Creatures and Improved Sundering [Archive] - Wizards Community

Creatures and Improved Sundering [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
The Nelluonkkar
06-25-04, 03:39 PM A situation that has come up in a recent session concerns creatures in 3.5 with Improved Sundering and a 3.0 rule that remains in effect in 3.5. As per p. 222 of the 3.5 DMG (and also listed in the SRD in the Magic Items II .rtf) under Hardness and Hit Points: "An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his own weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon or shield struck".

I missed the session where a sunder-happy titan with a maul of the titans was wiping out a partymember's weapons or I would have pointed out this rule to the DM. The maul of the titans is treated as a +3 greatclub. The PC's +1 longsword would still have been thoroughly trashed but the +5 defender should have been fine.

Getting around to the reason why I posted this here rather than any of the subforums listed under the DMG section, when I informed the DM about this often overlooked rule, he was rather displeased and asked why creatures would have Improved Sunder in the first place. He proceeded to whip up an odd house rule whereby a creature's DR/3 yields the effective enhancement bonus that it counts as for the purposes of sundering items (this is regardless of the type of DR so alignment-based DR applies just as readily as magic-based or material-based DR). That's his call as the DM and he believed that creatures should have a way of sundering the weapons and shields of PCs with their natural weapons. Oddly enough, he has extended this ability to manufactured weapons wielded by monsters (likely looking towards the extension of alignment subtypes to overcome DR even with manufactured weapons as per p. 308 of the 3.5 MM and again listed in the SRD). Reading through the section again, I noticed that creatures with magic-based DR do not extend their ability to override magic-based DR to manufactured weapons and I believe this to be a closer analogue to sundering items.

My question is, is there an official ruling anywhere on this? I'd be interested to hear what it might be as I could not find a reference as to how creatures are supposed to sunder magical weapons and armour in any of the core rulebooks.
UZI
06-26-04, 08:02 AM The errata fixes sundering. You no longer need an equal or greater enhancement bonus. Also, they clarified the inconsistency in how much additional hardness and HP each + of enhancement bonus adds to a weapon or shield.
The Nelluonkkar
06-26-04, 08:47 AM Thanks for taking the time to answer the question. I've been looking around for one for a while and I completely forgot to check the errata. Being able to sunder an epic weapon with a non-magical weapon seems a little odd but so be it.
Ogre4Hire
06-26-04, 12:09 PM It's possible to sunder a Holy Avenger with a non-magical club, but it'd be damned hard to pull it of. In the 3.5 switch, magic weapons now gain +2 Hardness and +10 HP per +1 enhancement, instead of the +1/+2 from 3.0. This means that typically, only large, powerful creatures like Giants and Titans will be able to sunder a PC's weapon.

Also, Adamantine Weapons now ignore the Hardness of any object that has a Hardness of less than 20 (see the DMG for more details).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Nelluonkkar 06-25-04, 03:39 PM	A situation that has come up in a recent session concerns creatures in 3.5 with Improved Sundering and a 3.0 rule that remains in effect in 3.5. As per p. 222 of the 3.5 DMG (and also listed in the SRD in the Magic Items II .rtf) under Hardness and Hit Points: "An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his own weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon or shield struck". I missed the session where a sunder-happy titan with a maul of the titans was wiping out a partymember's weapons or I would have pointed out this rule to the DM. The maul of the titans is treated as a +3 greatclub. The PC's +1 longsword would still have been thoroughly trashed but the +5 defender should have been fine. Getting around to the reason why I posted this here rather than any of the subforums listed under the DMG section, when I informed the DM about this often overlooked rule, he was rather displeased and asked why creatures would have Improved Sunder in the first place. He proceeded to whip up an odd house rule whereby a creature's DR/3 yields the effective enhancement bonus that it counts as for the purposes of sundering items (this is regardless of the type of DR so alignment-based DR applies just as readily as magic-based or material-based DR). That's his call as the DM and he believed that creatures should have a way of sundering the weapons and shields of PCs with their natural weapons. Oddly enough, he has extended this ability to manufactured weapons wielded by monsters (likely looking towards the extension of alignment subtypes to overcome DR even with manufactured weapons as per p. 308 of the 3.5 MM and again listed in the SRD). Reading through the section again, I noticed that creatures with magic-based DR do not extend their ability to override magic-based DR to manufactured weapons and I believe this to be a closer analogue to sundering items. My question is, is there an official ruling anywhere on this? I'd be interested to hear what it might be as I could not find a reference as to how creatures are supposed to sunder magical weapons and armour in any of the core rulebooks.
UZI 06-26-04, 08:02 AM	The errata fixes sundering. You no longer need an equal or greater enhancement bonus. Also, they clarified the inconsistency in how much additional hardness and HP each + of enhancement bonus adds to a weapon or shield.
The Nelluonkkar 06-26-04, 08:47 AM	Thanks for taking the time to answer the question. I've been looking around for one for a while and I completely forgot to check the errata. Being able to sunder an epic weapon with a non-magical weapon seems a little odd but so be it.
Ogre4Hire 06-26-04, 12:09 PM	It's possible to sunder a Holy Avenger with a non-magical club, but it'd be damned hard to pull it of. In the 3.5 switch, magic weapons now gain +2 Hardness and +10 HP per +1 enhancement, instead of the +1/+2 from 3.0. This means that typically, only large, powerful creatures like Giants and Titans will be able to sunder a PC's weapon. Also, Adamantine Weapons now ignore the Hardness of any object that has a Hardness of less than 20 (see the DMG for more details).