Post/Author/DateTime	Post
M-bark 04-02-08, 04:44 PM	A while ago, I was trying to think of new ways to make creatures more powerful. I considered giving them d% for HD, or make their save progression even better than the "good" progression, but while that indeed would make them more powerful, it would be kinda generic. Although imagining the Terrasque with 48d% for HD or a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon with 41d% still seems like a nice thing to try sometime (FFXII Yiazmat anyone?). More recently, however, while I was going through the SRD and reading up on deities, I decided I would take my earlier ideas and focus on something new. I like the ideas of incorporating deities into a campaign, and not just as distantiated beings who are being worshipped and grant clerics their spells. I wanted deities to really be part of the world, as one can often see in myths. That, and I was kinda disappointed that the deities, as they were, were made that no low-level character could ever run into one. (Especially since in myths, low-level characters run into deities all the time.) So here you got the results: me trying to make "deity" into a creature type. It's a bit different from other creature types because I still tried to put in some of the divine abilities you can find in the SRD, but only the ones that apply to pretty much all the gods, and the ones that can be used in practise the easiest. Although it's set up in a manner that lower-level characters can encounter (lower-ranked/HD) deities more easily, you should by no means put a deity of 2 HD against a party of, say, level 6. They are still way more powerful than any party of a level equal to their HD. Deity Type: A deity is one of the most powerful beings in existence and the source of divine spells. They often possess multiple physical forms, but typically have one that is there favourite (such as the form of a dwarf for a god of forging or the form of a demon for a god of destruction). Features: A deity has the following features. -100-sided Hit Dice. -Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter). -Insane Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves. -Skill points equal to (10 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Traits: A deity possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). -Darkvision out to 120 feet. -Superior low-light vision (x4). -A deity is immune to polymorphing, petrification, form-altering abilities, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, sleep effects, stunning, poison, disease, death effects, disintegration. -A deity is immune to at least three types of energy. -For effects related to HD, a deity is always considered as having infinite HD. -A deity is never considered an extraplanar creature, and is thus not affected by spells and effects that banish them. -Teleport (Su): Any deity can use greater teleport, as the spell, at will (caster level 20th), except that it can only transport the creature itself and up to 100 pounds it carries. Familiars, animal companions, personal mounts or intelligent items can accompany the deity. -True Strike (Su): A deity always is under the effect of a true strike spell. -A deity has a number of spell-like abilities. Per 3 HD the deity has, it has one cleric domain associated with it, and he can cast all the spells of the domain at will at caster level 20th. -Unlike most other living creatures, a deity does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When a deity is slain, its soul/body is shattered. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work as normal on a deity. They still work, but rather than restoring the deity's soul to its body, the pieces of the deity's shattered soul are called back together again and reformed into a new body. Limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection also restore it to life. -Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. -Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. -Deities do not need to breathe, eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). What are insane saves? – Insane saves are like bad or good saves. Bad saves start at +0 at the first HD and go up by one every three. Good saves start at +2 and go up by one every two. Insane saves start at +5 and go up by one at every HD gained. Like this: HD Insane Fort/Ref/Will 1 +5 2 +6 3 +7 4 +8 5 +9 6 +10 7 +11 8 +12 9 +13 10 +14 11 +15 12 +16 13 +17 14 +18 15 +19 16 +20 17 +21 18 +22 19 +23 20 +24 Deities are typically really powerful, although they may look small or frail. For guidelines on physical ability scores of deities, refer to the abominations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm) table of ability scores. --------------------------------------- Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?
ToastedAmphibian 04-02-08, 08:38 PM	Dont you see a small problem with low HD gods? Save or dies. Many have instant kill effects based upon HD, many of which dont allow a save at all. Cloudkill, for example, auto kills all gods with 3 or fewer hd, and kills all gods with 6 or fewer hitdice atleast 1 in 20 times. Your dietes make specialized necromancers VERY happy, and melee fighter VERY sad :{
M-bark 04-03-08, 02:04 AM	Hm. I don't suppose that "save or die" spells fall into the category of "death effects"? If not, I could always include that they are immune to effects based on HD.
M-bark 04-03-08, 10:22 AM	Edited in a way to circumvent the "save or die" thing.
ArochanoX 04-03-08, 02:43 PM	Umm.. Isn't this inventing the wheel once again? There already is a "deity" "type", but it is instead called Divine Ranks (or DvR). Stuff of them can be found from the SRD and 3.0 book deities and demigods (or was it faiths and panthenons? I always mix up the two.). There also are 3rd party books concerning Divine Ranks atleast from Dicefreaks. And on the epic forum Divine Ranks have been discussed every now and then. It's not as powerful as yours, but it's more coherent and more throughoutly thought. But I'll comment your work too: Features: A deity has the following features. -100-sided Hit Dice. This is way over the top. Use something like 2d8 or 3d6 (d20) for the HD. -Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter). It's ok considering the +10 bonus from true strike. -Insane Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves. I don't like this. Just give them a flat bonus (+5 maybe). -Skill points equal to (10 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. That's ok with me. Traits: A deity possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). -Darkvision out to 120 feet. Not bad -Superior low-light vision (x4). Not bad either -A deity is immune to polymorphing, petrification, form-altering abilities, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, sleep effects, stunning, poison, disease, death effects, disintegration, electricity, cold, acid. Electricity, cold and acid... What unusual energy immunities. The list is almost identical to a DvR 1 immunities. -For effects related to HD, a deity is always considered as having infinite HD. This is very bad for balance. Just say it's considered to have 2x the HD it has. -A deity is never considered an extraplanar creature, and is thus not affected by spells and effects that banish them. Quite weird but ok. -Teleport (Su): Any deity can use greater teleport, as the spell, at will (caster level 20th), except that it can only transport the creature itself and up to 100 pounds it carries. Familiars, animal companions, personal mounts or intelligent items can accompany the deity. Not bad. -True Strike (Su): A deity always is under the effect of a true strike spell. +10 insight bonus on attack rolls is the same thing. -A deity has a number of spell-like abilities. Per 2 HD the deity has, it has one cleric domain associated with it, and he can cast all the spells of the domain at will at caster level 20th. Absolutely not. This is just too much. Like one domain +1 / 10 HD or so. Caster level = HD (the actual HD x2) -Unlike most other living creatures, a deity does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When a deity is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on a deity. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. Give it (native) subtype. Then it cannot be banished and can be resurrected and stuff. -Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. sure -Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. -Deities do not need to breathe, eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Cool This needs Spell resistance (New CR +10 maybe) and bonus on AC (+10 insight bonus maybe) And fire resistance.
M-bark 04-03-08, 03:14 PM	Umm.. Isn't this inventing the wheel once again? There already is a "deity" "type", but it is instead called Divine Ranks (or DvR). Stuff of them can be found from the SRD and 3.0 book deities and demigods (or was it faiths and panthenons? I always mix up the two.). There also are 3rd party books concerning Divine Ranks atleast from Dicefreaks. And on the epic forum Divine Ranks have been discussed every now and then. It's not as powerful as yours, but it's more coherent and more throughoutly thought. Oh, I know of those Divine Ranks. It's just that the way they are set up they are, IMO, a bit complicated, and made so that pre-epic characters can't even beat a demigod. And that was something I wanted to change. Plus, this opens up new ways, because the ways of becoming a deity now are different (that is, if I would make those). But I'll comment your work too: Features: A deity has the following features. This is way over the top. Use something like 2d8 or 3d6 (d20) for the HD. d20 might do, but I want gods to still be really tough and durable. Hence why I put d%. It's ok considering the +10 bonus from true strike. +20, actually. I don't like this. Just give them a flat bonus (+5 maybe). *shrug* I liked the idea. A flat bonus seemed a little too bland. - Electricity, cold and acid... What unusual energy immunities. The list is almost identical to a DvR 1 immunities. To be honest, it is identical. I didn't want them to be completely different. This is very bad for balance. Just say it's considered to have 2x the HD it has. But if I'd keep the HD at d% and not that, it'd be even worse for balance due to save or dies. Absolutely not. This is just too much. Like one domain +1 / 10 HD or so. Caster level = HD (the actual HD x2) This is a good suggestion, but only really considerable if I'd lower the HD size. And 1 Domain per 10 HD seems too far, IMO, at least if I'd keep the HD as is. Give it (native) subtype. Then it cannot be banished and can be resurrected and stuff. Well, most deities in official DnD are outsiders. Outsiders have a dual nature, too. But then again, I did give them that they are never extraplanar, so that would include the Prime Material, and they would kind-of be "natives" to all the planes (at least while visiting). I'll certainly take this one to heart. sure Cool This needs Spell resistance (New CR +10 maybe) and bonus on AC (+10 insight bonus maybe) And fire resistance. I'll think about how high the SR and FR need to be. SR something like 20+HD. Thanks for reviewing. :)
Waylanderx 04-03-08, 03:20 PM	1 word.........overpowered.....:D
M-bark 04-03-08, 03:24 PM	1 word.........overpowered.....:D That's just how deities are, my friend. You didn't think shouting bad words at Heironeous would get him to not totally kick your ass seven ways to the Abyss and back again, did you?
Kursk 04-03-08, 04:30 PM	I wanted deities to really be part of the world, as one can often see in myths. That, and I was kinda disappointed that the deities, as they were, were made that no low-level character could ever run into one. (Especially since in myths, low-level characters run into deities all the time.) Where does it say low level characters can't encounter a deity? Starting off with a false premise/problem won't get you to a workable solution.
Varl 04-03-08, 06:38 PM	That's just how deities are, my friend. You didn't think shouting bad words at Heironeous would get him to not totally kick your ass seven ways to the Abyss and back again, did you? Heh. The fact that assigning creature stats to deities in the first place implies you want the possibility for them to some day, some way, be killed by characters. Otherwise, why bother? Deities as glorified monsters are fine if that's how you like to see and use them, but simply killing a deity should have immensely greater implications to the game world overall than just how many XPs the characters get. Can you imagine how your character would be viewed by the world if they come to know that YOU were the one to slay their deity? What about the other deities? What if they didn't want X dead? Are you ready for THAT level of repercussion? Friends don't let friends fight deities, even if they can win. You mentioned earlier that you'd like for low level characters to have the possibility of "running into one". Define that please, because running into one can occur easily, if as DM you know what you're doing. There are instances in game products or lore where a deity has chosen to take mortal form and lived among them, often to test their faithful's loyalties and allegiances, and their feeble combat prowess should they insist. Even the most battle hardened, combat-loving deity (Tempus) isn't so stupid as to mercilessly slaughter the very people that give HIM power. Talk about chopping your foot off with your own axe!
ArochanoX 04-04-08, 12:23 AM	It's just that the way they are set up they are, IMO, a bit complicated, and made so that pre-epic characters can't even beat a demigod. And that was something I wanted to change. Technically Divine Ranks aren't any more complicated than this template. It is just written badly. Salient Divine abilities are cool and all the other neat stuff. Also why make every deity be as much deity? In many religions that believe there are multiple gods, there are gods of various powers and divine ranks. Quasideity is often considered a LA +6 template (Maybe +4 CR), so many pre-epic parties can definetely handle it. DvR 1-5 (Demigod ranks) are much better, but a party with average level of 16+ could handle one. In epic level handbook, there are presented 2 templates (paragon and pseudonatural) that work very similary to yours: "add an (easy) template to make a low-level critter a high-level critter without all the trouble of adding HD". I really think that a party whose level is below 15 should never be able to beat a demigod. Seriously. That demigod is worshipped and has a thorne in Divine playgrounds. Why should a party of snot-dripping greenies whose level is merely 15 be ever able to kill it? (Unless it has lost its divine ranks)
M-bark 04-04-08, 08:30 AM	Where does it say low level characters can't encounter a deity? Starting off with a false premise/problem won't get you to a workable solution. Oh, I know they can, but deities, even of rank 0, don't really look all that approachable to me. Low-level characters can encounter a deity, but since low-level characters often aren't very noticable, and with the numbers of the gods and their power and all, there doesn't seem to be much reason for a deity to come into contact with low-level characters. Heh. The fact that assigning creature stats to deities in the first place implies you want the possibility for them to some day, some way, be killed by characters. Otherwise, why bother? Not necessarily. Creatures are statted up even though they are not necessarily meant to be killed by the characters (as it was initially meant for the characters to be heroes and not kill off celestials and all, and now they have stats for those). Deities as glorified monsters are fine if that's how you like to see and use them, but simply killing a deity should have immensely greater implications to the game world overall than just how many XPs the characters get. Can you imagine how your character would be viewed by the world if they come to know that YOU were the one to slay their deity? What about the other deities? What if they didn't want X dead? Are you ready for THAT level of repercussion? Friends don't let friends fight deities, even if they can win. I think it opens up possibilities for roleplay. Deities are still not meant to be "weak" just more "approachable". There will still be implications and repurcussions to deity-slaying, especially if they have believers. You mentioned earlier that you'd like for low level characters to have the possibility of "running into one". Define that please, because running into one can occur easily, if as DM you know what you're doing. There are instances in game products or lore where a deity has chosen to take mortal form and lived among them, often to test their faithful's loyalties and allegiances, and their feeble combat prowess should they insist. Even the most battle hardened, combat-loving deity (Tempus) isn't so stupid as to mercilessly slaughter the very people that give HIM power. Talk about chopping your foot off with your own axe! The deities as they are are more like "big uber-powerful guys way far away on some Outer Plane who somehow have the power to control the world because we believe in them". I want believers to not be necessary for a deity to exist, but that more powerful deities would have more followers, so followers would come because you have power, not the other way around (although powerful deities still acquire followers more easily, this merely eliminates that deities need to have followers to have power). I wanted deities to exist without followers, and that there'd be more of them, but most of them more on a mortal level of power. Technically Divine Ranks aren't any more complicated than this template. It is just written badly. Salient Divine abilities are cool and all the other neat stuff. Also why make every deity be as much deity? In many religions that believe there are multiple gods, there are gods of various powers and divine ranks. Salient Divine Abilities are certainly cool, and if you would ever wish to use "deity" as a creature type and like the SDAs, I encourage you to use them. Quasideity is often considered a LA +6 template (Maybe +4 CR), so many pre-epic parties can definetely handle it. DvR 1-5 (Demigod ranks) are much better, but a party with average level of 16+ could handle one. In epic level handbook, there are presented 2 templates (paragon and pseudonatural) that work very similary to yours: "add an (easy) template to make a low-level critter a high-level critter without all the trouble of adding HD". Really now? Quasideity LA+6? I've never heard of that, despite you saying it is "often considered". Pre-Epic parties might be able to handle those, but have you forgotten that in the SRD it says that deities typically have 30-50 class levels? A bit above the level of pre-Epic characters, I'd think. I really think that a party whose level is below 15 should never be able to beat a demigod. Seriously. That demigod is worshipped and has a thorne in Divine playgrounds. Why should a party of snot-dripping greenies whose level is merely 15 be ever able to kill it? (Unless it has lost its divine ranks) It requires you to change your look on deities with changing deities from a special rank in power to a creature type. It's more like how it is in mythology: Herakles was a demigod (well, half-god in DnD terms), and he did not have any worshippers. Also, I've recently read an article in which the levels of power in DnD were analyzed. The most powerful characters in The Lord of The Rings, including the Wizards and probably Sauron as well, were not even level 15 characters. The Wizards and Sauron were kind of like demigods (god in Sauron's case) in mortal form. I wanted gods to be kinda like that: more involved with the Prime Material, walking the earth, and actively participating in the happenings that plague the world of mortals.
M-bark 04-07-08, 02:53 PM	I made some changes in the type: - Energy immunity is no longer set on electricity, acid and cold. - Deities can be raised or resurrected. - Domains are changed from 1 per 2 HD to 1 per 3 HD. This is so that all the core deities can be below 21 HD (the one with the most domains is Obad-hai with 6 domains, so he could have 18-20 HD).