fighting!"
TheyCallMeTomu 10-11-06, 02:50 PM	The "Equal CR" thing doesn't really work though, because CR is EXTREMELY approximate. I mean, at it's core, you use CR to determine the threat of a creature relative to a party of adventurers. And even then it's kind of hogwash: adding class levels onto a creature supposedly increases its CR by 1/2 or 1 per class level ,but determining on the individual creature it may do no such thing. I mean, an Ooze with class levels is still an ooze: it has a near 0 AC, it's main attack is a slam with some acid damage... who cares if it's suddenly specialized in that slam to get +2 attack and +4 damage. It's still a frickin ooze! Oh sure its HP is upped more, but power attack'll still obliterate it's slimy form! It's a lot more complicated than that. I mean, really, you have to 'Even the odds" which isn't even about CR. But it's hard t odetermine what it IS about. Is it about energy types? Is it about attack bonuses v. AC? If you go by CR, then you have to realize that any one CR can have a HUGE deviation of power. After all, a 10th elvel character is theoretically CR 10, but there's a major difference between a 10th level wizard and a Wizard 5/Red Wizard 5. Or evne then, it's about spell selection. Anyway the end point is that there's really no reasonable way to level the playing field for a combat encounter. But don't assume that it is a combat encounter. If Gan won somehow, it's because he tricked his opponent into swallowing a Sphere of Annihilation or something. I think what we really want is some kind of thematic justification for the win.
Sorcen_Anenooata 10-11-06, 03:24 PM	Excellent point by TheyCallMeTomu, very true indeed. As for the justification, Why dont we get the creators of those dragons to roleplay a fight between them and show how the fight happened and end it with the results of the tournament. For example: Chessmaster vs Palsha. The creators, TheyCallMeTomu and Balor von Balorvitch respectively, would roleplay the encounter between the two dragons ending with Palsha being victorious. If the person that created one of the dragons does not wish to roleplay that dragon then perhaps they would give permission to someone else to roleplay it or if someone will be brave enough then they can just roleplay it anyway, although this does not do well for the original idea of the monster. This way the matches will seem more justified and easier to accept.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-11-06, 04:04 PM	By all means, by submitting our dragons to this contest, we pretty much gave WotC full right to use em however they want. As for chessmaster losing to Palsha, CURSE YOU AND YOUR LOW BLOW USAGE! I don't know, maybe Chessmaster's mom called and he had to stop playing and return home immediately to take care of her? Her name, of course, is checkers, with the father being Backgammon.
Balor von Balorvitch 10-11-06, 07:20 PM	By all means, by submitting our dragons to this contest, we pretty much gave WotC full right to use em however they want. As for chessmaster losing to Palsha, CURSE YOU AND YOUR LOW BLOW USAGE! I don't know, maybe Chessmaster's mom called and he had to stop playing and return home immediately to take care of her? Her name, of course, is checkers, with the father being Backgammon. Well Palsha 3:16 says he just kicked his a$$! * Palsha downs 2 beer
TheyCallMeTomu 10-11-06, 07:45 PM	Tch. If this were a REAL competition, Chessmaster woulda wiped the floor with that wannabe Samurai.
Balor von Balorvitch 10-12-06, 09:56 AM	Tch. If this were a REAL competition, Chessmaster woulda wiped the floor with that wannabe Samurai. ant-psionic field on Palshas head and chese master would lose.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-12-06, 12:20 PM	Oh really? If it's only on his head, then that just means Palsha can't cast spells, and perhaps he's immune to telepathic powers. But the rest of his body is totally open. And I should remind you that Chessmaster's main offense isn't even telepathic attacks, it's self-buffs and the melee capabilities that come with having two bite attacks.
Balor von Balorvitch 10-12-06, 01:08 PM	Oh really? If it's only on his head, then that just means Palsha can't cast spells, and perhaps he's immune to telepathic powers. But the rest of his body is totally open. And I should remind you that Chessmaster's main offense isn't even telepathic attacks, it's self-buffs and the melee capabilities that come with having two bite attacks. Anti Psionic field doesn't stop spells :D And if he bit and kept his head whithin 10 ft of both of cheese masters he could cast no psionics at all. 2 bites won't help with karmaic strike with a size C katana. AND i challenge you to duel on Open RPG, 2 weeks hence. Who wants to play ref? :duel:
TheyCallMeTomu 10-12-06, 01:16 PM	A.) Null Psionics field DOES prevent spells, depending on whether or not you use magic/psionics transparency; general DnD assumes Magic/psionic transparency rules, as non-transparency is a variant. B.) This point I realized was somewhat moot: a 10' radius actually covers most of a 20x20, which is about Palsha's facing. Still, Chessmaster could attack his corners with powers and effects ignoring the field. C.) Even Development doesn't really understand antimagic and null psionics field. The question of "if you're attacking with a reach weapon, do you get the attack and damage bonus if you're outside the field" is just one of the many reasons they don't like it, because they DON'T have clear and definitive answers. Regardless, at no point would Chessmaster have to attack anything inside the field. D.) Okay, so Palsha has a null psionics field. I guess that means Chessmaster can have an antimagic field. It works both ways, right? If you're not using magic/psionics transparency, then antimagic field wouldn't prevent any of chessmaster's protections from psionics, but would prevent the magic weapon bonus of a weapon wielded by Palsha, along with any other magical items that somehow get in the area of effect of the radius. I know you're just trying to be clever, but if you're going to be clever, get your facts straight. One of the things I dislike most is people who think they've got an insane superpowerful set up that's rules legitimate, but that isn't because theyh misread something.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-12-06, 01:17 PM	Duel on Open RPG? Hmmm... you'd have the homefield advantage ;P What are the terms? Edit: I should probably note that, in all fairness, I think *I* could make a Palsha build that would defeat Chessmaster, but it wouldn't have anything to do with his samurainess: it would simply deal with the exploitation of the wide variety of spells out there. That being said, the terms of the duel would have to include limitations on sourcebooks. For instance, if Chessmaster can draw upon the Expanded Psionics Handbook and Complete Psion, it seems like Palsha (who would have arcane spellcasting) would have an insane advantage if he was able to draw upon the Spell Compendium (which really incorporates about 20 or more sourcebooks worth of spells!) I'm certainly not going to say which spells I think would make Palsha able to defeat Chessmaster, but I know they're there. Suddenly this feels like a game of Magic the Gathering or something. Yeesh.
Balor von Balorvitch 10-12-06, 01:41 PM	Duel on Open RPG? Hmmm... you'd have the homefield advantage ;P What are the terms? Well we get someone to be the DM per say and we play it out like a D&D battle between 2 PCs. We play out in the outdoors (The sky would make alot of sense). We are both great wyrms and the CR increase from your 2 headedness along with any other add on I get to make up in samurai levels and 1 lv in Exotic weapons master. We both get equal money and have at it. Example: DM: Roll init Tomu: [1d20+4] 16 Balor: [1d20+8] 22 DM: Palshas frist Balor: I charge up hit Chess master by IF srike power attack +15 [1d20+18] 25 to hit IF [1d20+21] 32 thats + 10d6 so thats 3d8+30+10d6 (81 damage total) DM:OK Chess master Tomu:Empowered Mind Thrust [10d10x1.5] (180 damge save for none)
Balor von Balorvitch 10-12-06, 01:46 PM	.... For instance, if Chessmaster can draw upon the Expanded Psionics Handbook and Complete Psion, it seems like Palsha (who would have arcane spellcasting) would have an insane advantage if he was able to draw upon the Spell Compendium (which really incorporates about 20 or more sourcebooks worth of spells!) I'm certainly not going to say which spells I think would make Palsha able to defeat Chessmaster, but I know they're there. Suddenly this feels like a game of Magic the Gathering or something. Yeesh. Yes there is more arcane then psionics out there but thats D&D and if you want to prove you can win you have to atleast beat me in that. You were the one who wanted the monsters to show down melee still next time. Here is your chance to prove it.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-12-06, 01:48 PM	So let's see... Obviously we want the two dragons to be of equal "power." That's not the same thing as equal CR, of course. After all, adding 20 levels of Samurai onto Palsha ups his CR by 10, but so would adding 15 HD worth of dragon, and considering the 15 HD worth of dragon adds caster levels, natural armor, strength, etc, I strongly suspect that they're not the same power. Chessmaster's original conception has to deal with him having psionics instead of arcane spellcasting... so advancing his CR by HD also advances his manifesting levels. Now, since Chessmaster (as posted) is a fusion of two dragons using an "Improved Schism" effect (both of which are permanent), that means that for EL purposes, they're two different entities. So together, their EL should equal Palsha's CR. Since adding a second creature typically adds 2 to the CR, then each dragon's CR should be 2 lower than Palsha's. Of course, we also have the Multiheaded template to factor in, which is the hard part: individually, the dragons don't HAVE it. So I'm going to just rate the CR of the final Chessmaster as being 1 higher than normal. Thus, each dragon should have a CR of 3 lower than Chessmasters. So, the question of course becomes, what CR are we going to use, and how are we going to get there? At the bare minimum each of Chessmaster's Component Dragons should be capable of manifesting 8th level powers (15th level manifester). Now we have to agree where each dragon can draw feats from, how much money each dragon has to spend on magical items, where each dragon can get spells and psionics, and of course how to deal with Palsha's class levels (considering that Chessmaster doesn't need any, and if you just advance Chessmaster's HD to keep in touch with Palsha's increasing CR, it's an unfair advantage to chessmaster). Any ideas?
TheyCallMeTomu 10-12-06, 01:51 PM	Perhaps we should take this discussion elsewhere: it's getting wordy. Hey, Palsha isn't an Iaijutsu Master! You can have Iaijutsu Focus the skill if you want, but we established earlier that he's not an Iaijutsu Master. I even admitted that if he were, I probably would have agreed he shoulda won. You have AIM? MSN? Any IRC channels you go to? I'm not all too knowledgable about Open RPG, so I wouldn't know where to find you there...
TheyCallMeTomu 10-12-06, 11:13 PM	I did a CR approximately 36 build for Chessmaster and Arcflare. Arcflare's damage is just way too high with his bite attacks: even accounting for Chessmaster's DR 21/-, if Arcflare hit with all twelve bite attacks, both claws, and his tail slap, that's 377 damage a round! Interesting point, Arcflare's weakness was actually his twelve heads; his HP value is 1/12 its max per head, so if someone could deal 152 damage to it, one could actually sever a head. Chessmaster actually has a damage potential of around 220 damage per round, but that only takes out one head a round. In a drag out fight, Arcflare would simply win in melee. The breath weapon issue has already been dealt with; winning initiative pretty much guarantees Arcflare a win if Chessy doesn't have Mind Over Energy against that energy type. I won't reveal all of the tricks of the trade, since Palsha and I are gonna go at it... Interesting enough, the actual combat stats ARE similar to how the competition came down. I don't really think Palsha can defeat Chessmaster, but he'd have a better chance of defeating Arcflare than Chessmaster does.
Balor von Balorvitch 10-13-06, 09:35 AM	Interesting enough, the actual combat stats ARE similar to how the competition came down. I don't really think Palsha can defeat Chessmaster, but he'd have a better chance of defeating Arcflare than Chessmaster does. Hmmm did Watchdog PM you personally because where did Arc Flare come from???
TheyCallMeTomu 10-13-06, 11:39 AM	Oh, that. I was just curious how an extension of our duel would come down, so I made a 12 headed great wyrm red dragon and advanced twice in order to up its CR to the 36 that Palsha and Chessmaster are designed at. With these projected numbers, Arcflare certainly earns his CR 36: with an unparralleled raw damage output combined with spellcasting, this incarnation of Arcflare is certainly a doosy. Of course, if I was using the CR 26 Chessmaster (which is the bare minimum to work with), Arcflare would have to be reduced to somewhere along the Mature Adult level. His Breath weapon would still deal phenomenal damage (enough to destroy most any CR 26 opponent anyway, assuming it deals damage) but being limited to mature adult, Arcflare would possess only 9th level spellcasting, enough for only 4th level spells. Thus, while chessmaster loses much of his incredible manifesting strength, he at least still has 8th level powers (one per head, I think); it'd be a more even match. Of course, I don't know specifically how Arcflare would be built, seeing as how Watchdog made him, not me: I'm just using projections of a standard 12 headed red dragon at various levels of strength.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-13-06, 07:23 PM	BTW people, we're still lookin for someone to DM the duel between Chessmaster and Palsha (unless Balor has gotten someone without my knowledge). It's sounding like the DM'll have to make some pretty heavy rules decisions, possibly including (but not limited to) "Can you use the same metamagic/metapsionic feat on a spell/power more than once" and "What happens to someone attacking from outside an antimagic field against someone whose inside the antimagic field if the person outside the antimagic field has an eccletic array of powers" and "If someone has an antimagic field, but their space is bigger than the field, how does this affect spells and effects persistent upon them, their magical equipment (if any), and so on"
Watchdog_of_Hades 10-13-06, 09:52 PM	Yech. I'd volunteer, but I hate making decisions on ambiguous things. Any way I call it, half of the people involved will end up hating me.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-14-06, 10:37 AM	Balor thought you wouldn't be a good choice because as much as you dislike Chessmaster (or at least I've always held the posistion that Chessmaster could beat Arcflare, which I've since revoked after making an Arcflare build such as that he has 23rd level casting ability), you despise Palsha. We need someone neutral. We were thinkin Helian. Interestingly enough, Chessmaster's actual combat stats have little to nothing to do with Chess. I slapped on Detect Thoughts on him so he can read his opponents moves and that's 'bout it.
Sorcen_Anenooata 10-14-06, 11:23 AM	I'd volunteer to help but I'm not very well versed on RAW and the game mechanics and wouldnt be able to call the matches as well as you guys would need. I'm more focused on the roleplaying. I would like to see the match as it plays out so when you guys do it could you please post a link, I'm sure I'm not alone here.
Balor von Balorvitch 10-14-06, 11:23 AM	Also if we are to have a refree she must have intimate knowledge of psionics specifically the fusion power of Black and WHite (Orginal names eh) Oh and Watchdog if you care you can take a shot at Palsha when he wins. :schemes: Arc Flare is beatable there is no question.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-14-06, 11:38 AM	I actually decided to go through the board where everyone posted their dragons to get full original undiluted information. I realized that I posted a Tien Lung Drunken Master... Foda stole my second nomination! (No not really) We're working Chessmaster v. Palsha at CR 36: It seemed appropriate to give Palsha 20 samurai levels, and since he's a great Wyrm, that's +10 CR (since those levels don't grant the full +1 base attack, it'd be rediculous if each added +1 CR). Anyway, Chessmaster's Fusion isn't traditional. It's completely permanent, something that you can't do with the Incarnate power. In order to avoid the sticky situation of Chessmaster "de-fusing" I'm gonna say it's developed as per an Epic Power (and as thus is immune to an anti-magic field). It'd be interesting to see how the numbers change at various approximated CRs. I know that the higher the CR, the more powerful Arcflare becomes, because he gets improved attacks twelve times over. If it were a really low CR (below about 20), Arcflare actually starts hurting, as his breath weapon is weak enough it can be stopped by spells, and his bites are blocks by damage reduction! For maximum roleplayability, it's probably best of RPing anecdotes are withheld until AFTER the battle. So if Chessmaster used one big attack on Palsha as a "finishing blow" so to speak, you'd have the dragons simultaneously saying "Checkmate" and then a kooky DBZ style energy blast. you know, cause Palsha's got the Samurai Fanboys following him, in the stat version it only makes sense if he loses that way ;P Of course, Palsha probably would have sarcastically said Checkmate in the actual competition. And everyone would have groaned at the lame and predictable joke. anyway, back to reading the original submission boards for me: I've still got a handful of dragons to find the entries of.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-14-06, 11:42 AM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=566471&page=13 I'm rather sad Mr. Sparkling didn't make it into the nomination. Or Goopi. Though Goopi was even more of a spoof entry.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-14-06, 11:58 AM	BTW Watchdog: A 12 headed creature doesn't have seperate minds, so I don't think that the rules support Arcflare being able to have only 10 of his heads sleep at a time ;D Chessmaster's Schism is what would allow HIM to do something like that... Oh well. Back to reading!
TheyCallMeTomu 10-14-06, 12:00 PM	You know, as long as we're on the topic: If anyone wants to shuffle through the original submission boards and pick out dragons that they particuarly write, I'm sure we can all come to a weird duel arena with our favorite dragons. Just choose any you're interested in, whether they were nominated or whatever. But make sure they can be scaled down to a "reasonable" (less than 40) CR. Non Rahp, or whatever that spoof dragon was.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-14-06, 01:12 PM	Okily Dokily. Granted, I'm taking liberties with this, but here's the scoop: I've taken the original source material to determine "minimum CR" of each dragon. I've put a "Handicap" entry in order to describe how to limit or improve the dragon's CR. Gan the Rusty: Pseudodragon Wizard 13. Minimum CR of 13. Handicap: Adding Wizard levels can increase Gan's power, but since he's really not much more effective than a human wizard, he should likely be treated as a character with an ECL of his CR and gain starting gold to measure this. If given an epic CR, Gan can take Epic Spellcasting in order to develop truly epic illusions. Yarzsai-Korin: Spellwarped Great Wyrm Rust Dragon. Minimum CR 24 Handicap: The original entry posistions Mr. Korin as being a Great Wyrm, but against Gan he can be scaled down to have a reduction in CR. To make Korin tougher, he can have advanced HD. Rust Dragons do NOT get spellcasting abilities, which puts Yarzsai-Korin in a posistion of a severe handicap. Caululithrax: Vampiric Shadow Dragon (Adult+) Rogue 10/Lifedrinker 10. Minimum CR: 25 Handicap: Cauly boy can be advanced in age, or advanced in level (though the former is a much more benefictial increase per increase in CR). Since much of Caul's attack style is based on stealth, and half of his HD is class levels, it's not inappropriate for Caululithrax to have starting gear that focuses on his stealth abilities (Beyond what his hoard might sugguest) Silversheen: Celestial Great Blue. Minimum CR: 27 Handicap: Like any unleveled dragon, Silversheen can be aged or un-aged as necessary to meet the necessary CR. Unlike Korin, Silversheen has spellcasting, so advancing HD into the epic categories will grant Silversheen a great boost in power, whereas reducing Silversheens age category will result in a pretty substantual loss of versatility. Chessmaster: Well I'll be damned: I can't put a real value on my actual dragon. Chessmaster was said to be "an Egoist black dragon, and a telepath white dragon, fused together, but the fusion went wrong." That doesn't actually lend itself to RAW stats. In the CR 36 setup I used vs. Palsha, I simply had a two headed black dragon whose sorcerer levels were treated as Psion (Egoist) levels, and another two headed black dragon (but with white dragon immunities and spell-like abilities) whose sorcerer levels were treated as Psion (Telepath) levels. They then fused (normal fusion) permanently: the method for a permanent fusion isn't really covered. I figured the easiest explanation would be an epic power. The same goes for the Improved Schism effect. Putting a CR on this, the two dragons are each CR 24, so that's an EL 26 (CR 26) for minimum CR. An alternate (and more technically correct) interpretation would be for an ACTUAL White Dragon with 20 Telepath levels, and an ACTUAL Black dragon with 20 Egoist levels to fuse. But that begs the question of what happens when the multiheaded template is added on top of that? So, add Multiheaded template on the white and the black. This gives the dragons a CR of 35 or so, but with a lot more HD, and with sorcerer spellcasting (something which held the design I had for Chessmaster down). Handicap: Chessmaster is one of the few dragons which not only doesn't have an explicitly stated age category, but also doesn't NEED one (Caully has to be at least adult age). Chessmaster can be reduced to Wyrmling and still be functional, though the change in CR is highly erratic. Advancing Chessmaster's CR is also a bit problematic. If the CR 26 model is used, adding on psion levels adds to his CR on a 1 to 1 basis: both heads each gain +1 level in manifesting. This isn't as powerful as advancing in HD epically, but it a lot more balanced (considering he effectively gains two manifester levels). If using the base CR 36 build, Chessmaster actually only increases in CR by 1 for every 2 manifester levels, but since his CR is already extremely high, it's a bit irrelevant at that point. If using the base CR 36 build, advancing Chessmaster's HD becomes sort of irrelevant. Palsha: I'll let Balor determine Palsha. Officially as written, he was a Great Wyrm Samurai, which is a minimum CR of 26 (assuming only 1 level of Samurai). Handicap: Palsha's age category could be reduced. Arcflare: 12 headed Great Wyrm Red. Minimum CR: 33 Handicap: Holy bawowzers! Arcflare's breath weapon can take out an unprepared opponent instantaneously: barring energy immunity, there's simply no way to survive (well, that or evasion along with an incredible reflex save). Add to that Arcflare's own impressive arcane spellcasting abilities to remove buffs and bestow self buffs, and Arcflares unparraleled melee capabilities (well, I DID create Hecatonclawries, but he wasn't nominated. Heh), and the question becomes: Is there really a NEED for Arcflare to be more powerful? To make him CR 37 (closest to CR 36 I could get) to see whether or not he could beat Chessmaster (And I guess Palsha?) I just added two age categories, which upped his breath weapon damage even more. Reducing Arcflare's CR is actually kind of tricky: the BARE MINIMUM he can have is CR 20, because Arcflare has to be a young adult to be huge sized (and thus able to have all the heads he does). Reducing Arcflare's age category cripples him in some ways, but his huge HD means the save DC for his breath weapons will still be really high, so that's not too much of a problem. The big issue is that a young adult arcflare only has about 76 HP per head, so severing them is about twice as easy... that somehow doesn't seem right. I'll have to check my math. Ar'gth: Pseudodragon <?> Reaping Mauler. Minimum CR: 4 Handicap: Ar'gth needs at least 3 extra HD in order to even qualify for Reaping Mauler. And whatever those HD are are also what Argy's gonna have to take to go above a CR of about 8, because Reaping Mauler is a 5 level class. So Ar'Gth could be a fighter, a monk, a barbarian, or anything else that's decent in a grapple. If he goes epic, he definitely has to take Legendary Wrestler. Arilasadetonima: Silver Dragon Dracolich. Minimum CR: 7 Handicap: Technically, dracolich can be added to ANY dragon. Imposing the "Must be old" restriction makes Arila's CR a minimum of 23. Obviously, the only way to increase Arila's CR is to add age categories. Silvers of epic age categories get heavy spellcasting which can give an unfair advantage (vs someone like Gan), but it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Aragraftex: Pseudonatural Ancient Green dragon Sorcerer/Fleshwarper. Minimum CR: Not sure. Handicap (and explanation): First of all, I'm PRETTY sure there were specific caster levels for this dragon. Second of all, there are two pseudonatural templates, the lesser one (which can be found in Complete Mage) and the more powerful one (from the Epic level Handbook). Assuming 10 Fleshwarper levels and 1 sorcerer level, with the lesser Pseudonatural template, Aragraftex has a CR of 31 (or 32 depending on how you look at it). That's actually kind of pathetic considering his abilities. On the other hand, if you use the greater pseudonatural template, his CR soars up to 40 and his spell resistance is 215, he has a huge arsenal of tentacle attacks (including constitution drain) and he's generally just one heck of a mofo. Melee wise, I'm not sure I'd say Arcflare would win against him. But barring something to give him immunity to breath weapons, he'd still be schooled in that account. Reducing his CR is easy enough: lower his Fleshwarper levels. Raising it (why?!?) is as simple as adding on age categories, so as to boost his spellcasting levels. Lasserous: Grave Wyrm Dread Necromancer. Minimum CR: 45... ish? Handicap: Okay, Grave Wyrms are one trick ponies.Though possessing high spell resistance and good melee, they lack full spellcasting prowess, and don't have the defensive strength of dragons of anywhere NEAR that CR. Adding Dread Necromancer levels helps with versatility a little, but not a whole lot. In short, Lasserous fails against any of the other dragons that has Death Ward. There's not much that can be done to lower his CR (he's not based on age categories after all). You could, I guess, simply have him be an awakened Skeletal Grave Wyrm. This would lower his CR to about 23, and then you can add on 20 Dread Necromancer levels for +10 CR, leaving him CR 33. And he has the lich template (which he doesn't even qualify for), which makes one wonder how THAT'S going to work... Lasserous is just a problematic entity. Foda: Adult Gold Dragon Monk 10/Rogue 2/Drunken Master 10. Minimum CR: 27 Handicap: Foda's CR would be really low if it weren't for the fact that he has a lot of class levels. Obviously, Foda can be strengthened or weakened by changing his age category, as most dragons can, but he can also have additional levels in monk or drunken master. To be honest, the Drunken Master levels don't do him much good; the bonus he can get to strength just doesn't make up for the mental ability score penalties, and his +1d12 damage from using improvised weapons isn't that good for really large fighters... unless it scales with his size, in which case it's +4d6 if he's huge, +6d6 if he's gargantuan, and +8d6 if he's colossal. Which comes in handy. Kikkericquea: Insectile Black Dragon. Minimum CR: 4 Handicap: there was probably an age category listed, but I missed it. Kikk can be scaled by age category and that's about it. The Insectile template is really more thematic than anything, as it doesn't grant much in the way of special attacks or abilities that a Black Dragon wouldn't already have (though +4 dexterity is nice). Krystal Wind: Old Red Dragon. Minimum CR: 20 Handicap: Krystalwind can be increased or decreased in age category as necessary. It's pretty simply really. Rampart: Adult Bronze Dragon Fighter 1/Paladin 1/Vassal of Bahamut 1/Dragonslayer 1. Minimum CR: 17 Handicap: Interestingly enough, Ramparts magical item prevents him from gaining any benefit from aging, so increasing his CR is a matter of increasing his class levels. Paladin going to 2 is an obvious choice to buff his saves, whereas increasing levels in Vassal of Bahamut and Dragonslayer allows him to face off against the other dragons in the competition more effectively. Of course, this tactic might be considered corny by some. Also a point of note is that the Dragon slayer can add caster levels to Rampart, who has a relatively small amount of spellcasting prowess. Korosagra: Mountain Landwyrm Monk 10/Kensai 10. Min CR: 32 Handicap: It's hard to impose a handicap on Koro beyond simply reducing his class levels. At a bare minimum he should have 1 in monk and 1 in Kensai, which would give him a CR of 23. Increasing his CR is as simple as adding on class levels, probably to Kensai. And that's that! The specific stats for any given CR combo for any battle (whether it took place in the competition or not) can now be generated for anyone asking. The results of the battle are probably going to be given their own thread. Anyone have any requests?
Helian 10-14-06, 02:59 PM	Balor thought you wouldn't be a good choice because as much as you dislike Chessmaster (or at least I've always held the posistion that Chessmaster could beat Arcflare, which I've since revoked after making an Arcflare build such as that he has 23rd level casting ability), you despise Palsha. We need someone neutral. We were thinkin Helian. Hmm, although I am flattered at being considered for the tremendous honor of DMing this monumental clash, I fear my DMing skills are much too green for this epic battle. Furthermore, I don't have any of the Psionics books, and am really weak in this field. We (my playing group) never really delved into psionics even way back playing 2nd edition. (Some of us have been playing almost 20 years together)
TheyCallMeTomu 10-14-06, 04:15 PM	Blast. I have no intention of cheating or anything, it's simply that some things really are DM call. I know how *I* would call certain things, but I'm not allowed to make the calls, as that would be a conflict of interests. As far as I know, the only thing that's DM's call that's really reared its head is a boatload of stuff dealing with Antimagic field. It, Polymorph (and Metamorphosis to be fair) and animated shields are things that just slow down gameplay in DnD. But if those three things are out, then that's a major advantage on my side. Alas.
Balor von Balorvitch 10-14-06, 05:31 PM	Hmm, although I am flattered at being considered for the tremendous honor of DMing this monumental clash, I fear my DMing skills are much too green for this epic battle. Furthermore, I don't have any of the Psionics books, and am really weak in this field. We (my playing group) never really delved into psionics even way back playing 2nd edition. (Some of us have been playing almost 20 years together) Thats cool as my head still hurts from Tomus explation of Chess Master. (I think he was psionically attacking me over MSN) We do do need a refree because metagaming will be an issue (aka Chessy won't be firing off any mind thrusts while he knows i have a globe of invunrablity)
olostar 10-14-06, 05:42 PM	As a herald level, card-carrying member of the RPGA (and a DM of 25 years) I would be glad to offer my services as an impartial third party for any required adjudication. Just let me know!
TheyCallMeTomu 10-14-06, 05:43 PM	You're not going to tell me what spells you're casting unless I make a spellcraft check. and you're not going to tell me what spells you have active prior to battle either: If I wanna know, I'd have to somehow figure it out psionically (or just guess). And dude, I already told you: I DON'T INTEND ON USING MIND THRUST! Geeze. The chances of you failing the DC against Mindthrust is 5%, meaning that even if I did 25d10 damage on a failed save, the AVERAGE damage is 1.25d10: not exactly a high figure.
Watchdog_of_Hades 10-14-06, 05:49 PM	What's the whole deal with Mind Thrust?
TheyCallMeTomu 10-14-06, 07:38 PM	Well Olostar, I don't know if you're secretly an agent of the Balor! But I assume not. You've got my vote! As for Mind Thrust, it's a 1st level psionic power that deals 1d10 points of damage per power point expended in it (which is relatively a lot) all of which is non-elemental. But: 1.) as a 1st level power, it's vulnerable to all three Globes of Invulnerability 2.) Palsha's going to have Mind Blank active (or he's an IDIOT) so it's sort of irrelevant. 3.) Ignoring 1 and 2, he likely has a huge chance of succeding on his will save, whic hcompletely negates the damage of the power, meaning that it's a horrible idea anyway. So that's that.
Helian 10-15-06, 10:14 AM	Thats cool as my head still hurts from Tomus explation of Chess Master. (I think he was psionically attacking me over MSN) LOL! I think Tomu has been mind *"thrusting"* this message board from the get-go!!! *I'm sure all the kiddies can "insert" (oh geez.....) another word here.* LOL, I'm just kiddin' Tomu, I couldn't help myself.
Balor von Balorvitch 10-15-06, 10:34 AM	LOL! I think Tomu has been mind *"thrusting"* this message board from the get-go!!! *I'm sure all the kiddies can "insert" (oh geez.....) another word here.* LOL, I'm just kiddin' Tomu, I couldn't help myself. Oh and since my discusions with Tomu It seems that i overlooked a key point that would be sure way to kill a vampire, even a vampiric dragon *snicker snack! LOL As a herald level, card-carrying member of the RPGA (and a DM of 25 years) I would be glad to offer my services as an impartial third party for any required adjudication. Just let me know! Your hired! and thank you I warn you this is alot of psionics, ant magic fields, size C katana, and a whole lot of stuff i can't even think now LOL
TheyCallMeTomu 10-15-06, 12:40 PM	As for your BLATENT AND UTTERLY UNFAIR INSULTS... high five for innuendo dudes! WOOO! Get me another beer? No? Blah. Hey, is WotC gonna close down these boards after the competition is over? We'll have to relocate if we all run our own DnD fight club for the competitors of the third competition!
Helian 10-15-06, 03:14 PM	Oh and since my discusions with Tomu It seems that i overlooked a key point that would be sure way to kill a vampire, even a vampiric dragon Do tell, do tell......
TheyCallMeTomu 10-15-06, 03:19 PM	He's probably refering to his vorpal sword. After all, vampires are some of the few undead that can't survive without a head. Why do I suppose it's this? Because he was mentioning that Palsha's going to dual wield vorpal weapons against Chessmaster. Now, obviously, it's not fair for Chessmaster to specifically prepare against vorpal weapons... but I have no plans on doing that! Really, Vorpal + Two Weapon Fighting is a way to kill almost anything. It's only a natural 20 a-waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-15-06, 03:21 PM	I just realized his plan (if I got it right) doesn't work unless he dual wields slashing weapons. A wakizashi is a piercing weapon, and thus can't be vorpal. Obviously, he could just wield two katana normally. But part of our little competition was that each opponent onyl gets 1000 XP to spend on battle preparation and in battle spells and powers, and no equipment other than thematic aspects or things that are tied to the character's core can be used. For instance, Palsha's swords are part of his Samurai build, so he gets them. Chessmaster's Chessboard is part of his character description, so he gets that. But Palsha's Ancestral Daisho ability applies specifically to a katana and a wakizashi. So having two katana (for instance) wouldn't work.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-16-06, 02:13 PM	Of course, he could always try using a twinned Halt Undead spell and then using the equivalence of a coup de grace to slice his head off. Hey, why'd everyone stop answering? Is the topic suddenly dead?
Helian 10-16-06, 06:27 PM	Hmmm, no update yet on the winner.. I for one expect Caully to win by the margin of past victories, but who knows. Korosagra got way farther that I expected and by the skin of his teeth at that.
Helian 10-16-06, 07:58 PM	Really, Vorpal + Two Weapon Fighting is a way to kill almost anything. It's only a natural 20 a-waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. Well, not quite actually, its a natural 20 then a confirmed to hit roll must follow.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-16-06, 08:48 PM	Shhhh! that was my secret against Palsha! I figured he'd forget that he needs to also confirm on the critical threat (and I should remind everyone: Things that automatically confirm threats don't work with keen or vorpal)! Of course, that's all very pointless if Palsha's attack bonus is enough enough...
Quicksilver 10-16-06, 10:00 PM	Hey, why'd everyone stop answering? Is the topic suddenly dead? We're about to be told who won the competition. That sound you're not hearing is a hushed crowd before a big announcement. So Tomu, are you one of those people who talks loudly during an important announcement? Or at the movies? As far as who would win between your two defeated dragons, I don't care. They're already dead.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-16-06, 10:12 PM	Right, how witty of you. Save that the posts here don't prevent anyone from hearing the result. The suspense doesn't build up favorably just because people stop talking on the message board. And if you don't care, then don't reply to the topic: I wasn't *talking* to you, Mr. "I'm going to say something sarcastic and offensive just to sound super cool" <Ironic comment removed due to possibly being considered a blatent flame against someone, and thus having entire post removed> <says something sarcastic and offensive just to sound cool>
Ossian 10-17-06, 04:21 AM	Uh...well...ok... Sooooo, :D I could not find Taibo's stats after the 2nd battle royal (with cheese, it`s because of the metric system, you know), as I did with the succubus paladin Eleudecia, or Elucida, Eluluciedia, or whatever the name was. I am really looking forward to seeing BOTH the final competitors statted out. Well, yes, especially Calulululululululithrax, but also Korosagra. Besides, I feel like refreshing the poll page every 10 minutes. The dragon competition has been the on-line calendar of a quite memorable year for me and I devolped a kind of love for it. Respect. Ossian EDIT: of course it was in the FIGHT CLUB (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060224a)...
TheyCallMeTomu 10-17-06, 11:28 AM	Well, WotC may not stat out the dragons from this competition, largely because they weren't the ones who designed em. But I wouldn't be surprised if they at least made the attempt for Caully. Meanwhile, in the midst of Palsha and Chessmaster's stat battle, I agreed to do stats for all the dragons: even if WotC isn't going to have a massive dragon adventure/fight club, that doesn't mean we at the boards can't have our own.
Helian 10-17-06, 05:53 PM	COOOOOOOL, my fav won. I just liked the dark aspect of Caully over Koros. I'd rather rollplay Koros, but as an icon I prefer Caululithrax. Well, its over now and I am waiting for the next one... sheesh. So, what now? do I win anything? I didnt enter to gain prizes, but I didnt even get a PM from WOTC..... OOPS just got one from wotc bart.. sorry dude.. i needed to refresh for it to show.
Watchdog_of_Hades 10-17-06, 06:29 PM	There was never any doubt (Except against Arcflare. Darned samurai!). Congrats, Helian.
Nathan_Lazaret 10-17-06, 07:15 PM	Way to go Helian. Tell me does Caully have a taste for Rangers? If so I think I know a place where he might come in handy.;) Good job man. Peace Nate
olostar 10-17-06, 07:36 PM	Well done Helian, Dragonlord of Godsdwell, the first of his name, regent protector of the Fane of Scale and Wing, Flame and Tail.
Helian 10-17-06, 08:36 PM	Well, in my anticipation, I did forget to thank everyone who supported my dragons, and I must thank the others that openly questioned them as well. Balor, we had soem great debates, you are a worthy designer in your own right. Watchdog, your support of Caululithrax seemed infectious, thanks for that. (perhaps misplaced support, i.e demise ala Palsha) Olostar, you always had a witty retort or quote to share, Nathan, man you are a funny dude, Tomu, well, interesting fella for sure (no insult implied) And to all the other supporters of all the dragons, Thank you all for your interest in a little slice of our imaginations. Great Competition All!!!!!
Watchdog_of_Hades 10-17-06, 10:36 PM	This thread sure is a lot more lively now that the contest is over.
Lord_Canius 10-17-06, 10:57 PM	I wonder what the next competition is.... :plotting:
Ossian 10-18-06, 04:57 AM	Hail Helian! Good Job. :D Think about the new bodyguard that Calululithrax now has. Colossal Landwyrm Undead Monk. Wow, that rocks.... Ossian.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-18-06, 02:46 PM	What, I'm not a worthy designer too? :weep: Pah. Ingrates! <Goes into crotchidy old man mode> So, is anyone interested in the stats fight club, or is this gonna be just 'bout Palsha v. Chessmaster? And yes, I know quicksilver: You don't care. So don't answer.
Helian 10-18-06, 07:14 PM	Now now, Tomu You are a fine designer as well, its just that Palsha got a bit farther is all. I didn't mean any disrespect. On another note, I've been updated as to what I have won. As compensation for submitting stats and a Bio of one or both enteries, I was allowed to pick a few sourcebooks to add to my library. Pretty cool, and very generous of the WotC people. I would hereby like to thank all the members of WotC directly and indirectly involved in this competition. We seem to overlook them at times, and I stand up and say: "Well done WotC, well done"
Quicksilver 10-18-06, 07:45 PM	Congratulations again Helian. I'm particularly happy that Caululithrax won, I've always been a fan of Shadow Dragons and this one might find a place in my campaign as a behind the scenes mastermind. It was good of Wizards to give you a prize, especially since they didn't specify one at the start of the competition. It's small, but I'm glad you've gotten something. Now for the point of the post: The competition is over, but fresh in our minds. Assuming that there will be another creature competition, what should they do differently next time? I have a couple of suggestions: Tell people in a clear and unmistakeable way that they are only to write one paragraph, not a short story. I think we lost some good entries to the enthusiasm of some writers. Have a clear template e.g. Name, Monster Type and Templates, Description (1 paragraph). Have a ready answer for questions regarding Challenge Rating (CR) or what is allowed and what is not. Any other ideas? Speaking of ideas, what kind of theme should the next competition have?
RavinRay 10-18-06, 08:35 PM	Congratulations again Helian. I'm particularly happy that Caululithrax won, I've always been a fan of Shadow Dragons and this one might find a place in my campaign as a behind the scenes mastermind. How I wish my good archdragon sanctified shadow dragon made it. Ah well... Tell people in a clear and unmistakeable way that they are only to write one paragraph, not a short story. I think we lost some good entries to the enthusiasm of some writers. All that was need was to use the 120 sample dragons in the Draconomicon as example, most of them had concise descriptions. Speaking of ideas, what kind of theme should the next competition have? Deities?
TheyCallMeTomu 10-18-06, 08:39 PM	Huh. I'm flabbergasted: I figured WotC wouldn't reward you because then it would be YOU who won the competition, rather than your dragon. And people didn't vote for you, they voted for your dragon. I mean, Chessmaster didn't lose in the first round because people didn't like ME, he/she/it/undecided lost in the first round because people didn't like it (as much as Palsha anyway). As for next competition, I would sugguest WotC keep to a stricy "one nomination per submitter" policy: Both Koro and Caully should have been submitted, but once one was nominated, it seemed a bit off to have the other also be in the competition if there's an actual prize involved. Though I guess the nomination in and of itself was a competition. Oh, and next time, maybe they could have a consolation price? :D Anyway, I know everyone's all happy and whatnot, but I still say WotC kind of ignored the competition after the first round: a few rounds had NO description of the events, and it just seemed a bit low-energy. I think the entire thing should be hyped more next time around... Anyway, thanks Helian, for humoring an ol' Tomu:P I know that my submissions/ideas aren't anywhere near as good as I'd like to think they are, and I was mostly just making fun of myself (not mining for praise), but thanks. Heh. And darnit Balor, get Palsha ready so Chessmaster can kick his ass! It's not fair that you get an infinite amount of time to plan: you've got a lot more resources to choose from, so all the time you get is essentially an unfair advantage to Palsha!
TheyCallMeTomu 10-18-06, 08:45 PM	Deities? OMFG! Awesome idea! I mean, I know WotC doesn't tend to like epic, but that would be such a FANTASTIC idea. Not to mention I'd actually have an edge: I've had a villian deity that I've literally had for fantasy settings since I was five. He's a bit corny I'll admit, but it's *definitely* something I'd like to submit. But I can never agree upon a name. Since it's used normally in my own homemade universe, Deus isn't inappropriate, but in a more general setting it A.) Doesn't attract attention B.) Is corny and C.) A little bit arrogant (which actually goes hand in hand with the diety's image but I digress) Unfortunately, deities doesn't really work for a creature competition. When it comes to deities, you're no longer talking about combat even. A deity isn't about specific abilities, it's about teaching and concepts and posistion in the world. All this being said, a write up of a deity probably can't be contained within one small paragraph: certainly "Mars, God of War: Mars teaches that war is a thing with rules and strategy focusing on blah blah blah" could be a short soundbite, but if Wizards were to try a deities competition, they should probably devote some space on the site (which can be accessed by links, so that those who only want a short paragraph can only read a short paragraph) for the FULL write up. Even so, WotC might want to impose a number of words limitation.
Helian 10-18-06, 09:02 PM	Even so, WotC might want to impose a number of words limitation. Yes, this is a much better idea than one paragraph. When you stipulate one paragraph, you can have.... A\ a 5000 word run on paragraph B\ limitations to a good author (structure etc) On another note, Deus isnt a good idea in my opinion. People will think you are unimaginative and are simply swapping a letter from Zeus.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-19-06, 07:41 AM	Without realizing that it's latin. Heh. Yeah I know. I've always had difficulty naming the guy. He's been a foundation of my personal fantasy roleplaying/creative writing/whatever complex for years, but I can never get a name that's uniquely his. Add to that that his "trademark" is as common as a third eye, and at first glance it's not a very creative character.
Nathan_Lazaret 10-19-06, 08:38 AM	Tomu, I understand the struggle you are going through naming your Deity. I don't know if you thought of this but it may help. It works for me. Don't try to choose a name that encompasses what he is, but moreover create a world where what he does and is, becomes a product of his name. If you understand what I am trying to say. Zeus, Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama), Jesus, Lord Vader. Theses are all just names that have become semiotic through story and "action"... (for lack of a better word). I think if you choose to name your God "Lucky Strike" but used it consistently and created a iconic relation to the name in your fantasy world, it in time would begin to feel more right to you. Failing that, go to Chapters: grab a Tall Tazo Chai a good thesaurus a good dictionary a baby name book (often gives meanings in other languages) Then begin looking at character traits and flaws and distinguishing features. You'll know when you find it. Hope this helps. Nate;)
TheyCallMeTomu 10-19-06, 10:35 AM	Heh. I've certainly developed the world in which the deity fills his role. In fact, the deity is one of the most noteable characters of the story. I kind of wanted to turn the entire story into a console RPG or something. "Chronicles of the Third Eye." Kind of classic Final Fantasy, or Lunar the Silver Star like... To that end, Deus works: He's a deity who embraces power and ambition, so he's "up there" and taking the title of "god" is appropriate within the campaign world. If there were a deities competition, however, chances are that that backstory may not be fully availible.
Trill 10-19-06, 08:41 PM	at first glance it's not a very creative character. and at first glance "Deus" is not a very creative name - in fact calling your god "god" is pretty much the opposite of creative. Deus is not a name, it's a job description. Let me guess...is Deus omnipotent? How 'bout "Trioculon", now there's a name :rofl:
TheyCallMeTomu 10-19-06, 08:46 PM	No he is not omnipotent. I already told you I keep having trouble finding a name for the bastard, there's no need for you to make fun of me over it. The deity is a deity of power and ambition, who is the "Trademark" deity of the campaign setting, like one might call Mystra the trademark deity of the Forgotten Realms. No one complained when the godthingy in Xenogears was named Deus! Such a horrid double standard! :mad:
Watchdog_of_Hades 10-19-06, 09:09 PM	It's not a double standard. You're a big company, as opposed to the single computer nerd that wrote up Xenogears, so we have good reason to have higher expectations for you. Oh, wait...
TheyCallMeTomu 10-19-06, 10:59 PM	I'm not a Computer nerd: I can't even SPELL C++
Watchdog_of_Hades 10-20-06, 12:02 AM	I didn't say... well, actually, I guess that that was a logical interpretation. Didn't mean it. Sorry if I offended you or something.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-20-06, 12:15 AM	I was just kidding :P I'm not a computer nerd, persay, because I lack 1337 skills. The "I can't even SPELL C++" was a joke (seeing as how I had to spell C++ in order to say I can't spell C++) Hey Watchdog, you interested in a combat round, jus' like we're organizin between Palsha and Chessmaster? I did my own design for Arcflare, and really, he's virtually undefeatable. I know of one little way to beat em, but only if he's not properly prepared... Spells > Powers in terms of versatility. Powers can be rediculously powerful though.
OzyBurrfoot 10-20-06, 11:48 AM	Does Calululithrax have stats written up anywhere? Or is he just a shadow dragon with the vampiric dragon template? I forget, do shadow dragons have age categories, and if so, what is Calululithrax's? Excellent work Helian.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-20-06, 01:44 PM	Caulithax is a minimum age category of adult (and I think the original write up was Great wyrm) and has levels of Rogue 10/Lifedrinker 10 according to the post Helian made on the submissions boards. Yes shadow dragons have age categories. INCIDENTALLY! Korosagra could not become a Vampire Dragon, because he is not a dragon of "at least adult age category" as he has no age categories. so I think that leaves him as a vampire spawn.
OzyBurrfoot 10-20-06, 01:49 PM	Caulithax is a minimum age category of adult (and I think the original write up was Great wyrm) and has levels of Rogue 10/Lifedrinker 10 according to the post Helian made on the submissions boards. Yes shadow dragons have age categories. Did Helian do a full write up, or just specify his levels as you mentioned? I dont know where the submission board is to look and I'd rather not go through the trouble of making him fully up, if Helian has done it already.
Helian 10-20-06, 03:10 PM	I am doing the stats for both dragons right now, they will be submitted as per WotC request and they will post it soon. They are all but done, I actually am just going over them so there aren't any blatent errors. As for Korosagra, I think he would lose alot of power even if he could become a vamp dragon, as Kensai and Monk require Lawful alignment, and Vampires are "always Chaotic Evil"
TheyCallMeTomu 10-20-06, 04:08 PM	As I said, Koro can't be made into a vampire. There's an age category restriction on the Vampiric Dragon template. I've made up stats for Chessmaster, and Balor should be making stats for Palsha. I've had a few requests for stats for chessmaster: my earlier replies to those were outdated stats (They used Chessmaster as being something of a gestalt psion, and rather than being fused, he's just a two headed dragon that has the ability to act twice per round and has dual manifesting ability: much less powerful than this incarnation).
Helian 10-20-06, 05:42 PM	As I said "even if he could become" However, vampiric dragon? no I dont think so either, but vampire spawn is another matter......
TheyCallMeTomu 10-20-06, 05:50 PM	Oops. Sorry 'bout that Helian: I misread that. You at all interested in the dragon bouts that Balor and I are doin, or you just gonna leave WotC to handle that?
Helian 10-20-06, 07:46 PM	I seriously doubt I'd have time, or at least be able to commit. Family life allows me to jump on and off sporaticly. My son is a sports kid so I am all over the place. I get to play D&D once a month, twice if I am lucky.:mad:
TheyCallMeTomu 10-20-06, 09:47 PM	Sucks =/ You want someone to run Caully against the dragons after ye've submitted the stats (and WotC has undoubtedly used em in a Fight Club or something)?
TheyCallMeTomu 10-22-06, 09:18 PM	I suppose interest has waned to zip. Oh well. Maybe when the next creature competition comes around.
OzyBurrfoot 10-23-06, 02:21 AM	I am doing the stats for both dragons right now, they will be submitted as per WotC request and they will post it soon. They are all but done, I actually am just going over them so there aren't any blatent errors. Cool, I'll be looking forward to that. He's such a neat idea and I have all sorts of plans for using him in a all-dragon-PC game I want to run. He'll make the perfect BBEG for my game.
TheyCallMeTomu 10-27-06, 12:20 PM	Welp, I suppose the thread's done with. I had a dream about the next creature competition being about demons for some reason. Weird.
Helian 10-27-06, 07:46 PM	Well, I received my 3 new manuals today at work, and I gotta tell ya, I'm a bit sad its all offically over. Oh well, I guess I gotta brainstorm some other creature builds while we wait for the next one. Thanks again WotC!
TheyCallMeTomu 10-27-06, 11:20 PM	I seeeeeeeth with envy. CURSE YOU HELIAN! :weep:
Watchdog_of_Hades 10-28-06, 04:51 PM	You get free books? Awesome!
Helian 10-29-06, 09:43 AM	You get free books? Awesome! Yeah, pretty cool of them. WotC_Bart said as compensation for posting my dragons' stats, I can have some sourcebooks that I don't currently have in my library. I Chose, Fiendish codex 1: Hordes of the Abyss, Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords, and Complete Mage. I needed Complete Mage to "complete" that series, (or get up to date, whichever) and I chose the 2 others as they will add alot of flavour to our campaigns. WotC_Bart was pretty cool and was on the ball to get them to me ASAP. I was really happy about that.
Balor von Balorvitch 10-31-06, 01:36 PM	Heh sorry i could come on before Helian but i was moving and such. Congrats Caul prevailed! Still epic 2 weapon style make even your build vunreable to the snicker snack Tomu: Chessy is soo screwed! God bless psi magic transpercy :evillaugh We should set a time eh because i currently don't have the internet.
Helian 10-31-06, 02:46 PM	Well, I didn't choose any epic feats for either submission, as although you would need epic level PC's to fight any of them, being only 20 levels, I didnt view them as "epic", A dragon with 20 levels is "epic" to us, but to them would they think themselves as epic? I wonder. BTW, like my new custom avatar???
TheyCallMeTomu 10-31-06, 05:01 PM	Dragons of at least Old age category can select epic feats for their normal feat HD. Moreover, anything with an ECL 21 or higher is supposed to be able to take epic feats... that or 21 HD. It's kind of weird. I'll admit, Balor, that there's one other possible way of Palsha obtaining victory that I didn't really have a counter for (yet another rediculously overpowered feat combination). And besides, we need to speak with our DM in regards to how Magic/psionics transparency acts on a few things. Speaking of: You give me a time (Convert to GMT or EST), as I'm more than likely much more availible than you are. We'll also get in contact with our GM... who was it, Ossian?
Helian 11-01-06, 10:15 AM	Hey everyone, for those who are interested, Caululithrax's stats are posted now at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20061031x (under the candycorn.....ugh) I haven't had the time to remake Korosagra's into the new stat block form yet as my kids hockey keeps me busy, but I should have it submitted before the weekend for sure.
TheyCallMeTomu 11-13-06, 02:09 PM	At least the Candycorn died... Damnit Balor, get yer computer in line: I wanna get this thing done before the New Year and I'm going to be without internet starting December 20th!
TheyCallMeTomu 12-06-06, 12:05 PM	Bah. Well, I guess that's that. Balor's still claiming he'll ownzzor Chessmaster, but he hasn't been online at all for whatever reasons. I think it's fair to call for a default judgement in Chessmaster's favor at this point, but people have forgotten already, so NOBODY CARES! Oh well. There's always next year (maybe)