Creature's HD VS. Creature's Racial HD [Archive] - Wizards Community

Creature's HD VS. Creature's Racial HD [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Spike_Fightwicky
11-17-05, 01:10 PM Is there a difference? I assume there must be since the 2 different terms exist. For special abilities, it seems half the entries stat "Creature's Racial HD" and the rest "Creature's HD". Under the Supernatural Ability explanation (among others), it lists "Creature's HD" to determine DC of a saving throw, and under others (like Ability Drain), it lists "Creature's Racial HD". So as a rule of thumb, are we to assume they were just lazy and didn't enter the "Racial" into all the entries, or does it mean that some of the supernatural abilities continue to progress with Class levels?

Example: The Sea Hag's Horrific Appearance ability. It's a plain Supernatural effect, and under that description, the DC is (10 + 1/2 Creature's HD + ability modifier). So if I give this nasty lady 4 levels of Bard, does the DC increase by 2 since the Hag now has a Hit Dice of 7 instead of 3?
Minister_for_Moral_Truth
11-17-05, 01:27 PM The racial hit dice are the hit dice a creature has which are gained by dint of its race, hit dice as a general term refers to all dice.

For example:

Ogre: 4 racial hit dice, 4 hit dice, 0 class levels.
Ogre Fighter 2: 4 racial hit dice, 6 hit dice, 2 class levels.

In the case of the Sea Hag, the class levels you add do not increase the DC. If the ability used hit dice rather than racial hit dice, it would.
Darth_Azalin
11-17-05, 01:39 PM Example: The Sea Hag's Horrific Appearance ability. It's a plain Supernatural effect, and under that description, the DC is (10 + 1/2 Creature's HD + ability modifier). So if I give this nasty lady 4 levels of Bard, does the DC increase by 2 since the Hag now has a Hit Dice of 7 instead of 3?

Actually in 3.5 p. 144 of the MM it states you must make a dc 13 fortitude and the save dc is charmisa based
Spike_Fightwicky
11-17-05, 01:43 PM The racial hit dice are the hit dice a creature has which are gained by dint of its race, hit dice as a general term refers to all dice.

For example:

Ogre: 4 racial hit dice, 4 hit dice, 0 class levels.
Ogre Fighter 2: 4 racial hit dice, 6 hit dice, 2 class levels.

In the case of the Sea Hag, the class levels you add do not increase the DC. If the ability used hit dice rather than racial hit dice, it would.

But, the Sea hag doesn't specifically mention whether the ability uses Racial HD or Creature HD. All it says is that the DC is Charisma based.

So from what you said, and from the relevant SRD excerpt:
The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is 10 + 1/2 the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma).

Since it doesn't specify Racial HD, a Sea Hag 5th level bard will have 8 HD (3d8 Racial HD + 5d6 Bard class levels) and thus the saving throw of the ability will be 10 + (1/2*8) + 2 (Charisma bonus) = 16. Correct?
Darth_Azalin
11-17-05, 02:09 PM Correct
Spike_Fightwicky
11-17-05, 03:00 PM Good stuff!

Thanks for the replies everyone :D
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
11-17-05, 03:16 PM Since it doesn't specify Racial HD, a Sea Hag 5th level bard will have 8 HD (3d8 Racial HD + 5d6 Bard class levels) and thus the saving throw of the ability will be 10 + (1/2*8) + 2 (Charisma bonus) = 16. Correct?
No. Check the entry for Supernatural abilities in the back of the MM. Only Racial Hit Dice are used. You can also reverse-engineer certain creatures to come to the same conclusion.
Spike_Fightwicky
11-17-05, 03:25 PM No. Check the entry for Supernatural abilities in the back of the MM. Only Racial Hit Dice are used. You can also reverse-engineer certain creatures to come to the same conclusion.

The SRD entry that I quoted doesn't specify Racial Hit Dice. I don't have my MM in front of me so I'll have to look it up later. Do you have any examples of creatures in the MM that have both a Supernatural ability and Class levels? I couldn't find any....
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
11-17-05, 04:23 PM The SRD entry that I quoted doesn't specify Racial Hit Dice. I don't have my MM in front of me so I'll have to look it up later. Do you have any examples of creatures in the MM that have both a Supernatural ability and Class levels? I couldn't find any....
The Harpy Socut, or whatever it's called.
Spike_Fightwicky
11-17-05, 04:56 PM The Harpy Socut, or whatever it's called.

It's "Harpy Archer", but you seem to be 100% correct in your claim. 7 extra d10 hit dice, and the save DC went up by one point, and only because the Harpy's CHA score increased by 2 points.

I hope you're happy... You just ruined my ultimate Sea Hag idea :mad:
Minister_for_Moral_Truth
11-17-05, 08:51 PM Allways ready and willing to kill off other people's ideas, crushing their hopes beneath the adamantium will of the Imperium.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Spike_Fightwicky 11-17-05, 01:10 PM	Is there a difference? I assume there must be since the 2 different terms exist. For special abilities, it seems half the entries stat "Creature's Racial HD" and the rest "Creature's HD". Under the Supernatural Ability explanation (among others), it lists "Creature's HD" to determine DC of a saving throw, and under others (like Ability Drain), it lists "Creature's Racial HD". So as a rule of thumb, are we to assume they were just lazy and didn't enter the "Racial" into all the entries, or does it mean that some of the supernatural abilities continue to progress with Class levels? Example: The Sea Hag's Horrific Appearance ability. It's a plain Supernatural effect, and under that description, the DC is (10 + 1/2 Creature's HD + ability modifier). So if I give this nasty lady 4 levels of Bard, does the DC increase by 2 since the Hag now has a Hit Dice of 7 instead of 3?
Minister_for_Moral_Truth 11-17-05, 01:27 PM	The racial hit dice are the hit dice a creature has which are gained by dint of its race, hit dice as a general term refers to all dice. For example: Ogre: 4 racial hit dice, 4 hit dice, 0 class levels. Ogre Fighter 2: 4 racial hit dice, 6 hit dice, 2 class levels. In the case of the Sea Hag, the class levels you add do not increase the DC. If the ability used hit dice rather than racial hit dice, it would.
Darth_Azalin 11-17-05, 01:39 PM	Example: The Sea Hag's Horrific Appearance ability. It's a plain Supernatural effect, and under that description, the DC is (10 + 1/2 Creature's HD + ability modifier). So if I give this nasty lady 4 levels of Bard, does the DC increase by 2 since the Hag now has a Hit Dice of 7 instead of 3? Actually in 3.5 p. 144 of the MM it states you must make a dc 13 fortitude and the save dc is charmisa based
Spike_Fightwicky 11-17-05, 01:43 PM	The racial hit dice are the hit dice a creature has which are gained by dint of its race, hit dice as a general term refers to all dice. For example: Ogre: 4 racial hit dice, 4 hit dice, 0 class levels. Ogre Fighter 2: 4 racial hit dice, 6 hit dice, 2 class levels. In the case of the Sea Hag, the class levels you add do not increase the DC. If the ability used hit dice rather than racial hit dice, it would. But, the Sea hag doesn't specifically mention whether the ability uses Racial HD or Creature HD. All it says is that the DC is Charisma based. So from what you said, and from the relevant SRD excerpt: The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is 10 + 1/2 the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma). Since it doesn't specify Racial HD, a Sea Hag 5th level bard will have 8 HD (3d8 Racial HD + 5d6 Bard class levels) and thus the saving throw of the ability will be 10 + (1/2*8) + 2 (Charisma bonus) = 16. Correct?
Darth_Azalin 11-17-05, 02:09 PM	Correct
Spike_Fightwicky 11-17-05, 03:00 PM	Good stuff! Thanks for the replies everyone :D
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 11-17-05, 03:16 PM	Since it doesn't specify Racial HD, a Sea Hag 5th level bard will have 8 HD (3d8 Racial HD + 5d6 Bard class levels) and thus the saving throw of the ability will be 10 + (1/2*8) + 2 (Charisma bonus) = 16. Correct? No. Check the entry for Supernatural abilities in the back of the MM. Only Racial Hit Dice are used. You can also reverse-engineer certain creatures to come to the same conclusion.
Spike_Fightwicky 11-17-05, 03:25 PM	No. Check the entry for Supernatural abilities in the back of the MM. Only Racial Hit Dice are used. You can also reverse-engineer certain creatures to come to the same conclusion. The SRD entry that I quoted doesn't specify Racial Hit Dice. I don't have my MM in front of me so I'll have to look it up later. Do you have any examples of creatures in the MM that have both a Supernatural ability and Class levels? I couldn't find any....
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 11-17-05, 04:23 PM	The SRD entry that I quoted doesn't specify Racial Hit Dice. I don't have my MM in front of me so I'll have to look it up later. Do you have any examples of creatures in the MM that have both a Supernatural ability and Class levels? I couldn't find any.... The Harpy Socut, or whatever it's called.
Spike_Fightwicky 11-17-05, 04:56 PM	The Harpy Socut, or whatever it's called. It's "Harpy Archer", but you seem to be 100% correct in your claim. 7 extra d10 hit dice, and the save DC went up by one point, and only because the Harpy's CHA score increased by 2 points. I hope you're happy... You just ruined my ultimate Sea Hag idea :mad:
Minister_for_Moral_Truth 11-17-05, 08:51 PM	Allways ready and willing to kill off other people's ideas, crushing their hopes beneath the adamantium will of the Imperium.