Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dracomortis 08-09-06, 10:51 AM	The Monster Manual says the crocodile is a Medium creature. However, it is described as being 11 to 12 feet long, putting it at Large size. Is this intentional, or is it an error?
JayceMD 08-09-06, 11:02 AM	Most of that length is tail, which doesn't really count for purposes of size category. The main body of the creature definitely falls in the medium category. Plus, the crocodile is much lower to the ground than other creatures, particularly those that are 12 feet long. I don't think it's unusual that they put the crocodile in the same category as a wolf or a pony.
Dracomortis 08-09-06, 11:08 AM	Ahh, that makes sense. Thanks.
cwslyclgh 08-09-06, 01:23 PM	indeed, tail length doesn't count when determining sizes for creatures.
Arvagor 08-09-06, 01:38 PM	Umm... Snakes? ;) Seriously, the tail should figure into it. If it (the tail) is beefy enough to deal 1d12+6 on a tail slap, one would think we count the tail... The Huge Viper is somewhere described as being akin to a King Cobra, yet it still takes up a 15' square, and one could argue that's all tail (and yes, I know physically speaking, a snake is not all tail -- but I'm guessing the average adventurer, or player, for that matter, would be hard-pressed to say where the "body" ends, and the tail begins). Methinks the croc needs a little more size lovin'... (Maybe it's one of the smaller crocodilians, like a caiman?)
Arvagor 08-09-06, 01:39 PM	Edit:[Double post]
steventirey1985 08-09-06, 02:14 PM	Umm... Snakes? ;) Seriously, the tail should figure into it. If it (the tail) is beefy enough to deal 1d12+6 on a tail slap, one would think we count the tail... The Huge Viper is somewhere described as being akin to a King Cobra, yet it still takes up a 15' square, and one could argue that's all tail (and yes, I know physically speaking, a snake is not all tail -- but I'm guessing the average adventurer, or player, for that matter, would be hard-pressed to say where the "body" ends, and the tail begins). Methinks the croc needs a little more size lovin'... (Maybe it's one of the smaller crocodilians, like a caiman?) We can't count the tail. If the tail was use in determining size, the creature would be large and the PCs would have to be occuping the same space as the croc in order to be hit by the tail. And the snakes take have a smaller space because their coiled up, or something like it.
Dracomortis 08-09-06, 02:21 PM	The Huge-sized giant crocodile is described as being around 20 feet in length. So, in order for it to be Huge size without counting the tail, its body needs to be 16 feet long (the minimum lenght for a quadrapedal Huge creature). This means its tail is constituting no more than 4 feet, or about 20%, of its total body length. Applying the same percentage to a regular crocodile, we find its body length to be around 9.6 feet, which is still Large size. Clearly, something is wrong here. So, the fix: Crocodile, Large Large Animal Hit Dice: 4d8+16 (34 hp) Initiative: +0 Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 30 ft. Armor Class: 14 (–1 size, +5 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 14 Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+12 Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d10+7) or tail slap +7 melee (1d12+7) Full Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d10+7) or tail slap +7 melee (1d12+7) Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Improved grab Special Qualities: Hold breath, low-light vision Saves: Fort +8, Ref +4, Will +2 Abilities: Str 21, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2 Skills: Hide +4*, Listen +4, Spot +4, Swim +13 Feats: Alertness, Skill Focus (Hide) Environment: Warm marshes Organization: Solitary or colony (6–11) Challenge Rating: 3 Treasure: None Alignment: Always neutral Advancement: 5–6 HD (Large) Level Adjustment: — The statistics presented here describe a large crocodile about 10-15 feet in length. The statistics in the Monster Manual describe a smaller crocodile such as the caiman. Combat Large crocodiles use the same tactics as their smaller cousins. Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a large crocodile must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, the crocodile establishes a hold on the opponent with its mouth and drags it into deep water, attempting to pin it to the bottom. Hold Breath (Ex): A large crocodile can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 4 x its Constitution score before it risks drowning. Skills: A large crocodile has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line. *A large crocodile gains a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks when in the water. Further, a large crocodile can lie in the water with only its eyes and nostrils showing, gaining a +10 cover bonus on Hide checks.
Dnjscott 08-09-06, 02:41 PM	Er, the CR seems a bit low at that point. CR 2 with 4 HD, a +7 to hit and as much as 1D12 + 7 to damage and a +12 to grapple? Can we say TPK when you're supposed to be draining 25% resources?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 08-10-06, 07:38 AM	Umm... Snakes? ;) Snakes have extremely short tails. On the largest ones, it's about a foot long.
Dracomortis 08-10-06, 10:52 AM	Er, the CR seems a bit low at that point. CR 2 with 4 HD, a +7 to hit and as much as 1D12 + 7 to damage and a +12 to grapple? Can we say TPK when you're supposed to be draining 25% resources? Ahahaha, I just had a wonderful image of a paladin getting the smack down from a crocodile. Upped the CR to 3, added in the treasure and alignment lines, and added the croc's hit points, which I somehow forgot.