Creature types and transformational classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Creature types and transformational classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Omega_Grey
06-01-07, 02:41 AM Okay, so I was bored a few months ago and was just flipping through my monster manual and came across the lich. Normally I would have just gazed upon it fondly and moved on but this time something made my mind wander again. What would happen if said lich was a level 11 sorcerer, and then said lich started taking levels in the dragon disciple prestige class, what would happen at level 10 in that prestige class? Would said lich gain the half-dragon template even though undead cant be given the template normally? Would his creature type then chage from undead to dragon? I myself am torn, I can see balancing points on both sides of the arguement and would appreciate any imput.

Also this question could apply to any other prestige class that changes creature types (Acolyte of the Skin, Greenstar Adept, etc).
snakeman830
06-01-07, 03:26 PM I personally would say yes to this. The classes also get around the template's LA, so why shouldn't they be able to be applied to normally illegal creatures?

Also, the Dragon disciple PrC does NOT say you have to be alive. It just says you can't already be a dragon. Since it doesn't sa otherwise, I'd say go for it.
Omega_Grey
06-01-07, 05:08 PM Yes I understand that all the Dragon Disciple PrC says is non-dragon, but the half-dragon template states it can only be added to a living coporeal creature. But I am willing to add the template to such a character, but there is still the problem of creature type. Is he now a dragon or an undead? I would assume that undead trumps everything except maybe an outsider but since it states that it is changed to dragon from whatever it was with no exceptions what do you think should happen?
Beefypistolsnipe
06-01-07, 07:14 PM I would say no for the same reason that a dragon zombie is an undead. Even though the zombie was a dragon before death, the fact that it is dead now prevents it from being anything but undead. The lich is still dead, no matter what other traits it aquires. So you can just fudge it and say that his immense power allows him to get new draconic abilities, otherwise the lich would have to be returned to life, or it simply could not take this PrC because there is no way to coax draconic power from dead blood.
El_Machinae
06-01-07, 08:06 PM Savage Species has a chart that show the 'priority' of Types. In that chart, a dragon could become undead, but an undead couldn't become a dragon.
Thomar_of_Uointer
06-01-07, 08:18 PM Savage Species has a chart that show the 'priority' of Types. In that chart, a dragon could become undead, but an undead couldn't become a dragon.

That's a decent variant.

By the RAW, you figure that sort of thing out based on the order in which you apply the templates or class features, which is also dependent on other things. Half-dragon is inherited, so it comes first, while lich is acquired, so it comes last. Otherwise, it's really up to the DM.
Metafictional
06-01-07, 08:21 PM The answer to this is in Savage Species, which tells you which racial type supersedes which other racial type, as follows:

Construct, Outsider, Undead: these three types supersede all others. Once a creature becomes a construct or undead, it cannot become anything else. Once a creature stops being a native of the Material Plane, it becomes an outsider and stays one.

Elemental, Ooze, Plant

Dragon, Humanoid (Shapechanger)

Fey, Giant

Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid

Animal, Humanoid, Vermin

Now mind you, while your TYPE cannot change, since a Half Dragon can be an undead, I think Dragon Disciple is ok. If a PLANT can be a Half-Dragon, well, come on!

So no, you cannot apply a Half-Dragon template to a vampire, but a Half-Dragon should be able to be a lich (would that be a Half-Dracolich, I wonder?).
Thomar_of_Uointer
06-01-07, 08:25 PM Waitaminnit... Isn't that from back when Shapechanger was still a type? Shapechanger is a subtype now, so Humanoid (Shapechanger) should be off of that list.
Metafictional
06-01-07, 08:31 PM That's Humanoid with the Shapechanger subtype. Savage Species is 3.5 compatible.
Omega_Grey
06-01-07, 08:45 PM Okay, I was aware of the type pyramid that exists in savage species but I was more of wondering what happens when two conflicting events change a base type. The lich starts out as a humanoid (as per the MM) and then gains the alienist class lets say, to get templates out. After advancing 10 levels in this class he turns into an outsider, or does he? Does he become an (augmented undead humanoid) outsider or does the lich template override the outsider transformation? If the only answer that we can come up with is use your best judgment then that is fine I will (this is all theoretical anyway) I was just wondering if there was an official ruling on that.
Thomar_of_Uointer
06-01-07, 09:17 PM That's Humanoid with the Shapechanger subtype. Savage Species is 3.5 compatible.

Looks like a holdover, I'd drop it.
El_Machinae
06-02-07, 05:10 PM Nothing official: it would be up to the DM if he wanted to apply templates in temporal order. Getting cured of undeadness by becoming a half-dragon is a neat idea.
ArcTan
06-03-07, 06:14 AM He becomes a Half-Dragon Lich identical to what he would've been had he started out as a Half-Dragon and then decided to become a Lich (or Dracolich).

It absolutely makes no sense to let this "resurrect" a Lich from Undeath.
Omega_Grey
06-03-07, 09:00 AM Please note that I never once thought that this would ever make him be alive again, I was just wondering if due to a technicality if he would change to a dragon (augmented undead humanoid).
Omega_Grey
06-01-07, 02:41 AM Okay, so I was bored a few months ago and was just flipping through my monster manual and came across the lich. Normally I would have just gazed upon it fondly and moved on but this time something made my mind wander again. What would happen if said lich was a level 11 sorcerer, and then said lich started taking levels in the dragon disciple prestige class, what would happen at level 10 in that prestige class? Would said lich gain the half-dragon template even though undead cant be given the template normally? Would his creature type then chage from undead to dragon? I myself am torn, I can see balancing points on both sides of the arguement and would appreciate any imput.

Also this question could apply to any other prestige class that changes creature types (Acolyte of the Skin, Greenstar Adept, etc).
snakeman830
06-01-07, 03:26 PM I personally would say yes to this. The classes also get around the template's LA, so why shouldn't they be able to be applied to normally illegal creatures?

Also, the Dragon disciple PrC does NOT say you have to be alive. It just says you can't already be a dragon. Since it doesn't sa otherwise, I'd say go for it.
Omega_Grey
06-01-07, 05:08 PM Yes I understand that all the Dragon Disciple PrC says is non-dragon, but the half-dragon template states it can only be added to a living coporeal creature. But I am willing to add the template to such a character, but there is still the problem of creature type. Is he now a dragon or an undead? I would assume that undead trumps everything except maybe an outsider but since it states that it is changed to dragon from whatever it was with no exceptions what do you think should happen?
Beefypistolsnipe
06-01-07, 07:14 PM I would say no for the same reason that a dragon zombie is an undead. Even though the zombie was a dragon before death, the fact that it is dead now prevents it from being anything but undead. The lich is still dead, no matter what other traits it aquires. So you can just fudge it and say that his immense power allows him to get new draconic abilities, otherwise the lich would have to be returned to life, or it simply could not take this PrC because there is no way to coax draconic power from dead blood.
El_Machinae
06-01-07, 08:06 PM Savage Species has a chart that show the 'priority' of Types. In that chart, a dragon could become undead, but an undead couldn't become a dragon.
Thomar_of_Uointer
06-01-07, 08:18 PM Savage Species has a chart that show the 'priority' of Types. In that chart, a dragon could become undead, but an undead couldn't become a dragon.

That's a decent variant.

By the RAW, you figure that sort of thing out based on the order in which you apply the templates or class features, which is also dependent on other things. Half-dragon is inherited, so it comes first, while lich is acquired, so it comes last. Otherwise, it's really up to the DM.
Metafictional
06-01-07, 08:21 PM The answer to this is in Savage Species, which tells you which racial type supersedes which other racial type, as follows:

Construct, Outsider, Undead: these three types supersede all others. Once a creature becomes a construct or undead, it cannot become anything else. Once a creature stops being a native of the Material Plane, it becomes an outsider and stays one.

Elemental, Ooze, Plant

Dragon, Humanoid (Shapechanger)

Fey, Giant

Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid

Animal, Humanoid, Vermin

Now mind you, while your TYPE cannot change, since a Half Dragon can be an undead, I think Dragon Disciple is ok. If a PLANT can be a Half-Dragon, well, come on!

So no, you cannot apply a Half-Dragon template to a vampire, but a Half-Dragon should be able to be a lich (would that be a Half-Dracolich, I wonder?).
Thomar_of_Uointer
06-01-07, 08:25 PM Waitaminnit... Isn't that from back when Shapechanger was still a type? Shapechanger is a subtype now, so Humanoid (Shapechanger) should be off of that list.
Metafictional
06-01-07, 08:31 PM That's Humanoid with the Shapechanger subtype. Savage Species is 3.5 compatible.
Omega_Grey
06-01-07, 08:45 PM Okay, I was aware of the type pyramid that exists in savage species but I was more of wondering what happens when two conflicting events change a base type. The lich starts out as a humanoid (as per the MM) and then gains the alienist class lets say, to get templates out. After advancing 10 levels in this class he turns into an outsider, or does he? Does he become an (augmented undead humanoid) outsider or does the lich template override the outsider transformation? If the only answer that we can come up with is use your best judgment then that is fine I will (this is all theoretical anyway) I was just wondering if there was an official ruling on that.
Thomar_of_Uointer
06-01-07, 09:17 PM That's Humanoid with the Shapechanger subtype. Savage Species is 3.5 compatible.

Looks like a holdover, I'd drop it.
El_Machinae
06-02-07, 05:10 PM Nothing official: it would be up to the DM if he wanted to apply templates in temporal order. Getting cured of undeadness by becoming a half-dragon is a neat idea.
ArcTan
06-03-07, 06:14 AM He becomes a Half-Dragon Lich identical to what he would've been had he started out as a Half-Dragon and then decided to become a Lich (or Dracolich).

It absolutely makes no sense to let this "resurrect" a Lich from Undeath.
Omega_Grey
06-03-07, 09:00 AM Please note that I never once thought that this would ever make him be alive again, I was just wondering if due to a technicality if he would change to a dragon (augmented undead humanoid).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Omega_Grey 06-01-07, 02:41 AM	Okay, so I was bored a few months ago and was just flipping through my monster manual and came across the lich. Normally I would have just gazed upon it fondly and moved on but this time something made my mind wander again. What would happen if said lich was a level 11 sorcerer, and then said lich started taking levels in the dragon disciple prestige class, what would happen at level 10 in that prestige class? Would said lich gain the half-dragon template even though undead cant be given the template normally? Would his creature type then chage from undead to dragon? I myself am torn, I can see balancing points on both sides of the arguement and would appreciate any imput. Also this question could apply to any other prestige class that changes creature types (Acolyte of the Skin, Greenstar Adept, etc).
snakeman830 06-01-07, 03:26 PM	I personally would say yes to this. The classes also get around the template's LA, so why shouldn't they be able to be applied to normally illegal creatures? Also, the Dragon disciple PrC does NOT say you have to be alive. It just says you can't already be a dragon. Since it doesn't sa otherwise, I'd say go for it.
Omega_Grey 06-01-07, 05:08 PM	Yes I understand that all the Dragon Disciple PrC says is non-dragon, but the half-dragon template states it can only be added to a living coporeal creature. But I am willing to add the template to such a character, but there is still the problem of creature type. Is he now a dragon or an undead? I would assume that undead trumps everything except maybe an outsider but since it states that it is changed to dragon from whatever it was with no exceptions what do you think should happen?
Beefypistolsnipe 06-01-07, 07:14 PM	I would say no for the same reason that a dragon zombie is an undead. Even though the zombie was a dragon before death, the fact that it is dead now prevents it from being anything but undead. The lich is still dead, no matter what other traits it aquires. So you can just fudge it and say that his immense power allows him to get new draconic abilities, otherwise the lich would have to be returned to life, or it simply could not take this PrC because there is no way to coax draconic power from dead blood.
El_Machinae 06-01-07, 08:06 PM	Savage Species has a chart that show the 'priority' of Types. In that chart, a dragon could become undead, but an undead couldn't become a dragon.
Thomar_of_Uointer 06-01-07, 08:18 PM	Savage Species has a chart that show the 'priority' of Types. In that chart, a dragon could become undead, but an undead couldn't become a dragon. That's a decent variant. By the RAW, you figure that sort of thing out based on the order in which you apply the templates or class features, which is also dependent on other things. Half-dragon is inherited, so it comes first, while lich is acquired, so it comes last. Otherwise, it's really up to the DM.
Metafictional 06-01-07, 08:21 PM	The answer to this is in Savage Species, which tells you which racial type supersedes which other racial type, as follows: Construct, Outsider, Undead: these three types supersede all others. Once a creature becomes a construct or undead, it cannot become anything else. Once a creature stops being a native of the Material Plane, it becomes an outsider and stays one. Elemental, Ooze, Plant Dragon, Humanoid (Shapechanger) Fey, Giant Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid Animal, Humanoid, Vermin Now mind you, while your TYPE cannot change, since a Half Dragon can be an undead, I think Dragon Disciple is ok. If a PLANT can be a Half-Dragon, well, come on! So no, you cannot apply a Half-Dragon template to a vampire, but a Half-Dragon should be able to be a lich (would that be a Half-Dracolich, I wonder?).
Thomar_of_Uointer 06-01-07, 08:25 PM	Waitaminnit... Isn't that from back when Shapechanger was still a type? Shapechanger is a subtype now, so Humanoid (Shapechanger) should be off of that list.
Metafictional 06-01-07, 08:31 PM	That's Humanoid with the Shapechanger subtype. Savage Species is 3.5 compatible.
Omega_Grey 06-01-07, 08:45 PM	Okay, I was aware of the type pyramid that exists in savage species but I was more of wondering what happens when two conflicting events change a base type. The lich starts out as a humanoid (as per the MM) and then gains the alienist class lets say, to get templates out. After advancing 10 levels in this class he turns into an outsider, or does he? Does he become an (augmented undead humanoid) outsider or does the lich template override the outsider transformation? If the only answer that we can come up with is use your best judgment then that is fine I will (this is all theoretical anyway) I was just wondering if there was an official ruling on that.
Thomar_of_Uointer 06-01-07, 09:17 PM	That's Humanoid with the Shapechanger subtype. Savage Species is 3.5 compatible. Looks like a holdover, I'd drop it.
El_Machinae 06-02-07, 05:10 PM	Nothing official: it would be up to the DM if he wanted to apply templates in temporal order. Getting cured of undeadness by becoming a half-dragon is a neat idea.
ArcTan 06-03-07, 06:14 AM	He becomes a Half-Dragon Lich identical to what he would've been had he started out as a Half-Dragon and then decided to become a Lich (or Dracolich). It absolutely makes no sense to let this "resurrect" a Lich from Undeath.
Omega_Grey 06-03-07, 09:00 AM	Please note that I never once thought that this would ever make him be alive again, I was just wondering if due to a technicality if he would change to a dragon (augmented undead humanoid).
Omega_Grey 06-01-07, 02:41 AM	Okay, so I was bored a few months ago and was just flipping through my monster manual and came across the lich. Normally I would have just gazed upon it fondly and moved on but this time something made my mind wander again. What would happen if said lich was a level 11 sorcerer, and then said lich started taking levels in the dragon disciple prestige class, what would happen at level 10 in that prestige class? Would said lich gain the half-dragon template even though undead cant be given the template normally? Would his creature type then chage from undead to dragon? I myself am torn, I can see balancing points on both sides of the arguement and would appreciate any imput. Also this question could apply to any other prestige class that changes creature types (Acolyte of the Skin, Greenstar Adept, etc).
snakeman830 06-01-07, 03:26 PM	I personally would say yes to this. The classes also get around the template's LA, so why shouldn't they be able to be applied to normally illegal creatures? Also, the Dragon disciple PrC does NOT say you have to be alive. It just says you can't already be a dragon. Since it doesn't sa otherwise, I'd say go for it.
Omega_Grey 06-01-07, 05:08 PM	Yes I understand that all the Dragon Disciple PrC says is non-dragon, but the half-dragon template states it can only be added to a living coporeal creature. But I am willing to add the template to such a character, but there is still the problem of creature type. Is he now a dragon or an undead? I would assume that undead trumps everything except maybe an outsider but since it states that it is changed to dragon from whatever it was with no exceptions what do you think should happen?
Beefypistolsnipe 06-01-07, 07:14 PM	I would say no for the same reason that a dragon zombie is an undead. Even though the zombie was a dragon before death, the fact that it is dead now prevents it from being anything but undead. The lich is still dead, no matter what other traits it aquires. So you can just fudge it and say that his immense power allows him to get new draconic abilities, otherwise the lich would have to be returned to life, or it simply could not take this PrC because there is no way to coax draconic power from dead blood.
El_Machinae 06-01-07, 08:06 PM	Savage Species has a chart that show the 'priority' of Types. In that chart, a dragon could become undead, but an undead couldn't become a dragon.
Thomar_of_Uointer 06-01-07, 08:18 PM	Savage Species has a chart that show the 'priority' of Types. In that chart, a dragon could become undead, but an undead couldn't become a dragon. That's a decent variant. By the RAW, you figure that sort of thing out based on the order in which you apply the templates or class features, which is also dependent on other things. Half-dragon is inherited, so it comes first, while lich is acquired, so it comes last. Otherwise, it's really up to the DM.
Metafictional 06-01-07, 08:21 PM	The answer to this is in Savage Species, which tells you which racial type supersedes which other racial type, as follows: Construct, Outsider, Undead: these three types supersede all others. Once a creature becomes a construct or undead, it cannot become anything else. Once a creature stops being a native of the Material Plane, it becomes an outsider and stays one. Elemental, Ooze, Plant Dragon, Humanoid (Shapechanger) Fey, Giant Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid Animal, Humanoid, Vermin Now mind you, while your TYPE cannot change, since a Half Dragon can be an undead, I think Dragon Disciple is ok. If a PLANT can be a Half-Dragon, well, come on! So no, you cannot apply a Half-Dragon template to a vampire, but a Half-Dragon should be able to be a lich (would that be a Half-Dracolich, I wonder?).
Thomar_of_Uointer 06-01-07, 08:25 PM	Waitaminnit... Isn't that from back when Shapechanger was still a type? Shapechanger is a subtype now, so Humanoid (Shapechanger) should be off of that list.
Metafictional 06-01-07, 08:31 PM	That's Humanoid with the Shapechanger subtype. Savage Species is 3.5 compatible.
Omega_Grey 06-01-07, 08:45 PM	Okay, I was aware of the type pyramid that exists in savage species but I was more of wondering what happens when two conflicting events change a base type. The lich starts out as a humanoid (as per the MM) and then gains the alienist class lets say, to get templates out. After advancing 10 levels in this class he turns into an outsider, or does he? Does he become an (augmented undead humanoid) outsider or does the lich template override the outsider transformation? If the only answer that we can come up with is use your best judgment then that is fine I will (this is all theoretical anyway) I was just wondering if there was an official ruling on that.
Thomar_of_Uointer 06-01-07, 09:17 PM	That's Humanoid with the Shapechanger subtype. Savage Species is 3.5 compatible. Looks like a holdover, I'd drop it.
El_Machinae 06-02-07, 05:10 PM	Nothing official: it would be up to the DM if he wanted to apply templates in temporal order. Getting cured of undeadness by becoming a half-dragon is a neat idea.
ArcTan 06-03-07, 06:14 AM	He becomes a Half-Dragon Lich identical to what he would've been had he started out as a Half-Dragon and then decided to become a Lich (or Dracolich). It absolutely makes no sense to let this "resurrect" a Lich from Undeath.
Omega_Grey 06-03-07, 09:00 AM	Please note that I never once thought that this would ever make him be alive again, I was just wondering if due to a technicality if he would change to a dragon (augmented undead humanoid).